Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

[Calamitas]

Edit:
Accidentaly double post. Could a mod please delete?

 

[Proceleon]

First off, please never use the phrase "We all know" to start an argument as if everyone else already agrees with you on a subconscious level. It's just a tacky linguistic move.

They didn't plan wave two of DLC from the get-go. I don't see how the only thing that could make them upgrade a NPC to playable is promotional material, or else Lucas in Sm4sh has some explaining to do with Mother 3 having still not been localized. Also, would a non-spirit ARMS character have not been a "shill" pick in your mind?

Also, seriously, "deface"? Even if you don't care about ARMS, you can see the care put into this character. It's a really impressive moveset that uniquely transfers the feeling of playing ARMS into Smash.

You're more then entitled to dislike Min Min if you want, but please don't act like you're caring about the artistic nature of Smash Bros for it... Seriously, if ARMS is a shill pick, then any first-party IP that didn't fundamentally reshake the games industry and is still making Nintendo money is.

At least we know Lucas and Mewtwo were added back for the fans. This one? No way. No amount of "they didn't plan" will justify back-peddling. It's scummy they had to go back on a design decision they made at launch just for the sake of some DLC, and yes, that statement does go for Lucas and Mewtwo as well.

ah theres that spirit denier i was expecting

You say that like wanting to preserve a product's integrity is a bad thing. Sakurai should stay true to what he made and what he made was a Spirit.

 

[Heoj]

Satisfaction: 100%

Pretty obvious from my profile picture, but yeh, one of my most wanted who happens to boost genos chances even more. Pretty damn exciting overall, the Vault boy miii was kind of eh for me personally but it doesnt really matter. i havent bought this fighters pass but this definitely convinced me to buy it when minmin comes out.


People complaining about it being an upgrade is pretty cringe honestly, and you cant complain to yabuki since sakurai was already thinking about both minmin and ninjara so even if yabuki stayed silent we would have still gotten an upgrade.
The fact that sakurai didnt even really comment much on minmin being an upgrade just goes to show that he simply doesnt care. So stop filling your own ideals into sakurais work

 

[SharkLord]

if i might, i do believe people are allowed to decide who the main character of their own story, game, film, whatever is, so if the gut in charge says theres no single main character theres no single main character

Actually, the dev team considered Guile to be the hero of Street Fighter II, which is why he had a more personal relationship with Bison and became the hero of the movie and show. I'd presume Ryu became the face instead because he was easier to play and didn't make your friend hate you for spamming Flash Kick over and over again.

Alex was also going to be the hero of Street Fighter III, but the went nowhere because Ryu and Ken got more marketing.

 

[Jomosensual]

0%
Actually a waste of everyone's time, including the devs. Min Min was lucky to even have a Spirit, but to just U-turn on it because of corporate? No dignity, no respect for the product, no integrity. Does Sakurai not respect his own game so much he'd kneel to a shill pick yet again? You built that Spirit for a reason, sir, and you'd do well to not repeat that mistake again.

She do be lookin' kinda OP tho.

I'm expecting someone to call Geno a shill pick at this point

 

[PK-remling Fire]

Satisfaction Rating: 100%
I was fine with most ARMS fighters (aside from Helix, Master Mummy, and Byte and Barq) since their I find their arms mechanic interesting and I really love the character designs (except for the 3 above). I was just concerned how they were going to adapt Arms gameplay for Smash Bros, as their style of fighting doesn't seem that suited for smash.

That being said I was pretty surprised at how faithful Min Min is to her source game, especially with how her B-moves work and being able to toss out more than one arm at a time. I can tell that a lot of thought was put into her moveset and it honestly shows. Mechanically speaking, this was the perfect way to introduce an ARMS character into smash, and I'm heavily considering making her my secondary.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

At least we know Lucas and Mewtwo were added back for the fans. This one? No way. No amount of "they didn't plan" will justify back-peddling. It's scummy they had to go back on a design decision they made at launch just for the sake of some DLC, and yes, that statement does go for Lucas and Mewtwo as well.

You say that like wanting to preserve a product's integrity is a bad thing. Sakurai should stay true to what he made and what he made was a Spirit.

