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Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

What will you like to discuss next?

  • Jabs

    Votes: 29 72.5%
  • Grabs

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Continue with Specials

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Doc's jab is better than Mario's for a lot of reasons. It's basically a worse Luigi jab which isn't bad. Connects consistently but unlike Mario, Doc's has WBKB and better angle in general so it allows for mixups at a bevy of %s including low %. Jab1 > Jab2 > Grab or Jab1 > Grab for instance work much better with Doc than they do with Mario. The only thing worse is the FAF but the better angle, higher damage, and greater mixup potential kind of alleviate this issue.
Mario's jab has set knockback too... Doc (and Luigi) just has happens to have higher set knockback. For Doc, his has pretty much double Mario's.

Fox's jab is also pretty underrated in the current list, same with Sheik, Samus and maybe Palutena. WFT's burial alone should be enough to move her up. ROB also has some mixup potential with his jab, but it's not an excellent move. Robin, Pac, Cloud, Ness, Zelda all look too high.
With the rapid jab frame data A_Kae found, Fox is tied with Duck Hunt for lowest SDI on a rapid jab at x0.4 to most characters have x1.0 with Falco and Greninja having high(er) SDI; Falco's has a x1.2 multiplier, the highest for a rapid jab, while Greninja has x1.1. Fox is also the only character who has a rapid jab setup hit and I didn't covert the numbers from it for the table on the previous page, but it has a 180° hit angle. 0° is forward; 180° is backwards. Fox's rapid jab setup pulls you into his rapid jab which does decent damage per hit, 0.7%, while also being fairly difficult to escape. One of the best rapid jabs in game. For Palutena, she's also one of the few characters to have a hit angle on her rapid jab that pulls you in, so kind of like Fox, her rapid jab is difficult to escape. A good rapid jab, but as whole, her jab's only main weakness would be its startup.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Mario's jab has set knockback too... Doc (and Luigi) just has happens to have higher set knockback. For Doc, he has pretty much double Mario's.


With the rapid jab frame data A_Kae found, Fox is tied with Duck Hunt for lowest SDI on a rapid jab. Fox is also the only character who has a rapid jab setup hit and I didn't covert the numbers from it for the table up there, but it has a 180° hit angle. 0° is forward; 180° is backwards. Fox's rapid jab setup pulls you into his rapid jab which does decent damage per hit, 0.7%, while also being fairly difficult to escape. One of the best rapid jabs in game. For Palutena, she's also one of the few characters to have a hit angle on her rapid jab that pulls you in, so kind of like Fox, her rapid jab is difficult to escape. A good rapid jab, but as whole, her jab's only main weakness would be its startup.
Oh, my bad. I should also note that Doc's jabs are unlike Mario's in that his Jab1 and Jab2 do not have the Sakurai angle like his. To get an angle similar to Doc's, Mario has to....tip his jabs.
 

~ Gheb ~

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S-Tier: Mac, Rosie, Luigi, Falcon
A-Tier: Fox, Mario, Doc, Sheik, Peach, Yoshi, Villager, probably a bunch of thers

Not good / sub-standard: Samus, Bowser Jr., Jigglypuff, Lucario

:059:
 

Funbot28

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Ok new update incoming:


TL;DR:
:4villager: S -> A
:4charizard: B -> S
:4zss: A -> B
:4fox: B -> A
:4peach: C -> A
:4yoshi: B -> A
:4luigi: C -> A
:4bayonetta2: C -> B
:4sheik: C -> B
:4greninja: C -> B
:4miibrawl: C -> B
:4bowserjr: B -> C
:4jigglypuff: D -> C
:4palutena: D -> C
:4samus: F -> D
:4lucario: F -> D
:4falco: C -> F
 

arbustopachon

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I'd drop Zard to A. Zard's jab is really good but S is a bit of overkill, Cap and Luigi have better jabs imo.
 

Vyrnx

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I definitely feel like Falcon's has to be S tier when we're talking jabs. Also Bowser Jr's in F.

Another thing that I didn't mention about Falcon's jab is the absurd base knock back on the rapid jab finisher. 110 BKB on a 45 degree angle move is insane and literally gives Falcon the entire stage even when he connects it at extremely low percents.
 
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LRodC

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I definitely feel like Falcon's has to be S tier when we're talking jabs. Also Bowser Jr's in F.

Another thing that I didn't mention about Falcon's jab is the absurd base knock back on the rapid jab finisher. 110 BKB on a 45 degree angle move is insane and literally gives Falcon the entire stage even when he connects it at extremely low percents.
Jr's still has high damage and locking capabilities. It's probably not F worthy. I'd say D.

Also, Charizard is a tier too high. I'd say Falcon's could go up to S.
 
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Guido65

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Another thing that I didn't mention about Falcon's jab is the absurd base knock back on the rapid jab finisher. 110 BKB on a 45 degree angle move is insane and literally gives Falcon the entire stage even when he connects it at extremely low percents.
Falcon's rapid jab finisher is also insanely disjointed.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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What's up with Peach in A? It's got short reach, 5% damage on its full jab combo, no mixup potential, and has far too much endlag to be safe to throw out. I even doubt its safe on hit. I'm sure it's valuable to her when none of her moves compare in startup, but with the rest of the cast, it's just ROBs. And ROBs is safer while just having one frame more of startup. Why are they three tiers apart? She should be down there with him.

And Charizard's jab is not S tier. We haven't even heard an explanation for why it's good yet beyond a vague assertion that it's his best move. And I object to Falco in F tier. No frame 2 jab deserves such a low placement. And the endlag is average so I don't see why going into rapid jab is so necessary upon landing it when you could mixup with grab instead. It's not there to be a good move, it's there to be a less committal option than a dodge for warding off punishes. Put him in D if you're so mad at it. Peach and Lucario are both more fitting for F tier. Wario, and Metaknight as well.
 

arbustopachon

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On Zard's jab. His jab Is good because it has decent range, ok startup, reasonable endlag, is the strongest non multi-jab jab percent wise at 12% and jab3 is intangible and has similar range to zard's ftilt while also being an ok kill move at the edge (5%, 60 bkb, 130 kgb, angles go from 70º to 45º).

