Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[TheHypnotoad]

Pit and Dark Pit are S tier. Comes out crazy fast and barely has any endlag. Super spammable.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Mega Man's DSmash should be in C or D tier IMO. Despite being one of the strongest DSmashes in the game, it is reaaaaly slow and you can't even use it to control the space around you. It's just an unpractical Kill Move. The only reason you would ever want to use this instead of an UTilt are to cover Rolls or punish a Shield Break without risking to miss the Z-Drop Combo. Even using it to punish Sex Kicks isn't simple.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How is Villager's Down Smash bad exactly?

The move doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me in the overall context of Villy's moveset. Its impact is limited to a zone that Villager already covers very effectively with dtilt, jab and nair OoS and the reward isn't that good to justify its use as a high-risk/high-reward option. I specifically added the term 'outclassed' because it's possible that some of these moves have overall solid stats and aren't bad per se. But some of them have extremely limited applications - Villager's dsmash is one of those, I'd say. All the top and high-level Villagers in the USA and Japan mostly ignore that move and it doesn't appear to have any sort of negative impact. Seems like the move is mostly superfluous for him.

 

[Routa]

But we still need to talk about it. Gunner's first hit can miss if she's too close, AND the second hit can miss if she connected the first from close range. Results vary depending on who she's fighting. Thin, human proportioned characters are the general culprits for the first issue while lightweight floaties cause the other issue. But on the other hand, the move has excellent range, good frame data and extremely good kill power. So I would pass on putting this in bottom tier. You get around the connection issues by using this move if they're far, and Dtilt if they're too close. Both are viable kill moves with the same startup. It's really comparable to Cloud's. More range and knockback to make up for more prevalent connection issues than his move has.

Gee man... Couldn't you wait for Mii... hehe...
This is Gunner's best Smash attack. Frame 9 smash that has a long range and good kill power due to throwing foes into the 2nd hit which brings foes closer to the blastzone. About the connecting issues. It is very character depend and it requires you to miss space it. If you land the first flame right on the opponent... well it should connect correctly. Other factor is also rage. Having a lot of rage can cause connecting issues. The Connecting issues aren't that bad tho. I rarely have connection issues myself. I would say it is best from the Miis. Gunner in general has most solid moveset from the Miis. Where would I rank it? Slightly above average. I would put it somewhere between B and C.

I will talk about Swordspider's and Brawler's Down-Smashes later.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok here is the preliminary list for Down-Smash:

Spoiler: Down-Smash

Discuss!

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Move Little Mac, Pit, and Dark Pit to S tier.

Also, Wario's might be bad, but it's not so much worse than any other to warrant its own tier.

 

[bc1910]

Move Little Mac, Pit, and Dark Pit to S tier.

Also, Wario's might be bad, but it's not so much worse than any other to warrant its own tier.

None of those are worthy of S-tier. They do not come anywhere near ZSS' or Mewtwo's in terms of overall utility.

The Pits' are less rewarding than both of the S-tier smashes. (ZSS' is a hit confirm for early kills and/or big damage). Mac's might kill earlier than Mewtwo's but I'm not sure.

If people are adamant, I could see Mac's as the worst S-tier Dsmash but no more. Ness' is probably better than the Pits'.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I don't see M2 as S.....idk if there really are any S tier worthy Dsmashes tbh, they can't even be that much better then ones in A.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'd move Little Mac's up to S, no others.

 

[Masonomace]

Down smash hits pretty hard needless to say, & the launch angle is good for the fact that it's a 33° angle. Not to make it sound greater, but Lucario at a neutral stock tie at 190% deals 23.8% which isn't the maximum 25.2% it can deal. And when you're at a 1-stock deficit, your Dsmash grows to be 25.2% when you reach 169% & beyond. However, even if you have your Dsmash this high in damage it won't be safe on block as it still is about –20 on shield advantage. Not that great overall. It can kill early, but then again so can any of Lucario's smash attacks given their slow startup & fairly long endlag.

