Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[HoSmash4]

Gheb

Would you agree that their kill confirm property comes from their setup? Although of course you would put fox upsmash over sonics because it can confirm but only a tier upgrade.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mario, Doc, and Luigi all go straight to S tier for reasons that don't need explaining.

Mewtwo's is a solid A tier up smash. I'd say the only thing that keeps this out of S is the tiny initial hitbox, but other than that its decently fast, incredibly strong, and lingers for quite a bit.

Roy's up smash does everything you'd expect an up smash to do, and it can be comboed into from sourspot up air. B tier, but only because there are better up smashes.

Jigglypuff's up smash is absolute garbage and is one of the worst moves in the game, don't ever use this move, F tier.

Rosalina's up smash is her best kill move without Luma, and absolutely devastating with Luma. The range, the power, the speed, the range, it's all so good. A tier.

Cloud's is C tier at best, it's not strong enough for how slow it is and it's not fast enough for how weak it is. That said, though, there are worse ones out there.

 

[MarshieMan]

has a very solid U-smash. Relatively low kill power, but comes out incredibly fast, covers a large area making it a good anti-air. Most importantly, diddy has the best set-ups for Usmash in the game. Dtilt, nair, and banana all true combo into Usmash. Dtilt and banana are both very safe as well.

A tier if we're considering set-ups, B if we arent.

 

[Kofu]

I'm probably of the unpopular opinion that Mario's, Luigi's and Doc's USmashes might be A tier rather than S. They've got good startup (especially if you reverse it so your back faces the opponent), relatively low recovery, and good range for the characters' sizes. However, the damage and power are both lacking, and you can honestly survive a lot of attempted USmash kills by just opting to not land next to the characters. Personally I feel like Mario's USmash just synergizes well with his kit and mobility. I could see them in S but don't think they quite fit.

Most of the other good USmashes have been mentioned, but I'd like to throw in another mention of Game & Watch's. It's the third slowest USmash in the game after Lucas's and Ike's, but it manages to be a fantastic move anyway. It hits on Frame 24 but grants him invincibility over most of his body (just failing to cover a few of his limbs) starting on frame 4. That protection continues when you hold the charge, too. This makes it a great anti-air and can even stuff some grounded moves, too. It does 16% and usually kills around 100%. Oh, and have I mentioned the move's 14-frame cooldown? It's safe on shield and can be used to start combos at low percents. Its only weakness, aside from startup, is its terrible range.

 

[JayE]

has a very solid U-smash. Relatively low kill power, but comes out incredibly fast, covers a large area making it a good anti-air. Most importantly, diddy has the best set-ups for Usmash in the game. Dtilt, nair, and banana all true combo into Usmash. Dtilt and banana are both very safe as well.

A tier if we're considering set-ups, B if we arent.

I've heard d tilt to up smash isn't a true combo, at least not all the time. I've seen Larry airdodge it, but it may leave you in a bad position. I might be wrong

 

[MarioMeteor]

However, the damage and power are both lacking,

Not true at all. Dr. Mario's up smash can KO you at relatively early if you're closer to the ledge because of the horizontal angle, and 14% is not bad for a smash attack, especially one as fast as the Bros. up smash.

and you can honestly survive a lot of attempted USmash kills by just opting to not land next to the characters.

You could say that about every up smash in the game.

 

[MarshieMan]

I've heard d tilt to up smash isn't a true combo, at least not all the time. I've seen Larry airdodge it, but it may leave you in a bad position. I might be wrong

It is definitely true for a cerain percent range. After that it basically becomes a 50/50, but at that point you might as well Dtilt > Bair which is also gauranteed.
Di can affect its range a bit as well.

Also people may pop out of it because the multihits

 

[Masonomace]

Not like this changes anything, but kill power is something we definitely already have. Even off a ledge getup for proof:
https://giant.gfycat.com/DirectWarlikeAfricanmolesnake.webm
For those who're too lazy to click the link:
-
EDIT: Also yeah Zapp Branniglenn Shulk's Usmash in design is not that amazing with its flaws you & @←/feel. mentioned. Although, to remedy those flaws, just Usmash with more rage to apply more kb hitstun on the fastfallers like & at mid to higher percents instead of low percent low rage. And for the "falling out" issue, I'd just focus on using the front or the hitbox above Shulk Usmash instead of the hitbox region behind Shulk as that's less range. Heck, even the knockup ground-target hitbox behind Shulk is less range than the one in front of him, so that adds onto the fact that the hitbox behind is less effective. I'll probably just claim that I feel Shulk Usmash is B-tier level for its strengths it has despite the flaws & drawbacks to the move.

