Re: Bayonetta - Character hate in competitive play? An analysis

[SoccerStar9001]

Bouncing Fish had a knockback nerf.

That was the first balance patch, back in the good old 3DS days.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Ganondorf does terrible against Bayonetta.

Yeah well............

lt's the thought that counts? l don't know, but just the idea of the match up sounds super hype.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Cloud and Rosalina are the same way as well. Rosalina is the first puppeteer character in the series. And people ***** about Luma.

Cloud is the first to have a chargeable super. People complain they can't approach him charging.

Those two characters have some easybake shenanigans to begin with. They're equally easybake in 3 Minute Smash too because their power outputs aren't balanced well.

Though in Cloud's defense, he's meant to have burst damage problems. FWIW.

-

I need to provide my 2 cents on Bayonetta's shenanigans. I need to point out at the offset that I do agree she has some idiocy going on as is. However, I think people are generally thrown off about her in general anyway, because she certainly is rather different, or certainly as different as a fairly cliche character can be.

And yeah, I do have some problems with Bayonetta's mere inclusion to begin with, because she is rather unfitting for SSB, being family unfriendly in general. Heck, if you want a case of GCPTR (I'll let you guess what that's an abbreviation for) in Smash 4 thanks to her, go into Training Mode as Bayonetta, hold shield all the way to when it's about to break, don't move it, and see why if I were to play as Bayonetta and I run afoul of things like Earthbound recovery problems which I typically respond to with shielding to show I don't like what happened, I'd want to shift my shield to avoid looking offensive. Not helping is that feminist femme fetales who enjoy mocking males at all is a cliche at this point, and a frankly annoying one, let alone that it also irks me personally as well. Keep in mind that I have a fondness for Genki Girls. There's various reasons I have to like them.

So come Bayonetta's release and when I play against her, I'm awfully quick to discern her weaknesses and capitalize upon them. Witch Time reared its ugly head right in the first match too and it still didn't stop me, because it doesn't change that Bayonetta's rolls have too little range to outmaneuver things, nor could Witch Time be used in the middle of another move like anything else when Bayonetta is already freaking tall. In fact, the (relatively at least) low active duration makes WT vulnerable to double blind reading using thing like Pac-Man's smashes, even without WT's staling. The Bayonettas could get more sophisticated, but so could my anti-Bayonetta gameplay.

At the end of the day, while I'm still bugged by Bayonetta's personality, her general gameplay concept definitely checks out, and hey, she's a good antithesis to Pac-Man in terms of personality.

Here are my tips to dealing with Bayonetta in general:
http://pastebin.com/mPXvyvWq
I gathered them in annoyance with people claiming that Bayonetta has no weaknesses, as well as--hypocritically is where I get peeved--taking issue with her apparently ruining entire options like Z-Airs or Little Mac's KO Punch just with Witch Time. It's not sympathetic, of course, but I think it's a knee-jerk reaction to things like the 0-Deaths that actually are bothersome.

That brings me to my next point: the ladder. I think the ladder, the infamous known form of Bayonetta's 0-Deaths, is actually fitting for Bayonetta, who is supposed to be a combo character. It is, of course, a problem that Bayonetta can use it to 0/Low-Death everybody from Bowser and Ganondorf downwards, and I think that should be patched to be simply Fool's Mate stuff until significant percents where any kills from it stop being BS. However, even as is, I suspect the ladder is possible to reliably DI out of altogether, with this leading me to believe why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGNoVBOXYyk&t=45s
Despite what I talk about there, I hadn't even baited the 2nd ABK. I simply recognized on reaction that the "payonetta" player used it and I DIed away from Bayonetta. Lo and behold, I don't get hit by the Witch Twist followup the Bayonetta had no choice but to use for continuing the ladder because ABK has a limit of 2 uses before she has to return to the ground to be able to use it again. I am sure that baiting the 2nd ABK usage and then DIing it will deconstruct the ladder as a whole, because only Neutral and Back Air hit low, and both have overly inconvenient knockback angles.

