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Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
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Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
You do need them, but you just have to update the existing ones. No need to remake one for japan, usa etc that is made for switch cartridges.
And even so, with what's around it (camelot delay since their last game etc), it's unlikely to be just an Eshop version of the gba games. I mean come on, stop being so obtuse guys.
There's literally nothing obtuse about how you're being needlessly aggressive, especially as I'm pretty sure fogbadge objected to the idea that any game only needs a single year of dev time at most these days, Camelot probably split up into teams during mid to late development on titles so the other team could start working on the next, not literally only having a single year to make an entire game, that just doesn't happen these days.
Key word being "trademark" and not "copyright" like you just stated. New trademarks include all the regions of interest, and it's up to said regions to accept or reject.
My mistake then, the two are often used together so I must have mixed them up
 

tbuster766

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
302
There's literally nothing obtuse about how you're being needlessly aggressive, especially as I'm pretty sure fogbadge objected to the idea that any game only needs a single year of dev time at most these days, Camelot probably split up into teams during mid to late development on titles so the other team could start working on the next, not literally only having a single year to make an entire game, that just doesn't happen these days.

My mistake then, the two are often used together so I must have mixed them up
All good :) Same reason people may tend to confuse renewals and filing new trademarks as being synonymous at times. It doesn't help when sites tend to lump them together.
 

Kalaam

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2018
Messages
808
Location
France
There's literally nothing obtuse about how you're being needlessly aggressive, especially as I'm pretty sure fogbadge objected to the idea that any game only needs a single year of dev time at most these days, Camelot probably split up into teams during mid to late development on titles so the other team could start working on the next, not literally only having a single year to make an entire game, that just doesn't happen these days.
We know the main team left Aces mid/late 2017. Since then we should have had an announcement. A Golf game is not that long to developp especially since they have the engine from Aces.
Ok, I got angry, I apologize.
But you have to admit that all of this doesn't mean nothing. Why would they get new trademarks worldwide, and take that long to announce their next game.
Unless it's the most ambitious golf game ever (which, btw, we have no trademark related to a mario golf) and the trademark for GS is just a diversion ?
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,412
Waluigi

Chance: 0%
Can we please stop pretending this guy still has a chance? He was literally one of the first Assist Trophies revealed for Ultimate, way back at E3. Since then, literally NOTHING has changed for him. In fact, we got a POTTED PLANT before this guy. That alone should show just how low of a priority he is.
Want: 0%
sigh I just KNOW I'm gonna make a lot of people upset. Waluigi has no reason to even exist. The only reason he DOES exist is because Camelot felt Wario needed a Tennis partner, when they easily could've used a pre-established character, like how Daisy became Peach's partner. And yet, for LITERALLY NO REASON, the internet has decided he is one of the greatest creations of all time, and anybody who DOESN'T think that deserves to suffer a million deaths and then some. Like, of all the video game characters in the world to choose as that, they chose this purple, lanky abomination of a thing? NO, I will NOT stand for it.

Isaac
Chance: 0%
I've thought about it a lot, and... I'm sorry, but I don't see it. I don't see how Assist Trophies are suddenly eligible just because of a few DLC Mii Costumes: wouldn't that hurt their chances even more? Plus, that copyright stuff doesn't mean anything. It's happened plenty of times before, just look at Eternal Darkness. And if I'm being honest, the fact that Camelot hasn't done ANYTHING since Tennis is more concerning than reassuring. We've already lost AlphaDream and Skip, so I can't help but fear the worst.

Abstain on want. I've never played Golden Sun.

Nominations: [Rerate] Monokuma xhowever many noms I got
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
22,805
Location
Scotland
If you guys don't want to acknowledge new information that has been researched thoroughly, it's ok. But just admit that you just don't want the character in and rate their chances with your want score.
want has got nothing to do with this, you may notice that I gave him quite a high want. This is about assuming a new game is coming before it’s announced based on something which could just as easily be for preventing other people from using it as it could be for something new.

edit: ok your last post came up while I was typing. I’m just trying to urge caution
 
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Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
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Messages
63,982
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Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
We know the main team left Aces mid/late 2017. Since then we should have had an announcement. A Golf game is not that long to developp especially since they have the engine from Aces.
Ok, I got angry, I apologize.
But you have to admit that all of this doesn't mean nothing. Why would they get new trademarks worldwide, and take that long to announce their next game.
Unless it's the most ambitious golf game ever (which, btw, we have no trademark related to a mario golf) and the trademark for GS is just a diversion ?
My point is that I'll believe it when I see it. I, and many others, don't like trying to tie unknown projects that we don't have details on. Assuming this all ends up paying off, it doesn't tell us anything, is it a new game or a remake? Will it come out this year, next year or has it been cancelled behind the scenes? It doesn't help that Nintendo has at least 4 projects that were announced yet we have next to nothing in details. Pikmin 4 was 'almost finished' in 2015, Bayonetta 3's development was 'very good', SMTV had complete radio silence for 3 years since it's announcement and it's been half a year since we got info on it and Prime 4's gone through radio silence after the cancellation and restart on development, which happened after Nintendo stated 'development is going well'. Granted, Nintendo's full role in 2 of them isn't entirely known beyond funding but you get the point. It's also why I don't like speculating on a BotW2 rep. I guess precedence leads to pesimism, though Isaac always gets high scores at the end of the day so no need to worry about the end result of this forum game
 

Louie G.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
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9,869
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Rhythm Heaven
But just admit that you just don't want the character in and rate their chances with your want score.
Before I write my rating, I have to say how this is such an immature way of coming about this. Isaac is a widely accepted request and a beloved one at that, a character many people agree should have been here a long time ago, so no I don't think there's a whole lot of bias against one of Smashboards' darlings of over ten years. This is an awful way of deflecting arguments and a very weak "gotcha".

