Re: Bayonetta - Character hate in competitive play? An analysis

[Ghidorah14]

Check out Pink Fresh on the the youtube channel VGBootcamp. Would rarely get into GF, let alone win, picks up Bayo, then gets GF every time for like 4 times in a row. I actually learned a lot from watching him; he even beat the best meta knight player out there (tyrant) with her.

Ever stop to think that maybe he just finally found a character that suited his playstyle?

I'm crap with sheik, but give me bowser and I'll take you on any day of the week.

 

[Quantumpen]

To be fair, I do doubt that these players winning these tournaments just because of bayonetta. It's too early, they're probably winning at this stage because people haven't learned the match up yet.

But 0 to deaths are bad and they have to go.

 

[Ghidorah14]

To be fair, I do doubt that these players winning these tournaments just because of bayonetta. It's too early, they're probably winning at this stage because people haven't learned the match up yet.

But 0 to deaths are bad and they have to go.

 

[Quantumpen]

Again, no. They're only escapable if the person DOING the combo fails to read your DI properly. It works for now, it'll work at medium skill levels. It's not the long term solution to the fact that if the Bayonetta player makes no mistakes, they are 0 to death combos.

 

[Ghidorah14]

See what I mean when I said I was way past done helping people?

You complain about her 0-death combos, I post a video showing how to escape the combos, and you just dismiss it.

I hope you get **** on by every bayonetta player you ever come across.

 

[Quantumpen]

Good job missing the point. The video you showed didn't show anything except how to get out of low-mid level Bayo players (who can't read DI's) combos. It actually doesn't matter how I or anyone else DOES against Bayonetta players who can't take full advantage of their characters capability.

No one needs your "help." Get over yourself, DIing is not hard and no one is enlightened by the concept -- especially not its most standard use case. People already DI these combos.

The issue is DIing isn't even a mix-up you can win with luck. DIing out only works because Bayo players haven't yet learned her combo theory. They will, and they'll wreck you no matter how you DI because she can just adjust her next move based on how you DI'd the last one.

So one more time just to make it clear what the problem is: At every step of those 0 to death combos, your DI can be observed and reacted to. A skilled player can respond to your DI and combo you to death. There is nothing you can do about it. Some players will reach that skill level -- and the fact that this can happen means the option needs to be nerfed.

If you can't see why it's a problem for a character to have a 0 to death option (no matter how difficult it is to pull off), then I suggest you actually think about what a fighting game is supposed to be, how they are structured, and why certain reliable conventions (like tying safety to reward explicitly, damage scaling specifically to prevent this, etc) have been adopted and embraced by every major developer of competitive games.

It doesn't matter how you or I do against average Bayo players. What matters here is character potential and the impact such on option has on the health of the game when the game has been stretched to it's potential. In the hands of a player like Nairo, who WILL learn to read DI and will take stocks off of one confirm no matter how they DI, such a combo craps on the concept of a well designed fighting game: Emphasis on neutral, risk/reward balance, keeping the players playing, making decisions and mistakes. That's the reason it has to go.

 

[atticusfinch7]

See what I mean when I said I was way past done helping people?

You complain about her 0-death combos, I post a video showing how to escape the combos, and you just dismiss it.

I hope you get **** on by every bayonetta player you ever come across.

Good luck DI'ing those combos if you're any character with big hurtboxes.

 

[Ghidorah14]

wall of text

Hey man, look at it this way...

She's only $5.99.


In case you cant tell, I really dont care enough to sit here and argue with you. All this time spent complaining is time not spent learning how to deal with her. You dont wanna get 0-death'd? Then you better get to work and figure it out. I'm not gonna do it for you, because I'm not the one with the problem.

 

[Quantumpen]

You're such a fool. I'm sorry you lack the basic language comprehension skills necessary to understand what I'm actually saying (Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I get zero to deathed... it rarely happens to me personally, but that is NOT the point)

Thankfully you and others who share your myopic perspective have no say in whether or not she gets balanced, and the people who do have proven they actually understand how a fighting game is supposed to work (With the recent meta-knight nerf). I'll enjoy your wall of complaining when 1.1.6 drops =)

 

[Ghidorah14]

I dont main bayo, so it doesnt matter to me. I just think it's funny how she's only been out a few months and we're already calling for drastic nerfs and even bans.

