Re: Bayonetta - Character hate in competitive play? An analysis

[Captain Farukon]

There is no hate in this, Bayonette is just a "pay to win" character, she´s as broken as rugal(kof), Ogre(tekken) and Gill(sf 3) to be allowed to play in tournaments, its clear that sakurai had no intention to make smash a competitive fighting game with a chracter like this besides nerfing a buffing characters every single update because he and his team didnt even cared to test each characters to see how they do and thus create a balanced fighing game

 

[Captain Farukon]

Lol how hasn't this thread been taken down yet? People say bayo is toxic to the game? **** like this is toxic to the game. Banning a character is lazy. Everyone who thinks she needs to be banned when she literally has ZERO results at a major need to pull their heads out of their *****. You don't ask for a ban on a brand new character when we literally have no idea what she is capable of. I'd be the first to propose a ban if she won every major and 50% of the players in every tourney were Bayonettas. But guess what, that hasn't happened yet. It probably won't either, because she is an outlier in smash and most people don't like how she plays. Contrary to popular belief she isn't actually easy to play either. Many inputs require frame perfect execution at high level play to get those combos that pink fresh and others get. Is she a good charachter? Of ****ing course shes good. Is she the best in the game? Maybe. But if we start banning the best character, when does it end. I personally found sheik toxic to play against, she could literally just camp you with needles in 1.14 and just wait till you could be 50/50'd. I disliked the character, but never asked for a ban. Know why? Because i'm not a ****ing child and I understand that the character has weaknesses and I would do my best to learn the matchup and exploit them instead of taking to social media sites and complaning.

Edit : I meant to post this in the other thread questioning whether she should be banned, my B.

banning a character is lazy? you need to learn something about competitive fighting games, in SF 2 Sagat had a soft ban and in SF2 X Akuma was completely, in the old KOF tournaments Omega Rugal was banned, Krizalid and Zero too, in SF3 Gill is banned , so no banning a character isnt lazy its necessary to keep the balance of the game

 

[Ghidorah14]

Yeah, lets ban the 2 month old character that hasnt won any majors.

Thats brilliant logic.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

There is no hate in this, Bayonette is just a "pay to win" character,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=foekGe69m58

 

[Red Stache]

Let me get this straight......

Pre-Patch Diddy:
People and top players were using him basically everywhere.
Despite the fact he had such easy combos and securing KOs, plus had results...
Diddy wasn't banned.

Pre-Patch Sheik:
After Diddy got nerfed, top players and others jumped on Sheik and then she was basically everywhere.
And despite what she had, and had results too...
She wasn't banned either.

Bayonetta:
She currently has great things she can do, but she is still very new, and she doesn't have the results to back up the things about her.

She is being banned in Spain and considered being banned by top players and others.


...

I'm sorry this makes no sense to me at all.

 

[blackghost]

There is no hate in this, Bayonette is just a "pay to win" character, she´s as broken as rugal(kof), Ogre(tekken) and Gill(sf 3) to be allowed to play in tournaments, its clear that sakurai had no intention to make smash a competitive fighting game with a chracter like this besides nerfing a buffing characters every single update because he and his team didnt even cared to test each characters to see how they do and thus create a balanced fighing game

sakurai and's team and thier decisions on nerfs and buffs have made plenty of sense. clearly they didn't destroy shiek as many people believed, they obviously didn't destroy diddy. they havent "killed" a single character despite immature voices asking them to. This belief that the balance team isnt doing a good job is ridiculous. zss "nerfed" wins the NEXT regional. cloud "nerfed" places everywhere in doubles and places high in singles.
Every character is pay to win. its a videogame. and if bayionetta is pay to win in a different sense she sure isn't a very good one. As she has at best dcent results with 4-5 players.your comparison to gill is absolutely offbase. she doesnt dominate games. we know that for sure already. Sakurai doesn't know how to make a balanced game? how many character wer ein top 16 at pound? that seems like balance to me especially considering the roster count in this game.

 

[Managomous]

sakurai and's team and thier decisions on nerfs and buffs have made plenty of sense.

,

False. Been 5+ patches and nothing has changed with Jigglypuff, despite how terribly bleh she is. I don't think that makes sense personally.

Let get this straight......

Pre-Patch Diddy:
People and top players were using him basically everywhere.
Despite the fact he had such easy combos and securing KOs, plus had results...
Diddy wasn't banned.

Pre-Patch Sheik:
After Diddy got nerfed, top players and others jumped on Sheik and then she was basically everywhere.
And despite what she had, and had results too...
She wasn't banned either.

Bayonetta:
She currently has great things she can do, but she is still very new, and she doesn't have the results to back up the things about her.

She is being banned in Spain and considered being banned by top players and others.


...