Zard's jab can be comboed into reliably out of his nair at low percents and jab3 can combo into fair.

The most important part of his jab is jab 2 tho. Jab 2 pops the opponent into the air in front of charizard putting them on a very vulnerable position, they cant airdodge unless they are floaty, attacking is risky since zard can armor through it with fly, shield and punish or just hit you with usmash. You are most of the time forced to jump away from Zard leaving you in the air with no jumps which is kinda an awful situation to be in, specially if the Zard manages to read you. Plus on fastfallers zard can hit jab 2 to grab fairly consistently if they are not expecting it.

Zard can also "jab walk" which is not very good nor very useful, but sometimes helps.

So yeah, zards jab just hits kinda hard, kinda fast, can kinda kill and can put the opponent in awkward positions. It is good but not really S rank worthy. Personally i think it should be on A. (̶Or̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶B̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶d̶r̶o̶p̶p̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶o̶b̶i̶n̶)̶.

Also Zard's u-smash is secretely his best move.
 

Ffamran

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What's up with Peach in A? It's got short reach, 5% damage on its full jab combo, no mixup potential, and has far too much endlag to be safe to throw out. I even doubt its safe on hit. I'm sure it's valuable to her when none of her moves compare in startup, but with the rest of the cast, it's just ROBs. And ROBs is safer while just having one frame more of startup. Why are they three tiers apart? She should be down there with him.
While I agree with Peach's being high, shouldn't both her and ROB's be more in C-tier? They're just fast get off me options which most jabs are.

And I object to Falco in F tier. No frame 2 jab deserves such a low placement. And the endlag is average so I don't see why going into rapid jab is so necessary upon landing it when you could mixup with grab instead. It's not there to be a good move, it's there to be a less committal option than a dodge for warding off punishes. Put him in D if you're so mad at it. Peach and Lucario are both more fitting for F tier. Wario, and Metaknight as well.
Except Falco's jab does deserve that low of a placement. The recovery on his jab 2 and rapid jab finisher are fairly high; jab 2 has 21 frames and the finisher has 34 frames. Jab 1 has average 19 recovery frames, but when you figure about the other good jab mixups, they usually have even lower recovery like for jab 1's, Bowser's 12 frames, Captain Falcon's 13, Fox's 16, Kirby's 13, Luigi's 16, Mario's 17 -- rarely do I see Mario use jab mixups, though --, Mr. Game & Watch's 13, Palutena's 16, Ryu's 13, Samus's 14, Sheik's 15, and Yoshi's 14. Jab 2's have Link's 14 frames, Sheik's 13, and Triple D's 16. Some just rock higher knockback or "better" hit angles like DK, Ike, Lucina, and Marth. Those lower, around 5 frames do make a difference. There is also the issue with animation. All the characters I listed when they jab, they don't lean in like Falco. When they jab, they throw out a hit and pull back quickly or in the case of characters like Lucina and Palutena, use weapons, so their bodies wouldn't be in the way to begin with. Falco leans in with his head just asking for a boxer to knock him out and break his beak forcing him to eat through a tube. Sheik throws her body in too, but only for jab 2. Falco does this for both jab 1 and jab 2 while moving forward with each jab. Falco jabbing and trying for a mixup also moves forward making the frame disadvantage much worse; Falco's jab 1 doesn't become remotely positive until 75 when it's -1 on-hit. At 0%, it's -4 which isn't bad, right? Just 4 frames... There are characters with frame 4 and below moves that kill. There are moves that are frame 4 and below invincible that also kill. Jab 2 is even worse in this regard considering it has higher recovery and lower overall knockback.

Mixing up with Falco's jab requires that you're finding someone who's not afraid of pressing buttons which isn't uncommon in lower-level play, doesn't have a frame 4-below option, and that you space his jab 1 very well. Oh, and luck too. Jab to grab isn't exactly ideal when Falco's grab is frame 8. Melee's frame 7 grab was apparently too fast, so Falco rocks the second-slowest melee -- as in not-tether or ranged like Greninja's -- grab in the game under Bowser and Little Mac's frame 9 grabs. Fastest option he has outside of shielding and dodging is Utilt, frame 5, and that doesn't exactly have horizontal range. Ftilt's the second-fastest option except it has no base knockback, so it's unsafe on-hit too... Dtilt's probably the best option except it only hits low, Up Smash, Down Smash, and Reflector which is basically like Ftilt are definitely committal, and Side Smash, frame 17, is a read and the opponent being a complete idiot to let that happen.

The recovery on jab 1 and jab 2 essentially force you to link them and if you're at jab 2, well... rapid jab and that's a pile of crap with its 0.4% per hit, 3 set knockback, and 1.2x SDI multiplier. The recovery on jab 1 and jab 2 is similar to other jabs that aren't good mixups, but are fine when it comes to linking into a jab combo like Charizard, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Peach, the Pits, ZSS, etc. Falco's doesn't do that either. It can't mixup well because of its "average" or "high" depending on how you look at it, recovery, and the fact that after jab 2, its reliability drops hard. Speaking of depending on how you look at it, Falco's jab is arguably more committal than his Ftilt and Dtilt both of which have similar recovery -- 20 for Ftilt and 19 for Dtilt --, but higher, although still fast startup. Here's the thing, his jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt pretty much overlap in range and even coverage, but that only really applies to Ftilt since it an angle, however, if you're looking at low coverage, then yeah, Dtilt too since jab and Dtilt also hit low with Ftilt being capable of hitting low. With aerial, there's always Bair and I would even say landing Nair is less committal and Reflector are less committal than jab.