The hitboxes on both sides having identical timing is neat, but then it's not in a way. Anyway, I'd actually rather rate Lucario's Dsmash a D-tier.
. . .
But that kill potential with high Aura makes me feel like it could stay in C. . . .S-tier kill power, C or B tier hitbox activity, but D-tier in terms of the frame data including startup, endlag, & shield advantage UNLESS you charge the move. Which then you make the shield advantage not as bad plus depending the character's ground friction relative to the shield knockback. But yeah I'm done with this move's discussion. D-tier

 

[Rizen]

I don't see why people think Mewtwo's Dsmash is so great. It's good and would be a great Fsmash but is lacking critical elements for a Dsmash. It only hits on one side, hits frames 21-22 (same as the 2nd hit of Link's Dsmash) and ends 44. The power and safety are nice but not nearly as good as say Ganon's Usmash. I can't think of a single time top Mewtwos like Abadango use it. The front only hit bubble isn't that impressive. IMO it's B-tier.

If you want crazy hitbubbles see ZSS' Dsmash.

On that note, ZSS' for S-tier. It comboes into ladders and finishing flip kick spikes. 's for S too.


's should be in A-tier. It is powerful, disjointed, the 2nd hit semi-spikes and hits frames 9-10 and 21-22, FAF 50 (6 frames longer than Mewtwo's). The 2nd hit is fairly safe. The reason people talk about it being laggy is first hit only.

 

[Nah]

The only 2 Dsmashes that strike me as S rank are ZSS's and Mac's.

I'm not sure what warrants Corrin's and Mega Man's being B tier, they don't seem quite as good as like plumber Dsmash or Cloud Dsmash

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

Honestly Wario deserves his own tier. Maybe Samus there too.

Dedede is at least C

IMO Bowser and Marcina should move down

 

[Litany]

: Ganondorf's D-smash is a powerful KO move that can be used to catch rolls. Kills at about 60% near the ledge if the second hit sweetspots; however, the sourspot kills much later (at about 80%), which makes the move unreliable as a killmove since you have to rely on the first hit sending them at the right speed and angle. It has a niche in his toolkit due to being a good option to catch rolls in from Flame Choke near the ledge, where it kills earlier than F-smash, but not taking into account Ganon's other tools it's only average. Probably B-tier.

 

[Galaxeon]

Diddy's seems a bit better than C, but I don't main him.

Megaman's and Corrin's feel a bit high as well.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mewtwo's down smash is absolutely not S tier. It may look like Zero Suit Samus', but it damn sure isn't as good.

Down smash hits pretty hard needless to say, & the launch angle is good for the fact that it's a 33° angle. Not to make it sound greater, but Lucario at a neutral stock tie at 190% deals 23.8% which isn't the maximum 25.2% it can deal. And when you're at a 1-stock deficit, your Dsmash grows to be 25.2% when you reach 169% & beyond. However, even if you have your Dsmash this high in damage it won't be safe on block as it still is about –20 on shield advantage. Not that great overall. It can kill early, but then again so can any of Lucario's smash attacks given their slow startup & fairly long endlag.

The hitboxes on both sides having identical timing is neat, but then it's not in a way. Anyway, I'd actually rather rate Lucario's Dsmash a D-tier.
. . .
But that kill potential with high Aura makes me feel like it could stay in C. . . .S-tier kill power, C or B tier hitbox activity, but D-tier in terms of the frame data including startup, endlag, & shield advantage UNLESS you charge the move. Which then you make the shield advantage not as bad plus depending the character's ground friction relative to the shield knockback. But yeah I'm done with this move's discussion. D-tier

I think C is a fine place for it. It really isn't slow enough to make up for just how disgustingly strong it can get. I've had this move this move kill at 65% from midscreen at High Aura. It's especially deadly at the ledge, too. If Lucario guesses your getup with a sufficient amount of Aura, your stock vanishes.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Mewtwo isn't S. Once again one smash attack is being elevated absurdly high for being safe on shield. There's no protection from attack during the 20 frames of startup. Nor anything stopping them from getting out of range from such a short range attack. S tier needs ZSS, and Mac. Mac combines great frame data, range, super armor, reasonable kill potential, and hitting 2 frame ledge snaps. Pit is fine at A. Being marginally better than Mac in terms of frame data is notable, but that's the only advantage against him. Furthermore the first hit is low range and has low to nonviable kill potential even with the close sweetspot. The second hit is much better, but assuming you sweetspot it, it still lags behind his Fsmash when that move is correctly DId by the victim.