A trademark means very little and I would have assumed literally everyone in the community has picked up on that by now after the countless times people go their hopes up over random trademarks that amounted to nothing. And I won't be mad if somehow Golden Sun does get a game, I'd be quite happy actually, but if that's your major source of evidence - leaning on something that hasn't been properly announced yet - it's nobody's fault for not wanting to put that much stock in a theory and a hypothetical. Because that's all it is right now.

I could just as easily say "just admit you want the character too much to look at this objectively and give them a 100% want". It's okay to acknowledge barriers toward your most wanted characters. I will readily and frequently admit the unlikelihood of two of my MWs, one of them (a Rhythm Heaven character) which is in a VERY similar boat to Isaac on several fronts, because I've accepted the circumstances but still hope for the best. I'm not telling you to give up but learning to understand the very clear reasons why people disagree with you would be beneficial.
 
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YoshiandToad

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 24, 2001
Messages
7,123
Location
Still up Peach's dress.
Let us not go to Camelot...'Tis a silly place.
Chwaaaance: 0.5%

Chance...saac?: 0.5%

Assist Trophy rule might be a load of old bull****, but it's one of the few rules that seem to be still standing. Had Spring Man, the character with the best chance due to being ARMS' poster boy, managed to make it in, we'd be rating these two much higher but...err...he didn't, so whatcha gonna do?

That said I think both have a decent chance for the next Smash; Waluigi has the vocal outcry that even Nintendo acknowledged, and modern day popularity, whilst Golden Sun tends to be one of the few Nintendo IPs to have a very passionate fanbase behind it.

If true, that's genuinely great news about Golden Sun, but I'll save my celebrations for it's revival WHEN it's announced and official. Besides which if it's announced even as early as Monday, at this point it shouldn't affect Fighters Pass Vol. 2 anyway. Unless we get a vol. 3 I don't see it happening.

That .5% is there because I think they're two of the only Assists that could be possibly upgraded if Sakurai does want to break that fan rule. But I'm leaning heavily towards it not happening.

Waaaaaaaa-nt: 60%
A confession: I quite like Waluigi. His design is actually great IMO, and he's a lot of silly fun. However I have bigger personal wants regarding Smash, namely Toad and/or Captain Toad each with a Toadette alt who have their own spinoff, and overall a lot more importance to the Super Mario brand than Waa does. For Ultimate I was really hoping we'd get a Toad(Captain or otherwise) AND Waluigi, but both their hopes got dashed in the very first presentation with Toad stapled to Peach and later Daisy and Waluigi immedietly after as an assist trophy.
Instead of these two pretty cool dudes we got the least diverse echo ever in Daisy, and Plant a gag character that I honestly think plays far too clunkily for my tastes. A real pity.

Unfortunately for Waluigi, I am also of the opinion that he needs to break in to the big time first and both Captain Toad and Paper Mario even have their own games and cannot get in yet. I don't think Nintendo will care if they choose to add him next time, but they also don't seem to care enough to have him even cameo in a Super Mario title unlike the likes of Toadette or even Daisy in Super Mario Run(which yes, Nintendo apparently count as a mainline game in Japan).

At least put him in the next Warioware title for goodness sake.

...(Want): 80%
Golden Sun is a beloved RPG series that died a premature death. It also didn't sell great(not bad, just not great) which didn't help, but the fanbase for it is incredibly passionate.

I'm not huge on tradtional JRPGs myself(or even JRPGs in general quite honestly), but it is one of the more beloved series to not yet have a fighter(alongside Rhythm Heaven) and it's very dear to my little sibling's heart so I'll give it a big boost for those factors.

Plus Isaac does have a pretty cool skill set using Venus Psynergy(aka Earth magic) and of course his utility psynergy of Move(as seen in the assist trophy) and Retreat which could be used to help him teleport all over the stage if translated to Smash.

Yeah. I'd never play it myself knowing my own personal tastes, but it'd be nice to see Golden Sun get revived to stand alongside Xenoblade and Fire Emblem as part of a Nintendo JRPG trifecta, with each series fulfilling a different niche be it strategy(FE), traditional(GS) or action(XBC).
 