I'm theorycrafting here as it stands, yes, but if I'm right with this general idea, it would make the ladder interesting to fight off, although naturally, I'd see a case for patching preventing the ladder from pulling its more brain-dead aspects, simply to encourage Bayonettas to show more variety, and I'd very much agree with anything that adds incentive for Bayonettas to use rolls with awareness of the clear-cut risks. I think really all that would be needed to balance Bayonetta would be the following:
-Check the hit detection for Side B and Up B due to suspect priority
-Damage and knockback tweaks, generally reductions, to Side B and Up B, both of which can pull annoyance outside the ladder anyway
-Somebody affected by Down B taking only 0.8x damage rather than the current 1.0x damage (I'd welcome 0.7x, honestly, but that could neuter Bayonetta's demand of thinking outside the box)
-Decreased regen for Down B and Bat Within to prevent their spam

And yes, I'm aware that Side B and Up B have a trait of ignoring Weight. Things like that are actually characteristic for Bayonetta in all her anti-patriarchy glory, although ignoring defense stats is something that should kept under control with sufficient drawbacks, because it's still anti-armor stuff, something Kingdom Rush remembered. Bayonetta still shouldn't lose something that is meant to mock chauvinists.

That's the thing: for all that she screams cliche, Bayonetta is incredibly different, and has the misfortune of lugging around legitimate balance problems to create a combination that makes a mess of things when people inevitably overreact. But when you think about it, her being female and damn proud of it has a lot of her gameplay make sense, what with combo friendliness, burst damage demands, expectations of thinking outside the box, and even having some defense ignoring ability. This causes the exaggerations of brokenness when the general populace wants hyper-aggressive gameplay, never mind that Ganondorf is capable of being fun enough to play as just because of his Mighty Glacier/Melee Tornado build's innate problem of needing to do something through clear disadvantage. Ganondorf isn't even fast at all, so it shows that speed is generally simply a quick way to try to create fun factor, and still needs supporting factors like counterbalancing weaknesses to avoid burnout.

My point is, people should cool it with wanting hyper-aggressive gameplay. I'll say that I'm a Squishy Wizard fellow and I do still advocate some offensive gameplay to keep any strategy and tactics tested, a key reason I would get into Battalion Wars to begin with. I'll also agree with the ladder at least needing to be patched. Even so, at the end of the day, we should try to at least see where the developers are coming from.

As a final bit of advice besides to try to be creative with anti-aggression traps, here's an RPS triangle to consider:
Burst surprises Pressure
Pressure walls DPS
DPS evades Burst

 

[BlackCephie]

No, i'm not implying that Bayonetta's gameplay centers around 0 to deaths. I am stating that it exists and needs to be taken out. I don't care about the combo game, I think Bayonetta can be a good comboer.

And as for "Don't actually exist" comment. Clearly
https://youtu.be/z3gwtYuYvow?t=28

It exists and is pretty disgusting to be honest.

I would argue that the 0 to deaths should stay as they are, and heres why: there is very simple counterplay to them. Im a damn good Bayonetta main, and I almost NEVER get a death ladder on someone for the stock, sometimes even when I get to execute the full combo. People DI out of them all the time, then they punish your landing. I think it should stay because I believe that EVERY character should hold some prominent threat that keeps players on their toes. Often times imbalance in fighting games come from the fact that certain characters have big threats and others dont. In this game, for example, Samus is bad because she doesnt have enough viable threats to contend with those characters that do for different reasons. I think more characters SHOULD be super good.