For rapid jab, compared to other rapid jabs that don't link well, it also just straight up sucks compared to the others. For example, the only other above x1.0 SDI rapid jab is Greninja's. Greninja's at least does 1% per hit and assuming the hits are naturally disjointed since they're water blades, Greninja's rapid jab is relatively safe or just safe compared to Falco who leans in spinning. Or someone like Bowser Jr. who people say has a bad jab, but he's doing 2% per hit. The Pits don't have really good rapid jabs, but still do double Falco's per hit. What you have is a rapid jab that not only has poor connection probably due to its 1.2 SDI multiplier, but also does low damage per hit and isn't safe because of the position Falco's in compared to everyone else who hits out normally rather than lean in while hitting. If rapid jab was decent or as good as say, Bayonetta, Fox, or Palutena's, then whatever, right? Oh look, you made a mistake and I can't think of something to punish you with, so I'll just jab and tack on some damage to at least do something. Fox can and does that often. Did something stupid and know you didn't react fast enough for an Up Smash punish? Just jab. Fast option, good damage, and kicks them out for you to be in a safe zone. Or characters like Peach and ROB. Theirs don't do anything really well, but the simple thing of get off me, get away, and here's some damage. Falco fails to do that. If it didn't, then it would just be an average C-tier jab. The problem is when it fails to do the most basic of things, knocking people back, that almost all moves do while also failing to do anything else (especially well) to make up for it is when it's a F-tier jab to me. Lucario, Meta Knight, Peach, ROB, and Wario at least can knock people back out even if they don't do a lot of damage or aren't as fast. In the case of Meta Knight whose Ftilt and Dtilt are arguably his jabs, his actual jab can at least do what Captain Falcon, Fox, Little Mac, and Pikachu do at the ledge and that's put out a repeating hitbox. The only problem, of course, is that Meta Knight's is a rapid jab with a finisher and not a repeating jab 1 with almost no recovery compared to his. That being said, I do think Meta Knight could drop down, but to D-tier since it at least does something well.

I would also argue that any more should be "there to be a good move". What they do, of course, is what they're good at and therefore, they're a good move. Ganondorf's jab pre-patch and post-patch isn't an amazing move, but it's still good for being a faster option than Ftilt and Dtilt and hitting hit can allow him to challenge aerial approaches. Or in the case of his Utilt, it's still a good move for punishes, especially after shield breaks. It's not an amazing move, but for what it does, it is a good move. It's when comparing them that we judge them on which is better, but I stand by the idea that all moves should be good at what they do. So, something might not be a S-tier Dtilt, but it's a Dtilt that functions and does whatever it does well. Falco's jab to me, doesn't do anything good. It doesn't link well like almost all jabs and it doesn't work well for mixups mostly because of its average / high recovery and sort of knockback. As a fast move, it's almost like a trade and a poor one. Falco slaps you for 3%, 5% if he goes into jab 2, and if he's lucky maybe 8%-ish percent if he connects rapid jab. The opponent? Captain Falcon and Fox can jab back at him for equal or more damage at low percents since they fall to the ground during his jab, Marth can consistently get Dolphin Slash during Falco's jab for anywhere from 6% to 11%, and Jigglypuff can outright kill him with Rest. Luigi? Each time Falco goes into a jab, Luigi can slap 12% onto him over and over and over with Nair whether he decides to mixup or go for a complete jab combo. D1's comment on Falco's jab is spot on: https://youtu.be/qdlzF92jZtw?t=108. Luigi or any character for that matter, cannot do this to any other jab. Samus maybe if her spacing is poor -- Samus jabs like a normal percent and pulls back -- or if she goes for jab 2 at low percents.

Falco's jab, as D1 described it, is just fast. That's it. It does have the ability to ledge cancel rapid jab, but that's situational. After that, there's nothing about it that's good. The fact it fails to do the most basic of things that all moves do makes it even worse and the main reason why I feel like it should be F-tier by itself -- literally F-tier for failure as a jab and as a move. It's not a Peach and ZSS fast, reliable jab that doesn't do anything else, but a fast jab that doesn't do the most basic of things expected from a move. For that, average and slower jabs that are reliable like Jigglypuff, Lucario, and Wario are better because they're at reliable and they do the most basic of things all moves do: knock people back. Using Peach, Falco's likely to the the same damage as her complete jab, but be at a disadvantage when rapid jab fails and when mixups are risky and not reliable with its recovery and knockback. Peach gets you out and for almost no risk; 5% on you and 0% on her. Falco is more like 3% to 5% on you and potentially 10% or death on him.
 
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Nysyr

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Nah fam,

Lucario's Jab is F tier worthy alone, and much worse than Falco's. Only Lucario's Jab gets you killed for even pressing the button, and his kit is improved by not having it.
 

Ffamran

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Nah fam,

Lucario's Jab is F tier worthy alone, and much worse than Falco's. Only Lucario's Jab gets you killed for even pressing the button, and his kit is improved by not having it.
As someone who doesn't know or watch much about Lucario, doesn't it connect decently? Also, does Aura not affect Lucario's jab so that when Lucario is at higher percents, it might connect more easily? Looking at its raw data, it has normal, x1.0 SDI, so that shouldn't be a problem, Aura effects hit lag even if it's x1.0, so I don't know about that... What raw data doesn't say, well, I don't know if it does, are the transition frames. According to sixriver, it takes both jab 2 and jab 3 13 frames to transition from the previous jab part. I think that's the highest transition frame I've seen, but if tuned right, it might not even matter... or in a different game like Street Fighter where there are moves with +13 frame gaps and function just fine.

Dantarion's data dump of Lucario: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/lucario. They're outdated as the most recent data dumps are pre-Cloud.

sixriver's page on Lucario: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...p7LDkiaeWCfC7Z8g1NZFU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0.