 

[Rizen]

's Usmash for S tier. Kofu covered it. The invincibility from frame 4 allows it to act sort of like a counter unless the move hits low and it's practically nonpunishable on shield.

I second 's being really good, S tier. Huge range in front of and above her, head intangible frames 7-16, hits 8-16, and Luma makes it even better. That's faster and has more active frames than 's btw and it ends only 8 frames later.

's for S too.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

It exists

There are few reasons to ever really use it honestly. It has a wide arching hitbox above Ness so it can catch certain ledge options and people trying to SHAD behind you but the considerable end lag and knock back so if you ever land a hit with it you can't follow up with anything. You can combo off a falling up air with it but unless the opponent is out of Ness' up tilt range then you never really should bother. The attack also is terrible for killing, even hitting with the strongest part of the move does nothing at really high percentages.

What I will say it's a good OoS option, the attack starts on frame 6 it's his fastest option if the opponent is in front of you as it won't start arching till frame 11. Though often your better off just shield grabbing opponents who are in front of your shield

It's either C or D

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Just a few impressions:

Amazing:

Very good:

Good with some limitations:

Situationally useful:


DK, Duck Hunt, Jigglypuff and Ness have usmashes that seem fairly useless for the most part. Bayonetta, Bowser Jr, Corrin, DDD, Olimar, Pac-Man, Wario and Zelda's usmash are pretty limited. They're useful only in a few specific situations. Falcon, Cloud, Ike, Lucas and Robin have usmashes that aren't seen a lot because they are for the most part outclassed by different options. They're not terrible or useless, there just isn't much of a reason to use them.

Gheb

Would you agree that their kill confirm property comes from their setup?

Not exclusively, and that's where I feel that things get mucky. Lucario being able to confirm into Usmash from Neutral B is not just the result of Neutral B's "magnet" effect. In that specific case it's also because the hitbox of his usmash hits behind him with no sourspot present to mess things up. He wouldn't be able to do that with, say, Fox' usmash. In that case he'd hit the opponent with the sourspot which doesn't kill at any point that you'd consider threatening.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin Usmash would be a lot more useful if it either had a faster startup than 12 frames, or if all of the hitbox at the startup was a strong hitbox. Seeing people just float off to the side when Usmash hits off the side, when Marth's and Lucina's drag them in for the strong hit in the center, should be criminal.

 

[kendikong]

Nominating Zard's USmash for A.

Fast, strong, large disjointed hitboxes. Beats Cloud's Dair. At least on par or better than Link's USmash.

 

[TDK]

Honorable mention to Lucas for having the strongest knockback of any attack?

 

[MarshieMan]

Honorable mention to Lucas for having the strongest knockback of any attack?

It doesnt quite have the strongest of any attack, but it does have the most of every Usmash (except maybe max aura lucario?). However it has fairly limited uses. C or B tier

 

[ARGHETH]

...is there some special property of charged Usmash or something? Because Ganondorf's does 21/24% and around the same knockback.

Also, LM's does 21% and Bowser's sweetspotted Usmash does 20%.

 

[TDK]

...is there some special property of charged Usmash or something? Because Ganondorf's does 21/24 damage and around the same knockback.

Huh. The tips in the game say it's "The strongest out of any attack", so I went with that.

 

[Goombo]

Honorable mention to Lucas for having the strongest knockback of any attack?

Bowser, Wii Fit Trainer, Ganondorf, Buster Shulk and max aura Lucario all have stronger Upsmashes.

 

[ARGHETH]

Bowser, Wii Fit Trainer, Ganondorf, Buster Shulk and max aura Lucario all have stronger Upsmashes.

WFT's sweetspotted Usmash does 18%, Lucas's does 19%.
Also, Buster Shulk's does less knockback because of the knockback decrease. Smash Shulk comes close, though.

Huh. The tips in the game say it's "The strongest out of any attack", so I went with that.

Yeah, the tip's wrong. Ganondorf alone has stronger knockback on Usmash, Fsmash, and Warlock Punch.

 

[Goombo]

WFT's sweetspotted Usmash does 18%, Lucas's does 19%.
Also, Buster Shulk's does less knockback because of the knockback decrease. Smash Shulk comes close, though.