I dont wanna say git gud, but...ya know.

 

[Quantumpen]

Right, because we have to wait for months to know that an inescapable(with proper DI reactions) 0 to death combo off of a safe move needs to be nerfed.

git gud? Do you even hear yourself? That's your response to the bounty of well thought out arguments against these sorts of combos present throughout this thread? You think these kinds of puerile remarks help your case? Do you still think this discussion is about anyone being unable to DI a combo?

I'm not saying there's not an actual counter argument to the case folks have laid out against zero to death moves (I think I could win any such debate, but there probably are non-trivial objections rooted in principles of game design) but "git gud" is most certainly not one of them.

You're embarrassing yourself. I'm checking out of this particular conversation, if you want to actually discuss people's gripes and your reasoned counter arguments to their (totally legitimate) arguments against zero to death combos -- instead of claiming that debunked video somehow does so -- I'm happy to engage.

Otherwise, peace.

 

[Ghidorah14]

In my defense, I skipped over the vast majority of your post. If you wanna pat yourself on the back for writing a "bounty of well thought out arguments," then great, knock yourself out.

I'm just really tired of people who drone on and on about a problem but dont take a pro-active approach and attempt to solve it and just waste time complaining.

It honesty seems like thats all you were interested in; asserting your opinion as correct and then dipping out. You dont seem at all interested in actually trying to find a solution to this 0-death problem.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I dont main bayo, so it doesnt matter to me. I just think it's funny how she's only been out a few months and we're already calling for drastic nerfs and even bans.

I dont wanna say git gud, but...ya know.

Becuase like ICs in both games (mostly Brawl), she's only good because of one broken thing. A 5 frame counter that's immune to grabs and instead of being a normal counter slows down the opponent and can always lead to a kill off the top if the player is competent. She makes you play the neutral in an entirely different way relying almost entirely off of grabs and projectiles. Aerials and moves that are usually safe on shield aren't safe at all because if she reads it its death no matter WHAT percent you're at. I mean sure, if they just made the duration scale with damage then it would be a lot more balanced, you wouldn't die because you hit her with a jab at 3% by the ledge (forgive me I'm salty).

Personally I don't think shes a top tier, I feel like she's an anti-top tier. She loses or goes even with zoners and grapplers like Link and Charizard but does amazing against the rush downs like Fox and MK. Her mechanics slow down top level play and makes it boring to watch. She's balanced at low level play but quickly becomes unbalanced in high level play because of the different kinds of characters used

 

[FlackoFever]

MESSAGE!!

 

[Zalezus]

People making the "adapt" argument are being silly -- that is no solution to incredibly imbalanced risk/reward ratios, adapting goes both ways. If you can throw out a safe move over and over and potentially confirm a kill off it while the fast majority of other players cannot do so, then that option is overpowered and it should be nerfed. Other characters shouldn't be "buffed" to compensate -- the mere existence of such an option is unhealthy for the game because you get less time to play your character.

Healthy games live in neutral, where the reward offered by an option is proportionally to how unsafe the option is. Characters should never have zero to death combos off of safe moves, no exceptions. They shouldn't be possible. I mean look how other good fighters are balanced -- If I land a CH move with super slow lag, I should get to style on you for a while. I had to predict something and punish it, I deserve a nice reward (probably not to 0 to death you though...) and if I'd missed that option then you could blow me up too. You can throw out jabs, but the damage scaling will be nuts and you won't get NEARLY as much from opening up the other player. This forces intelligent use of ones buttons and keeps the game where it belongs -- between the TWO PLAYERS. A match should never look like a single combo video where a single mistake means the match.

This is why healthy games don't have infinites, 0 to deaths, or any other jank crap. It's why game companies who see their games as competitive routinely try to patch that crap out of the game. They understand game balance better than you do. Sure, Bayo's 0-to-deaths can be DI'd, but it's only a matter of time before people master her and learn to read the DI -- and then that will be an overpowered option. Something being hard to do has nothing to do with whether it's overpowerd -- there will always be players who master even the most absurdly difficult of techniques.