Corrin should move down to D while Mii Brawler should be C for not being garbage. I don't think I've ever witnessed a sincere Corrin Dsmash. Brawler's is considerably better in startup and endlag. It's one of his very very few kill moves with the foot hitbox behind him killing about 15% earlier, allowing for pre-100% stocks. Corrin is similar, with about the same kill power in front as Brawler in front, and even earlier kills than him with a tipper. But it's a tipper. I find Brawler's to be a straight upgrade from the frame data and more consistent kills %s. Though I could see them both being C if F tier ends up being thrown out and D is the new bottom.

I really think Olimar should be an A for reasons previously stated. It's seriously good at what it does. And Villager into B since I think any move that allows for an infinite deserves recognition. Mega Man's is functionally the same as Palutenas with even more endlag and no windbox. They both deserve D. Peach and Metaknight I'm thinking C. Good startup for sure, but the kill potential and damage aren't there. Peach's has less range than even her standing grab and plenty endlag to boot, so she fits in with D as well. And I think Lucas and Marcina are D tier. As for F tier, I don't really know who deserves it. If it were just one guy, Wario would be my pick. But there's already plenty badness in D that the tier isn't necessary. As mentioned previously, Brawler doesn't belong there, and I would move Dedede out, it's frame data is great among his moveset and the kill potential excels among equally slow startup D smashes. And the sourspot is rare to land extremely close to his body.

Mewtwo's down smash is absolutely not S tier. It may look like Zero Suit Samus', but it damn sure isn't as good.

I think C is a fine place for it. It really isn't slow enough to make up for just how disgustingly strong it can get. I've had this move this move kill at 65% from midscreen at High Aura. It's especially deadly at the ledge, too. If Lucario guesses your getup with a sufficient amount of Aura, your stock vanishes.

If Lucario uses a smash attack with a sufficient amount of aura, his stock vanishes. In a 2 stock meta, he cannot afford to die first, hence why all of his smashes don't see frivolous use. With Bair he can fish for kills without fear of a punish, with occasional Force palm command grab once they're conditioned to shield every time Lucario hops in the air facing away.

 

[Masonomace]

I think C is a fine place for it. It really isn't slow enough to make up for just how disgustingly strong it can get. I've had this move this move kill at 65% from midscreen at High Aura. It's especially deadly at the ledge, too. If Lucario guesses your getup with a sufficient amount of Aura, your stock vanishes.

I mean, I feel you n all. I know where you're coming from & can support it with the gfycat clip I have below that I've performed personally. The move isn't that slow in the trade-off of power vs speed, but you need a very high amount of Aura to make this move keep up with his other smash attacks & yet the move still gets outclassed. Like if I guess that they do said ledge-option, I'll just pivot Fsmash to catch it so that they die at least 15% earlier. Fsmash can kill a heavy before they even reach 55% near mid-stage whereas the only things Dsmash can do better on are the fact that the angle is lower, the startup is 3 frames faster, & it hits simultaneously on two sides instead of one. However, those better traits don't compete with Lucario's other options that are better suited to use in the end. Usmash out of a Aura Sphere ledge-setup invalidates several ledge options while Fsmash has slightly more hitbox duration on top of stronger damage & more range thus leads to being actually super-safe on block with high Aura. Dsmash fails to be completely safe on block even at a –2 stock deficit & said X% behind to max out Dsmash's damage cap at around ~25.2% unless you can space this move's range to hit from a farther reach to the point you may actually whiff if over-spaced.

Overall I feel that anything Lucario does with Anubis-levels of Aura makes his move-set look S-tier including Dsmash, like this clip. But I still have to go with a D-tier rating because anything not Anubis-level or high-Aura amounts makes Dsmash even worse in the competition of this Dsmash tier list.

https://gfycat.com/RecentUntimelyGorilla​

TL;DR Lucario's Dsmash is mostly outclassed in performance by his other smash attacks to the point that the move will definitely not be used as much for any kind of reads in place of Fsmash or Usmash barring a few advantages to utilize for moments. More endlag than Fsmash if you count hitbox duration for the entire move(s). Least-rewarding out of his smashes.

