Raziek's Robin Research Room & Repository (Moveset, Mechanics & Frame Data!)

[Dark Lady]

If you want me to find out/test something, let me know here. As far as I can tell, the main nerf so far is Robin lost the Third Jump from a fully charged Thoron mid-air

 

[Hong]

@ Dark Lady
@ Raziek has already had plenty of hands-on time with the Wii U version, and has confirmed the removal of the renewed jump glitch in this thread. Robe physics aside he has not been able to confirm any other changes, but if you do find any, feel free to post them here! For the time being, I have merged your thread into this one.

 

[Dark Lady]

Thanks for the thread move. Wasn't thinking and my phone was almost dead.

Can confirm that not much has been adjusted beyond the third jump nerf. And even that move is fairly niche.

 

[Mac2492]

Removing the triple jump was completely unnecessary but it doesn't hurt Robin given how niche that bug was anyway.

Is her standing grab still the same in the Wii U version? I've only been using dash/roll-cancel grabs because landing a standing grab with Robin is like landing Rest. -_-; Having shield grab as an option for Robin would be a fair QoL buff.

 

[Raziek]

Standing grab is the same.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Removed the renewed jump glitch ughhhh

 

[Mac2492]

Some things that might be work looking into:
1) B-Reversed Thunder charging pushes you a fair distance in the opposite direction.
2) Charging Thoron keeps momentum while jumping. If you start charging just before the apex of your jump you will go slightly higher.
3) Gliding Elwind spikes twice.

I stumbled upon the third while testing the first two and felt it was significant enough to warrant its own post.

 

[Raziek]

It's worth noting, for sure.

I still wouldn't ever take gliding though. Default is too versatile.

 

[Mac2492]

While I agree that Elwind is the safest choice, I don't think Gliding has been tested enough. To be honest, Gliding has gotten me more SDs than kills and I'm fairly partial towards Elwind myself because For Glory disallows customs. With that said, I see a lot of kill potential with this move. There's more to it than two spikes. The reduced vertical movement does hinder recovery, but it also makes the move more difficult to punish upon a whiff. I'm sure all of you can relate to attempting an Elwind spike just to whiff and float back to the stage helplessly because Elwind launched you too high, or missing a ledge sweetspot and floating right into a charged smash. Many people might argue that you shouldn't use Elwind as an attack, but it's perfectly viable as a surprise attack and Gliding seems viable as a primary attack.

I've done further testing and the second spike is especially interesting. The range can be adjusted with DI but it's approximately the same as Arcfire and Distant Nosferatu. It can be used as a followup to Arcfire (no spike due to flames but it might with perfect timing) and a surprise followup spike to Distant Nosferatu on an off-stage opponent. I have not had success with offstage Arcfire-Nosfera2-Gliding because it's hard to land.

Even more interesting is its use as an aggressive followup. For example, you can follow up tilts and aerials with Gliding to meteor on the second hit. The first wind blade launches you very far very fast, much faster than standard forward jump. Even if you launch enemies high you can double jump into Gliding and land the second spike for a kill.

Again, I think default Elwind is excellent and appropriate in any situation/matchup. I'm just pointing out that Gliding Elwind seems to be an incredibly strong tool for aggressive play, and I feel everyone is too quick to throw it out the window due to how good the default version is. You sacrifice a safer recovery for a powerful, aggressive spiking recovery. Fair trade imo.

 

[Raziek]

For those wondering, everything seems the same in 1.04 save for the Triple Jump being gone, as expected.

I haven't been able to get the flub hitbox on f-tilt (where it whiffs if they're close), so if someone can replicate that, do try!

I know they fixed the dead-zone on Shulk's D-tilt, they may have fixed our F-tilt in the same manner.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Have they fixed the dead zone in front of Robin on the utilt? It would be great to have that as an option.

 

[Raziek]

Have they fixed the dead zone in front of Robin on the utilt? It would be great to have that as an option.

I'm pretty sure that one is intentionally narrow and will likely stay that way.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I just find it weird that the sword can go right through Mario's head and not do anything because the hitbox hasn't activated yet.

Shame. Guess Utilt will remain one of his least used moves.