Her 0 to deaths, along with any other 0 to deaths in the game should be removed and I'm astounded anyone would argue to the contrary. I almost guarantee you they'll be gone in 1.1.6. They'll make them good for dealing damage but decrease the carry or modify the angle so you fall out before the kill.

I used to play World of Warcraft and the community there had the same kind of entitled response to patches, bosses, and items. The funny thing is that the longer a certain meta lived the better options within it were explored and countered; earlier obvious optimization strats fell to the wayside as unsustainable but undeniably glass cannon.

My take? Smash is too dynamic to just add characters and NOT make waves. Of course there's going to be chaos for a bit because at the end of the day the game is no longer the same game you've played for years.The problem with gaming today is that updates and online interactions make it all to easy to just say "get rid of this mechanic which I am not familiar or comfortable with". This ain't even supposed to be a competitive game and even if Nintendo got behind that idea, it makes sense that this new thing is a counter to what appeared to be the old dominating force

I imagine you've all accepted the Shiek dominance? Or maybe accepted that Zero is a really good player? Or whatever the argument, I can apply what you're saying to pre and mid DLC Shiek, but that would too telling wouldn't it.

Everyone just got better. Everyone got smarter about not only their options, but the numerous safe options of their opponent.

 

[Zalezus]

MESSAGE!!

They aren't ready to be spoon fed this info.

 

[blackghost]

Check out Pink Fresh on the the youtube channel VGBootcamp. Would rarely get into GF, let alone win, picks up Bayo, then gets GF every time for like 4 times in a row. I actually learned a lot from watching him; he even beat the best meta knight player out there (tyrant) with her.

you mean as a lucas player he was self restricting and then once he had a chaarcter that rewarded him he started to do well. pink fresh was an amazing brawl lucas too guess what that won him?

 

[Managomous]

Regardless if a 0 to death is escapable, what is the actual percentage that people will escape?

The fact that it actually even EXISTS, where no other character has it, do you really believe that was intentional? Do you really believe 0 to death is something that is meant to encourage people to play a FIGHTING game? Why not make a fighting game, where if you press one button, your character automatically wins? And no other character has that option? (Ok, I am exaggerating, but seriously?)

You cannot escape the 0 to death 100% of the time. Therefore, you will more than likely lose a life, due to this 0 to death. 0 to death people. Not gimping. Not foot-stooling (Which actually is a harder chance to get), but 0 to death.

Seriously.

 

[Quantumpen]

I used to play World of Warcraft and the community there had the same kind of entitled response to patches, bosses, and items. The funny thing is that the longer a certain meta lived the better options within it were explored and countered; earlier obvious optimization strats fell to the wayside as unsustainable but undeniably glass cannon.

My take? Smash is too dynamic to just add characters and NOT make waves. Of course there's going to be chaos for a bit because at the end of the day the game is no longer the same game you've played for years.The problem with gaming today is that updates and online interactions make it all to easy to just say "get rid of this mechanic which I am not familiar or comfortable with". This ain't even supposed to be a competitive game and even if Nintendo got behind that idea, it makes sense that this new thing is a counter to what appeared to be the old dominating force

I imagine you've all accepted the Shiek dominance? Or maybe accepted that Zero is a really good player? Or whatever the argument, I can apply what you're saying to pre and mid DLC Shiek, but that would too telling wouldn't it.

Everyone just got better. Everyone got smarter about not only their options, but the numerous safe options of their opponent.

Yeah, so expecting developers to support their game is not "entitlement." I've been a professional software engineer for many years and the number of versions I've developed of the same products tweaked to user preference is uncountable.

Also what are you talking about? WoW is constantly patched Like they nerf/hotfix classes for PvP every patch and they've been attempting for ages to figure how to simultaneously balance classes for PvE and PvP. When the game was young so many specs were completely unviable in both contexts -- you'd get yelled at or rejected for playing them. Blizzard that that was a problem (which it was), so they redesigned the specs with balance in mind over and over and over...