He was clearly talking about knockback and that's what I was referring to.

Also, discussing damage in a strongest moves discussion sems pretty pointless to me since those moves mainly are used to kill.

 

[Flamegeyser]

S candidates: Mario, Rosa, Diddy (maybe) Fox, G&W

 

[ARGHETH]

He was clearly talking about knockback and that's what I was referring to.

Also, discussing damage in a strongest moves discussion sems pretty pointless to me since those moves mainly are used to kill.

Lucas's has more KB at lower percents, while WFT's has more at higher percents. They converge at around 80, where they'll start to kill. I think I accidentally put the attacker and victim at 0% in the knockback calculator the first time around...
Buster Shulk does less knockback, while Smash Shulk does less knockback but kills earlier because of the angle

 

[MarshieMan]

i dont quite think Diddy is S tier material, but i definitely see him as a solid A tier.

 

[GS3K]

's usmash is probably around the C range, maybe lower. It works like Samus's but has an easier time connecting due to gunner being shorter. Its main drawback is that the opponent can fall out of it

 

[BSP]

Is this considering safety at all? If so, Rosa's Usmash loses a few points because it's extremely bad on block. Same thing with Fox. This is a bit relevant when we've got things like plumber/doctor Usmashes in the mix.

Pac-Man's Usmash has range/disjointedness and that's it. It has a tiny scooping hitbox in front of him and near nonexistent horizontal range otherwise, with enough lag to be hard punished (thanks patches!). The only thing its got going for it is somewhat ridiculous disjoint, able to beat Cloud's Dair clean if you time it correctly. Easy C tier.

 

[MarshieMan]

Is this considering safety at all? If so, Rosa's Usmash loses a few points because it's extremely bad on block. Same thing with Fox. This is a bit relevant when we've got things like plumber/doctor Usmashes in the mix.

Yes it is being considered, but Rosa and Fox have much better confirms into Usmash, as well as simply having more knockback on them. Also Mario's Usmash is not safe on shield, but a lot of characters may lack the OoS options to punish it hard.

 

[Arrei]

Should's Usmash should be considered C or D, considering the kind of competition it has? It feels pretty middle-of-the-road to me. As was said, it's not good... but it's not exactly bad either as far as smashes go? It's slow and has that one sourspot at the very end. It's similar to Dedede's, which I'd say is D-D-D, and of course languishing down in F is Puff's, but this one does its job as an anti-air decently well on account of its terrifying reach and the fact that Ike crouches down to lower his hurtbox while executing it, unlike Dedede's which has him remain a massive penguin-sized hurtbox. At lower percent I've also had pretty good results using it to catch airdodges after popping an opponent into the air with something like Utilt, since Ike's aerials are to be feared in that position and landing it allows Ike to pursue his opponent further.

 

[Luco]

Ness' Usmash has weird utility as technically Ness' fastest OoS option. I'd rarely pick it over Nair but it's a thing.

Lucas' Usmash on the other hand actually sees more use because it's an option out of the footstool lock. Ideally you'd prefer double Uair or Dsmash but there was this one time...

Spoiler: tfw missed the tech

At the end of the day though they're both unremarkable Usmashes.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Yes it is being considered, but Rosa and Fox have much better confirms into Usmash, as well as simply having more knockback on them. Also Mario's Usmash is not safe on shield, but a lot of characters may lack the OoS options to punish it hard.

Although Mario's usmash technically isn't safe on shield, the shield pushback it does means that there are very few characters who can actually punish it.

 

[MarshieMan]

Although Mario's usmash technically isn't safe on shield, the shield pushback it does means that there are very few characters who can actually punish it.

a lot of characters may lack the OoS options to punish it hard.

Diddy, Megaman, Link, TL, Rob, Samus, ZSS, Lucas.. those are the few i can think of who have good enough OoS options to punish it. Some of those i only mentioned because of their extended grab range, the others i mentioned because they can item throw OoS.

