Raziek's Robin Research Room & Repository (Moveset, Mechanics & Frame Data!)

[Locuan]

Hey guys I compiled the frame data presented at the original post by @ Raziek unto excel tables (It helps me study a bit better). If there are any mistakes, let me know and I will fix it. Anyways, I hope this can help out a few of you if it has not been done before:

"A-Moves"

Spoiler

Grabs

Spoiler

Rolls

Spoiler

Specials

Spoiler

 

[PK Gaming]

What does "Shield-on" refer to?

The frame in which you can shield after using said move?

 

[Locuan]

What does "Shield-on" refer to?

The frame in which you can shield after using said move?

That is the terminology that @ Raziek used. As a consequence, I concluded that it is as you mentioned after reading through the original post. So I believe it would also mean that it is an approximate on the frame the move finishes. Therefore, you should be able to perform actions after that frame.

Edit: My English is going crazy right now.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

How did you get all this info?

 

[Raziek]

How did you get all this info?

@ Croi Collected it himself using a capture card.

 

[Croi]

I recorded the moves at 60 FPS, then I counted the frames. I held the shield button after every attack and the first frame the bubble came up was the cutoff frame.

 

[waterlong]

that's a nice bit of information you got there its all helpful

I can confirm that Elwind and his Levin sword down air can spike. (bronze sword cant spike and Im not sure if the second Elwind shot spikes but i dont think so)
also, Elwind actually has 14 uses. each time Elwind shoots a wave thinggie uses a use, having 1 use left and using Elwind wall cause you to just get the first boost before becoming helpless and falling.

 

[Altais]

Not sure if anyone else has said this already, but I have found a short-hop U-air to be a great alternative to U-Smash, due to it being able to hit opponents above, in front of, and in some cases, behind Robin (depending on their height).

 

[Opana]

Shorthopping Thoron allows the beam to cover more area, as the beam literally falls with Robin back onstage out of a shorthop.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

Shorthopping Thoron allows the beam to cover more area, as the beam literally falls with Robin back onstage out of a shorthop.

This is great. I catch people all the time like this because they don't expect a falling Thoron. It's harder to kill with since you tend to only catch them with the back half of the beam, but it's still a great damage dealer and a way to rattle your opponent.

 

[Opana]

This is great. I catch people all the time like this because they don't expect a falling Thoron. It's harder to kill with since you tend to only catch them with the back half of the beam, but it's still a great damage dealer and a way to rattle your opponent.

Yeah after sding enough using Thoron I noticed how it came with me and aside from no more sds I've learned to sh thorrons(Aside from killing like you said)

 

[CharZane]

Something I've noticed has proven useful (to me, at least) of late is partial jab combos. Got the idea from Ike's 'combat walk', in that you jab twice, pause, and then full jab combo (or perhaps do something else entirely, really). It's proven invaluable against counter-spam that would normally catch the third hit, and it's a nice way of tacking on some chip damage besides... though, as I've only gotten into the habit of using it regularly just today, I can't say how much practical use it has besides counter-baiting-- don't know the frame data on what kind of opening it provides or such. Still, might be a promising little trick. ^^

 

[Opana]

Dtilt is amazing for baiting.

Ledge drop->Forward rising Arc Fire usually catches people who like to wait outside roll distance.

Ledge hop turnaround reverse thunder is an intereesting mix up

Elwind meteor smashes with the first hit

 

[LIQUID12A]

On the main guide page you should change the effect of Nosferatu, its very strange as you heal more damage the less they have and the more you have, if you are at 100 you can potentially go to 70, even 50 if you land it on a fresh opponent,

So, technical players, any truth to this claim? I haven't seen anything like this and want verification before editing it into my guide.

 

[False Sense]

So, technical players, any truth to this claim? I haven't seen anything like this and want verification before editing it into my guide.

Nosferatu scaling? Yes, that's correct, and it's something we've known about for awhile. Basically, the more damage you have than your opponent, the more Nosferatu heals you. So using the move when Robin has a high percentage of damage after taking a stock from the opponent can lead to Robin recovering a fairly notable amount of health. This is quite significant, as a well-timed Nosferatu can potentially tip the scales in Robin's favor, giving him/her a good lead against the opponent that can carry Robin to victory.