Also forgot to mention that Dsmash from behind has more horizontal hitbox range than the attack in front of Lucario & that Dsmash scales the worst out of his smash attacks. Neat.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'm feeling that zard's is fine where it is, it doesn't have a sourspot, excellent range and startup which can catch ending lag and it's one of the only one of zard's moves that sends opponents at a downward horizontal angle on a standing opponent.

The big issue is endlag, the endlag is long enough that even if you won't eat a smash attack you WILL be eating a craptop of tilts, special moves and grabs, and since zard is combo food and a downgrab is the most common way to start a combo string one shielded or whiffed downsmash at the wrong time and zard gets comboed.

I will admit though it's excellent for chase and rushdown punishing and for countering recovery moves due to it's speed and range. Due to there being no sourspot zard doesn't have to worry about an opponent's positioning when using the move, all he has to worry about is if they are in range and if the opponent is shielding or dodging. It's great for catching landing opponents. It does ok KB on shield but an opponent especially if their dash is good can simply close the gap and punish.

Wish we could get some frame data though....

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Who needs frame data when you have a hitbox this ****ing massive

You can net stocks as low as 30 with it by catching 2frames. Rosalina for instance should never be making it back to the stage unless she has her jump and that's pretty easy to burn with flamethrower

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The hitbox went by so quickly I couldn't see it. Is it possible to freeze-frame it right when the hitboxes show up? This also brings another question up, should hitbox size/range also count into how a move is graded? If so certain smashes could get a rank up due to sheer size.

 

[Rizen]

The hitbox went by so quickly I couldn't see it. Is it possible to freeze-frame it right when the hitboxes show up? This also brings another question up, should hitbox size/range also count into how a move is graded? If so certain smashes could get a rank up due to sheer size.

Bigger hitboxes are a good thing but not the only factor. How good a move is overall can be thought of as 'how good is the risk/reward ratio for that type of move in competitive games'. Another way to look at it is 'how good is this move at outplaying the opponent'. Take Diddy's Dtilt, not a super big hitbox but it's fast to start at frame 4, ends 19 and combos into kill moves; very safe, will beat most ground options and has high reward: S-tier. On the flipside, Ganon's Utilt is HUGE but has no armor and hits frame 81-84; possibly the worst move in the game; despite huge reward it's completely impractical. Their are some jabs that can be DIed out of despite being fast and then punished hard as examples of high risk for very low reward. Most moves fall somewhere in between.

 

[Vyrnx]

Dedede's is pretty fast and powerful. It's sort of known for being one of those moves to watch out for against Dedede. I would at least move it to C.

Mac's is very easily S tier. Super armor, powerful, low end lag. And S tier really should just be ZSS and Mac, they're definitely better than the rest.

I would move down Rob's, Peach's, Bayo's, Corrin's, and Mega Man's for sure. I would also just move Wario up to D. Yoshi's is super fast and pretty good, probably C tier.

A tier in general has many that aren't nearly as good as Mewtwo's, the Pits', or Ness'.

 

[Nemesis561]

While Wario's D-smash is trash, it probably doesnt belong in its own tier

 

[ReRaze]

Surprised Pit's Usmash is only C tier. It actually isn't that weak, it scales really well with rage. With a bit of rage it kills easily at around 80% on lightweights and 100% on Heavies.This coming from a Frame 6 disjointed, multihit move. The peak hitbox actually reaches about twice his own height due to him jumping during the move (his hurtbox is altered in such a way that he can straight up avoid certain moves like Greninja's Fsmash during the Usmash). Its a very powerful reactionary move due to the speed and range. imho It should be B at least although I honestly think it's A.

But that's over now so I'll go over Pit's Down Smash.