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SharkLord

Smash Hero
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Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,724
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Pangaea, 250 MYA
Hoo boy...
Eh, might as well. What have I got to lose?
Isaac
We've gone over this guy a lot lately, so I'm gonna summarize the points best I can.
  • Popularity. Isaac's a pretty popular request, consistently doing well on polls despite Golden Sun's dormancy. I believe I heard Nintendo's actually aware of the backlash towards his AT, though I've been meaning to double-check this one; Don't quote me on this. Still, he's pretty darn popular. This is important because twice now we've had characters who got in mainly through popularity despite being largely irrelevant in modern times: K. Rool for the base game and Banjo for FP1. I think we'll get one more major fan-favorite before the day is done.
  • Assist Trophies? Don't think they deconfirm. It's been two years since the base game, Spirits have been promoted, and there's a toggle to turn them off. Shouldn't be too hard to add one in, and either way I don't think Nintendo cares too much about them anyways. The main issue is that each of the ATs have their own hurdles to overcome, and only a select few are viable. Two ATs who may have had a chance were deconfirmed over the course of FP2; Let's talk about those.
    • Spring Man - This one is simple: Yabuki wanted Min Min. There isn't any hidden agenda or deeper meaning; Sakurai asked the developer, the developer said everyone was viable, and then specified his favorite. They could've flat-out stated that Spring Man was unavailable because of his AT, but they didn't; They just pointed out he seems like the protagonist, but then noted that ARMS had an ensemble cast. That's it.
    • Bomberman - This guy's kinda divisive; From what I've seen, he either makes or breaks the AT argument because of how similar the Mii is. Personally, I'm on the former side; With how similar he is to the AT, clearly Sakurai has no compunctions about multiple Bombermans (Bombermen?) running around the screen.
      Aside from that, this was the second time they had a chance to explicitly shoot down ATs, but they didn't. They didn't say "Bomberman can't be a fighter because of his Assist Trophy, but at least he has a costume!" No, they just said "He has an Assist Trophy, and now he has a Mii Costume too!"
  • Trademark? I buy it. Non-renewal, failed twice but finally got submitted after two years, Mario Golf shouldn't take so long to make. Though, I must also add that Isaac wouldn't be added to push a new Golden Sun game; AT least, not to a major extent. He's still be a popularity pick in spite of the new installment, much like Ridley. There's also the sad timeline where we do get the remake/sequel, only to have them brushed aside for a Spirit Event. The main thing is that it seems Nintendo still cares about the Golden Sun brand, perhaps enough to grant the fan's wishes.
Isaac's main issue is that Golden Sun just hasn't seen much usage as of late, which severely hampers his advantages. As such, I grant him a rating of 40%. Things aren't lining up perfectly for him, but there's just enough room to squeeze by.

Want is 70%. Golden Sun looks pretty cool, Isaac's got a pretty nice design, and an a fighter who manipulates the earth and controls the stage sounds pretty fun. I'm all for him.

Side note, I've noticed some "I'm right, you're not, accept you're wrong" attitudes from both sides. Can't say I really appreciate that. I'll gladly listen to any points that are made, but I'm sure there's a nicer way of getting them across.
 

Pillow

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
1,268
Location
Los Angeles
Chance for Both: 0%
Not much for me to say here. I firmly believe AT's won't get promoted to playable characters within the same game.

Waluigi Want: 5%
This character is just a bad meme to me. Gave him 5% because I legitimately think he'd be pretty fun to play, but he's just not that important of a character in my eyes. He only shows up in mario spinoff games, which are important games to be sure, but they're still Mario games. If it was called Waluigi's Wacky Races instead of Mario Kart, then sure yeah.

Isaac Want: 30%
I don't really have much attachment to this character one way or another. I've never played Golden Sun, and he's just another anime JRPG hero to me. Bumped up score because I legitimately do feel for his fans who've been wanting him in the game for such a long time. Other than that, if we really do need another JRPG rep (and I don't think we do) I think Tales or Ys are bigger more important names that fit into the current Smash roster better.





We know the main team left Aces mid/late 2017. Since then we should have had an announcement. A Golf game is not that long to developp especially since they have the engine from Aces.
Ok, I got angry, I apologize.
But you have to admit that all of this doesn't mean nothing. Why would they get new trademarks worldwide, and take that long to announce their next game.
Unless it's the most ambitious golf game ever (which, btw, we have no trademark related to a mario golf) and the trademark for GS is just a diversion ?
A trademark could mean literally anything, including nothing. Maybe they're planning to revive the series, maybe they're just renewing in case they ever decide they want to revive the series, maybe they're making a golden sun phone gacha game instead of a new main title. In general, I don't even get my hopes stuff for things that are already announced, so I wouldn't get my hopes up for something like this.
 
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Kalaam

Smash Ace
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Sep 7, 2018
Messages
808
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France
A trademark could mean literally anything, including nothing. Maybe they're planning to revive the series, maybe they're just renewing in case they ever decide they want to revive the series, maybe they're making a golden sun phone gacha game instead of a new main title. In general, I don't even get my hopes stuff for things that are already announced, so I wouldn't get my hopes up for something like this.
A new trademark isn't a renewal. At the minimum it means a Golden Sun game for switch is in development (since it doesn't fit the categories for mobile games).
 

Pillow

Smash Lord
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Jan 20, 2013
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Los Angeles
A new trademark isn't a renewal. At the minimum it means a Golden Sun game for switch is in development (since it doesn't fit the categories for mobile games).
It's not renewal, but from my understanding they were filing in areas where GS was never trademarked, so they're just getting prepped in case they want to re-use the IP.

Generally when filing a trademark you want to get it for as wide a useage as possible. I didn't look at the Golden Sun trademark, and I don't speak Japanese, but I doubt they'd classify the TM in a way that would exclude them from making a mobile game. It does not mean that a Golden Sun game for the Switch is in development. Feel free to disagree, but you're only setting yourself up for disappointment if a new Golden Sun is never announced.
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
22,805
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Scotland
I quite like Waluigi.
TRAITOR!

wait did i make that joke last time

A new trademark isn't a renewal. At the minimum it means a Golden Sun game for switch is in development (since it doesn't fit the categories for mobile games).
or they sont want anyone else to use it like when game freak trademarked things like pokemon purple and pokemon brown
 

Louie G.