Product's integrity?

Super Smash Bros was never some grand artistic statement. It was a cool idea that became a major money-spinner without going completely down the drain quality wise like the COD games.

If the presence of a PNG is enough for you to declare months of lock-down work as "scummy" then I think you've got your priorities all mixed up.

 

[Proceleon]

I'm expecting someone to call Geno a shill pick at this point

Difference is Sakurai would actually want Geno. I almost feel bad that he was made to stick Arms in there by Nintendo.

 

[amageish]

At least we know Lucas and Mewtwo were added back for the fans. This one? No way. No amount of "they didn't plan" will justify back-peddling. It's scummy they had to go back on a design decision they made at launch just for the sake of some DLC, and yes, that statement does go for Lucas and Mewtwo as well.

You are really glossing over all the people pointing out how ARMS sold well and is popular, plus the fact Min Min is the most popular character in that game (roughly, but all the most popular characters were spirits anyway). Do those fans just not count in your standard of what constitutes "for the fans"?

As for the back-peddling... I just don't get why you think that is ammoral. They decided to represent a character as a NPC, but later decided to make them playable. Frankly, wouldn't it be worse if they purposefully decided to withhold potential base game content to make it paid DLC a year and a half later? This really strikes me as a "damned if you do; damned if you don't" situation which can be used to argue that any first-party could have been in the base game or should have been in the base game, ergo it's ammoral to make them DLC.

 

[Heoj]

Difference is Sakurai would actually want Geno. I almost feel bad that he was made to stick Arms in there by Nintendo.

Your still forcing your own ideals onto sakurai, you should probably reflect and rearrange your thoughts here. How can you tell that sakurai hated putting an arms character in smash.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Difference is Sakurai would actually want Geno. I almost feel bad that he was made to stick Arms in there by Nintendo.

You wot m8?

I know some people take any executive mandate as a direct attack on them as people but Sakurai isn't Van Gough or a Sitcom writer that deliberately makes the producer's favourite character unbearable. He's Sakurai. He has his own feelings about things, don't project.

 

[DaUsername]

For reference (and so other people don't have to dig through 50 pages), here's the chance/want scores for all the ARMS stuff we rated.

Spoiler: numbers

Min-Min: 54.16% Chance, 73.26% Want
Spring Man: 49.76% Chance, 62.54% Want
Ribbon Girl: 43.91% Chance, 57.15% Want
Ninjara: 30.33% Chance, 53.68% Want
Mechanica: 7.43% Chance, 39.71% Want
Master Mummy: 4.10% Chance, 31.88% Want
Twintelle: 25.68% Chance, 48.94% Want
Byte & Barq: 1.42% Chance, 44.50% Want
Kid Cobra: 4.64% Chance, 42.58% Want
Helix: 14.98% Chance, 51.00% Want
Max Brass: 31.39% Chance, 54.44% Want
Misango: 4.40% Chance, 27.95% Want
Dr. Coyle: 19.37% Chance, 54.61% Want
Lola Pop: 4.82% Chance, 50.71% Want
Springtron: 9.74% Chance, 19.95% Want
Concept: ARMS rep has different characters as alts: 33.71% Chance, 38.79% Want
Concept: Brand new ARMS character: 4.67% Chance, 6.48% Want

Min Min had both the highest chance and want scores, so it looks like we finally got something right!!1 I think she might be the highest or second highest rated DLC character, too, but I don't feel like digging for the other scores right now

 

[PK-remling Fire]

You say that like wanting to preserve a product's integrity is a bad thing. Sakurai should stay true to what he made and what he made was a Spirit.

Dude, you're more than welcome to hate Min Min if you want, but it's kind of ridiculous believing that adding in a popular character is a crime solely because the game already has a png file of said character. The spirit thing was never even an official rule, just something that fans made up.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Difference is Sakurai would actually want Geno. I almost feel bad that he was made to stick Arms in there by Nintendo.

Can we not pretend Sakurai is some massive Geno stan who suffers every time Nintendo wants him to work on a character who isn't him?

 

[Proceleon]

You wot m8?