 

[Raziek]

If it's one if your least used moves, you're probably not using it right, or you're fighting a lot of short characters.

It has a very specific job, and it does that job EXTREMELY well.

Dair though. Dair is our most useless move.

 

[False Sense]

If it's one if your least used moves, you're probably not using it right, or you're fighting a lot of short characters.

It has a very specific job, and it does that job EXTREMELY well.

Dair though. Dair is our most useless move.

Really? Could you elaborate on what kind of specific situation makes U-Tilt a good move?

Though, to be fair, D-Air does work for spiking (but it's not really helpful outside of that).

 

[Mac2492]

I noticed ftilt being more reliable as well. Haven't been able to make it flubb yet.

Utilt is decent for guarding high and can sometimes lead into a surprise Uair or Usmash. Much safer option than Usmash. It's also decent for blocking a high ledge recovery. Dthrow-Utilt MIGHT be a combo at 0%.

Dair is only useful for spiking and a very occasional punish. I rather like it since it does great damage/knockback even if you don't get the spike. It's just too punishable in most other situations.

Customs seem unchanged so far. Same spiking properties, no scaling on Nosfera2, Arcfire+ not buffed, etc. This isn't a change, but hitting with Arcfire+ twice puts the enemy at 21% (four times is 42%) so the damage might be 10.5%. It also seems to deal pretty significant damage to shield (can someone confirm?) and can kill around 160-170%. Arguably better for hitting off-stage opponents than the other variants. It also dealt the same damage no matter how much it was spammed, leading me to believe Robin's spells don't stale.

Does anyone have a good argument for Goetia? Nosferatu speaks for itself. Distant Nosferatu is decent for spacing games and Arcfire/Gliding Elwind combos. The size and suction are nice but the damage is fairly mediocre considering they can shake out of it like any other grab. If you're going to punish in the air you might as well aerial and on the ground you can just roll cancel grab. Would like some input on this move.

 

[Folt]

If it's one if your least used moves, you're probably not using it right, or you're fighting a lot of short characters.

It has a very specific job, and it does that job EXTREMELY well.

Dair though. Dair is our most useless move.

I'm guessing you're referring to "dair" dair and not "Levin" dair?

Or is it both?

 

[Raziek]

I'm guessing you're referring to "dair" dair and not "Levin" dair?

Or is it both?

Both. Almost every conceivable situation where you think 'I should (Levin) Dair' you should actually Elwind if you're off-stage, or Bair if you're on-stage. Thing is laggy as HELL and has no AC window.

Really? Could you elaborate on what kind of specific situation makes U-Tilt a good move?

Though, to be fair, D-Air does work for spiking (but it's not really helpful outside of that).

Is someone RIGHT above you? Do you need to hit them? Would U-Smash (frame 12) be too slow?

You should use U-tilt. Frame 6. It's excellent for its specific purpose as an anti-air.

 

[Mac2492]

More possible 1.0.4 changes:
1) Firewall's size.
2) Usmash speed.
I won't say whether they were increased or decreased to reduce confirmation bias. Can you guys also test these moves?

I still believe that Dair is a valuable tool, primarily after a single jump. It's not really "Dair or Elwind" when you can Jump-Dair-Jump-Elwind for effectively two attempts at a spike and a safe recovery. Elwind launches you way too high on a whiff to be purely better than Dair as a spike.

A held Wind Jab might be viable as a catching tool on opponents in the air or on the ledge. Instead of using it out of jab (unreliable with DI) perhaps the variable duration and fairly powerful last hit can be used for mind-games. Again, I'm suggesting starting the jab early and timing the release. Imo this seems too obvious but it's worth trying.

I think we should start looking into Robin's book play more thoroughly as well. Some possible tricks:
1) Edge-guarding like Diddy's bananas, especially with stalled item drops. We might also find more techniques in stalling drops such as stalling the stall or carpet bombing in the air.
2) Timing a book discard as an off-stage attack such that the book hits even if the attack misses. This is most viable when timing an aerial with Levin Sword's discard. Also possible with Elwind but risky as hell. Uncharged Thunder (esp. Speed) works decently but it's difficult to keep track of Thunder charges that accurately.