I'm sorry this makes no sense to me at all.

It isn't all about results, it's about extreme concepts that ultimately make the game unfair in certain circumstances. Again, not saying you can't beat Bayo, she has a lot of flaws and there are ways to do it. That's not the problem people have with Bayo (Please read over my first comment which I describe why people hate Bayo or characters in the past). However, concepts such as 0 to death, regardless if it's guaranteed or not, or being able to instantly kill with little risk, high reward, that's pretty much why people are hating.Again, everything does not center around results. And you could argue that "Past characters were hated on, but look at things now!". I don't know, perhaps it's a recent string of events, but I definitely have seen the most extreme hate lately. The community is having a very hardcore internal struggle (Well, a lot of communities), which has elevated to the point where I would say it's become toxic. Almost as toxic as the conflict that happened between Brawl and Melee back in the day. Things were a little bad, but now I see it elevating, all ever since the intro of Bayo.

Now again, people can blind themselves and say "It's because people need to just git gud, and learn to play", but the fact remains regardless of how you see it, when Mac was introduced, and when the other characters that were considered "Broken" were introduced, I would argue it did not get as EXTREME as it is now. Do I blame Bayonetta for all this? No, but the fact that it is extreme, I would argue it's due to these concepts such as 0 to death, which are contributing to a great manner of it.

Yes Shiek has the most results, and perhaps it makes sense to hate on Sheik. But you know, I don't see Sheik juggling anyone completely off the stage to death. Yes, it might set them up in a bad position, where they will potentially die. But seriously juggling someone to the point where their character dies, I think that leaves a terrible taste in people's mouths, regardless if you can do something about it. And you can argue (Well MK has a combo just like that and nobody complains as hard), but again, there seems to be this thing where, difficulty to execute balances out the hate for things like that. (Melee has 0 to death combos, but nobody hates on them because of how hard it is to execute them is an example. Unlike Wobbles, which is extremely easy to hate on).

Also, comments like git gud, l2p, and blatant responding without actually trying to understand what people are saying, is what is cancerous to this game. But you'll find that in any game. But I will say one thing to the community as a whole: Stop ******** at players because of the characters they choose. Don't personally attack someone because you are frustrated with the game. It's a GAME. Grow up.

 

[Red Stache]

First off, I wasn't hating on any of these characters.

All I was pointing out was Pre-Patch Diddy had no real losing match-ups and was the best in the game.
Diddy was basically everywhere at tournaments, and he easily took stocks and won.

Despite going some time dealing with Pre-Patch Diddy, no one was trying to actually ban him.
Diddy Kong was the meta for Smash Bros 4, during that time. And people were using him to the max, as best as they could.

Same thing happened with Pre-Patch Sheik, she had no losing match-ups, beat everyone in neutral, and KOed you easily.

I can see why people would hate Bayonetta and I have seen what she can do.
I know she probably won't be easy to beat or fun to fight against. But I don't hate her.

I just don't see enough reason to ban her. After all, she is still very new to the game, so there is still not enough information and results for me to conclude she is worthy of something serious as a ban.

I guess one of my points, I am trying to make is that Diddy and Sheik had and did things that also the same as Boynetta. In fact, if Sheik hadn't got nerfed, she still would be that best.

 

[Managomous]

First off, I wasn't hating on any of these characters.

All I was pointing out was Pre-Patch Diddy had no real losing match-ups and was the best in the game.
Diddy was basically everywhere at tournaments, and he easily took stocks and won.

Despite going some time dealing with Pre-Patch Diddy, no one was trying to actually ban him.
Diddy Kong was the meta for Smash Bros 4, during that time. And people were using him to the max, as best as they could.

Same thing happened with Pre-Patch Sheik, she had no losing match-ups, beat everyone in neutral, and KOed you easily.

I can see why people would hate Bayonetta and I have seen what she can do.
I know she probably won't be easy to beat or fun to fight against. But I don't hate her.

I just don't see enough reason to ban her. After all, she is still very new to the game, so there is still not enough information and results for me to conclude she is worthy of something serious as a ban.

I guess one of my points, I am trying to make is that Diddy and Sheik had and did things that also the same as Boynetta. In fact, if Sheik hadn't got nerfed, she still would be that best.

Nobody said you hated, I am merely referencing the topic name which uses the term. And...I still have to stand by the sense that I don't believe Sheik or Diddy had a combo which, could literally take you off the edge into oblivion if you get stuck in it. But...maybe that's just my ignorance. Again, I hate to say a concept is "hard" or "easy", but the fact that the potential for a super "easy" kill exists, if done properly, I don't know if that's necessarily good. (Again, wobbles worthy). But yah those characters were hated on, and nerfs were given. So in that respect, I think nerfs are needed for this character. I don't agree with bans, but for the time being I can understand.