Edit: If they both fail at connecting, then I would still stand by Falco being F-tier, but with Lucario. Every other jab at least connects well and/or, in the case of single-hit jabs, knock people back. In other words, they're all reliable whereas Falco and Lucario's aren't no matter if they're slow, average, or fast. I'm not kidding when I say I would rather have Zelda's frame 11 jab or Ganondorf or Lucina's pre-patch jabs.
 
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Masonomace

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Just to keep in mind, Lucario Jab Combo fresh at 0% will deal ~5.1975%. Base Aura level makes Jab Combo deal ~7.875%. That's not saying a lot. . .I'd be generous & think that Lucario Jab is D tier, but I find myself not even using the move that often. Pivoted Ftilt or even Dtilt into backwards crawl are better options that committing to Jab, especially since Jab1 is only ~1.65% & is frame 6?? No thanks. F tier is my opinion.
 
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Bowserboy3

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I still argue that :4zss:'s Jab being frame 1 warrants it at least A tier. Any Jab that's frame 1 and connects should be at least this high IMO. It's essentially a get out of jail free card in many grounded situations. The fact that ZSS's can't confirm much else out of it prevents it from being S tier (though Jab 1 to Boost Kick at higher percents is a thing), but it is legitimately a very useful option for anyone lucky enough to have it. ZSS's close range game would be a lot worse and more punishable without it.

---

As someone who doesn't know or watch much about Lucario, doesn't it connect decently? Also, does Aura not affect Lucario's jab so that when Lucario is at higher percents, it might connect more easily?
Lucario's Jab connects pretty reliably until around just over 110-ish% IIRC. Aura doesn't affect this much, and you just have to time the hits a little slower (essentially not mash the A button).

For me, Lucario's jab is just bad because it's like a huge commitment using it. It's endlag is very high for a jab. You can't even just throw jab 1 out as a bait, as you'll likely get punished for it. If the endlag on each jab was lower by around 2-3 frames each, I could see it being at least C tier.
 
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ILOVESMASH

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Falco's Jab is definitely not F-tier. Its frame 2 so its able to break a ton of combos and just generally get the opponent off of him. It also has really good range for a jab. Its inability to connect properly (though I believe this is mitigated by rage) is an issue, but thats what makes this otherwise S-Rank Jab into a C-Rank one, not an F-Rank one.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Lucario's jab fails to connect a lot, its hitbox is complete garbage, it does very little damage and has the same amount of startup lag as his grab. If you get that frame window you WILL go for the grab. Period.

Like I said earlier, Lucario may as well not have a jab at all.

:059:
 

TheHypnotoad

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I agree that Falcon should be moved to S tier. It comes out frame 3; it's one of the few jabs in the game that you can just hold the button to jab repeatedly, so you don't need to worry about timing at all; it has very good range; and both the gentleman and the rapid jab have very good knockback which can KO near the ledge. You see Falcon players use his jab all the time, and it's for a reason: the move is amazing.
 

Routa

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I still argue that :4zss:'s Jab being frame 1 warrants it at least A tier. Any Jab that's frame 1 and connects should be at least this high IMO. It's essentially a get out of jail free card in many grounded situations. The fact that ZSS's can't confirm much else out of it prevents it from being S tier (though Jab 1 to Boost Kick at higher percents is a thing), but it is legitimately a very useful option for anyone lucky enough to have it. ZSS's close range game would be a lot worse and more punishable without it.
I personally think that B tier is right for it. There are Jabs with higher reward and usability than ZSS' in the B tier for example I would argue that Brawler's jab is better overall than ZSS'. Being only 1 frame slower and having greater reward and mixup potential makes it arguable better in majority of the cases. If anything Brawler's Jab deserves to move up. But oh well... Maybe I'm biased.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I personally think that B tier is right for it. There are Jabs with higher reward and usability than ZSS' in the B tier for example I would argue that Brawler's jab is better overall than ZSS'. Being only 1 frame slower and having greater reward and mixup potential makes it arguable better in majority of the cases. If anything Brawler's Jab deserves to move up. But oh well... Maybe I'm biased.
I do really like Brawlers jab in practice. But the rapid jab is highly escapable. Some genius wrote his finisher to have less range than the multihits, so all they have to do is DI to the end of its range, not even get out. And since there's no jab 3 to finish with instead, all Brawler has on hit is mixups, and eventually they catch on and start responding to that.

So yeah, zards jab just hits kinda hard, kinda fast, can kinda kill and can put the opponent in awkward positions. It is good but not really S rank worthy. Personally i think it should be on A. (̶Or̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶B̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶d̶r̶o̶p̶p̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶o̶b̶i̶n̶)̶.
I agree with Robin moving down. I've mentioned in the past that once you're at a point where wind jab can kill, the jab 2 knocks them too high. You can even observe this in training mode (which has no rage that would add to the problem) that middle to lightweights can escape the windjab finisher with no DI inputs. Heavyweights and fast fallers need to make an effort, but your DI/SDI doesn't have to be godly. And you can't delay jab 2 or the rapid jab because initiating wind requires rapid pressing. Fire jab has less of this issue, and also kills better than any other jab in the game horizontally. Notably better than randomly landing Zard's farthest hitbox on jab 3, or Bowser/Ganon's. To escape fire jab, you explicitly have to be a floaty since all you can DI are jab 1 and 2 upward, or perhaps be caught from the air. So Robin's jab is pretty dubious to call a "frame 4 kill move". Plus it's one of the slow startup jabs with extremely high endlag should you ever miss. More endlag than Ftilt and Dtilt in fact, or Utilt if you count from last active hit frame instead of first. And like all frame 4 or higher startup jabs, you have to compare to dodge options. Robin could have a hitbox out on 4, or be intangible by 3 with spotdodge and suffer less endlag.