I know some people take any executive mandate as a direct attack on them as people but Sakurai isn't Van Gough or a Sitcom writer that deliberately makes the producer's favourite character unbearable. He's Sakurai. He has his own feelings about things, don't project.

Not projecting, I wouldn't want Geno at all, but I'd at least understand Sakurai does or at least did want him, which I think is common knowledge by now. Everything about this situation says he really didn't have an interest in Arms beyond Spirits.
Just to be clear, I don't hate Min Min as a character or a Fighter, but going back on yourself after you've already put her in the game? Not a respectable decision from a development point of view.

Can we not pretend Sakurai is some massive Geno stan who suffers every time Nintendo wants him to work on a character who isn't him?

I merely acknowledged that it was stated, nothing more. Please don't put words in my mouth, they taste awful.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

For reference (and so other people don't have to dig through 50 pages), here's the chance/want scores for all the ARMS stuff we rated.

Spoiler: numbers

Min-Min: 54.16% Chance, 73.26% Want
Spring Man: 49.76% Chance, 62.54% Want
Ribbon Girl: 43.91% Chance, 57.15% Want
Ninjara: 30.33% Chance, 53.68% Want
Mechanica: 7.43% Chance, 39.71% Want
Master Mummy: 4.10% Chance, 31.88% Want
Twintelle: 25.68% Chance, 48.94% Want
Byte & Barq: 1.42% Chance, 44.50% Want
Kid Cobra: 4.64% Chance, 42.58% Want
Helix: 14.98% Chance, 51.00% Want
Max Brass: 31.39% Chance, 54.44% Want
Misango: 4.40% Chance, 27.95% Want
Dr. Coyle: 19.37% Chance, 54.61% Want
Lola Pop: 4.82% Chance, 50.71% Want
Springtron: 9.74% Chance, 19.95% Want
Concept: ARMS rep has different characters as alts: 33.71% Chance, 38.79% Want
Concept: Brand new ARMS character: 4.67% Chance, 6.48% Want

Min Min had both the highest chance and want scores, so it looks like we finally got something right!!1 I think she might be the highest or second highest rated DLC character, too, but I don't feel like digging for the other scores right now

To be fair we did well with K Rool, Isabelle, Simon, and Hero. But yeah Min Min was seen as the most likely and we did good there.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Not projecting, I wouldn't want Geno at all, but I'd at least understand Sakurai does or at least did want him, which I think is common knowledge by now. Everything about this situation says he really didn't have an interest in Arms beyond Spirits.
Just to be clear, I don't hate Min Min as a character or a Fighter, but going back on yourself after you've already put her in the game? Not a respectable decision from a development point of view.

I'm trying to parse your logic.
Are you saying he doesn't like ARMS because he didn't go through her Classic mode?

And you do know that there's different takes on being creative right? Some stick to their guns and others tweak constantly. You don't know the man, I don't know the man. Hate the decision all you want but don't speak for the guy.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Can we not pretend Sakurai is some massive Geno stan who suffers every time Nintendo wants him to work on a character who isn't him?

Are all Geno fans like that?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Satisfaction Rating: 100%

Death to the stupid and debilitating fan rules is always a good thing. And out of all the individual character picks they could have gone for Min-Min would have been my first choice. Many of the characters on my most wanted are now firmly back on the table as well.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Are all Geno fans like that?

Quite a surprising amount

 

[Proceleon]

I'm trying to parse your logic.
Are you saying he doesn't like ARMS because he didn't go through her Classic mode?

And you do know that there's different takes on being creative right? Some stick to their guns and others tweak constantly. You don't know the man, I don't know the man. Hate the decision all you want but don't speak for the guy.

What? No, he obviously only thought Arms was deserving of Spirits for whatever reason, otherwise they'd have joined earlier. Many said they seemed like base roster characters and if Sakurai felt the same he would've done so. It would've been more respectable for him to make a decision and stick with it.
If you're gunning for a Spirit, good for you, I'd have some picks for that timeline too, but this U-turn is just not a respectable move on anyone's part.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

What? No, he obviously only thought Arms was deserving of Spirits for whatever reason, otherwise they'd have joined earlier. Many said they seemed like base roster characters and if Sakurai felt the same he would've done so. It would've been more respectable for him to make a decision and stick with it.
If you're gunning for a Spirit, good for you, I'd have some picks for that timeline too, but this U-turn is just not a respectable move on anyone's part.