 

[Captain Farukon]

sakurai and's team and thier decisions on nerfs and buffs have made plenty of sense. clearly they didn't destroy shiek as many people believed, they obviously didn't destroy diddy. they havent "killed" a single character despite immature voices asking them to. This belief that the balance team isnt doing a good job is ridiculous. zss "nerfed" wins the NEXT regional. cloud "nerfed" places everywhere in doubles and places high in singles.
Every character is pay to win. its a videogame. and if bayionetta is pay to win in a different sense she sure isn't a very good one. As she has at best dcent results with 4-5 players.your comparison to gill is absolutely offbase. she doesnt dominate games. we know that for sure already. Sakurai doesn't know how to make a balanced game? how many character wer ein top 16 at pound? that seems like balance to me especially considering the roster count in this game.

plenty of sense? No , they clearly only made characters without considering the balance of a fighting game, the low tier characters dont have even the slightiest chance against the likes of pikachu, rosalina, sheik ZSS, in SF even Dan has a chance to defeat akuma because even if he´s the strongest he has flaws like reduced stamina and high stun, thats a real balance, here they just keep nerfing and buffing characters without really fixing anything, why make bayonetta so extremely op then nerfed her a month later? because they didnt do any testing , they only launched her for the hype and didnt care how she ll affect the metagame
Every character is a pay to win? you dont really even know what this means right? good luck winning a tournament with Ganondorf...
She is absolutely broken and sakurai doesnt know how to make a balanced game, if you thing otherwise you are just in denial my friend

 

[Red Stache]

Thanks. I was just saying I don't hate them, just to make sure no one got the wrong idea.

And...I still have to stand by the sense that I don't believe Sheik or Diddy had a combo which, could literally take you off the edge into oblivion if you get stuck in it. But...maybe that's just my ignorance.

No, I believe you are right that they couldn't do that.
The things that Diddy had, for example, his aerials were fast and had big range, plus a lot of his moves added up percent fast.
Plus he could down-throw into whatever he wanted. Whether it was into a combo of his for big damage or into a guaranteed KO.

Pre-Patch Diddy's neutral was so good that the only other character that could even compete was Pre-Patch Shiek.
Diddy could control everything on stage and off stage. His recover was also pretty ungimpable, like Shiek's.

Because Diddy had such control, all the other characters could barely touch him, let alone KO him or win the match.
No one could properly out-speed him or out-range him.

So that it all I got at the top of my head at the moment, but I hope I made sense, as I am bad a writing.

But yah those characters were hated on, and nerfs were given. So in that respect, I think nerfs are needed for this character. I don't agree with bans, but for the time being I can understand.

So, thanks!
I hope things get sorted out properly with Bayonetta, whether it is nerfs or developing good counter-measures.


Anyway glad to see you play with Jigglypuff.
I liked her when I first played Smash Bros 64, and enjoyed have fun with her in all the other games after.

Here's hoping things get better for her too, like some buffs or new discoveries.

 

[Super FOG]

Every character is a pay to win? you dont really even know what this means right? good luck winning a tournament with Ganondorf

Abadango won a tournament with Mewtwo, "shaddap" :v

I'll skip through your ignorance and say this. Smash 4 might be the most balanced Smash ever, this game had a great focus on character development, mostly because of the roster volume of 58 fighters, what makes balancing crazy hard. Since the game's development ran over the design rule of having two versions sharing a same roster of identical characters, the difficulty of balancing went up by the double, so think about how hard is to maintain the balance between FIFTY EIGHT fighters and still preserve their identities and unique treats from the games that the fighters are representing. Bayonetta was simply bringing her hack 'n' slash style into Smash, they tried to make her play exactly like in her game, Witch Time for example was something that was needed to do, it's the signature mechanic for all Bayonetta games, one way or the other they would implement this, and I confess that I predicted that this could potentially piss people off because of how it works, even her trailer and Sakurai's explanation shows that certain things we are complainning now were intentional, because of her design.

 

[Captain Farukon]

Abadango won a tournament with Mewtwo, "shaddap" :v

I'll skip through your ignorance and say this. Smash 4 might be the most balanced Smash ever, this game had a great focus on character development, mostly because of the roster volume of 58 fighters, what makes balancing crazy hard. Since the game's development ran over the design rule of having two versions sharing a same roster of identical characters, the difficulty of balancing went up by the double, so think about how hard is to maintain the balance between FIFTY EIGHT fighters and still preserve their identities and unique treats from the games that the fighters are representing. Bayonetta was simply bringing her hack 'n' slash style into Smash, they tried to make her play exactly like in her game, Witch Time for example was something that was needed to do, it's the signature mechanic for all Bayonetta games, one way or the other they would implement this, and I confess that I predicted that this could potentially piss people off because of how it works, even her trailer and Sakurai's explanation shows that certain things we are complainning now were intentional, because of her design.