Anyway, I'm not arguing against the introduction of new mechanics. There are a number of new powerful options in the cast which are fine as long as the risk/reward of those options make sense. My issue is specifically with 0 to death combos, no matter who has them. They're not good for the health of a fighting game for all the reasons I've outlined (which no one has actually addressed)

Let's not pretend like people are just upset because they lose to Bayo or haven't figured her out yet. There are specific things about her which are problematic - 0 to death combos that won't be DI-able once Bayo players learn their combo theory. Such an option being in the game is unhealthy for the game, over-centralizing for the meta for the specific reasons I outlined in this thread.

It's just like classes being unbalanced in WoW to the point that only one spec per class was even allowed to be used in groups. If you wanted to play a prot pally in Vanilla -- LOL. Why do you think Blizzard changed that through buffs/nerfs? The same thing can happen in fighting games. It's better for more of the cast to be viable than less, it's better for more of the game to take place in neutral and for punishment to related to the risk of the opening you gained. There are real fundamental design problems with things like 0 to death combos.

Every major eSports game gets balance patches because the eSports community knows they are necessary for the health and longevity of the game. For other fighters what do these balance patches usually consist of? Scaling down of high damage combos off of safe moves, removal of infinites, 0 to deaths, etc.

I'm all for her stair case mechanic or even witch time, but you can't just throw principles of sound competitive game design out the window for the sake of novelty/diversity. Keep the mechanics, tune the reward.

 

[Amiracle]

I think knowing which moves turn into which combos goes a long ways when fighting bayonetta. She has powerful combos but they're very very situational. A 0-death combo might Connect at 0 percent but at 20 percent it no longer does.

A good bayonetta player knows which combos to use at what time. If you as an an opponent know which combos she can utilize, you can start to DI or even completely nullify her ability to combo

 

[Big-Cat]

Again, no. They're only escapable if the person DOING the combo fails to read your DI properly. It works for now, it'll work at medium skill levels. It's not the long term solution to the fact that if the Bayonetta player makes no mistakes, they are 0 to death combos.

Ok I have had it up to here. I don't get care if I get infracted. Why? Because I can bet there are mods that share my thoughts and perhaps high level players.

You guys are some of the most pathetic scrubs I have ever encountered in a fighting game community. Saying it'll only work up to mid level is completely undermining human error. If this was the case, Abel, El Fuerte, and C. Viper would have been banned on the spot if the Strret Foghter community had as many holes in their theories as the Smash community.

Why would have they been banned under stupid Smash standards? It just takes one knockdown to get caught in their infamous vortexes. Guess wrong and you're back down. Rinse and repeat until KO. Sounds an awful like Bayonetta's combos, no? THAT IS BECAUSE IT IS THE SAME ****ING CONCEPT!

Bayonetta's combos aren't even combos except at early percentages. The reason is DI. Unless the knock back is small enough where DI is irrelevant then there are no true combos period.

Anyway, back to human error. You can't train to reduce human error. The fact it exists means you can't reduce it. The only thing you can do is make EDUCATED GUESSES. That's right, but you can still makes mistakes. That's what Bayonetta fights against in her combos. If the opponent is too dumb or just plain predictable then Gamorrah gets a snack.

So don't go harping about how this is only up to mid level. You have no idea how volatile mixups are.

 

[Quantumpen]

It's not a "mix-up" because you can watch how the player DI's WHILE the moves animation is executing and react. It's just called learning how to do the combo's against DI. The fact that you can't actually present a reasoned counter argument have to result to personal insults is proof enough that you've lost.

If Bayonetta's zero to death combos remain in the game the game will suffer. People will learn how to do the combos against different types of DI reactively. It's not that hard -- I'm an average player at best and if I get such an opening I can follow their DI like 70% of the time if I'm familiar with that character's weight.

You are wrong. There is such a thing as "broken", broken things have a negative impact on the metagame, and they should be patched. End of story. Bayo's zero to deaths will be broken after players have learned to follow DI -- IT IS NOT A MIX-UP

 

[Big-Cat]

The only way it's not a mixup is if DI is irrelevant yet you say they will be broken once DI is followed. Does that mean then if Bayonetta goes the wrong way then she whiffs? There's at least three DI paths to consider for every attack.

So that means 2/3 chances to go in the wrong direction, right?