Edit: Megaman and mewtwo could probably footstool OoS for a hard punish. Maybe others too.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Using a knockback calculator for this one. I need a way to level the playing field for moves that have sweetspots only hitting targets higher than ground level like Sheik, WFT, Ganon, and Marth. All Usmashes can optimally hit airborne opponents, but not all optimally hit grounded opponents.This list is % damage that upward (Y) KB reaches 188.0 against Mario in training mode FD, rounded up to next whole number of damage. These are not precise kill %s but mathematical Knockback comparisons. 188.0 is approximately how much distance it takes for Mario to hit the ceiling from FD. Choosing a smaller KB number would favor moves with high base knockback, while choosing a larger KB number would favor moves with better scaling. But it's not an absolutely fair comparison regardless because some multihit smashes take the victim upward (closer to the blastzone) by design. So they hit the knockback threshold later than a single hit smash would. Diddy is the most prominent example, as his move would have killed Mario at about 135 with no DI, instead of 152 like this comparison suggests.

Really it's the best I could do, so I'll make it up to multihit smashes by not humiliating them with DI tests.

Spoiler: Usmash knockback comparison

(max aura/150% of aura/100% of aura/50% of aura/ no aura) 45/60/83/115/159
(Deep Breathing tipper/non) 81/96
(sweet/sour) 81/91
(smash) 82
(tipper/non) 84/99
(tipper/non) 86/117
87
(15% sweet/17% tipper/12% sour) 89/96/131
(early/late) 89/104
(purple/red/blue/yellow/white) 90/105/115/115/144
(closest to furthest) 90/95/100/106
93
97
97
(no art) 99
100
(early sweet/sour/late sweet/late sour) 101/118/122/144
(speed) 103
104
104
104
(tipper) 104
104
(tipper/non) 104/109
(tipper/non) 104/122
(shield) 105
105 (tipper)
(early/late) 108/135
(14%early/11% late) 108/162
108-133
109
110
111
(both/Luma/Rosa) 111/123/132
(levin/levin sourspot) 112/173
(sweet/sour) 112/132
114
115
117
117
117
117
117
(early/late) 117/138
119
(sweet/sour) 119/140
(early/late) 120/168
120
121
122
(early/late) 122/156
124
124
125
128
129
131
152
(sweet/sour) 161/185
174
(buster) 175


Horizontal Usmash kill %s. Basic Mario training mode FD being hit from default position. No DI, just point where Mario hits blastzone

92
(2nd hit sourspot) 120
(sourspot) 122

Diddy, Megaman, Link, TL, Rob, Samus, ZSS, Lucas.. those are the few i can think of who have good enough OoS options to punish it. Some of those i only mentioned because of their extended grab range, the others i mentioned because they can item throw OoS.

Edit: Megaman and mewtwo could probably footstool OoS for a hard punish. Maybe others too.

You make it sound better than it actually is. Mario's Usmash is -20 on block, -17 on its last active hit. Everybody's non tether dash grab is fast enough after putting down shield, it's just a matter of frames spent dashing to make up the distance. On first active hit frame, you've got 4-7 frames of dashing before Mario's spot dodge, or you can be Falcon or Bowser with an amazing dash grab reach. Besides that, there's Marth's tipper Fsmash - you can be pushed right into tipper range. Bayonetta, Little Mac, Diddy Kong, Zelda, and Mewtwo's Dtilt. Wario's Waft. Cloud's Cross Slash. There's plenty of ways to inflict violence in ~10 frames when you're only being pushed one Mario's length of distance.

I'd like to weigh in on Mario's Usmash. S tier would be a ludicrous spot for him. Limb intangibility can't be the deal breaker since there's several other characters with that on their Usmash, a dozen swordsmen that effectively have the same effect on every sword swing, one guy with super armor, and two more guys with total invincibility. Mario's is above average for startup and endlag, while being below average in kill power. The biggest advantage in my eyes is that massive hitbox on a character with so little range on his normals. A tier is the absolute highest I'd consider placing him. And possibly Luigi a tier lower for having a sourspot close to his body and slightly less horizontal range. Doc as well because it's a horizontal kill move with the unacceptable property of sending the victim in a direction dependent on where they are. It's not enough to hit the guy for a kill, you need to hit them in just the right way. When using this against an airborne target, you're totally at the move's mercy. However, the kill power is decent, better than Mario if you're close to a ledge and you know, hit them correctly.

Ness' Usmash has weird utility as technically Ness' fastest OoS option. I'd rarely pick it over Nair but it's a thing.