uugh a kid who thinks knows a "lot" of smash, im gonna iluminate your ignorance instead, first of all Metwo is in the F tier , 36 while ganondorf is at the rock bottom J tier 54, so its a huge difference.... no the game is not balanced ,compared it to other fighting games and you ll see , but you a entitled to your own opinion, Sakurai himself said that he didnt want smash to be a competitive fighing game but the fans made it like that so you r again wrong..he has struggled to keep some rather mediocre balanced but he really doesnt know how to do it...and that keeps showing in every single patch
To end this : i believe its for the best that bayonetta gets ban from any kind of tournaments

 

[blackghost]

uugh a kid who thinks knows a "lot" of smash, im gonna iluminate your ignorance instead, first of all Metwo is in the F tier , 36 while ganondorf is at the rock bottom J tier 54, so its a huge difference.... no the game is not balanced ,compared it to other fighting games and you ll see , but you a entitled to your own opinion, Sakurai himself said that he didnt want smash to be a competitive fighing game but the fans made it like that so you r again wrong..he has struggled to keep some rather mediocre balanced but he really doesnt know how to do it...and that keeps showing in every single patch
To end this : i believe its for the best that bayonetta gets ban from any kind of tournaments

first off calling mewtwo low tier is ridiculous mewtwo is a good chaarcter hes been buffed twice now. probably at least top 15.
you talk like you have some experience in othrer fighting games. please name me another fighing game with anywhere near this number of characters that are good or at least decent. i've seen almost every character in this game place tolp 8 and i think every character top 16.
saying this game has medicore balance is just flat untrue. look at melee and brawl and then tell me this game has medicore balance.

 

[Super FOG]

If Sakurai's vision bother you so much, why do you still play the game? You use a bunch of rhetorical and salty arguments that are basically telling us that you don't like the game and blame the development team for making choices you don't like, you bust your own reason trying to convince that everything you say is a fact. Who's really the kid? Huh?

Sakurai never created Smash thinking about a fighting game, he has this vision since the N64 game, why does this thing are bothering people like you just now? Can't people see how much we change the in-game options in order to make the game work competitively, not making Smash as a fighting game is an error now? So, you're playing the wrong game, bub. Maybe if you look at other characters besides Captain Falcon, or even look how the game works in the mainstream concept (free for all, items, random stages, the other game modes), you wouldn't blabbering so much. It sounds more like a manchild in the bandwagon of banning bayo clamming for 15 minutes of attention.

 

[Captain Farukon]

first off calling mewtwo low tier is ridiculous mewtwo is a good chaarcter hes been buffed twice now. probably at least top 15.
you talk like you have some experience in othrer fighting games. please name me another fighing game with anywhere near this number of characters that are good or at least decent. i've seen almost every character in this game place tolp 8 and i think every character top 16.
saying this game has medicore balance is just flat untrue. look at melee and brawl and then tell me this game has medicore balance.

read again i never said mewtwo was low tier, this was taken from the official smash tier list (which was posted before patch 1.1.5)
and thats his position, no there are no other games with such a huge roster and with more than 4 o 5 viable characters, (marvel vs capcom 2)
Smash has a whole was never really balanced to begin with but now with bayonetta its even worse, because she is so op and broken, like i said in other post, a competitive fighting game need to be based on skill and not op characters that wreck any other besides give every character a chance to win, look at SF4 or even Tekken tag tournament 2 !!!

If Sakurai's vision bother you so much, why do you still play the game? You use a bunch of rhetorical and salty arguments that are basically telling us that you don't like the game and blame the development team for making choices you don't like, you bust your own reason trying to convince that everything you say is a fact. Who's really the kid? Huh?

Sakurai never created Smash thinking about a fighting game, he has this vision since the N64 game, why does this thing are bothering people like you just now? Can't people see how much we change the in-game options in order to make the game work competitively, not making Smash as a fighting game is an error now? So, you're playing the wrong game, bub. Maybe if you look at other characters besides Captain Falcon, or even look how the game works in the mainstream concept (free for all, items, random stages, the other game modes), you wouldn't blabbering so much. It sounds more like a manchild in the bandwagon of banning bayo clamming for 15 minutes of attention.

if you are not interested in my opinion you dont have to read it thats all but you get fired up for nothing, an attitude fitting for what you are...a child

Sorry double post

 

[Managomous]

first off calling mewtwo low tier is ridiculous mewtwo is a good chaarcter hes been buffed twice now. probably at least top 15.
you talk like you have some experience in othrer fighting games. please name me another fighing game with anywhere near this number of characters that are good or at least decent. i've seen almost every character in this game place tolp 8 and i think every character top 16.
saying this game has medicore balance is just flat untrue. look at melee and brawl and then tell me this game has medicore balance.