He is on record as saying that ARMS and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 were released too late for the base roster. That's it.

If that lessens him in your eyes then your welcome to your logic.

 

[Proceleon]

He is on record as saying that ARMS and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 were released too late for the base roster. That's it.

If that lessens him in your eyes then your welcome to your logic.

Would you have a source for that quote?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Would you have a source for that quote?

From PushDustIn as part of a Twitter Thread translating Sakurai's column

Xenoblade 2 and ARMs characters just had bad timing for the project plan. pic.twitter.com/PR4qS30leP

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) January 20, 2019

 

[PK-remling Fire]

What? No, he obviously only thought Arms was deserving of Spirits for whatever reason, otherwise they'd have joined earlier. Many said they seemed like base roster characters and if Sakurai felt the same he would've done so. It would've been more respectable for him to make a decision and stick with it.
If you're gunning for a Spirit, good for you, I'd have some picks for that timeline too, but this U-turn is just not a respectable move on anyone's part.

How is it disrespectful to anyone? You don't know how things were two years ago, a lot can happen in that time. The only people I can imagine being offended by this decision are people who are hopelessly clinging to fan-made "rules" and hate seeing self-imposed limitations lifted.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You built that Spirit for a reason, sir, and you'd do well to not repeat that mistake again.

What? No, he obviously only thought Arms was deserving of Spirits for whatever reason, otherwise they'd have joined earlier. Many said they seemed like base roster characters and if Sakurai felt the same he would've done so. It would've been more respectable for him to make a decision and stick with it.
If you're gunning for a Spirit, good for you, I'd have some picks for that timeline too, but this U-turn is just not a respectable move on anyone's part.

Honestly this just sounds like this.

 

[Proceleon]

From PushDustIn as part of a Twitter Thread translating Sakurai's column

Xenoblade 2 and ARMs characters just had bad timing for the project plan. pic.twitter.com/PR4qS30leP

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) January 20, 2019

Very good, very good.
Still think he should've sucked it up and taken the hit, but this is fair. I will lose respect for him if this just turns into the "Sakurai is a liar" Pass. Min Min makes one lie.

 

[amageish]

Very good, very good.
Still think he should've sucked it up and taken the hit, but this is fair. I will lose respect for him if this just turns into the "Sakurai is a liar" Pass. Min Min makes one lie.

This isn't lying? If your standard for lie is "Talking openly about how someone couldn't be in the game, then putting them in the game later when circumstances change," then Sakurai lies all the time, given statements like how Villager and Ridley didn't have moveset potential. I think he once mentioned how Rare characters would be hard to put in Smash during Melee's development, but circumstances changed over time and Banjo is in Ultimate. Things change. That isn't artistic oppression; that's just how things pragmatically work with a game of Smash's size and scope.

 

[Proceleon]

This isn't lying? If your standard for lie is "Talking openly about how someone couldn't be in the game, then putting them in the game later when circumstances change," then Sakurai lies all the time, given statements like how Villager and Ridley didn't have moveset potential. I think he once mentioned how Rare characters would be hard to put in Smash during Melee's development, but circumstances changed over time and Banjo is in Ultimate. Things change. That isn't artistic oppression; that's just how things pragmatically work with a game of Smash's size and scope.

As in the reveal trailer for Spirits saying characters "other than Fighters" would be Spirits and then making one a Fighter anyway. Lying.

 

[RouffWestie]

You built that Spirit for a reason, sir, and you'd do well to not repeat that mistake again.

YoU BuiLt ThaT sPiRIt foR a rEaSoN, siR

 

[PK-remling Fire]

As in the reveal trailer for Spirits saying characters "other than Fighters" would be Spirits and then making one a Fighter anyway. Lying.

That quote was made two years ago, before the second fighter's pass was even conceived. The Smash development team can do things now that they couldn't do back then due to time restrictions, and they shouldn't be restricted by a throwaway line made two years ago when determining their DLC today.