The front hit is his fastest ground move at frame 5. The back hit is cool though, to put it into perspective its faster than Metaknights Fsmash or Mewtwos Dsmash at frame 18 whilst also also having less cooldown than either of them. It's safe on block. Its alot weaker in terms of numbers but that's sorta remedied by the 30 degree launch angle~ imho keep it at A.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Bigger hitboxes are a good thing but not the only factor. How good a move is overall can be thought of as 'how good is the risk/reward ratio for that type of move in competitive games'. Another way to look at it is 'how good is this move at outplaying the opponent'. Take Diddy's Dtilt, not a super big hitbox but it's fast to start at frame 4, ends 19 and combos into kill moves; very safe, will beat most ground options and has high reward: S-tier. On the flipside, Ganon's Utilt is HUGE but has no armor and hits frame 81-84; possibly the worst move in the game; despite huge reward it's completely impractical. Their are some jabs that can be DIed out of despite being fast and then punished hard as examples of high risk for very low reward. Most moves fall somewhere in between.

Hrmm, some of the hitboxes weren't big, or were angled more where zard was facing. Look at down aerial, I'm pretty sure the hitbox was more to the right than left because the size of the hitboxes look right but their positions don't but then again that might be just me, this is a very useful video.

 

[JayZee1700]

's D-Smash might be suited better as worst B-Tier:

Sure, 's D-Smash is relatively slow, the hitbox starting at frame 10. What makes up for it is 10 frames of leg intangibility (Frames 5-14).

The hitbox also lingers for 8 frames, which has the same 25 BKB and 108 KBG compared to the first 4 frames having 110 KBG.

It's a reliable kill move at ~110% (on average against the cast), which also is a good KO option after a D-air at higher percents.

is definitely not higher B-Tier, but certainly not C-Tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pit dsmash does not deserve to be S-Tier. It's not on the same level as ZSS' or Mac's dsmash - it just doesn't have the reward for it. Though I agree that S-Tier is too high for Mewtwo's dsmash as well. ZSS and Mac are probably the only characters who have that good a dsmash.

Ok here is the preliminary list for Down-Smash:

Spoiler: Down-Smash

Discuss!

Sheik is waaaaaaaay too low. Her dsmash is pretty solid, it's just a bit outclassed among all her high-tier moves. It's better than nearly all of the C-Tier dsmashes and barely worse than Corrin's.

D, C and B-Tier look inconsistent and should be rearranged. There is no way in hell that Lucina's super underwhelming dsmash is on the same level as Lucas' very solid one. DDD also has a MUCH more practical dsmash than Lucario whose dsmash is fairly worthless.

Move Little Mac, Pit, and Dark Pit to S tier.

Also, Wario's might be bad, but it's not so much worse than any other to warrant its own tier.

While Wario's D-smash is trash, it probably doesnt belong in its own tier

Wario's dsmash is an abomination and clearly the worst in the game. It may not deserve a whole tier for itself but there aren't a lot of dsmashes in the game that qualify to be ranked alongside it.

 

[Dig Dug]

I'll stand by what I said about Olimar's dsmash. A tier, or top of B tier at the very least. It's got a lot of utility, low cooldown, good at edgeguarding most recoveries save for ones that easily hit past the ledge, and some jank working in its favor like connecting with both hits or desynch shenanigans. It's positives far outweigh the negatives.

I second that Mega Man's, Corrin's, and Peach's should move down. The Pits should stay in A tier. If they had just a little more killpower, then I'd agree with them being S. Right now, ZSS and Little Mac are the only ones that belong there, imo.

Pikachu's could stand to move down. Unlike his Usmash (which ended up way too low), Dsmash just isn't worth it in terms of risk/reward. Even in the situations where Dsmash could be an option, he typically has a much better one.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

S-Tier:
A-Tier:
B-Tier:
C-Tier:
D-Tier:
sub-D:

Not ordered within tiers and doesn't include all dsmashes, just the ones I feel reasonably confident in ranking. Most of them are floating between average/mediocre and completely useless because that's what most dsmashes are.

 

[Galaxeon]

Greninja's isn't in the bottom of the game, it's actually pretty average, and has some nice uses. Definetly not worse than Lucas', Corrin's Mega Man's and more.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

S-Tier:
A-Tier:
B-Tier:
C-Tier:
D-Tier:
sub-D:

Not ordered within tiers and doesn't include all dsmashes, just the ones I feel reasonably confident in ranking. Most of them are floating between average/mediocre and completely useless because that's what most dsmashes are.