It's tied with basic shield grab. And I should note that the Usmash hitbox begins on his butt, not in front of him until frame 9. And with Ness there's no doubt you would prefer a grab over a 9% hit with no combo or kill potential.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

You make it sound better than it actually is. Mario's Usmash is -20 on block, -17 on its last active hit. Everybody's non tether dash grab is fast enough after putting down shield, it's just a matter of frames spent dashing to make up the distance. On first active hit frame, you've got 4-7 frames of dashing before Mario's spot dodge, or you can be Falcon or Bowser with an amazing dash grab reach. Besides that, there's Marth's tipper Fsmash - you can be pushed right into tipper range. Bayonetta, Little Mac, Diddy Kong, Zelda, and Mewtwo's Dtilt. Wario's Waft. Cloud's Cross Slash. There's plenty of ways to inflict violence in ~10 frames when you're only being pushed one Mario's length of distance.

First of all, Mario's usmash definitely does enough shield pushback to put him out of range of Little Mac's dtilt or Cloud's Cross Slash. Second of all, does this take into account shieldstun? Mario's usmash does a pretty decent amount of shieldstun.

I'd like to weigh in on Mario's Usmash. S tier would be a ludicrous spot for him. Limb intangibility can't be the deal breaker since there's several other characters with that on their Usmash, a dozen swordsmen that effectively have the same effect on every sword swing, one guy with super armor, and two more guys with total invincibility. Mario's is above average for startup and endlag, while being below average in kill power. The biggest advantage in my eyes is that massive hitbox on a character with so little range on his normals. A tier is the absolute highest I'd consider placing him.

Lol, you're insane, dude. The intangibility makes Mario's usmash one of the best anti-airs in the game, since you can't even challenge it with an aerial. And out of other similar anti-air usmashes (most of which I would rank A or S), it has by far the best framedata. Suggesting that Mario's usmash isn't S tier is what's ludicrous.

 

[BSP]

First of all, Mario's usmash definitely does enough shield pushback to put him out of range of Little Mac's dtilt or Cloud's Cross Slash. Second of all, does this take into account shieldstun? Mario's usmash does a pretty decent amount of shieldstun.
.

Yes, his "-" numbers all take shield stun into account. You have 13 frames to punish mario after dropping shield if he hits you with the back part of Usmash, which is what every mario player is going to aim for. As Zapp said, that's plenty of time for any relevant character to punish mario. That being said, risk/reward is generally in mario's favor for the move as a whole. If it isn't S tier it's still A for sure.

Also Pac-Man is in that group of item OoS punishers.

 

[kendikong]

Should take into account usmashes with excellent jump cancels like Mewtwo's

 

[MarshieMan]

Should take into account usmashes with excellent jump cancels like Mewtwo's

Sonic as well. His JCUS slides sooo far.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so I will probably have the list up for tonight, so leave any last comments by then.

 

[ARGHETH]

Is the title going to change anytime soon?

 

[BunbUn129]

MK's up smash actually isn't that good. It does only 9%, and can't hit shorter characters unless MK reads their SH or landing option. Though it kills at pretty good percents and scales well with rage, it's still one of the weaker up smashes. The only truly good thing is its frame-8 start-up; ending lag is above 30 frames and doesn't help the low damage when it comes to safety, and it's active only for 3 frames, with a gap of several frames between each active hitbox that often allow opponents to sneak in a hitbox and trade, interrupting the move. Both Shuttle Loop and F smash--and to an extent back air--overshadow it, with SL being easier to land at kill percents thanks to set-ups and f smash for obvious reasons.

B-tier, maybe even C, especially considering characters like Fox and Yoshi have similar start-up numbers but with better hitboxes and power, and others like the Mario Bros. have much better numbers on top of better reward.

MK's up smash seems better than it really is because of how frequently it's used in low-percent combos.

 

[Litany]

Ganondorf's U-smash is probably a candidate for S-tier; I feel it's definitely A-tier at least. It's -6 on block, and the pushback it has ensures that it's pretty much unpunishable. It's a bit slow in terms of startup at frame 21 and only stays out until frame 24, but it has a heavily skewed risk-reward ratio. Deals 21% uncharged if sourspotted, 24% sweetspotted and kills opponents at ~80 and scales heavily with rage. It's a great move for pressuring shields (especially opponents on platforms) since it takes out more than half an opponent's shield, and leaves them in a situation where they have very limited options (roll is covered by following it with another U-smash, jump and staying in shield is covered by FH N-air, which will break the shield if the hold it and catch jumps).

 

[MarshieMan]

Mario's Usmash is also useful for low% combos and ending his Utilt strings.

Also Doc can combo Bair > Usmash at low-mid% and its super good