Mmmm....if we go by the tier list that is posted on the Wiki...then 23% of the characters in this game are considered "High" tier. (Tiers S, A, and B). In Melee, based off the same Wiki, 24% are considered "High" Tier (SS, S, and A tiers). I wouldn't say the balance is that much better...just in Melee, there are a lot more low tier characters, and in Smash 4 there are a lot more "Medium" tiered characters.

(Roughly: In Melee, medium tier characters = 28% of the roster, and low tier characters = 50% of the characters. In Smash 4: 45% of the characters are medium tier, and 28% are considered low tier.)

So, not entirely sure if it's fair to say this is the most "Balanced" smash. But there is definitely more variability. And that makes sense considering this is also the Smash that has the MOST characters. But that doesn't mean it's more balanced.

Now...we can go by tournament winnings of course, but I don't have that list handy, and i'm pretty sure the majority of these tournaments are won by a certain set of characters (Which is reminiscent of Melee).

 

[rules94]

capitan falcon dude, are you salty because Capitan Falcon matchup is so bad against bayonetta? sound like it, plus all that you talking is filled with bias hate and doesnt make sense like my grammar.

 

[Captain Farukon]

capitan falcon dude, are you salty because Capitan Falcon matchup is so bad against bayonetta? sound like it, plus all that you talking is filled with bias hate and doesnt make sense like my grammar.

Captain Falcon also has a bad match up against sheik but both are characters that require precision and skill to be played at high level and i really like that, im against broken characters specially since she is a dlc a "pay to win" character

 

[rules94]

pay to win? why? when I use Bayonetta I always loose, she is so complex for me.. cloud however.. plus, Sheik still insane maybe she's the top tier, and Bayonetta is very similar like her(in terms of meta), Sheik is broken? I don't get it, you have a bad matchup that's all my dear

 

[silvR1995]

Let get this straight......

Pre-Patch Diddy:
People and top players were using him basically everywhere.
Despite the fact he had such easy combos and securing KOs, plus had results...
Diddy wasn't banned.

Pre-Patch Sheik:
After Diddy got nerfed, top players and others jumped on Sheik and then she was basically everywhere.
And despite what she had, and had results too...
She wasn't banned either.

Bayonetta:
She currently has great things she can do, but she is still very new, and she doesn't have the results to back up the things about her.

She is being banned in Spain and considered being banned by top players and others.


...

I'm sorry this makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Captain Farukon]

pay to win? why? when I use Bayonetta I always lose, she is so complex for me.. cloud however.. plus, Sheik good maybe she's the top tier, and Bayonetta is very similar like her(in terms of meta), Sheik is broken? I don't get it, you have a bad matchup that's all my dear

Pay to win because she is dlc and outclasses everyother character
but even if you pick a character that is op as hell if you dont know the combos and such you are gonna stink.....thats common sense but in the hands of a high level player you begin to see how broken she is , bayonetta similar to sheik?hahaaha no, you clearly have no idea what are you talking about.
maybe if you knew more about fighting games you could understand my opinion and that of those who want to ban her, but looks like you are a smash only player.

 

[rules94]

that's your opinion not a fact, she is not Brawl Metaknight, she is not PM Mewtwo, she is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more balance than them and she is like Sheik pre patch, sorry not sorry

 

[Captain Farukon]

that's your opinion not a fact, she is not Brawl Metaknight, she is not PM Mewtwo, she is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more balance than them and she is like Sheik pre patch, sorry not sorry

says the one who just said bayonetta is "too complex " for him....i respect your opinion but i doubt you know how to play properly

 

[rules94]

What's wrong about being bad as bayonetta? that's make me a bad player? an ignorant in smash? I'm not intersted in the character that's all.. I doubt that you respecy my opinion and I doubt too that you don't know how to play against her properly, that's why you complain in every discussion outside this.

 

[Captain Farukon]

What's wrong about being bad as bayonetta? that's make me a bad player? an ignorant in smash? I'm not intersted in the character that's all.. I doubt that you respecy my opinion and I doubt too that you don't know how to play against her properly, that's why you complain in every discussion outside this.

Is that what you think? ok then, anything else?
btw, here this is for you, she should be greatly nerfed or in the worst case banned

 

[rules94]

Is that what you think? ok then, anything else?
btw, here this is for you, she should be greatly nerfed or in the worst case banned

that doesnt prove anything, zero is not perfect like us and is not a god, he has a good points, but he never said that she's op or she should be banned.. you should have your own opinion. also he say before that bayonetta wasnt in the top 15 and everybody agree with him, now in this video all the people randomly change their opinion, feels like he's manipulating the fanbase after sheik's nerf.. people makes mistakes, I feel that Bayonetta is getting hate because the social media.. but stil she kinda needs a fix, however she's fine as she is now, she was the most voted character, she deserved to be the top tier, she is not broken, she's the new luigi in my honest opinion but a bit better! but whatever end of the disscussion, if you want to add more just edit your post, because this is getting long.