 

[Managomous]

I would argue that the 0 to deaths should stay as they are, and heres why: there is very simple counterplay to them. Im a damn good Bayonetta main, and I almost NEVER get a death ladder on someone for the stock, sometimes even when I get to execute the full combo. People DI out of them all the time, then they punish your landing. I think it should stay because I believe that EVERY character should hold some prominent threat that keeps players on their toes. Often times imbalance in fighting games come from the fact that certain characters have big threats and others dont. In this game, for example, Samus is bad because she doesnt have enough viable threats to contend with those characters that do for different reasons. I think more characters SHOULD be super good.

I agree, more characters SHOULD be super good. But...clearly there is quite a tier difference. Additionally, you're right, Bayo is good without the 0 to deaths. Therefore, it is not necessary in this game and only exists to punish individuals who mistakenly DI, who can't DI due to the 2 witch twist, or against newbies which can be pretty disheartening to lose to.

 

[BlackCephie]

I would argue that the 0 to deaths should stay as they are, and heres why: there is very simple counterplay to them. Im a damn good Bayonetta main, and I almost NEVER get a death ladder on someone for the stock, sometimes even when I get to execute the full combo. People DI out of them all the time, then they punish your landing. I think it should stay because I believe that EVERY character should hold some prominent threat that keeps players on their toes. Often times imbalance in fighting games come from the fact that certain characters have big threats and others dont. In this game, for example, Samus is bad because she doesnt have enough viable threats to contend with those characters that do for different reasons. I think more characters SHOULD be super good.

Heres the thing though. If you are a competitive player, Bayo should force you to DI correctly. You should do that. If you dont, you should pay dearly for it. If you are a newbie, you should STILL pay dearly for it. That said, if you are someone knowledgable enough to d-lad someone consistently, and they are inexperienced, then you should inform them of how to properly avoid it. Why would you want a cant-believe-its-straight-up-butter match in a game like this. Winning is fun. Fighting hard for that win is way more fun. The more recent the matches I see, the less I see Bayo players easily dominating people. Its not a big deal. Shes good. But truly, She aint THAT good.

 

[Managomous]

I'm just curious, what do people like about 0 to death combos? Both from a bayo perspective, and from an opponent perspective? And how is it "good" for the game?

I truly don't understand that personally. I think Bayo would still be good without them because of her combo game and obviously witch twist. Is 0 to death more toxic than good? How does it benefit the competitive scene of Smash 4? And would taking that aspect out, completely break bayo? That's the question I have.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I just think they're hype and fun to watch.

But I totally understand why its an issue, and I agree that it shouldnt be a thing, or at least not nearly as consistent.

 

[Floor]

I'm just curious, what do people like about 0 to death combos? Both from a bayo perspective, and from an opponent perspective? And how is it "good" for the game?

I truly don't understand that personally. I think Bayo would still be good without them because of her combo game and obviously witch twist. Is 0 to death more toxic than good? How does it benefit the competitive scene of Smash 4? And would taking that aspect out, completely break bayo? That's the question I have.

I completely agree. Smash is a game of skill and strategy, not the ability to watch a single combo video and invest 10 minutes into Bayonetta. Im not calling for a Bayonetta ban, but 0 to deaths ruin the overall experience of Smash for everyone. She's perfectly fine without them

 

[Flamegeyser]

So bayo needs some nerfs, eh? Well much as I hate to change her, it seems like it's gonna happen anyways. What do you think should be done, then? I can't think of a whole lot that wouldn't fundamentally destroy her, and especially nothing from this thread so far. How about some reduction in KBG for uair? That's something I could definitely imagine. Most 0-deaths require divekick, so maybe reduce the BKB or change the angle a bit.

I think I'd be fine with a uair nerf, because maybe it'd be better for comboing, but what do you guys propose?

 

[Ghidorah14]

https://twitter.com/thatsmash4moddr

Relevant.

Scroll down for nerfs.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Hey, they didn't nerf uair, bair, or nair, that's something to be thankful for!

 

[PK Gaming]

Hey, they didn't nerf uair, bair, or nair, that's something to be thankful for!

Exactly.