Smash Hero
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Aug 21, 2013
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9,869
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Rhythm Heaven
Well before I get into the characters individually, I'll highlight the elephant in the room. Both of these characters are Assist Trophies, which there is currently no precedent for being promoted within the same game they were featured. Although it does not mean this can't happen. If DLC was truly decided past the base game decision and development process, it's certainly possible that they could fall back on an AT character and simply change their mind. I'm skeptical of this in general at this point as I believe many DLC characters were planned ahead of time and as such would have been held off from an AT role, but nonetheless the possibility is there. I can't tell you how likely it is but I think it's nonzero...

but it's also safe until further notice to abide by what has been currently established. DLC has been breaking down barriers left and right, but it doesn't mean that EVERY barrier will be broken. ATs still have a noticeable amount of effort put into them in a way that seeks to properly represent a character as much as possible in a non-playable role. I think the community is way more dismissive of the significance of ATs than they should be, since the fact that some of these characters and series are ATs at all is a love letter in and of itself. Not everyone can make it after all. So anyway:

WALUIGI

CHANCE - 7%
I think if any AT were to get promoted, Waluigi is the safest bet. His popularity and demand eclipses everyone else's to the point that Nintendo acknowledged that demand themselves. He's a very prominent Nintendo character who could easily be slipped in last minute if they felt so inclined. If theoretically Nintendo wanted to tack on a few extra characters as standalone DLC I feel Waluigi would be one of the more obvious options to go with. The score remains low because there's nothing that implies this will happen. Score is a little higher than a character like this would normally receive because he is probably the single most popular first party character remaining.

I do feel Waluigi takes a hit from the fact that Mario's anniversary celebration is nearly complete. If there was any time to reveal a new Mario character it probably would have been during this event, and probably before that Mario tournament too. Kinda arbitrary but I wouldn't count on any more Mario characters right now. I suppose he doesn't bring a lot of exciting new material with him either, as Mario is very sufficiently represented as is and may not be suited for a full Challenger Pack's worth of content... but I suppose there's a lot of Mario Party stuff missing, so that's something.

WANT - 70%
I really like Waluigi, I think his character is endearing for the same reason many people seem to resent him. He's somewhat of a loser and a bit of a joke, and that gives him a lot of appeal that makes him fun to imagine in Smash. He's just got a whole lot of character and I'd like to see how his weird moveset would play out or how he would bounce off the rest of the roster. I would see myself really enjoying playing as him - the score isn't higher simply because I feel the last three characters should be able to bring more new content to the table.

ISAAC

CHANCE - 2%
As much as I think this over I can't really see any feasible scenario where we get Isaac. The fact that his AT has finally returned with a fresh coat of paint and that he got a Mii Costume already says to me that Sakurai has acknowledged his demand to the best of his ability at this point in time. Hopefully his support will persist into the next game (whenever that is). Or yknow, a proper revival of his series wouldn't hurt.

If, as some people are saying here, a new Golden Sun game was to release sometime soon I suppose there would be more incentive to push Isaac. I'm not factoring this into my score because there is no confirmation that this exists, and even if it does - at this stage of development it may have come too late. Golden Sun being revived would be great for Isaac's future but unfortunately even if these rumors come to fruition it does nothing to guarantee his playability in Ultimate. As of now there's little that puts Isaac in any better a position than like... Starfy or Saki (who doesn't even have an AT anymore, so there's an even stronger case to be made there). Aside from the significant fan demand, which is notable but as I said I feel we've already seen acknowledged.

WANT - 60%
I like Isaac and I want to see a bunch of lesser or forgotten Nintendo IPs make their Smash debut someday. Isaac has always been a favorite of the community, which I can understand given his very cool repertoire of abilities. His potential is clear and Golden Sun is charming from what I've experienced. Granted there are other Nintendo IPs I'd like to see first (to be honest, it would sting a bit to have Golden Sun take priority over Rhythm Heaven) but I'd consider Isaac to be a great addition in his own right.

PREDICTIONS:
Master Chief - 10.25%
Kratos - 4.5%

NOMINATIONS: BILLY & JIMMY LEE x5
 
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Kalaam

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2018
Messages
808
Location
France
It's not renewal, but from my understanding they were filing in areas where GS was never trademarked, so they're just getting prepped in case they want to re-use the IP.

Generally when filing a trademark you want to get it for as wide a useage as possible. I didn't look at the Golden Sun trademark, and I don't speak Japanese, but I doubt they'd classify the TM in a way that would exclude them from making a mobile game. It does not mean that a Golden Sun game for the Switch is in development. Feel free to disagree, but you're only setting yourself up for disappointment if a new Golden Sun is never announced.
You don't just waste money "just in case". They already own the trademarks.
 

Ridrool64

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
1,398
Location
New Jersey
The Second Banana's Second Banana. The understudy of the Eternal Understudy. The Luigi of Wario, the Wario of Luigi.

Chance: 50%. Again, I think of Waluigi as an exception to my usual criteria. If his content disconfirms him, that's it game over. Waluigi isn't coming. If it doesn't, he's assuredly in. His advantages overwhelm his disadvantages too heavily besides his Assist Trophy. Much like Rex, I consider Waluigi the yardstick to measure Assist Trophies by since he has the most fan demand of any first party (I think this could've been even before Ridley and K. Rool happened, but definitely after they got in) and it spreads much further than sites like here (where I noticed he tends to underperform).

Want: 60%. Mostly for the Waluigi war to end. The pro side will be sated while the anti side will get over it. I do like the character but at this point seeing the same circular argument over and over is annoying.

And... not this AGAIN.