I agree that Falcon should be moved to S tier. It comes out frame 3; it's one of the few jabs in the game that you can just hold the button to jab repeatedly,
Well I wouldn't say few. :4mario::4drmario::4kirby::4falcon::4myfriends::4littlemac::4lucas::4ness::4miibrawl::4pacman::4pikachu::4shulk::4sonic::4wiifit::4zss::4bowserjr::4fox::4jigglypuff::4cloud::4villager:(technically jab 1 and 2 on repeat, but jab 2 has link window back into 1 that is separate from its true endlag):4ryu:(you can't hold A, but you can get similarly fast jabs from repeated pressing thanks to jab 1 linking into jab 1 with the same window it links into other moves). That's 21, just over a third of the cast. You could also make further arguments :4olimar: who has little time between jabs by holding, :4yoshi::4bowser: :4gaw:and:4samus: for having low endlag or that holding crouch and performing jab with tilt stick is a way to get out jabs fast and consistent that you're pretty much getting the same effect.
 
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Wintermelon43

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...You did it AGAIN!!

You put one of the worst jabs (:4peach:'s) into A tier........

Ugh.

And could anyone tell me the reason for Villager's being A. I always thought it was mediocre, but apprantatly there's a kill confirm or something that makes it A? Can anyone tell me what that is???
 

Ffamran

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Falco's Jab is definitely not F-tier. Its frame 2 so its able to break a ton of combos and just generally get the opponent off of him. It also has really good range for a jab. Its inability to connect properly (though I believe this is mitigated by rage) is an issue, but thats what makes this otherwise S-Rank Jab into a C-Rank one, not an F-Rank one.
Little Mac and ZSS have frame 1 jabs and it's not that common for them to break combos -- setups maybe, but not combos. Why? 'Cause they're light. Falco is light too which is why jab and Nair interrupts are rare let alone the fact that Nair doesn't start with hitboxes like Luigi or Mario's Nairs. The other thing is that ironically, Falco doesn't fall fast enough. Captain Falcon and Fox with Capt. also being heavy fall fast enough they can land and jab back against some characters, Falco being one, if people hesitate during their jabs. That's 5% from Falco and 9% or more from Capt. and Fox. Also, most characters don't do ground-only combos, they're likely to pop you into the air which means jab is no longer an option. At best, it's a panic button to try and do something against someone approaching you that Ftilt, Dtilt, and Reflector serve better as they're slightly slower, but have more range, more knockback, and except for Reflector, have about the same recovery. You can slap someone with jab 1, but after that, you're kind of screwed because of its average or high depending on how you look at it -- average for just any jab, but definitely high for a mixup jab -- recovery and low knockback.

By not connecting reliably and being able to do what almost every move in this game does and that's knock people back far enough to be safe, it fails at the most basic of things. That's not a C-tier jab let alone even a D-tier jab when the current listing of D-tier jabs all connect decently compared to Falco's or makes up by being tuned towards something which in Samus's case, is mixups, something Falco's can't do with its recovery. It has speed, it has range because Falco steps forward and leans in which is a double-edged sword because of how the developers animated it and because of its recovery leaving Falco posing waiting for someone to knock him out, it can ledge cancel rapid jab, a situational, but fine thing, and it's one of the few anti-air jabs in the game. Falco, Lucina, Marth, kind of Roy, and Ryu all have jabs that either start or end up high. Anti-air jab is great, but in Falco's case, it's not safe and it's not really reliable because what happens after it usually ends up with his opponent being able to jump away or even hitting him back. Lucina and Marth? They can possibly land a Ftilt or Side Smash if they don't choose to jab 2 to swat you away while Roy and Ryu with his heavy jab just swats you away which in Ryu's case, can end up killing you. Anyway, all of those, its frame 2 startup, its step in hit, and its high starting hitbox are "minor" things. The major things are what it does and compared to every jab in the game, it has nothing on them: it doesn't do the basic thing of being able to knock people back because it fails to connect into rapid jab and its finisher and it doesn't work a reliable mixup since you can jump out or hit him because of the recovery.

If it was "special" like Meta Knight, Pikachu, or Samus's and did something like jab 1 does 5%, jab 2 does 7%, rapid jab does 3% a pop, and rapid jab finisher does 5%, then sure, it not connecting reliably is fine when it does that ludicrous amount of damage for a jab. It would be the jab that fails at everything, except making your opponent fear taking a crapton of damage from his jab. Or something stupid like his rapid jab doesn't have a finisher, but if you only hit with the minimum amount of hits, it's -2 on-shield -- basically stealing SFV Rashid's unmashed light punch Spinning Mixer. The finisher is now his jab 3 now which doesn't connect like Samus's jab 2, so it's basically a mixup. Cool, somewhat safe shield pressure rapid jab and a frame 5 mixup jab 3 that goes alongside with Ftilt, Dtilt, Up Smash, Down Smash, dash attack grab, etc. Right now? Why would you be afraid of taking 3% to 5% when you can trade back double or just kill Falco when he jabs you? Captain Falcon, (Dr.) Mario, Fox, Jigglypuff, Little Mac, Luigi, Lucina, Marth, PAC-MAN, Roy, Ryu, Villager, probably Wario, and Yoshi certainly don't care. Why would you be afraid when you're just taking "glancing hits"? Jigglypuff, Kirby, Little Mac, Lucina, Marth, Sonic, and more can just jump out taking only 3% to 5%. You're really better off using Ftilt to do 9% with some knockback instead of hoping for a chance to mixup with jab. Moving away is a better option than using jab since while you're not doing damage, you're also not going to risk taking damage for picking one of the most basic freaking options in the game: jab.
 

Fenny

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...You did it AGAIN!!

You put one of the worst jabs (:4peach:'s) into A tier........

Ugh.