The nerfs are heavy but we can still keep going. Bayonetta is still better off than most of the characters in this game.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Hopefully people can stop disliking videos where Bayonetta wins.

 

[Furil]

I hacked in the nerfs to test them in action, and the it's pretty disheartening...

Witch twist is fairly easy to get out of with sdi. So much so that my friend who doesn't even understand how to do it properly can consistently escape. I can't seem to link much of anything together... even two afterburner kicks don't work after a certain percent.

The biggest thing for me, though, is divekick afterburner. It just doesn't do anything anymore. It's not a combo starter or finisher. It's just there... You can't link ANY moves out of it.
So basically, there doesn't seem to be any combo potential with her now.

She doesn't feel like combo character to me anymore, which is odd, but hey, maybe this is a premature reaction since technically the patch isn't even out yet.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I hacked in the nerfs to test them in action, and the it's pretty disheartening...

Witch twist is fairly easy to get out of with sdi. So much so that my friend who doesn't even understand how to do it properly can consistently escape. I can't seem to link much of anything together... even two afterburner kicks don't work after a certain percent.

The biggest thing for me, though, is divekick afterburner. It just doesn't do anything anymore. It's not a combo starter or finisher. It's just there... You can't link ANY moves a
So basically, there doesn't seem to be any combo potential with her now.

She doesn't feel like combo character to me anymore, which is odd, but hey, maybe this is a premature reaction since technically the patch isn't even out yet.

NO
****ING
WAY

 

[Quantumpen]

I've acquired the files, and all of her zero to deaths are gone. downward angled ABK doesn't combo at all at any percent. Her second Up. B has too much knockback to get anything out of even if they don't SDI out of it, and it's way easier to SDI out of it. Her fair was nerfed so the side-blastzone 9B combo doesn't work until high percents, and is pretty easily DI-able.

Bayo's combo game now is basically Witch Twist -> ABK -> Witch Twist or Witch Twist -> ABK -> Aerial and that's it.

 

[Masque]

I hacked in the nerfs to test them in action, and the it's pretty disheartening...

Witch twist is fairly easy to get out of with sdi. So much so that my friend who doesn't even understand how to do it properly can consistently escape. I can't seem to link much of anything together... even two afterburner kicks don't work after a certain percent.

The biggest thing for me, though, is divekick afterburner. It just doesn't do anything anymore. It's not a combo starter or finisher. It's just there... You can't link ANY moves out of it.
So basically, there doesn't seem to be any combo potential with her now.

She doesn't feel like combo character to me anymore, which is odd, but hey, maybe this is a premature reaction since technically the patch isn't even out yet.

Ugh, this is so sad. Talk about overkill.

 

[Ghidorah14]

So the combo-focused character cant do her combos anymore.

GG smash community.

 

[link2702]

So the combo-focused character cant do her combos anymore.

GG smash community.

hey, it's nintendo's/sakurai's fault for not thinking her through properly.

Smash4's physics just weren't designed with a heavy 0-death combo character like her in mind.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

hey, it's nintendo's/sakurai's fault for not thinking her through properly.

Smash4's physics just weren't designed with a heavy 0-death combo character like her in mind.

Note, Nintendo aren't invovled in making patches, Nacmo Bandai is.
Her 0 to death could be DIed too.

 

[link2702]

Note, Nintendo aren't invovled in making patches, Nacmo Bandai is.
Her 0 to death could be DIed too.

reliably and consistently DIing out of her combos/0-deaths everytime is far easier said than done, and in some cases just not realistically possible at all.

Regardless of who makes the patches, Namco bandai, or nintendo, they realized that they made bayo far too powerful with her combo game. Again, smash4's physics just weren't designed with such a heavy combo character in mind.

Anyway, this isn't the end of smash4's balance patches, and chances are good they're still experimenting on trying to make everyone viable while still unique. If this patch really does nerf bayo to ****, just wait and they might eventually give her some small buff's to help balance her out without making her flat out stupidly op'd again.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

jeez, we just wanted the diddy treatment, not destroying her to the point where i wish she wasnt even in smash.