 

[Managomous]

It's not a "mix-up" because you can watch how the player DI's WHILE the moves animation is executing and react. It's just called learning how to do the combo's against DI. The fact that you can't actually present a reasoned counter argument have to result to personal insults is proof enough that you've lost.

If Bayonetta's zero to death combos remain in the game the game will suffer. People will learn how to do the combos against different types of DI reactively. It's not that hard -- I'm an average player at best and if I get such an opening I can follow their DI like 70% of the time if I'm familiar with that character's weight.

You are wrong. There is such a thing as "broken", broken things have a negative impact on the metagame, and they should be patched. End of story. Bayo's zero to deaths will be broken after players have learned to follow DI -- IT IS NOT A MIX-UP

I concur. There is one thing I want to clear up.

Nobody is saying Bayonetta as a whole is broken. Nobody is saying that Bayonetta is unbeatable. Nobody is saying 0 to death will happen 100% of the time. Bayonetta has her share of weaknesses, and Bayonetta can be beat. Nobody is trying to argue against that.

But the philosophy of 0 to death, and trying to reason that a concept such as that is not broken when 90% of the cast do not have such an option, and when it is successful, it's a complete stock, is beyond me. Unlike Melee, concepts such as this can be fixed which I believe is the purpose of actively "Patching" a game. If it's not to balance the game, then it's to "fix" concepts which were not intended. I can't say whether this was intended or not, but considering the rest of the cast and the utilities they have, as well as, the previous patches that have been passed to nerf certain things (Adding knockback to certain hits which led to killer combos) I would imagine that the developers did not intend on this.

 

[TTTTTsd]

How in tf is it not a DI mixup if they can guess wrong?

Mix-ups are meant to be reacted to if they get linear, if they weren't they wouldn't be a mixup at all, it'd just be a win/escape button which would adversely defeat the purpose.

I have issues with Bayonetta for entirely different reasons that aren't 0-deaths that I would be more than happy to explain (I don't care about her combos at all, actually) but holy **** this thread is really something else.

I just never thought I'd ever read "It's not a mix-up if it can be reacted to" in my life, why in the HELL are overheads in fighting games then? They all have slow start up so clearly they're not good mixup tools at all.

 

[Quantumpen]

How in tf is it not a DI mixup if they can guess wrong?

Mix-ups are meant to be reacted to if they get linear, if they weren't they wouldn't be a mixup at all, it'd just be a win/escape button which would adversely defeat the purpose.

I have issues with Bayonetta for entirely different reasons that aren't 0-deaths that I would be more than happy to explain (I don't care about her combos at all, actually) but holy **** this thread is really something else.

I just never thought I'd ever read "It's not a mix-up if it can be reacted to" in my life, why in the HELL are overheads in fighting games then? They all have slow start up so clearly they're not good mixup tools at all.

That's not an argument. It's not a mix-up because mix-ups are initiators that break neutral and enter the disadvantaged state. Overheads in fighting games are a way to get you to get through your guard, as are throws. The defining characteristic of a mix-up is that there is a correct sequence of actions that can be taken by the defending player which will end with them taking no damage.

The difference here is two fold: You are already disadvantaged, and they don't "guess" your DI, they just watch where your character goes and do the next part of the combo -- you don't have a correct answer (like guard high) and your options are restricted because you are already in the disadvantaged state. There is no option you have that will 100% prevent you from taking that damage -- if you blocked high when you should have blocked low -- you have made a mistake and you'll be punished -- usually based on how hard the move was to block (what it's start up time was)

Here, what is the correct response? Hope your opponent isn't good enough to watch where your character is going after like 2 second witch-twist move and pick the option to follow up? The defensive player doesn't have that choice here. they DI and then AFTER they have chosen their response, the offensive player just does the right move and they get hit -- no matter what choice they made.

This is more akin to say, learning to do combos against characters of different weight in GGXX by reacting to their position instead of just relying on muscle memory. Once players have gotten good at this then DIing will be useless, that's why it's not a mix-up.

I advise you to go actually try what I'm suggesting. Get a friend and see how easy it is to actually just follow what every DI they choose and get the right option.