And could anyone tell me the reason for Villager's being A. I always thought it was mediocre, but apprantatly there's a kill confirm or something that makes it A? Can anyone tell me what that is???
A frame 2 2-hit jab that allows you to continue pressuring the opponent after the two hits or be used as a mix-up tool is one of the worst in the game? Are we talking about the same character?

And yes, Villager has kill setups out of his jab. Jab to axe, for one. A jab can also lead into a situational read kill off of Uair or Fsmash.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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And could anyone tell me the reason for Villager's being A. I always thought it was mediocre, but apprantatly there's a kill confirm or something that makes it A? Can anyone tell me what that is???
Villager's jabs have pretty average endlag if you miss, but jab 2 has an early link window back into jab 1, which is pretty unique and doesn't require you to hit anything. The punches are so quick that there's only 5 frames in which there's no hitbox active, and it's the only jab combo in the game that nobody can shield grab unless they read when villager stops jabbing. And he'll probably stop jabbing once he's pushed them too far for their grab to connect, though he'll still be at the mercy of tether grabs. The kill confirm is jab 2 into Axe at high percents, and it's largely dependent on DI and the matchup. Fast fallers are at the greatest risk, but is still escapable if you know this aspect of the matchup and what option (double jump, shield, jab) is the best thing to buffer as a response. Plus the two jabs often combo into another two jabs. And comboing into utilt is another option if you lack the axe. It was previously S tier, but I had to remind people that jab's link into Axe is largely misunderstood to be guaranteed when I doubt it actually is in any scenario.

Pit's Jab really ought to be in B...
Debatable. It sort of compares with Cloud and Ike, but those are probably the worst two in B right now (or in my opinion Mario, but that requires a long explanation). And at least they come out a frame faster and can repeat jab 1 by holding the button. There's no mixup potential, just a frame 5 move with a worse FAF than even spot dodge (which makes you intangible on 2, definitely the preferred option for dealing with approaches)
 
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Vyrnx

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The Falcon jab discussion also reminded me of a Falcon jab discussion the old CCI had like a year ago, and a post Trifroze made about why he thinks it's the best jab (CCI is locked so I can't quote):
There's a lot more to jabs than just speed or damage, and Falcon's jab is so good because it's great in every aspect:

- Fast at f3
- Low endlag on all hits, especially jab 2
- 3 active frames
- Decent damage at 9%
- Rapid jab does a lot of damage and reliably connects against fastfallers at low percents
- Holding it out repeats the hitbox extremely fast which beats out approaches, spotdodges and ledge getups
- Gentleman sends the opponent far even at 0%, giving you control
- Kills near the ledge at 130-150% depending on your rage, not at 180%

The only jab that contests Falcon is in my opinion Luigi, with faster startup and more damage but less active frames, more endlag and the inability to kill or hold hitboxes out, so Falcon still has a better one overall. Falcon's jab's only weakness is that it misses some landing animations in the game because it hits relatively high.

Rosalina's (Luma's) jab puts Luma vulnerable to be knocked off the stage every single time and it's always worth going for that and taking the punish, and if Luma isn't in front of Rosalina or present at all, her jab is super slow. It's only good when it hits or when you're pressuring someone with average or below average options on the ledge.

Little Mac's jab is fast but the rapid jab can be SDI'd out of easily by floaties and SDI'd into the ground for shield + punish by fastfallers, and the 3 hit jab doesn't link properly either at low percents. High cooldown on jab 1 and 2 as well, and jab 1 only has one active frame meaning it doesn't catch moving opponents nearly as likely as Falcon's or even Luigi's jabs.

ZSS' jab is fast as well and it's more reliable for connecting properly than Mac's, although the close-up hitbox can be SDI'd out of and punished quite easily at higher percents. It does very low damage though and like with Little Mac's jab, jab 1 only has one active frame and jab 1 and 2 both have high cooldown. Jab 1 has quite a bit more range than Mac's or Falcon's jabs though, but slightly less than on Luigi's. I think it's Falcon > Luigi > ZSS > Mac > Rosalina/Luma out of these characters.

A frame 1 jab is a really good thing to have but honestly isn't any better than a frame 2 one in 90% of the scenarios. Even a frame 3 jab does the exact same job most of the time. There's a lot more important things to consider when it comes to practical scenarios, and I really noticed the difference when switching from Falcon to ZSS. I always thought it'd be amazing to have ZSS' jab on Falcon, but after experiencing both I sometimes think the opposite.

Also, Captain Falcon's jab one refresh by holding A is a lot faster than the other characters who can, except tied with one or two. Shulk, Cloud, Jigglypuff, and most of those characters in that list cannot accomplish the same thing at all as Falcon's jab refresh because they aren't hitting every 2(?) frames, i.e. they will not cover three ledge get up options like Falcon, among other things.
 
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Flamegeyser

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Zard should be in A, Falcon and maybe Fox or Luigi should be in S, ZSS should be moved to A, and Link's grab is actually really good in terms of speed, disjoint, and combo potential. It true combos into kill moves and is an excellent punisher and spacing maneuver. Easily at least B, if not A.
 

Galaxeon

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I'll only speak for my mains :
Greninja's fine where it is.
ZSS is too low, frame 1, secure landings, best get off me option she has, one of the key to her - otherwise poor - floor game, if you hit a shield you can mix-up between stop and shield or go for 2 3 to cross-up their shields, and Jab 1 -> Uspecial is true on some characters (I think) and anyway a good mix-up that can kill. Like this can't be lower than A. Only flaw is its low damage input, which is far from being a problem in Zero Suit's kit.
Bayonetta would be better in C. Too slow, very unsafe and punishable if it misses, yes it deals a lot of damage but you'll rarely use it anyway. Dtilt > Fair > whatever, is safer, quicker and more rewarding. Can't see it on the same level as others B tier Jab imo.
 