Not going to argue with you on most of this but zard's isn't C, it's excellent for edgeguarding, has no sourspots and due to it's sheer size it can be used for platform camping. It being unsafe on whiff or shield does not drop it all the way down to C because it has a LOT more utility than that. I do agree on most of your other placements though.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's isn't in the bottom of the game, it's actually pretty average, and has some nice uses. Definetly not worse than Lucas', Corrin's Mega Man's and more.

There might be some argument for it to be bumped up to C-tier but whether it's C or D doesn't matter. It's not a good move.

Shave 10 frames off the endlag and we'd be talking.

 

[Routa]

Gheb's list of Down-Smashes looks very close to the one I had in mind. Anyways now to fill the empty spots.

I would put both Gunner's and Swordspider's down smashes to B tier if we use Gheb's list as a base.
I have already tried to explain why I think Gunner's d-smash deserves his spot in B tier, but I have yet to talk about Swordspiders.

Now why I think Swordspider's D-Smash deserves its spot in B tier? Well let's look at its data shall we?

It is decently fast (coming out on frame 7) and deals good chunk of damage and has decent kill power. It is possible to get the both hits of the down smash for massive damage. Now the fancy thing about it is that it deals huge amount of shield damage if you land the both hits which is possible. PP D-Smash can break almost full HP shield.

As for Brawler's... It is ok. I'm not sure what to say about this move. It is Brawler's only good smash attack. It is his best kill move outside the sourspot Dair in 1111 form. And even in XXXX form the move is used when nothing els seems to land due to its high speed for a kill move and how relatively easy it is to land. C tier perhaps?

 

[TriTails]

I don't see how 's D-smash even belongs to A tier at all. I don't even think it even deserves B. Almost the entire B tier has better D-smashes than his.

Frame 15 is already not very good, but its FAF, which sits at 64, is the primary reason why I don't think this move isn't good at all. It has incredible KO power, I give it that. But it's very risky to pull out. Even when you are behind him, you have 34 frames worth of startup to get the hell outta there. If you are aiming to hit with the front hit, it's even more unsafe on shield or whiff.

Catching rolls is its niche, because on how absurdly strong it is (And if you read them correctly, 15 frames of startup doesn't matter much). But what if you read them wrong? Keep in mind Ganon has one of the worst disadvantage state in the game. The moment you are sent offstage, the very moment you know you've ****ed up (Like... run to his Up-B, tech, and F-air him. I do this all the time with Luigi). Flame Choke tech chase is one thing, but for roll ins, can't you just use F-smash? You can even charge it a little and it will still come out just at about the same frame as D-smash back hit, and if you miss, the punish you'll take should just be about the same as if you had used D-smash. Outside of that, this move is no good.

Of course I'd love to be proven wrong. But everytime I play Ganon, his D-smash strikes me as one of his worst moves. In a game where safety and neutral are king, this move doesn't shine very well IMO.

NOW. If we are gonna talk about how absurd Falcon's D-smash is...
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Also, I'd like to join in ''s D-smash is S-tier' bandwagon please. The super armor starts from frame 7, with the first hitbox coming out at frame 10. That's already pretty decent for its range. It also deals 13% and sends people at dangerous angle, with pretty good KO power to boot too. Overall this is what you'd want from a D-smash. A solid GTFO me move with great range and nice power bonus. It's not unpunishable, but it's kinda hard to do so.
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Felt a little skeptical about this, but I think 's D-smash deserves higher. It's a solid followup out of jab (In which you can deal 19% per pop outta a frame 2 move) with good kill power in its safe back hit (Stronger than sweetspot U-smash IIRC), and surprisingly shorter FAF than Mario's (Which is notably weaker in every aspect except maybe angle) at 38. That's hella fast (About as fast as MK's, to compare). Walk D-smash is also a good option because of Luigi's traction as it improves D-smash's range.

It kinda fails at catching people on the ledge though (Depends on how exposed the character's hurtbox is), but I think this is overall a very good move to have. I think it can compete with the ones in A tier and at worst, I think it's the best B.