 

[Captain Farukon]

that doesnt prove anything, zero is not perfect like us and is not a god, he has a good points, but he never said that she's op or she should be banned.. you should have your own opinion. also he say before that bayonetta wasnt in the top 15 and everybody agree with him, now in this video all the people randomly change their opinion, feels like he's manipulating the fanbase after sheik's nerf.. people makes mistakes, I feel that Bayonetta is getting hate because the social media.. but stil she kinda needs a fix, however she's fine as she is now, she was the most voted character, she deserved to be the top tier, she is not broken, she's the new luigi in my honest opinion but a bit better! but whatever end of the disscussion, if you want to add more just edit your post, because this is getting long.

"Bayonette is very easy to use, extremely low risk, extremely high reward character, is the best character in the game ,bayonetta carries the player " (that means OP in case you didnt know), she´s toxic to the game and the smash scene
if the opinion of one of the greatest players in smash its not enough to you, then you are just in denial, if you say bayonetta is too complex for you then you are most likely very bad in the game in general, and my opinion is nerf her greatly or ban , smash 4 doesnt need cheap and broken characters,i ve nothing more to say to you, good night,

 

[blackghost]

Mmmm....if we go by the tier list that is posted on the Wiki...then 23% of the characters in this game are considered "High" tier. (Tiers S, A, and B). In Melee, based off the same Wiki, 24% are considered "High" Tier (SS, S, and A tiers). I wouldn't say the balance is that much better...just in Melee, there are a lot more low tier characters, and in Smash 4 there are a lot more "Medium" tiered characters.

(Roughly: In Melee, medium tier characters = 28% of the roster, and low tier characters = 50% of the characters. In Smash 4: 45% of the characters are medium tier, and 28% are considered low tier.)

So, not entirely sure if it's fair to say this is the most "Balanced" smash. But there is definitely more variability. And that makes sense considering this is also the Smash that has the MOST characters. But that doesn't mean it's more balanced.

Now...we can go by tournament winnings of course, but I don't have that list handy, and i'm pretty sure the majority of these tournaments are won by a certain set of characters (Which is reminiscent of Melee).

i've watched melee for a while now maybe about a year. never seen most of the roster place top 8. also the gap between th eelite 4 characters and the rest of the cast is massive in smash 4 it isnt that large.

 

[Managomous]

i've watched melee for a while now maybe about a year. never seen most of the roster place top 8. also the gap between th eelite 4 characters and the rest of the cast is massive in smash 4 it isnt that large.

Melee has been established for many years, I am pretty sure in the past different characters placed top 8 (I believe in the beginning, Mario was considered high tier). And you're saying "The rest of the cast is massive in Smash 4 it isn't that large", do you have something substantial to back that up? Or are you just going based off of how it "feels"?

 

[n8han11]

Bayonetta shouldn't be banned. We didn't ban Diddy or Sheik despite their overwhelming results, so why are we being so quick to try and ban Bayonetta?

 

[rules94]

 

[blackghost]

Melee has been established for many years, I am pretty sure in the past different characters placed top 8 (I believe in the beginning, Mario was considered high tier). And you're saying "The rest of the cast is massive in Smash 4 it isn't that large", do you have something substantial to back that up? Or are you just going based off of how it "feels"?

i'm judging off results. glitch duck dog and robin in top 8. mewtwo won a regional (after buffs but still), meta knight has been running mexico, 9b was doing very well in japan with ryu. we saw wii fit trainer in top 32 evo, ect.
pluys i'm judging off general feel of the games. no one will tell you melee is a balanced game character wise top to bottom. melee has been established and guess what its balance is horrid doesn't detract from its merrits and players still love it but the balance is crap.

 

[Managomous]

i'm judging off results. glitch duck dog and robin in top 8. mewtwo won a regional (after buffs but still), meta knight has been running mexico, 9b was doing very well in japan with ryu. we saw wii fit trainer in top 32 evo, ect.
pluys i'm judging off general feel of the games. no one will tell you melee is a balanced game character wise top to bottom. melee has been established and guess what its balance is horrid doesn't detract from its merrits and players still love it but the balance is crap.

You went from talking about top 8, to stretching it to top 32 o_O.