Fenny

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Bayonetta would be better in C. Too slow, very unsafe and punishable if it misses, yes it deals a lot of damage but you'll rarely use it anyway. Dtilt > Fair > whatever, is safer, quicker and more rewarding. Can't see it on the same level as others B tier Jab imo.
Yeah I agree. The fact that it can be jumped out of at later percents is a notable detriment. While 20% off a jab is nice when looked at in a vacuum, the fact that her shortest combos do more than that with shorter startup means that it's an inferior choice compared to the rest of her kit.
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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I'd move :4palutena:up to B. Not because it's a great jab, it's rather average overall, but because it's such a big part of her game. She's often using it in neutral and it has decent range allowing her to poke with it, she can use it as a defensive tool to keep pressure off her and as a offensive tool when it does hit giving her a opening to further attack. She's a character you can say will totally miss their jab if they lose it as it does a lot for her.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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We ain't rating by how important the move is to the character, rather how good the move is in general. Follow ups and the like are noted and accounted for, but there's no going "its not an amazing move but its X character's best ground move so A tier".

Palutena's jab isn't particularly great. She can get some use out of it yes, but she kinda has to considering her tilts are craaaaap. Too slow.

Also, it is already in C so I assume you meant up to B in your post.
 

Poisonous

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Wario's jab should move down, it's just a bad move and he's better off using dtilt in any situation where he could jab. His jab comes out on frame 8, only does 9%, no kill power, medicocre range, and to top it all off, it doesn't even reliably link into itself at mid to high %s.
 
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Masonomace

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So here's what I gather.
Rapid Jab: Can only use the rapid jab into finisher & nothing else, including:
:4metaknight:


Singular Jab: Can only jab once & nothing else, including:
:4ganondorf::4pikachu::4feroy: & :4zelda:
(However, Pikachu's IASA linking jab headbutts repeatedly makes it unique among this class. Zelda also has three hits in her one jab so because of that, she only has 8 frames of lag before she acts assuming the third hit connects dealing hitstun or shieldstun.)


One-hit rapids: Can only jab once and or rapid jab with a finisher in the combo, including:
:4mewtwo::4gaw: & :4palutena:


Double Jab: Can jab once or twice in a combo & nothing else, including:
:4bowser::4dk::4jigglypuff::4lucina::4marth::4olimar::4peach::4rob::4samus::4villager::4wario: & :4yoshi:
(Although, Villager has quite the fast jab rate which almost looks like Villager has a rapid jab. Something to note among this class of jab.)


Two-hit rapids: Can jab once or twice & rapid jab with a finisher in the combo, including:
:4bowserjr::4falco::4fox::4dedede::4kirby::4miibrawl: & :4sheik:


Triple Jab: Can jab once twice or three times in a combo & nothing else, including:
:4charizard::4cloud::4drmario::4myfriends::4link::4lucario::4lucas::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4miigun::4miisword::4ness::4pacman::4ryu::4shulk::4sonic::4tlink::4wiifit: & :4zss:


Three-hit rapids: Can jab once twice or three times & be able to rapid jab with a finisher in a combo, including:
:4bayonetta::4falcon::4corrin::4darkpit::4diddy::4duckhunt::4greninja::4littlemac::4pit::4robinm: & :rosalina:
Now then. . .that's the classification of the types of Jabs in the game. I feel that this is pretty important to address since this will automatically tell us the gaps between different Jabs. The biggest notice to bring decent debate is the difference in tiers between :4peach: & :4rob:. A tier versus D tier is really. . .curious to a lot of people I'm guessing, or maybe not. I mean, why should Peach have an A tier ranking & R.O.B. have D tier? Looking by the frame data alone, the mechon has the more definitive victory in that category not to mention more unimportant kill power & stage control from the close-quarters usage. It's fine & dandy that Peach jab is frame 2, but R.O.B. jab is frame 3 & the only things Peach has over R.O.B.'s jab combo are the facts that she has the faster IASA linking Jab1 > Jab2 as well as faster startup. Range is unknown to me, but R.O.B.'s body-type shows that his jab combo hits higher whereas Peach's body-type & hitbox shows her jab combo hitting lower near the center one's stance. Honestly, there's no way they should have this high of a gap between them, but I wouldn't exactly know how to rate them. I guess for the lazy answer I say both of them in D tier.
 
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TriTails

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Yea. Falcon should be in S. Move's disgusting af. Considering top tiers now have either exploitable recovery (Cloud, Rosa, Mario(?)) or light weight (ZSS, Mewtwo, Rosa), it shoots up as a great ledge coverage tool Simply holding A must be respected by the ledge grabber and apparently with enough rage gentleman can KO lightweights... 3 frame move with low FAF and ability to be put out indefinitely? And kills? Yeah. Not the words you'd see in the same sentence every day.

Altho, rapid jab is bad vs F3 N-airs. I break out all the time with Luigi's N-air (Even more consistently than Falco's). However, gentleman is already a strong option that rapid jab can be a secondary upon. Maybe rapid jab against heavyweights to get extra percents, but gentleman vs combo breakers. Did someone mention it can set up a grab? Yeah, it's legit.
 

Bowserboy3

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So here's what I gather.
Rapid Jab: Can only use the rapid jab into finisher & nothing else, including:
:4metaknight:


Singular Jab: Can only jab once & nothing else, including:
:4ganondorf::4pikachu::4feroy: & :4zelda:
(However, Pikachu's IASA linking jab headbutts repeatedly makes it unique among this class. Zelda also has three hits in her one jab so because of that, she only has 8 frames of lag before she acts assuming the third hit connects dealing hitstun or shieldstun.)