I am not arguing that Bayo as an overall character is broken. I think having these combos will negatively affect the metagame -- but I don't know that yet. I am arguing against the concept of zero to death moves, infinites, etc from the perspective of ideal fighting game design.

 

[Ghidorah14]

That's not an argument. It's not a mix-up because mix-ups are initiators that break neutral and enter the disadvantaged state. Overheads in fighting games are a way to get you to get through your guard, as are throws. The defining characteristic of a mix-up is that there is a correct sequence of actions that can be taken by the defending player which will end with them taking no damage.

No.

A mix-up is literally a 50/50 guessing game. You get two options; pick wrong, you get hit.

An overhead is meant to hit crouch-guarding opponents. They dont get through standing-guard.

 

[Big-Cat]

Hope your opponent isn't good enough to watch where your character is going after like 2 second witch-twist move and pick the option to follow up?

Human beings do not have the capability to go off of reaction, analyze, and make a decision in an incredibly narrow time frame. Reaction time is around 12f hence why all overheads in fighting games never go below this number. We're not computers that can make this decision in less than 1/60th of a second.

 

[Quantumpen]

No.

A mix-up is literally a 50/50 guessing game. You get two options; pick wrong, you get hit.

An overhead is meant to hit crouch-guarding opponents. They dont get through standing-guard.

That's getting through your guard. In most 2D fighters overheads beat crouching guard, standing guard loses to crouching attacks. But there is a sequence of correct inputs (i.e, you can block overheads) which will 100% result in you not taking damage.

Don't patronize, I'm well aware of what a mix-up is.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's patronize.

Seriously, are you that ignorant of human error and that most of the time you have to PREDICT mixups?

 

[Quantumpen]

Yes, and the fact that you don't have to do that to correctly follow DI during bayonetta's combos (along with there not existing a perfect sequence of inputs the defending player can make) is the reason it's not a mix-up.

I'm not claiming there is no human error in fighting games, it's the only reason anyone ever gets opened up -- stop dodging the actual argument. Bayonetta's combos are not mix-ups because there is no perfect series of inputs the defending player can enter which will 100% avoid the defending player taking damage. In competitive fighting games, this sequence of inputs always exists for the defending player and that's what makes it a mix-up.

That is not the case here. You have to commit to a DI option to early, the opponent can adjust their next move (very easily) to follow that option, and you'll die. If you don't they dropped the combo, you didn't "win the mix-up". They can't actually make a sequence of decisions which independent of the decisions you make, end with them not taking damage.

A mix-up requires the the defending player to have a perfect answer irrespective of what the offensive player does-- just for that perfect answer to be difficult enough that they can't consistently get it due to human error. If that's not the case (which it isn't here) -- then it's not a mix-up. It's just the defending player having some option to force the offensive player (who is in full control in this situation) to learn how to properly combo given a trajectory change. It's effectively just like making the combo a little harder to do executionally. We aren't talking about small frame windows here. A person can definitely watch during a witch twist where the opponent is going to see where they DI'd, and then do the next move in the flow chart conditional upon them doing that thing. The defensive player doesn't actually have a theoretical winning option here.

 

[pikazz]

I love that many are super angry over the fact she has a Deathcombo. but guess 3 things:

1. its NOT guaranteed. you can DI and SmashDI out of it. if you SmashDI out of it you will get really low of Damage and escape it all together while normal DI can screw up her pattern.

lets say I using her dABK -> dABK -> UpB -> UpB with UAir as Finisher, you can DI away from the first dABK so the dABK can miss more easily while between dABK to UpB is guaranteed with no/Bad DI and you need to put a weakhit FAir1 to be able to link it further on good DI. even the FAir can **** up there you get the stronghit and you will flew further away for the combot to hit.
same thing about UpB to UpB except Bayonetta has to JUMP and do a FAir1 to connect on good DI. she can do FAir2 as the weakhit is always weak, but the combo will NOT be guaranteed on FAir2 and you can airdodge/3fNAir in between.

but the Biggest hole you can escape is between second UpB and UAir when you have good DI! if you are on right side of her, the UAir will NEVER be true combo at low% so its possible to both Airdodge or land a quick escape or even a F1 attack (jigglypuff gif were sent here earlier) and it can even hit you so far so the UAir will not be able to connect you AT ALL! she can do FAirs which is most likely guaranteed but it will still not kill you at the blastzone when DI properly.