Chance: 0.2%. I'll believe it when I see it. Until a new game is actually proven to genuinely exist beyond things that have busted people's hopes over and over many other times, I will not factor in a new game to Isaac's chances. As a result, from Nintendo's perspective (players and Sakurai alike may see differently, but we're not Nintendo), he's the poor man's Waluigi. I still think there's hope for Isaac (I think Geno is a borderline never ever at this point), but it's not very much and it's not for this game. Speaking of, Geno reflects a lot of why; Geno also overrelied on fan demand (from a specific subset of the fandom) to make up for having literally nothing else going for him, and in the end, it got him flayed for Gunner to wear his "skin" while somebody who was also popular, but also much more relevant, impactful and iconic outside of a relatively small sphere got included. I see Isaac as the first party equivalent to Geno in this regard, so I am very unconfident in him.

Then again, miracles do happen.

Want: 35%. I gave Golden Sun a shot a while back and I didn't really enjoy it. Plus fan creations exist that give me so good of an idea of what he'd play like that I don't have the need for an official inclusion. Still, he is somebody people want, even if that want is not as big as it first appears beyond sites like this.

TF2 x max, Chief will have believers because no Mii and nonbelievers because of Steve. Kratos is from Sony. C: 8.57%. K: 0.97%, a few non 0 scores.
 

Pillow

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
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Los Angeles
Sure.
But then it means Nintendo wants to do something with it.
You guys really want life to be boring and never turning up to anything good don't you ?._.
Here's the thing. It's not about what we want. I respect that you want Isaac in the game, and I hope you get your wish, but please try to look at the whole situation objectively.

You claiming filing for a new trademark is proof of a new golden sun game, when it is not proof at all. It indicates that they haven't completely forgotten that Golden Sun exists, nothing more. I don't know much about copyright law, but I do know a lot about the legal process. It is much cheaper for Nintendo to file for new trademarks when the time is due, than it is for them to litigate against any possible foreign entities trying to use their IP's.
 

Kalaam

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2018
Messages
808
Location
France
Here's the thing. It's not about what we want. I respect that you want Isaac in the game, and I hope you get your wish, but please try to look at the whole situation objectively.

You claiming filing for a new trademark is proof of a new golden sun game, when it is not proof at all. It indicates that they haven't completely forgotten that Golden Sun exists, nothing more. I don't know much about copyright law, but I do know a lot about the legal process. It is much cheaper for Nintendo to file for new trademarks when the time is due, than it is for them to litigate against any possible foreign entities trying to use their IP's.
If you pile up all circumstancial evidence it seems very likely that a new Golden Sun game is coming.
The longer Camelot spends without announcinga game, the more likely it is.
Giving 0% to characters is just as terrible objectively as giving 100%. This is what makes this thread so boring, nobody comes up with any decent explanation aside from "They won't happen, 0%" and no reasons as to why they "might" happen. Evenif it's like 10%.

Speculation is stale because of that, and it pains me to see what could be a great place for invested fans to share their research and opinions with a wider audience just getting brushed off as delusionals because you just think nothing will happen because... reasons.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
Super Camelot Bros.

I'll preface this by saying that Assist Trophies don't disconfirm. Very brave, I know. But yeah, unless Sakurai mapped out the next 7 years of everything Smash in 2015, and what he's stated points to him not doing that, then the only reason they should disconfirm is if Nintendo, who's choosing DLC nowadays, felt so beholden to old decisions that they were willing to leave money on the table. Is it possible that they considered a character and decided they were well enough as an AT? Of course. Possibility does not equal certainty. But just being considered means they aren't disconfirmed, even if we go through the entire Pass sans promotions.

With that out of the way, I think we have what are easily the two likeliest promotions now that Spring Man is KO. On one hand we have Waluigi, an iconic and mainstream famous character whose disconfirmation earned such an outcry that it earned reports from news outlets and a statement from the president of Nintendo of America. On the other we have Isaac, a perennial favorite in the Smash fandom who must have performed great in the Ballot.

Let's start with Waluigi. Everyone knows that Waluigi would be a huge deal. He's first party, too, so no licensing involved, it's all profit to the big N. With half the Pass out of the way it makes sense to have first parties now, and Waluigi is both first party and still E3 material. While there might be a problem filling in his pack with music and Spirits, I'm of the belief that the character comes first and the content isn't that important. I mean, we just had Sephiroth get music from a movie and a second stage from the exact same game - I guarantee that if someone had suggested Northern Crater beforehand it would've been dismissed as redundant. A good point against Waluigi however, is that he has no fans where it counts: Sakurai seems to see him as little more than a punchline, and we all know about Nintendo's editorial control concerning the Mario series. It's possible that given the backlash Sakurai changed his mind, or Nintendo saw the dollar signs and said **** it, but I'll admit that he's at a disadvantage right now. The Mario anniversary introduces another element, though I personally can't decide if it makes him an ideal March reveal or one that should have come already.

As for Isaac, well, what he has over Waluigi is that he brings a new series to Smash. There should be absolutely no issue building a worthwhile pack for Golden Sun as it has about as much content in the base game as ARMS. Isaac also makes sense for the later stages of the Pass as a nicher character, from a smaller franchise. I believe we're bound to get another "for the fans" pick like Banjo was, and with the puppet out of the game I think Isaac could very much be our hardcore pick. And, while I think Isaac could coast by with popularity alone, there's also rumblings of a future for Golden Sun.

Now, I think I ought to try and explain the whole trademark situation. I understand that Isaac fans are kind of tired of explaining it over and over again, the reason I'm explaining it is that it's probably going to be very debated and frankly it's the most boring thing to discuss so I hope this puts it to bed. At the same time, it's our jobs as Isaac fans to explain this patiently to others and not get riled up. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar and all that. Skepticism is a natural and healthy outlook when faced with this kind of thing. So, while I might not be the best person to explain this (I'm bound to use copyright and trademark interchangeably), this is my best attempt.