 

[Managomous]

Lol....Destroying her? The patch isn't even out yet and people are overreacting. 0 to death was broken, and that has been fixed. Additionally, whoever officially stated that Bayo was supposed to be a combo heavy character? Just because she was initially released with fairly easy combos, that meant she was supposed to be a combo heavy character?

Additionally, with these nerfs, which I don't believe are extremely bad, I think this will give true Bayo mains, who weren't in it for the easy wins, to actually experiment and see what works vs what doesn't. I'll be curious to see what really comes out.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Additionally, whoever officially stated that Bayo was supposed to be a combo heavy character?

Massive Hero Soccer Guy said it in the final direct.

She combo was abolished, her framedata is still lackluster, she is probably not even high tier now.

 

[Managomous]

Massive Hero Soccer Guy said it in the final direct.

She combo was abolished, her framedata is still lackluster, she is probably not even high tier now.

Really? Had no idea. Still though, does she have no combos now? Or.... I think we really have to wait and see. I hope she still has a decent number.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Really? Had no idea. Still though, does she have no combos now? Or.... I think we really have to wait and see. I hope she still has a decent number.

They utterly broke 3 of her prime combo options and nerfed another one, so all she's left with is a rather bad neutral and no real way to get in. GG Namco, GG.

 

[Managomous]

Just gotta wait and see what develops from here. As with any patch, characters have to be reinvented in terms of the way they play. Whether it be a big change, or a little change. Too soon to say if she is now broken in reverse or not "viable" anymore. I seriously think people gt used to the way she was, and are calling it too soon.

 

[Columbidae]

a rather bad neutral

Her neutral isn't bad, you just need to utilize her other neutral tools like Bullet Climax more. Previously, you hardly needed to do that since dtilt and her other combo starters had very skewed risk-reward ratio and fishing for them worked mostly fine.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Her neutral isn't bad, you just need to utilize her other neutral tools like Bullet Climax more. Previously, you hardly needed to do that since dtilt and her other combo starters had very skewed risk-reward ratio and fishing for them worked mostly fine.

Bullet Climax is neutered by it's upward angle, meaning it's only good for charge release mindgames (which it still is, but that's not enough). Dtilt is alright, but almost every character has a faster option to beat it. Approaching from the air is safe if we space god damn perfectly, and not at all if we don't. It's also predictable. Her neutral's not the worst, but maybe like only C-B tier worthy.

 

[Rose alumna]

Sigh my main my main I'll still play you but I have to say nentendo might as well recall her and put in the char 2nd on the ballot list.
BUUUT AT THE SAME TOKEN (WHO EVER DID THE PATCH SENCE NONE OF US KNOW WHO ACTUALLY DID IT AND SAKURAI IS JUST A DIRECTOR HE GIVES THE YESSES AND NO NOS HE DOSENT ACTUALLY DO THE STUFF) they may change what they did so its not as meta changing but still effective.

 

[Quantumpen]

I've been playing with Bayo for two days now after the nerfs and I want to provide some context:

All her 0 to deaths are gone. It's just too easy to SDI out of the second up-b at any percent, the fair KB nerfs make it hard to kill with the side care combos at low %'s, you can SDI out of ABK side and avoid fair follow-ups, etc.

Her combo game is now something like witch-twist -> abk -> witch twist, or witch twist -> abk -> bair or uair, and that's kinda it.

However she's not bad, that's decent damage, witch twist is still super good as an OOS option, and she still has witch time for confirming kills/can get good kills off of her combos provides she catches someone high up with good positioning or they are ti kill percents from bair/uair (which confirm out of witch twist which is still stupid good)

She struggles with shield more because there is so little reward from her dive kick, but she's not a trash tier character. She'll probably still settle some-where in high tier, give people time to explore her. Her neutral is bad compared to like sheik, but it's not trash and she can wrack up damage well off of strong easy to land options. She has ways to get the kill but like most characters they require racking up damage first.