One-hit rapids: Can only jab once and or rapid jab with a finisher in the combo, including:
:4mewtwo::4gaw: & :4palutena:


Double Jab: Can jab once or twice in a combo & nothing else, including:
:4bowser::4dk::4jigglypuff::4lucina::4marth::4olimar::4peach::4rob::4samus::4villager::4wario: & :4yoshi:
(Although, Villager has quite the fast jab rate which almost looks like Villager has a rapid jab. Something to note among this class of jab.)


Two-hit rapids: Can jab once or twice & rapid jab with a finisher in the combo, including:
:4bowserjr::4falco::4fox::4dedede::4kirby::4miibrawl: & :4sheik:


Triple Jab: Can jab once twice or three times in a combo & nothing else, including:
:4charizard::4cloud::4drmario::4myfriends::4link::4lucario::4lucas::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4miigun::4miisword::4ness::4pacman::4ryu::4shulk::4sonic::4tlink::4wiifit: & :4zss:


Three-hit rapids: Can jab once twice or three times & be able to rapid jab with a finisher in a combo, including:
:4bayonetta::4falcon::4corrin::4darkpit::4diddy::4duckhunt::4greninja::4littlemac::4pit::4robinm: & :rosalina:
I think :4ryu: should be placed into his own group. Yes, while he can technically fit into the "Can jab once twice or three times in a combo & nothing else", he's the only character in the game to have 2 legitimately different Jabs, being his light jab, which is a jab 1, 2, 3 combo, and his heavy (held) jab, which is his slight upwards angle kick. He's the only character in the game that can change the option of his jab to suit the current situation.

Example 1: The opponent is up close to me? I'll use my frame 2 jab combo that deals 10%, as a quick and reliable get off me option. What's more, if the opponent is at a high enough percent, I can also use this as an alternative to Utilt to link into True Shoryuken.

Example 2: If the opponent is prime for KO, and I need a relatively quick, safe, and decently ranged launcher, I can use heavy Jab, which is safe on shield, comes out on frame 9, and KO's at around 120%. Even with all this, it still good recovery time too. Also deals 10%.

With this in mind, I also want to ask why Ryu is in tier B? Surely, having essentially 2 different options to pick from, one that can combo into his most feared finisher, and one that outright KO's, is enough to put it into A tier. It's not like his jab combo is even bad, it's one of the best in the game, being frame 2 and dealing a solid 10%.

So for now, my opinions stand as this:

:4zss:: B -> A.
:4ryu:: B -> A for certain, or even potentially S.
 
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Masonomace

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I think :4ryu: should be placed into his own group. Yes, while he can technically fit into the "Can jab once twice or three times in a combo & nothing else", he's the only character in the game to have 2 legitimately different Jabs, being his light jab, which is a jab 1, 2, 3 combo, and his heavy (held) jab, which is his slight upwards angle kick. He's the only character in the game that can change the option of his jab to suit the current situation.
Mechanically yes Ryu's jab is among the most different in comparison to the cast. I didn't think about it whenever I was making that spoiler but essentially yes Ryu has more than just "jabbing once twice or three times & nothing else". I've been hit with Jab1 chained into TSRK by my good friend enough to know that this man doesn't mess around. I think twice about my Smash arts in close quarters against this character. :')

I would say that the Double Jabs such as :4wario: can move down from C → D, but I'd think more about the rapid jabs that don't possess a Jab3 ability.

EDIT: Oh right, I wanted to think that :4pikachu:'s jab could rank ↑ from C to B for the several factors that Pikachu uses jab for of course jab locking tumble fall landings, stuffing ledge options like the typical ledge-drop doublejump onto stage, & resembles :4villager:'s jab string in that both cannot be punished with shieldgrab, an option that is quite common to answer even in between jab windows.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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Yea. Falcon should be in S. Move's disgusting af. Considering top tiers now have either exploitable recovery (Cloud, Rosa, Mario(?)) or light weight (ZSS, Mewtwo, Rosa), it shoots up as a great ledge coverage tool Simply holding A must be respected by the ledge grabber
About this, Falcon's repeated jab 1 by holding A has 4 frames of animation between hitboxes. As far as I know, this is the smallest window for repeated jab 1s, but still a liability for covering ledge options. Neutral getup has just one frame of vulnerability before you can pull up shield. Look at Falcon's jab as 7 frames of activity where 3 are a hitbox and 4 are not, that's a 3/7 chance you'll get them before they can shield. That's less than a 50/50 and you don't want to be blocked when jabbing as Falcon near a ledge. Shieldgrab > Back throw > edgeguard is a potential killer for him at virtually any %. For ledge jump, there's one frame of vulnerability for those with a 2 frame air dodge, and two frames for a 3 frame air dodge. A 2 frame air dodge is the same as ledge getup - 3/7 chance of working, but you'll be in a better spot whiffing a move rather than having it blocked, just stop jabbing and try to cover their landing. A 3 frame air dodge (which is the most common) has a 4/7 chance of working. A ledge attack has 2 frames of vulnerability before its hitbox, and is a move that cannot clank, so you'd trade if both become active on the same frame, and that trade would be favorable for the ledge attacker. Jabbing a ledge attack has a 4/7 chance of working, with an additional 1/7 chance of trading. And ledge roll is something you can't cover with jabs, but a human has enough time to react to the animation, stop jabbing, and dash grab/dash attack the opponent from their position.

This is all before you account for the ledge hanger's ability to let go, double jump, and use an aerial against a jabbing falcon. He has to be spaced pretty close to a ledge to ensure he's covering get up, attack, and jump. And very few characters are poorly equipped to get a free attack on Falcon from that position since they can sway from the ledge out of range and Fair at Falcon's outstretched hand. Other characters have enough priority on their Uairs they can shark Falcon's feet from under the ledge. All in all, the option is far from foolproof. Though I acknowledge it's Falcon's best and least commital option for covering ledge options, it's nowhere near options like Lucario's Aura charge or Luma's rapid jab that has a constant hitbox on every frame.
 
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