And it's clear you're pretty bias as you're not actually basing it off of facts primarily, but rather what you "Believe". I believe that most of the time, when you analyze top 8 of most tournaments, you are going to see a majority of the same characters (Sheik, Diddy Kong, Ryu, Cloud etc) and the number will match the same percentage of the Melee top characters that I previously quoted. Percentages don't lie.

Also, this is a gross oversimplification of what I believe people were actually asking for. People were asking for more options that can lead to combos, not for the developers to "give" you combos. In addition, I don't believe anyone was asking for combos that could actually lead you off the stage into death instantly if done properly/ not DI'd perfectly out. People like to mix things up, it keeps it fresh, it gives life to your character and gives it YOUR personality to your character, because you're choosing what you want to do. People wanted flexibility with their characters, and in a lot of instances it's impossible to combo due to the knockback that was introduced for certain hits with certain characters. I don't mind the combos that currently exist and that people discovered, but there has to be some element of "difficulty of execution and high risk high reward" before you can justify a 0 to death combo. But that's just what I think.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Managomous Be sure to edit your post or use the quote feature for a multi-quote post instead of double-posting.

 

[Managomous]

Managomous Be sure to edit your post or use the quote feature for a multi-quote post instead of double-posting.

Sorry about that, was trying to find a way to merge it. Thanks for doing that for me

 

[blackghost]

You went from talking about top 8, to stretching it to top 32 o_O.

And it's clear you're pretty bias as you're not actually basing it off of facts primarily, but rather what you "Believe". I believe that most of the time, when you analyze top 8 of most tournaments, you are going to see a majority of the same characters (Sheik, Diddy Kong, Ryu, Cloud etc) and the number will match the same percentage of the Melee top characters that I previously quoted. Percentages don't lie.

Also, this is a gross oversimplification of what I believe people were actually asking for. People were asking for more options that can lead to combos, not for the developers to "give" you combos. In addition, I don't believe anyone was asking for combos that could actually lead you off the stage into death instantly if done properly/ not DI'd perfectly out. People like to mix things up, it keeps it fresh, it gives life to your character and gives it YOUR personality to your character, because you're choosing what you want to do. People wanted flexibility with their characters, and in a lot of instances it's impossible to combo due to the knockback that was introduced for certain hits with certain characters. I don't mind the combos that currently exist and that people discovered, but there has to be some element of "difficulty of execution and high risk high reward" before you can justify a 0 to death combo. But that's just what I think.

genesis 3 top 8
dk, shiek, villager, diddy, zss, fox, ness
pound
shiek, bayonetta, zss, mario, cloud, metaknight, mewtwo
glitch
bayonetta, duckhunt, robin, metaknight, zss, shiek
supersmash con
shiek, falcon, pikachu, fox, dk, ness, diddy, zss
beast 6
shiek, greninja, cloud,pikachu, rosalina, diddy,ness , fox
its not what i feel its literally how this game has many different character place. even with more character than melee top 8 have a lot of representaton. that isnt the same percentage as melee.

pink fresh started a stream yesterday and he was explaning how 0 to dath combos are unpractical andhow they depend on your opponent getting hit with divekick in the air. he also explained that DI correcty will getyou out most of the time but not always. if you really think the top bayinetta players like other top players haven't put thier personality in the character you haven't watched all the top players have personlality in thier play. dabuz is a wall he wants you to fight luma not him directly, zero is basic he stays true to basic fundementals and doesnt mix things up much, void uses all of shieks tool including dair alot, nairo knows no chill, trela is style, 9b walks you to a blast zone.
"people were asking for more options to lead ot combos" how the characters are designed isn't changing. there are grapplers in smash 4, zoners, combo chracters, and spacing caracters. COmbo character obviously have the combos. if you want to have combos you need to play a combo character bowser isnt turning into fox anytime soon.
as for the zero to deaths idk if they can be escaoed or not but i do see that when i get them they coe from my opponent attacking me in the air.

 

[Managomous]

I would argue that the tournaments you mentioned were so split apart in dates, that patches/ introductions of new characters are to blame for that vast variability, which makes it "seem" like it has more characters who have more of a chance.

Let's start off with Super Smash Con (August 6th-9th 2015):

Patch 1.1.0 which the tournament was on, seen a major improvement to DK and a minor improvement to Ness' meteor hit.
At this point: ZSS, Pikachu, Sheik, Diddy were already dominating the scene at the time, so not much variability there.
Bayonetta, Corrin, and Cloud were not yet introduced.
Ryu was only around for about 2 months at that time, so it makes sense you don't see Ryu up there.

I would argue that using this tournament as an example of variability, is a great stretch considering: All the characters were not introduced, and between this and Genesis 3 there were 3 patches introduced. So let's not consider this a "valid" tournament to analyze for variability.