 

[Furil]

Yeah, I've been feeling the same way.
She no longer has that fluid synergy in her moveset that I've come to enjoy, but she's still not that bad overall. I've been almost exclusively killing with bair, though (edit: now that I think about it, that's how it's always been with me anyway, so no change here). Aside from the occasional witch time and random up air, of course. My friend (Ike main) still manages to SDI out of my witch twist constantly, so I've not been getting anything with it. Maybe he's just really good at it? Regular afterburner is still okay for the most part, but it makes "combos" really limited.

I'm just going to really miss the divekick... it was my favorite part of her moveset. It still baffles me that it is practically useless now. I guess it can be used for a somewhat safe landing option sometimes? I dunno.

But I'm remaining hopeful!

 

[Flamegeyser]

WTw has a thing now tho, we can react to whichever way they SDI. If they go up on WTw1, we can do it again, and if they SDI up again, we can triple jump uair. If they go behind, bair, if they go in front, fair, if they go down, I think fair still. And if nothing, free uair.

 

[Masque]

Additionally, whoever officially stated that Bayo was supposed to be a combo heavy character?

Sakurai himself, in the Final Smash Direct.

Sadly, combos like this are all a thing of the past.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Would it be possible to file a lawsuit against sakurai for false advertising?

lol.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

WTw has a thing now tho, we can react to whichever way they SDI. If they go up on WTw1, we can do it again, and if they SDI up again, we can triple jump uair. If they go behind, bair, if they go in front, fair, if they go down, I think fair still. And if nothing, free uair.

No, reacting to SDI and DI is extremely hard and the triple jump only works if you instantly Witch Twist a frame after jumping so you can't catch them without burning up the second jump and it is possible that they can airdodge or DI away.

 

[Flamegeyser]

No, reacting to SDI and DI is extremely hard and the triple jump only works if you instantly Witch Twist a frame after jumping so you can't catch them without burning up the second jump and it is possible that they can airdodge or DI away.

Triple jump ain't that hard, I've practiced it myself, and with the speed it's done it'll still catch SDI up. I don't know about SDI reactions tho, you might be right in that they're much harder than I think, but as far as I can see it's all we got.

 

[crwys]

I haven't logged into Smashboards in years but seriously anyone who plays Bayonetta is a straight pu$$y. Spamming the same obvious combo OP attack that keeps you in the air forever. I still beat her but god damn so annoying and just makes me not want to play anyone who plays Bayo. Prolly suicide and block that person. I've played some people who are actually GOOD at the game and don't need some OVER POWERED character to win or be better than they actaully are. Its also pretty obvious if your only main is Bayo or your best main. I hardly come accross Bayonetta players thank ****ing god.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Bayonetta really angers me. I was just in a bracket, around the 6-8th best there. My seeding was terrible and I was against the guy who would win the entire tournament. Usually this would be fine. There was no losers bracket, but I could play friendlies afterward, maybe go 1-2. But this guy was the Captain Zack type. Really bad, like June Captian Zack. This guy just embarrassed me with unpunishable options. Every move seemed to have no lag, and I was being outspaced all over the place. It looked like he was just goofing off though! He was smiling, laughing, even talking the whole time! And he was playing like a 10 year old, with the trademark Up B ABK ABK Up B up air. And every single damn time I could get an opening, he would witch time it, and charge Upsmash, killing me at 75. I have been putting in the time with my Fox for a long time. I knew my options, but the ground control was dominated by ABK, and any dash attack seemed to be witch time. Any punish resulted in ~35% damage. And the fact that he popped off after all this, despite going 0-2 and dealing a total of 88% over two games, made me realize that Bayo is not an honest character, and most Bayo mains know it, and still play her anyway.