You can find more information on the OP of this page, I believe.

 

[LIQUID12A]

a well-timed Nosferatu can potentially tip the scales in Robin's favor, giving him/her a good lead against the opponent that can carry Robin to victory.

For all your seriousness, False, you're a freaking prankster when you want to be.

Anyway, thanks. I'll edit this in tomorrow, then.

 

[False Sense]

For all your seriousness, False, you're a freaking prankster when you want to be.

You catch on quick, don't you? The truth of the matter is that I'm really quite childish at heart.

In all seriousness, though, the power of Nosferatu's scaling effect really can give Robin an advantage if used properly. It's certainly not the easiest tactic to pull off, but the potential reward is great. A skilled Robin player should be able to recognize when is the best time to use Nosferatu, and what is the best way to safely land it. If I may make a suggestion, I think it would be worthwhile to include advice on how to accomplish this in your guide (which is coming along great, by the way), so that Robin players can get a better idea of not only how Nosferatu works, but what the most effective strategy is when it comes to using it.

 

[LIQUID12A]

You catch on quick, don't you? The truth of the matter is that I'm really quite childish at heart.

In all seriousness, though, the power of Nosferatu's scaling effect really can give Robin an advantage if used properly. It's certainly not the easiest tactic to pull off, but the potential reward is great. A skilled Robin player should be able to recognize when is the best time to use Nosferatu, and what is the best way to safely land it. If I may make a suggestion, I think it would be worthwhile to include advice on how to accomplish this in your guide (which is coming along great, by the way), so that Robin players can get a better idea of not only how Nosferatu works, but what the most effective strategy is when it comes to using it.

Nosferatu's section could be as big as Thunder's when I get to expanding on that.

And really, this ain't the first time that's happened with you either, False. I've been drawing similarities between the two of us for some time, but that's a topic for PM's. Thank you for the advice on NOS-4-A2 Nosferatu.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I usually wonder if to go for Nosferatu Tanking after taking down that one stock, because I seem to not strike enough successfully with the move, and then there's the Rage Effect which I wonder if to take advantage of when being in such high percents. But yeah. I think I gotta just study the move more to ensure better use of it in the times where it's appropriate and effective.
Just hadn't had good luck with Nosferatu'ing so far, at least in For Glory.

 

[CharZane]

I usually wonder if to go for Nosferatu Tanking after taking down that one stock, because I seem to not strike enough successfully with the move, and then there's the Rage Effect which I wonder if to take advantage of when being in such high percents. But yeah. I think I gotta just study the move more to ensure better use of it in the times where it's appropriate and effective.
Just hadn't had good luck with Nosferatu'ing so far, at least in For Glory.

I've personally been having the best luck using it after an opponent rolls or after powershielding a greedy 'quickly even up the stocks' sort of smash. I'm sure it's apt to be great on foes expecting, say, a short-hopped Fair who try to just shield, but I've not had much chance to get a feel for landing aerial ones (my focus until now had been on mastering b-reversing and getting some crisp Ftilt timings, which have both been runaway successes~ ). Anywhos, but my next task is to focus on those spike timings and getting them to a practical state-- though, I don't personally tend to find as much use for Nosferatu's healing as I do the fact that it can really shake things up to land one. I can definitely say that the slower and larger the foe, the easier it is to land, though... not that the same can't be said of most any attacks. ^^"

Are there any setups for Elwind/Dair spikes that've been discovered, in any case? Ideally one that isn't throw-dependant-- the high angle of Robin's throws honestly has me feeling like Nairs are a simpler gimping option off of those... Perhaps a Nair itself to offstage someone might, actually, be a good low-angle hit to set a spike off of...? I'm certainly not expecting anything like a Ken combo from Robin, but I feel like with two spikes there just has to be a few methods I'm missing.