So, yeah, there have been new trademarks for Golden Sun. Not renewals, but new trademarks. From what I understand, trademarks require proof of usage, some kind of evidence that you're actually going to use it and aren't just trademarking willy-nilly. That would mean that they had to be working on something already. Other things of note include: the classification of the trademark, which is for cartridge-based software (basically, it's getting a physical release, so no eShop ports); it's called Golden Sun worldwide, instead of its Japanese name (which might imply a rebranding); it's been presented in territories that saw the original releases (so they could have renewed their old trademarks if it were to just rerelease the old games) and new territories (imo it would be weird to localize a game to new languages if it was just ports of old games for a franchise as niche as this); the trademarks failed and required new applications in several of the new territories, which were submitted and approved (this implies effort from Nintendo, so it's not a throwaway trademark). There has also been a new trademark submitted for Golden Sun: Dark Dawn (which also didn't need one as its original one was renewed in 2018 iirc). Can't recall if it had the same characteristics as the other one though I'm pretty sure it was also in new territories.

There's also Camelot's activity. We know from interviews that development of Aces ended in 2017, with only a small crew staying to work on DLC. It's now 2021 and we have no word on what they've been doing. Camelot has never taken this long to make a game, which leads many to believe that it's probably an ambitious endeavor (which, to be fair, doesn't automatically mean Golden Sun). COVID is also a factor to be considered here; personally I don't think a Mario sports game would have even required development from 2017 from 2020 so that shouldn't have affected it, but I figured I should mention it.

With all that, the prevailing theory is that there will be a Golden Sun remake comprising of the first two games (as they were meant to be released originally), followed by a remake or remaster of Dark Dawn. Of course, none of this makes it exempt from cancellation, as might very well have happened. Though I think the Dark Dawn trademark is from last year, and I don't think it would've been submitted without a certain amount of confidence in the other product hitting the market. At worst, the cancellation is a very recent happening.

Now, do I personally believe all this? Well, it's hard to and it's hard not to. I always thought the Switch was bound to get a good amount of franchise revivals, stuff like F-Zero and Advance Wars, so Golden Sun making a comeback isn't that farfetched a scenario to me. And I find the evidence compelling. But at the same time it feels impossible. It's Golden Sun coming back, you know? It's one of those things that feels like it exists moreso in the minds of fans than of executives. So I guess I do think it makes sense but I'm not getting hyped up about it until it happens.

You'll ask "would they add a character to promote a couple of remakes?" and the answer is absolutely not! Isaac will always get in first and foremost for his Smash support, game or no game. In fact, if the games do come they'll basically be as a result of Isaac's Smash fandom deciding to branch out into supporting GS in general with the letter campaigns and Golden Sundays. But I do think if Nintendo saw such a fanbase for the franchise that they decided to go forward with a revival, it would make a ton of sense to give the Smash fandom its main character and get praised for it while they're at it. Call it a boost moreso than a main reason.

Whew, this ended up being a very long post. I guess I'll give them both 33% chance because Waluigi's the frontrunner while Isaac's playing the spoiler that might just get ahead. And 100% want, what did you expect?

Noms: Marina x10 47 x10
Predictions: Chief 0% Kratos 6.7%
 

Pillow

Smash Lord
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If you pile up all circumstancial evidence it seems very likely that a new Golden Sun game is coming.
The longer Camelot spends without announcinga game, the more likely it is.
Giving 0% to characters is just as terrible objectively as giving 100%. This is what makes this thread so boring, nobody comes up with any decent explanation aside from "They won't happen, 0%" and no reasons as to why they "might" happen. Evenif it's like 10%.

Speculation is stale because of that, and it pains me to see what could be a great place for invested fans to share their research and opinions with a wider audience just getting brushed off as delusionals because you just think nothing will happen because... reasons.
Your claim was that the filing of the trademark was proof that a new Golden Sun game was coming on the Switch. I was just trying to point out that it wasn't. It has nothing to do with speculation. In fact, if asked, I'd say that the chances of a new Golden Sun game coming out to be pretty decent. But that's not what we were discussing, and speculation does not change facts.

If you're referring to my personal rating of Isaac's chances of getting into Ultimate, then I already gave the reason. I'll give every assist trophy a 0%, no matter how much I'd want them in the game. This is my personal belief, I'm not going to try to change anyone else's mind about this particular point.
 
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Kalaam

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France
If you're referring to my personal rating of Isaac's chances of getting into Ultimate, then I already gave the reason. I'll give every assist trophy a 0%, no matter how much I'd want them in the game. This is my personal belief, I'm not going to try to change anyone else's mind about this particular point.
So yeah, no objective reason to give 0 either. So you have no right to criticize my rating if your is based on nothing else but a belief in a fanrule.
 

Golden Icarus

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Waluigi
Chance: 5%

Isaac
Chance: 5%

I'm still operating under the assumption that this Fighters Pass is likely the end of DLC for Ultimate. And if numerous sources are to be believed, it appears that Sephiroth and Steve have been in the works for a long time; likely before Ultimate even released. If most, or all of FP2 was decided prior to Ultimate's release, then they probably wouldn't have prioritized characters that were already made into assists.