 

[Raziek]

U-Smash seems exactly the same to me. Testing with my two 3DS side by side, one is on 1.03.

Firewall ALSO seems exactly the same.

Edit: Can confirm F-tilt whiffbox still exists as well.

 

[Raziek]

Confirmed Robin buff:

You can now grab the ledge backwards during Elwind.

Thanks to @ Ultimastrike for prompting me to test it.

 

[False Sense]

Confirmed Robin buff:

You can now grab the ledge backwards during Elwind.

Thanks to @ Ultimastrike for prompting me to test it.

YES!

You have no idea how many times I've died because of that...

 

[MindlessFire]

So basically they took out an exploit that nobody ever used and and fixed a glaring flaw in his recover move? We'll probably see more people edgeguarding and attempting to spike more with Elwind.

 

[Blueman12]

If it's one if your least used moves, you're probably not using it right, or you're fighting a lot of short characters.

It has a very specific job, and it does that job EXTREMELY well.

Dair though. Dair is our most useless move.

Agreed. Despite Levin meteor its got too much landing lag to just throw out there. If it could autocancel in a shorthop that'd be nice :3 Although i personally think that its a decent edgeguard move with bronze sword KB.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Should we check our throw setups to see if anything's changed now that regular DI is back?

Robin's throws may not true combo into anything, but with the lack of vectoring, we could check to see if we can set up frame traps.

 

[Raziek]

Should we check our throw setups to see if anything's changed now that regular DI is back?

Robin's throws may not true combo into anything, but with the lack of vectoring, we could check to see if we can set up frame traps.

Who wait what? Where did you hear this?

 

[Hong]

Indeed. First I've heard of this.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Who wait what? Where did you hear this?

It was found a little over half an hour ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/community-patch-notes-v1-0-4.378404/page-44

Mario lives on Mute City until 134% from hitting the track in 1.0.3 by holding the Circle Pad down, but in 1.0.4, it has no effect.

 

[Raziek]

It was found a little over half an hour ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/community-patch-notes-v1-0-4.378404/page-44

Mario lives on Mute City until 134% from hitting the track in 1.0.3 by holding the Circle Pad down, but in 1.0.4, it has no effect.

Mario's weight changed, and there is no other corroborating information to verify this. Are you certain this has been tested thoroughly?

 

[Hong]

Interesting.

Well, if we were to be honest, Robin always favoured killing from the top, no? If this is true, it's a big buff to characters who typically scored vertical KOs, and Robin is one of the best in the business.

Edit -

Mario's weight changed, and there is no other corroborating information to verify this. Are you certain this has been tested thoroughly?

Well, on the next page, they specifically feature the fact Mario can't hold up to kill himself sooner anymore, either. If Mario was any lighter, he should die sooner, correct?

 

[PK Gaming]

Now that Vectoring has been removed/nerfed significantly, has anyone looked into downthrow? It might be easier to follow up now.

EDIT: Ahahahaha, beaten by Sonic Storm

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Sweet sweet improvements. I'm really happy with removal of vectoring and Elwind being more reliable for recovery now.

 

[slimjim]

Now that Vectoring has been removed/nerfed significantly, has anyone looked into downthrow? It might be easier to follow up now.

Well similar to before 1.04 but with increased reliability:
1) At low%, downthrow to shorthop bronzeFair to dtilt/jab works superb. (Chrombos?)
2) At 10-20%ish or on larger characters, downthrow to fullhop bonzeFair to nair is real.
3) Our fastfalling a LevinUair into them at low% into up-tilt is now a true combo.
edit: From 0-40%, bronzeUair true combos into up-tilt.
4) Aerial into another aerial is now better obviously so huzzah!
5) I've noticed nair gimps are now slightly better due to lack of vectoring.
6) Arcthunder/Arcfire to Nosferatu seems easier to connect. Probably I'm just better now though.

WOW 7) Approaching arcfire into fullhop arcfire into tipper Usmash is sooooo goooooood. Does 35-41%, killing midweights from 80, heavies from around 105. Doesn't work on all characters, so when in doubt, use arcfire arcfire LevinUair.
(Note: YES the training mode qualifies this as a true 18-hit combo for 40% on Sonic)

Can anyone check if arcfire endlag got lessened or if we got some IASA frames or something, because all of a sudden it seems easier to combo out of...