 

[Croi]

People asked me for the jumpsquat data for the other characters I've done so far, so I figured I may as well get Robin's while I'm at it.

jumpsquat:

Spoiler: Short Hop

Spoiler: Full Hop

in the air on frame 8

Unfortunately, of the four characters I've done so far (Robin, Little Mac, Lucario, and Villager) Robin has the worst jumpsquat frames

 

[Raziek]

People asked me for the jumpsquat data for the other characters I've done so far, so I figured I may as well get Robin's while I'm at it.

jumpsquat:

Spoiler: Short Hop

Spoiler: Full Hop

in the air on frame 8

Unfortunately, of the four characters I've done so far (Robin, Little Mac, Lucario, and Villager) Robin has the worst jumpsquat frames

I'm incredibly conflicted on liking this post.

I like that you did it, but hate that our jumpsquat is that ass.

 

[False Sense]

I'm incredibly conflicted on liking this post.

I like that you did it, but hate that our jumpsquat is that ***.

So, what exactly is a jumpsquat, and what makes Robin's bad?

 

[Croi]

A "jumpsquat" is the amount of frames it takes to be in the air after you press the jump button. Most characters have 5 frames, so Robin having 8 means he is unusually slow.

 

[Raziek]

And to further extrapolate, that means it takes MORE TIME to be able to do something in the air. And slow is always bad.

 

[Shaya]

At least neutral air comes out in -5 frames.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm struggling to come up with a reason as to why our character has the physic of an old man

 

[CharZane]

I'm struggling to come up with a reason as to why our character has the physic of an old man

Must be the hundred extra swords and tomes we've got to carry around-- that was always my explanation for Link's speed (all those arrows/bombs). I mean, Ganon only carries around the one sword, while we've got at least dozens of spares to lug about... How else would they respawn every few seconds? And that 'aha! found it!' sort of animation that accompanies their 'respawn'? Nosferatu and such only take longer because they're kept buried farther down in our robes...

Joking aside, I'm starting to see Robin's Ftilt and Nair in a similar light to Marth's Fair at this point-- the more I use them, the better games seem to go. Starting to think they're our real 'bread and butter'-- even if Levin airs, Arcfires, and Thunders are the 'meat and potatoes' of it. Maybe with smashes as the dessert (a nice treat when appropriate), and grabs as the off-date vegetables (necessary, but leaving such a bad taste in your mouth and leaving you wishing for better...). Okay, maybe joking not aside-- didn't intend to make a whole metaphor out of it-- must be hungry. ^^"

 

[False Sense]

Must be the hundred extra swords and tomes we've got to carry around-- that was always my explanation for Link's speed (all those arrows/bombs). I mean, Ganon only carries around the one sword, while we've got at least dozens of spares to lug about... How else would they respawn every few seconds? And that 'aha! found it!' sort of animation that accompanies their 'respawn'? Nosferatu and such only take longer because they're kept buried farther down in our robes...

I think Robin's sluggish speed may have less to do with the actual character and more to do with balancing. Robin is a character with a variety of moves that can trap opponents and severely punish those who leave themselves vulnerable. Perhaps if Robin was faster, he/she could potentially combine those two traits, trapping opponents and then punishing them hard for it. Maybe that sort of power would have been too good. At least, that's what I think may be the case.

 

[CharZane]

I think Robin's sluggish speed may have less to do with the actual character and more to do with balancing. Robin is a character with a variety of moves that can trap opponents and severely punish those who leave themselves vulnerable. Perhaps if Robin was faster, he/she could potentially combine those two traits, trapping opponents and then punishing them hard for it. Maybe that sort of power would have been too good. At least, that's what I think may be the case.

Hm... actually, now I'm starting to wonder if Sakurai went with a -speed Robin in his playthrough(s)? But yeah, between Robin's variety and such, I feel like the few direct weaknesses we see are the result of some of smash 4's patented psychosis-level-balancing-- though, I do think it'd still interesting to consider the thematic implications. Poor grab range due to having both hands full? Rather like Mac's iffy grab due to having boxing gloves on? Though, Elwind feeling like a worse recovery than Dolphin Slash just feels... weird. May be just my impression of it, of course, but 'wind magic' rather screams 'good recovery'-- or at least, one would wonder why Robin'd bother with it if the sword would potentially get us back onstage safer... Then again, I'm certainly biased by my limited success with Elwind spikes and a handful of irksome SDs due to overestimating its lift.