That said, I don't necessarily believe that being an assist deconfirms a character. If there is enough fan demand and a big enough push from Nintendo, then anything can happen. If a Golden Sun revival really is in the works, then putting Isaac in Smash to coincide with its release makes sense. Likewise, if the outcry over Waluigi's deconfirmation really was as big as it seemed, then I can see Nintendo wanting to make him playable. But if I'm being honest, Fighters Pass 3 or Smash 6 are probably both of their best bets.

Wahnt: 100%
I'm not sure if Smash could really have "too many Mario characters." It is the Nintendo franchise. Even a side character like Waluigi is more recognizable than someone like Olimar or Pit. He has plenty to pull from for a fantastic moveset and would make a ton of people extremely happy. While Toad is my preferred choice for a new Mario character, I think both would be perfect additions.

Isaac Want: 100%
He's still my most wanted character, ever. Has been for over a decade now. I love Golden Sun, I love Isaac's design, his moveset potential is through the roof (y'all know this dude's basically an earth bender right?), I want GS music in Smash, I want to see the lesser known Nintendo franchises get more attention, the list goes on. It's not even like Golden Sun is my favorite series ever, or even my favorite RPG ever. It's just that Isaac feels like he's built for Smash. He would be so ****ing cool.
 

Pillow

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A lot where disreguarding the trademark stuff and basically saying that it was not a valid reason.
This will be my last response, since I don't really want to clutter up this thread further than we already are. The trademark you mentioned is not a valid reason to assume Golden Sun is getting a new game.

A new trademark isn't a renewal. At the minimum it means a Golden Sun game for switch is in development (since it doesn't fit the categories for mobile games).
No one was trying to criticize you for thinking Isaac can get into Smash, they were just trying to correct you on this one particular point. A trademark means that Golden Sun might get a new game. But it trademark might not indicate anything at all. It is better to be pleasantly surprised, than to expect something to happen and be disappointed when it doesn't.

Min Min runs counter to that idea though.
But Min Min wasn't an assist trophy?
 
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SharkLord

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Plus, from what we've been told, FP2 was also decided based on FP1 sales.
Of course, they may very well lie to us, given that Steve is in FP2. But maybe not all were decided as early as base game.
Back in Byleth's trailer, Sakurai said he thought "One or two would suffice" regarding post-FP1 DLC. I think a couple characters were planned early on, but they added others after they decided to fill out a second pass.
 

Kalaam

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Back in Byleth's trailer, Sakurai said he thought "One or two would suffice" regarding post-FP1 DLC. I think a couple characters were planned early on, but they added others after they decided to fill out a second pass.
I would assume those two were Sephiroth and Steve. As they'd likely require more time for negotiation that would have happened with Banjo and Hero.
 

Golden Icarus

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Min Min runs counter to that idea though.
True. That's why I still believe it's possible for spirits and assists to become playable. My theory for Min Min is that she was the last Fighters Pass character decided on and was shoved to the front of the pass because of the Byleth backlash. However, I still feel that the remainder of the FP2 is likely characters in the Steve and Sephiroth vain - third-party characters that take a long time to negotiate and implement. There are only three slots left on the pass, and Lloyd, Arle, Crash, Hayabusa, Rayman, Monster Hunter, etc. all seem more likely to me. I'm practically convinced that a Tales character and Hayabusa are in, so that alone makes every other character less likely to me.

I would genuinely love to be wrong, though. If Isaac somehow squeaks in, I will lose my mind. It's just that a lot of things have to go right in order for him to somehow be a priority.
 

fogbadge

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Also about trademark: they had to defend their right to use it when registering it. They had to do it twice. So showing that they intended to use it, so they had to have something to prove it.
or showing they really don’t want anyone else to use it
 

Kalaam

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or showing they really don’t want anyone else to use it
Ok now you really are the one being delusional.

Are you saying it is more likely for nintendo to fabricate proof of intended use for a game they do not intend to make, so nobody can use that name, of a game they don't plan on making... than just nintendo making a new game from that franchise and trademarking it like any normal company would ?
 
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TCT~Phantom

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TCT~Phantom
So yeah, no objective reason to give 0 either. So you have no right to criticize my rating if your is based on nothing else but a belief in a fanrule.
I mean, it is their opinion at the end of the day. While fan rules don't always hold, this one has so far. While Isaac and Waluigi are prime for an upgrade, right now the fact they are ATs can be a hurdle in some people's eyes.

As for the trademark stuff, while there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest Camelot is working on something and that might be Golden Sun, it is not certain. The trademarks, while certainly a good sign something is happening with Golden Sun, could just be Nintendo protecting their IPs, which given their track record is an equally valid conclusion.

As the thread runner, I am gonna say that at this point this is getting a bit spammy and please relax a bit on this. When you start calling others delusional for a legitimately reasonable conclusion from the trademark information we have, I think it is time to take a step back.
 

ArkSPiTFirE

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Oct 18, 2018
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Well GoodGrief mentioned pretty much everything I have to say, and i've already rated both of these characters a few times now, so i'll make it short.

Waluigi Want: 40% - He'd be funny, but I'm not excited to play him.
Isaac Want: 100% - It's a given. he's been my most requested for at least 15 years now.

Waluigi Chance: FP2 - 5% / After FP2 - 30%
So what I mean by this is I don't think Waluigi is coming in FP2, mainly because I don't think he has enough to fill a pass. I'm sure Sakurai and his team could manage to bring in assests from loads of different games, but then there's more copyright issues. If you remember what he said about how difficult it is to get music when it's got loads of different copyright holders, it may have problems like that. What I truly beleive is his best chance is if he's just a last single fighter as a surprise at the end. I know a fighters pass 3 has not been announced and maybe not even thought about, but it would be such a funny send off to finish Ultimate with a Waaah.