 

[Ultimastrike]

Also guys, in the Wii U version the books he drops are more noticable now since the vivid colors(purple, green, red, and yellow) show it. However, when thrown they're pretty much like how they were in the 3DS Version.

 

[Ultimastrike]

Well similar to before 1.04 but with increased reliability:
1) At low%, downthrow to shorthop bronzeFair to dtilt/jab works superb. (Chrombos?)
2) At 10-20%ish or on larger characters, downthrow to fullhop bonzeFair to nair is real.
3) Our fastfalling a LevinUair into them at low% into up-tilt is now a true combo.
edit: From 0-40%, bronzeUair true combos into up-tilt.
4) Aerial into another aerial is now better obviously so huzzah!
5) I've noticed nair gimps are now slightly better due to lack of vectoring.
6) Arcthunder/Arcfire to Nosferatu seems easier to connect. Probably I'm just better now though.

WOW 7) Approaching arcfire into fullhop arcfire into tipper Usmash is sooooo goooooood. Does 35-41%, killing midweights from 80, heavies from around 105. Doesn't work on all characters, so when in doubt, use arcfire arcfire LevinUair.
(Note: YES the training mode qualifies this as a true 18-hit combo for 40% on Sonic)

Can anyone check if arcfire endlag got lessened or if we got some IASA frames or something, because all of a sudden it seems easier to combo out of...

1) I'll have to test this out myself.
2) Test this as well.
3) That's something that is just a landing trap set-up, not exactly a true combo.
4) It's moreover the same as it was in the 3DS version.
5) Of course. Though people who know about DI can be smart about it.
6) It probably is you're better at it...though I'm a tad curious on this subject: Is Arcfire's hitbox increased in the Wii U version?
7) Training Mode doesn't mean that you'll be able to pop it out twice on the fly then LSUAir them easily, considering with human opponents they'll DI out of it most of the time if they can, though as a note Arcfire x2 is risky and hard to pull off. You'd be safer with Arcfire -> UAir, which still gives good % on them.

 

[slimjim]

It's not about % though, it's about having an earlier kill setup that hit-confirms off of a situational side-b. Of course one arcfire to uair is safer and more consistent (and should be the go-to followup for sure), I'm just letting you guys know it's inescapable for some characters, and can net an earlier kill if you have the input consistency to pull it off on the fly. :D

Note: I've tested it against some other tournament-level melee players in the wiiU version yesterday. Works, though it has a very VERY specific timing and range window. So does anything in melee though, so it's not too hard to learn.

EDIT: And my #3 is actually a true combo, not just a landing trap. Works in training mode as well as I tested it on humans. Thanks for the input on the post!

 

[JaidynReiman]

I played a bit of Robin last night, but I'm going to try some other characters now. I like the feel of Robin, the main issue I have is the GamePad itself.

 

[Centicerise]

According to the Wii U tips, Robin's Levin Sword will regenerate faster when you smash repeatedly with the bronze sword when it's down. Can this be tested?

EDIT: One of the tips says robin can regenerate tomes and levin sword faster if its used up and he KO's someone too. Also apparently landing your final smash regenerates all tomes and levin sword.

 

[Raziek]

According to the Wii U tips, Robin's Levin Sword will regenerate faster when you smash repeatedly with the bronze sword when it's down. Can this be tested?

EDIT: One of the tips says robin can regenerate tomes and levin sword faster if its used up and he KO's someone too. Also apparently landing your final smash regenerates all tomes and levin sword.

I will test these out.

 

[Raziek]

According to the Wii U tips, Robin's Levin Sword will regenerate faster when you smash repeatedly with the bronze sword when it's down. Can this be tested?

EDIT: One of the tips says robin can regenerate tomes and levin sword faster if its used up and he KO's someone too. Also apparently landing your final smash regenerates all tomes and levin sword.

Update: Have tested.

The KO'ing opponents thing seems to be false. Nosferatu's respawn time didn't change with a kill compared to without.

The spamming Smashes thing DOES seem to be true, but it only reduced it by about 1 second. Not worth it at all.

Final Smash refreshing is true.