 

[Nu~]

Has anyone else noticed that one of our greatest drawbacks can also act as our advantage? When we run out of uses for a tome or levin sword, as we all know, it falls off. However, this can severely mess up the opponent's chance to punish us and their momentum, if our tone/sword hits them in the process. I've been using this to my advantage by purposely playing closer to the opponent when my tome or sword is about to run out. The item will fall off, disrupt the opponent, and I can just keep up the pressure. This seems like it may end up as a useful (and lolzy) "technique" if we use it to our advantage

Edit: BTW Something about this thread just feels...mystical and wise. Like robin him/herself

 

[Shaya]

I'm struggling to come up with a reason as to why our character has the physic of an old man

I think a few people give good points as to why. Thematically I would think it has a lot to do with this notion of a "mage" or "tactician". Maybe the awakening community was excited robin's in the game, but I'm pretty sure more Fire Emblem fans of longer pedigree have been begging for a mage forever, and Sakurai gave us a mage, tried and true in every design facet, he did an amazing job.

As a mage they aren't front line fighters, in some games they have one less movement than other foot classes usually to emphasise this.
They're an option rich character, being able to hit freely at both 1 or 2 range, being able to counter other ranged characters up close, while countering melee fighters from afar. But whenever they're in a position to be counter attacked, they're often very squishie, and cannot afford that to happen. You have to appreciate their strategic niche.
Being the game tactician, well that often implies a strategist who's role isn't on the battlefield (a common element of all other games before awakening). Combine the two and you have this idea of having to be careful with your movements, as strategically you have "all the tools" from any given position that you have chosen to be in. For you the player, or in some cases smart AI, you always deal with the mage first and approach them, as their capabilities to decimate an army unchecked is mostly unparalleled considering generally low resistance.

How is a mage a rush down character? I'm sure we've all had mages in fire emblem games that were gods and could solo armies, and in the case of a wind mage, well some are canonically pretty frikken fast (my boy Levin #TheOriginal [not a thunder mage]), they kept up with Pegasus Knights, but I digress.

Basically, this character has a lot of range, a lot of projectiles, and considering this, pretty alright frame data with great hitboxes, albeit pretty harshly limited to not be able to rush down/punish (hint: slow grab [the main punishment tool in every game], slow run), the character isn't designed to do that. You press your advantages hard, and you cannot be 'ignored', pretty great balance. Realistically, everything Zelda could've ever wanted.

 

[CharZane]

Has anyone else noticed that one of our greatest drawbacks can also act as our advantage? When we run out of uses for a tome or levin sword, as we all know, it falls off. However, this can severely mess up the opponent's chance to punish us and their momentum, if our tone/sword hits them in the process. I've been using this to my advantage by purposely playing closer to the opponent when my tome or sword is about to run out. The item will fall off, disrupt the opponent, and I can just keep up the pressure. This seems like it may end up as a useful (and lolzy) "technique" if we use it to our advantage

Edit: BTW Something about this thread just feels...mystical and wise. Like robin him/herself

I've actually gotten a stray kill or two from tome/sword drops-- and I can definitely agree that, if you're too close to catch it, using it with abandon when it's nearly out for the safety that dropping provides has allowed me to hopelessly confuse countless opponents with sudden and 'inexplicable' style shifts. The easiest I know of is fire jabbing the last Arcfire to punish a roll (which potentially combos into an Fsmash if you're lucky, but usually at least a free tilt) or Fairing a foe likely to shield to catch them with the falling sword when they release it. Though, punishing roll-dodges of Nosferatu looks promising as well, given its low usage count. I want to see the person with the courage to pull off a wind-tome-dropped Elwind combo-gimp of some sort while still recovering, though.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think a few people give good points as to why. Thematically I would think it has a lot to do with this notion of a "mage" or "tactician". Maybe the awakening community was excited robin's in the game, but I'm pretty sure more Fire Emblem fans of longer pedigree have been begging for a mage forever, and Sakurai gave us a mage, tried and true in every design facet, he did an amazing job.