Isaac Chance: 50%
My chance actually went down from last time as we've only got 3 spots left; not including post pass as I think Isaac has prime Fighter Pass assets. New stage for a new series, lots of banging Golden Sun music that's basically long overdue for a first party game. Did you know there's not a single track from the first game in Smash? It's really sad. But back to his chances, I am bias in the fact that being a big fan and Isaac being my most wanted contributes to a higher, possible unrealistic score. However, I am rating him based on his merits and I'm not considering Assist Trophies to be out (at this stage).

What goes against him is of course his lack of presence in the gaming scene right now. And if we assume that Nintendo is hoping to add characters from all sorts of genres to appeal to the most people, then I don't think we're going to see more than two JRPG characters in this pass. Since we've already got Sephiroth, then I think Isaac would still have to compete with Lloyd Irving and Rex as the next JRPG protagonist (I'm aware this isn't how at all works but I have to believe there's some variety planned).

But regardless of his relevance, he seems the most common sense Nintendo character to add at this point. I know there's a lot of discourse about the possibility of a new game coming, I'm not going to debate that, but if a new game is announced sometime this year then I expect a lot more eyes will be on Isaac to join the roster.

So much for keeping it short.
 
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GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
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Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
[Rerate] Monokuma x340
Concept: Characters that don't have games on Nintendo platforms x325
Qbby x320
Marina Liteyears x300
[Rerate] Neku x294
Concept: Among Us character x285
Beat (Jet Set Radio) x275

300 - 251

Mii Costume: Madeline x270
Henry Stickmin x265
Concept: A 4X strategy rep x255

250 - 201

[Rerate] Velvet Crowe x250
Worms x245
Crazy Dave x235
[Rerate] Concept: League of Legends rep x222

200 - 151

John Marston x200
Concept: Team Fortress 2 rep x200
Peppino (Pizza Tower) x177
Mike Haggar x170
Concept: Far Cry rep x164
Concept: A 3rd party company gets more than one fighter in the same pass x160
Tetra x155

150 - 101

Zagreus x145
Excitebiker x145
Mii Costume: Monika x135
Concept: Curly as Quote's alt/Echo x135
Agent 47 x135
Riptor x130
Concept: Miles Edgeworth as Phoenix Wright's Alt/Echo x120
Boss: Ender Dragon x118
D.Va x115
Boss: Rayquaza x115
Stage: Bowser's Castle x112
Concept: A BioShock protagonist x111
Mii Costume: 2B x110
Estelle Bright x110
Mii Costume: Alex Kidd x108
Kaede Akamatsu x105

100 - 51

Concept: A Challenger Pack with 2 Fighters x100
Senator Armstrong x95
Fulgore x94
Giygas x90
Junpei (Zero Escape) x81
Concept: Darksiders rep x80
Sackboy x80
Concept: More ATs as one new item x75
Dwight Fairfield (Dead by Daylight) x75
Concept: Rocket League rep x75
Echo (Bowser) x75
[Rerate] Concept: Any new Xenoblade character x75
[Rerate] Concept: New Zelda character x70
[Rerate] Carmen Sandiego x70
Trevor Philips x70
Ghirahim x60
Billy & Jimmy Lee x60
Echo (Olimar) x56
Concept: SNES-era Final Fantasy rep x55
Gooigi x55
Vi (Bug Fables) x55
Echo: Zeraora (Lucario) x55
[Rerate] Jin Kazama x55
Magolor x55
Jin Sakai x55
Rallen (Spectrobes) x55

50 - 25

Stage: Tetris x50
Ryza (Atelier) x45
Filia (Skullgirls) x31
Mii Costume: Zagreus x25
Concept: Large and Normal Final Destination made into separate stages x25

Under 25

Regigigas x20
[Rerate] Metal Sonic x20
[Rerate] Agumon x20
Yarn Yoshi x15
[Rerate] Shovel Knight x15
[Rerate] Zhao Yun x15
Tetris x10
Slash Kamei (Snowboard Kids) x10
[Rerate] Yuri Lowell x10
Jesse (Control) x10
Infernape x10
[Rerate] Louie x10
Concept: Danganronpa protagonist x10
Concept: Rocket League content x5
[Rerate] Thrall x5
[Rerate] Lara Croft x5
Stage: Tetris 99 x5
Concept: Raizing shmup rep x5
Donbe and Hikari x5
Soma Cruz x5
Concept: KOS-MOS with T-elos alt x5
[Rerate] Master Hand x5
[Rerate] Arthur x5
Pyramid Head x5
Firebrand x1

Mii Costume: Madeline and Concept: A 4X strategy rep conquer the 250 nom border.

Concept: A 3rd party company gets more than one fighter in the same pass crosses 150 noms.

But Min Min wasn't an assist trophy?
Spirit or Assist Trophy, if all of Ultimate's DLC had been planned from the get-go she wouldn't have been in the base game.
 

fogbadge

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Messages
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Ok now you really are the one being delusional.

Are you saying it is more likely for nintendo to fabricate proof of intended use for a game they do not intend to make, so nobody can use that name, of a game they don't plan on making... than just nintendo making a new game from that franchise and trademarking it like any normal company would ?
yes. theyve done it before https://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Nintendo_registers_swarm_of_Pokémon_trademarks

and dont call me delusional when mine theory is based on the same amount of evidence as yours
 
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