 

[adom4]

I don't see how 's D-smash even belongs to A tier at all. I don't even think it even deserves B. Almost the entire B tier has better D-smashes than his.

Frame 15 is already not very good, but its FAF, which sits at 64, is the primary reason why I don't think this move isn't good at all. It has incredible KO power, I give it that. But it's very risky to pull out. Even when you are behind him, you have 34 frames worth of startup to get the hell outta there. If you are aiming to hit with the front hit, it's even more unsafe on shield or whiff.

Catching rolls is its niche, because on how absurdly strong it is (And if you read them correctly, 15 frames of startup doesn't matter much). But what if you read them wrong? Keep in mind Ganon has one of the worst disadvantage state in the game. The moment you are sent offstage, the very moment you know you've ****ed up (Like... run to his Up-B, tech, and F-air him. I do this all the time with Luigi). Flame Choke tech chase is one thing, but for roll ins, can't you just use F-smash? You can even charge it a little and it will still come out just at about the same frame as D-smash back hit, and if you miss, the punish you'll take should just be about the same as if you had used D-smash. Outside of that, this move is no good.

Of course I'd love to be proven wrong. But everytime I play Ganon, his D-smash strikes me as one of his worst moves. In a game where safety and neutral are king, this move doesn't shine very well IMO.

NOW. If we are gonna talk about how absurd Falcon's D-smash is...
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Also, I'd like to join in ''s D-smash is S-tier' bandwagon please. The super armor starts from frame 7, with the first hitbox coming out at frame 10. That's already pretty decent for its range. It also deals 13% and sends people at dangerous angle, with pretty good KO power to boot too. Overall this is what you'd want from a D-smash. A solid GTFO me move with great range and nice power bonus. It's not unpunishable, but it's kinda hard to do so.
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Felt a little skeptical about this, but I think 's D-smash deserves higher. It's a solid followup out of jab (In which you can deal 19% per pop outta a frame 2 move) with good kill power in its safe back hit (Stronger than sweetspot U-smash IIRC), and surprisingly shorter FAF than Mario's (Which is notably weaker in every aspect except maybe angle) at 38. That's hella fast (About as fast as MK's, to compare). Walk D-smash is also a good option because of Luigi's traction as it improves D-smash's range.

It kinda fails at catching people on the ledge though (Depends on how exposed the character's hurtbox is), but I think this is overall a very good move to have. I think it can compete with the ones in A tier and at worst, I think it's the best B.

i do think A tier is a bit too high but i can see it in B tier.
It's an excellent move to use out of flame choke since it can catch most tech rolls behind with turnaround D-smash unlike F-smash which is a lot stricter.
But the biggest thing about it is its usage from aerial flame choke, by buffering D-smash it can catch a LOT of options out of it depending on the characters.
Just for example, here are the charatcers that get hit out of D-smash if they roll away after air choke:
some of these characters can be hit by D-smash even if they do a regular getup or delay their getup.

And some characters can be hit by D-smash oos if they use a getup attack: (without luma)

Plus the range on it is pretty absurd, it's good for catching hitbox extensions.
It's still his worst smash attack but i think it's a solid fit for B tier.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

Funbot28 I'm compiling these to make a moves tier list. I noticed a couple problems in the OP:

• The link/image for up-special doesn't work
• The list for forward throw isn't the actual list, it's the same as forward tilt

 

[ARGHETH]

...what do you mean by a moves tier list?

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

I'm giving characters points for each move here and adding them up. If a character is in the worst tier, they get 0 points, second worst tier gets 1 point, etc.

Probably not the best way but I'm interested to see the results.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm shocked we're still on Dsmash.

can at least warrant a B or C-tier I feel, because the move simply hits super hard & is a solid killing Dsmash if not one of the most dangerous Dsmashes on-hit. High kb overall, good damage, can punish more than several options out of Disadvantage, you can't undermind this move to say the least. . There's that awkward point in the move where they get launched in front of Ganon & not behind like he wants, but that doesn't happen often enough for it to be a huge deal from keeping the rankings down to C-tier. At very worst, it can be seen as C-tier on-block, but the majority of Dsmashes ranked high can be seen as C-tier or lower on-block so.