As a mage they aren't front line fighters, in some games they have one less movement than other foot classes usually to emphasise this.
They're an option rich character, being able to hit freely at both 1 or 2 range, being able to counter other ranged characters up close, while countering melee fighters from afar. But whenever they're in a position to be counter attacked, they're often very squishie, and cannot afford that to happen. You have to appreciate their strategic niche.
Being the game tactician, well that often implies a strategist who's role isn't on the battlefield (a common element of all other games before awakening). Combine the two and you have this idea of having to be careful with your movements, as strategically you have "all the tools" from any given position that you have chosen to be in. For you the player, or in some cases smart AI, you always deal with the mage first and approach them, as their capabilities to decimate an army unchecked is mostly unparalleled considering generally low resistance.

How is a mage a rush down character? I'm sure we've all had mages in fire emblem games that were gods and could solo armies, and in the case of a wind mage, well some are canonically pretty frikken fast (my boy Levin #TheOriginal [not a thunder mage]), they kept up with Pegasus Knights, but I digress.

My post was more of a sarcastic rhetorical question, but I really appreciate the thoughtful response. As a FE fan who's been clamoring for a mage-type character in smash, your assessment is definitely on point (though technically if Robin were closer to his/her game self, then he/she would be top tier since Tacticians were hilariously broken in FE10)

Basically, this character has a lot of range, a lot of projectiles, and considering this, pretty alright frame data with great hitboxes, albeit pretty harshly limited to not be able to rush down/punish (hint: slow grab [the main punishment tool in every game], slow run), the character isn't designed to do that. You press your advantages hard, and you cannot be 'ignored', pretty great balance. Realistically, everything Zelda could've ever wanted.

Up until now, I was content with that. I was cool with Robin's ability do "ok" against most of the cast, and suffer against a few characters. But Robin's absolute inability to deal with the top tiers in this game (and even some characters who aren't top like Ness) make his advantages a moot point. I know that the top tiers are problematic for most of the cast, but Robin has it extra bad due to his/her garbage grab game and awful mobility.

 

[Delzethin]

I still say that a wider stagelist and access to custom moves would make Robin a force. More means to offset our disadvantages.

There's also the fact that a lot of people are just gravitating to the fast characters at the moment. There seems to still be a Melee mentality of "fragile speedster = automatic high tier", but when people start figuring out how to counter them, their popularity'll hopefully fall off to something more reasonable.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't buy this negative nancy low-tier pity party. Speaking objectively as a non-Thoron main, Thoron is a robust character who is unlikely to have poor matchups against most of the cast. I don't foresee a single matchup going 3:7 against Thoron.

Additionally, Thoron is going to be one of the best 4v4 characters; it's almost inevitable.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yeah Thoron+'s pretty good character, all things considered.

I love robbing unsuspecting opponents with him. I'll always charge Thoron+, even if I have to micro charge it against an opponent who's good at pressuring. It's "that" good.

 

[wizardto1]

I feel that Arcthunder fares much better in 1-on-1 than Thoron. It does around the same amount of damage but it has a long hitbox, can link to another move if you're close, and a surprisingly good K.O move. The only thing Thoron has is range.

 

[False Sense]

I feel that Arcthunder fares much better in 1-on-1 than Thoron. It does around the same amount of damage but it has a long hitbox, can link to another move if you're close, and a surprisingly good K.O move. The only thing Thoron has is range.

Well, Thoron has better range, speed, duration, damage, and knockback than Arcthunder, making it more ideal as a finisher or just an easier way to rack up damage. That's not to say it outclasses Arcthunder, though; the extended duration of the attack and the potential follow-ups it allows for make it a very potent move in its own right. In my opinion, both moves are solid and have their own uses; neither one outright outclasses the other.

 

[Shaya]

Isn't fully charged thoron only 10% while arc thunder (I could be wrong) does a noticeable amount more?