Plus Sakurai technically didn't say that spirits would never have the chance to ascend to playable status, that was simply fan assumption.

 

[fogbadge]

You say that like wanting to preserve a product's integrity is a bad thing. Sakurai should stay true to what he made and what he made was a Spirit.

no what sakurai made was a way to include more cameos than he could have done with trophies

 

[Proceleon]

That quote was made two years ago, before the second fighter's pass was even conceived. The Smash development team can do things now that they couldn't do back then due to time restrictions, and they shouldn't be restricted by a throwaway line made two years ago when determining their DLC today.

Plus Sakurai technically didn't say that spirits would never have the chance to ascend to playable status, that was simply fan assumption.

It's still been rendered a bare-faced lie now and that is disgusting.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

It's still been rendered a bare-faced lie now and that is disgusting.

You need to calm down.

 

[Perkilator]

My God, I wasn't expecting hate towards a character worse than Byleth, even if it's only a couple people on this site.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

It's still been rendered a bare-faced lie now and that is disgusting.

Where's the lie? Show me the quote where Sakurai says that once a character's png gets added to the game, their chances of becoming playable drop to 0% forevermore

 

[warpenguin55]

Satisfaction ratings: Go!

Min Min being the fighter is fine by me. I never cared about who the rep was, just that we got one.

Stage: It looks like it'll be fun to use, but I can't see it topping KoF Stadium.

Mii Costumes all look cool, probably gonna pick up the Vault boy one

Overall satisfaction rating: 6/10. Even though I wanted an ARMS rep, I was never going to be stupidly hyped for one. Min Min doesn't look like the kind of character I would want to play a ton of, but I'll still try her out.

EDIT: Noms: Alex Mason x5

It's still been rendered a bare-faced lie now and that is disgusting.

Except it's not a lie. Its a change of plans. Theres a difference.

 

[fogbadge]

It's still been rendered a bare-faced lie now and that is disgusting.

now im just spit balling here but could it be you just cant accept being wrong

 

[Troykv]

Min Min Satisfaction: 70%

A quite solid reveal, the trailer was awesome (I liked how it played with my emotions hahahaha), Min Min moveset it's quite something, it's weird, but I think I enjoy it; she can zone people, but isn't fast enough to be outright campy, so I think that is nice. Also CUTE GIRLS!

And of course, the death of the "Spirits deconfirm" myth it's awesome (I have some of my favorite characters as spirits)

BTW, more Nintendo Customes are cool :D (Rip Heihachi BTW, it seems the chosen one from Namco will be someone from Tales of, or perhaps...).

Who are nominating now?

 

[YoshiandToad]

ARMS Satisfaction: 90%
I'll be honest, I didn't have a horse in the ARMS race. I wanted to buy the game back in the day but it never dropped to a price I felt was reasonable for what is essentially Wii Boxing with more entertaining characters.

I felt pretty bad for Springman overall with everyone hating him for being 'boring' and in the trailer he even manages to triumphantly hold onto the invite for a good few seconds. Still, what I did like was his overt personality on display there...I'd actually love an ARMS anime watching this. Can't deny the trailer was one of the most entertaining to watch yet.

Min Min then? Well in hindsight I suppose she makes the most sense outside the aforementioned Springman. She's known to be able to use her feet too(which I'll be honest is what made me think it wouldn't be her) but the way her grabs into a kick work I can see that being satisfying to pull off.

Of all the DLC characters thus far, Min Min's the only one I'm 100% getting down the line and was completely sold on. She looks fun and the ARMS music is great. We're off to a great start for the FP2, and I already prefer it to FP1 with only the first character.

Naturally the cherry on the top of all of this is the well deserved death of the "Spirits Deconfirm" fanrule which has plagued this site for almost two years and has made speculation a real snooze fest as we talk about the same seven first parties over and over again. Screw that, let's put the first parties back on the table again and celebrate Nintendo too!

Not a full 100% because a.) I'm not invested in ARMS...yet and b.) Springman could have murdered the AT fanrule, allowing everyone to be freely discussed. As it stands the AT fanrule is one of the few still standing... and c.) I really did end up feeling bad for Springman...this is Chrom all over again. He'll get his chance...another day hopefully.