With that said:
Genesis 3 January 15-17-
Corrin and Bayonetta were not yet introduced, so they can't be accounted for.
Cloud was just introduced a month ago, so that makes sense he was not seen in tournament form.
At this point: Sheik, Zss, Fox, Ness, Diddy, and DK make an appearance in Top 8 again (If you look at Super Smash Con). SO there's not much variability there. The only different this time? No Falcon or Pikachu, instead there's villager. So that's cool, Villager is learned yay! But that's about it.
Newcomer to top 8: Villager

Beast 6- February 19th-21
At this point: Sheik, fox, ness, diddy show up once again in top 8.
Note: Pikachu shows up again after missing from Genesis 3.
Newcomers to top 8: Greninja, Cloud, Rosalina

Glitch- March 12th
At this point: Sheik, Zss are still top tier and make an appearance.
Bayonetta is introduced February 3rd, and a month later, makes an appearance at top 8. Funny, how out of all the tournaments you mentioned, no other new DLC appeared after just a month. Rather it took a few months to learn...hmmmm...
Newcomers to top 8: duckhunt, robin, and metaknight

Pound 2016- April 2-3
At this point: Sheik, ZSS, Bayonetta , and Metaknight once again show up in top 8.
Newcomers to top 8: Mario, Cloud, Mewtwo

Interesting Trends based off these tournaments
Out of all the introduced DLC characters, it took Bayonetta the shortest amount of time to reach top 8. ~1 month
Sheik showed up 5/5 times
ZSS showed up 4/5 times
Bayonetta showed up 2/2 times (She was only available in those two tournaments
Fox showed up 3/5
Ness showed up 3/5
Diddy showed up 3/5

Once Genesis 3 happened, DK disappeared.
Falcon only showed up in Super Smash Con, so can he really be considered as a variable?

Conclusion:
Sheik, ZSS, Bayonetta have been in almost every top 8, so not much variability there. Can't be considered.
Fox, Ness, Diddy, have appeared 60% of every tournament in top 8. Again, not much variability there (You can say that at their times, they were considered the "Top Tier" but due to new character introduction and patches, if they started showing less results, it could possibly be due to that).

The only characters which have made a random appearance in these tournaments are: 12
Mario, Cloud, Mewtwo, Greninja, Rosalina, duckhunt, robin, metaknight, Villager, Captain Falcon, and Pikachu.

If you look at it, the "Top 6"
Sheik, Zss, Bayonetta, Fox, Ness, Diddy = 10%
Variable characters out of the roster at these tournaments = 21%

So when you really look at it, there isn't that much variability in the characters that show up in top 8. The only reason it "seems" like that, is due to the fact that
A. Bayonetta, Corrin were not introduced for most of the tournaments.
B. Cloud was still new to one of the tournaments so he had to be learned
C. Patches were introduced after Super Smash Con, which changed the metagame.
D. Even when there was variability, those characters showed in only 1 or 2 tournaments.

I don't know if you can really consider that to be more "balanced" especially considered Sheik, Zss, Bayonetta, Fox, Ness, and Diddy have shown their faces over or equal to 60% of the time. (Reminds me of Melee in that sense considering character who often show up in top places are: Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, and Jigglypuff due to Hungrybox) :O

 

[kiwirules99]

For people to keep up to date and decide their opinions, I have compiled a list of the arguments I have found both for and against Bayonetta. Feel free to add anything you think I missed, and do so respectfully. Please note that my intent is not to support either side. Do with this information what you will.

For-

Players should adapt to the meta game.

Players should learn the game and the matchup if they find themselves losing.

If the player playing Bayonetta is aiming to win in a competitive setting, the opponent can not really be blame them for choosing a "broken" character.

She has already been nerfed.

The players specifically chose to play lower tier characters.

Bayonetta has not been out for a large amount of time.

It is not impossible to beat Bayonetta

People should DI her combos.

Bayonetta can not always execute 0 to death combos.

Some people actually enjoy watching Bayonetta.

Against-

Low Risk/High Reward Ratio.

Very Easy to pickup and play. So easy, in fact, it is feasible to have not even touched the game, pickup Bayonetta, and win a tournament within a month, or a week if you have either prior fighting game experience, or are just naturally talented.

Zero to death combos.

Can take the fun out of the game for some opponents.

Can make matches boring to watch.

Playing her causes spectators (and others) to dislike the player.

Often played very spammy.

Forces characters into a certain play style.

Sometimes ruins players, especially in lower level play.

Bayonetta is very easy to approach with and rack up damage.

Bayonetta oftentimes gives players a tough matchup, even if it is possible to beat her.

Breaks some of the fundamentals of Smash.

People already DI her combos and still get hit.

Bayonetta is toxic.

"Adapt," is not a viable argument.

 

[TurboLink]

She has already been nerfed.

Such a hilarious argument.