2. many of her death combos does NOT kill at 0% on the ground of Final Destination and I am using the BnB combo I said earlier.
it do work on Lightweight at 0% while Medium optimal damage is 20 and fastfallers/heavies is optimal at 40%.
guess what characters that could to Deathcombos at 20%? Metaknight.
guess what Character that could to deathcombos at 60%? ZSS.
guess what character that could to a "death"combo at lower % with platforms? Mario (UTilt, UAirs and UpB with help of platforms).

here is why Metaknight and ZSS got nerfed for their combos: they are so hard to DI from.
with Bayonettas Death Combos, you can DI from the more easily than from the others as Bayonetta cant space and "follow" the opponents as she does the attacks (UpB is straight up and dABK launches her Upwards and you will only be able to move almost at the peak of the "jump") while the others can do a UAir attack and move the same time to follow DI

3. for Bayonetta to be good against high level play, she need to MIXUP with her combos! if she is using her same combos over and over again, the opponent will easy just proper DI each and everytime and thats a pain in the ass for Bayonetta!
without an Gimp and Hard Read (Smashes, Witch time and correct BAir hit), she cant kill if the opponent still DIing out of her combos and many of her combos do end after 100-130% depending on size and weight.
trust me, against a defensive character that is at killrange but nolonger in combo range, she will have a hard time to kill


tl:tr version: please learn her and see what weaknesses she has instead for bashing on her with minimun knowledge.
git gud

 

[TheGoodGuava]

After going through Twitter, Reddit, /ssbg/, this forum, Youtube, and other various places I've noticed a few patterns. 99% of the time the only people who say the character isn't broken are Bayonetta mains.

The other being that you have to play the matchup completely differently than a normal Smash game, you also have to play super defensively no matter how big of an advantage you have at the moment. What I think makes this character "broken" is that she has the best disadvantage state in the game. She has good burst movement to get her out of juggles, she has a frame 4 combo breaker, and she has witch time. The frame 4 combo breaker is pretty much a guaranteed 25 - 40% or death unless you have a move that allows you have a frame 1 combo breaker that allows you to escape her ****, that's already amazing. What makes it ridiculous however is her counter. 11 frames of intangibility starting on frame 5 with a mechanic that stops you from effectively punishing it with anything but a grab afterwards while also almost always leading to death.

TL;DR when Bayonetta is on the defensive, everyone is on the defensive. But when shes on the offensive, you're halfway to kill percent or dead. This basically forces you to play most of the match in the neutral (the only area shes lacking in) until you can get a guaranteed followup from a grab/projectile, use a killthrow, or edgeguard her with a select few characters. Shes the anti-top tier

 

[Quantumpen]

Same nonsense argument.Yeah you can DI her combos, but they ARE easy to follow. That's not even the only problem with her -- but in general 0 to death combos (or their equivalents in other fighting games) are always bad, no exceptions, and have no place in balanced fighting games. Stop acting like you can get out of her combos by DIing in a particular direction reliably, or even my switching up the DI. A good opponent can follow you -- you're being disingenuous by claiming otherwise or pretending this is remotely the same as a blocking mix-up in a traditional fighter.

The fact that she can witch time any move and kill you off of it irrespective of the actual risk present in the move is also ridiculous -- effectively it gives her more 0 to death combos off of like -- correctly reacting to your jab or a random aerial? How can you not think that's ridiculous. Again, it's a problem that risk-reward. ss. Bayo all moves become high risk -- while most of her moves that are extremely high reward actually are safe or punishable by like, a grab? Other characters don't have this absurd punishes.

Sure you can play around it -- but that goes both ways -- and that is why "adapt/play around it" is not a counter-argument. That's why tiers exist, that's why balance patches exist, if someone has better tools and gets more off their options than you, then "outplaying" them is an idiotic solution. It'll work if you're better than your opponent, but if you're close in skill level, whelp, that'll be all she wrote.

 

[pikazz]

I could say you said same nonsense argument too. her 0 to death combos are both easier to avoid and DI out of than Metaknights UAirs deathcombo and ZSS Deathcombo.

witch time is kinda op but its now nerfed so she cant spam it. just like an normal counter, just charge your Smash attack if you predict Witch time, its not really that hard

 

[Gemzelda_ss]

We should make a list on how to beat bayo ill start
-ABK (upwards in the air) to ABK isn't a true combo in low/mid percents
tip: use a counter or use any move that comes out faster than 10 frames (i believe)
IF you didn't know this that means that u didnt even take the time to study her weaknesses, which you should because she has a lot of them that most top players don't exploit.

 

[Ax^2]

Omg this argument is giving me cancer....


Does Bayo suck and make my day a trainwreck? Yes.

Why? Because she's a damn character with SOME crazy good combos and options, a sweep kick that beats out 90% of moves, and her hit boxes in general... yeah, thats right.... all her moves are op as s**t. Even her taunt. Friggin killed me at 2% near the ledge. And she can even shield cancel it yoooo...

Why do i think this? Because she's making me WORK FOR THE KILL NOW OMG WOW THIS IS AMAZING. I have to turn on my BRAIN ohhhhhh.... and it sucks. Welp.



P.s. If you took this post seriously by now, dude calm down. Im going to be real now tho.





Do i think she should get nerfed. nah. (At least not now)

Why? Because as much as i hate her ( i really do she does have 0 to death combos that are for the most part practically inescapable... no dont gimme that "DI" crap. 9 times outta 10 it doesnt work. ), I encourage everyone i train with to just out right get me rekt with her so I can understand more and more how to beat her. This is the only character in the game atm that forces you to assess every move you make and makes you think ahead (used to be shiek but she got nerfed hard lol). She really does get your brain cells revved up. You think witch time to up smash is a kill confirm when you're in the air? If you manage to get out an aerial with a strong hitbox that covers your character (like sonics early nair), it gets negated. It gets more and more clear each time I die, each time I get up, each time I die again. It will be only a matter of time until I understand how to beat her, and get my revenge.

Over.
And over.
And over again.
n.o. m.e.r.c.y...

But enough of this lets see what ZeRo thinks lol

https://youtu.be/Gilsv3c4-7I

 

[Quantumpen]

Yeah I guess ZeRo's just a scrub right? He needs to git gud...

If there are patches, then there should be more nerfs. If there are no more patches, then we have to deal with a broken character who hurts the game. We'll deal with it, no one is "refusing to learn the matchup."

Just don't pretend like there is "nothing wrong" with the character.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nah he just addressed the problem properly in the same way I would.

The big issue he outlined was the one nobody in here talked about outside of like maybe 2 people because everyone was focused on how you die at 0% (which is a thing Meta Knight could do before off of burst mobility and a slippery neutral) ZeRo broke it down into the big thing for me quite early on before he even talked about 0 to deaths

Low risk, high reward.

That is my entire problem with this character, not dying early, not dying late, not dying before dinner's ready, it's how low risk she is. If it was like Meta Knight where there was risk involved (he is the ultimate whiff punish, well, WAS the ultimate whiff punish char) then I wouldn't have an issue but I feel like this thread would exist anyways. The problem is she's not linear and she's also incredibly safe. I noticed that the entire video was talking about HOW SAFE HER THINGS CAN BE more than dying at 0% or whatever because that's not foreign to Smash 4 because Meta Knight was a thing.

 

[Quantumpen]

Nah, death combos are still a problem (They are always a problem.. .that's why they're always patched out) and part of the issue with why she's so high-reward -- which he also mentioned numerous times throughout the video.
(If you get witch-timed, hit with up-b, etc -- you're going to die. If she couldn't kill you off of it, it'd be fine -- hell if she could only kill you at high percents, or if you through out an unsafe move and she countered it it'd be fine...).

He specifically discusses how easy it is to react/follow DI and dismisses the entire counter argument people have been failing at making throughout this thread. He then explicitly states that a large part of the problem is that you can be killed off of nearly anything (Because of the above). It's both her low risk AND her high reward that make her ridiculous like you said -- but the death combos are a big part of the reward side of the equation