Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Vyrnx]

(wrong info, ignore)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ryu's jab is amazing but extremely underused mostly because its outclassed by his dtilt and utilt (even though it can do essentially the same things)

Frame 2 and combos into his specials or his 3 hit combo. His heavy jab is a fast and safe high % kill move

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If you do a neutral getup against a Falcon holding A, you will get hit always. It's 100%, not 3/7

This is simply not true. Try it with two controllers in training mode.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh. I might have been too harsh saying Ryu's jab was B tier. It can't be S tier imo. B at worst. A at best.

He has two jabs for diff situations. Hard jab is a good raw poke. Decent damage. Can kill and useful as an AA. Safe when spaced well.

Jab combo is solid damage and can set-up for wake-up situations if they miss a tech. Jab 1 is special cancellable as well.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Robin's jab should not be moved down. Keep it in A tier.

 

[Vyrnx]

This is simply not true. Try it with two controllers in training mode.

You're right, I had never seen someone shield before and simply assumed. Maybe because most people just don't do neutral getups on Falcon's jab because they don't know this. Also, for the record, nobody was comparing it to Luma's rapid jab or aura sphere.

 

[Kofu]

Robin's jab should not be moved down. Keep it in A tier.

Ehhhhhhhh

It doesn't seem comparable to the other jabs in A tier. Its main selling point is that it's got some nice kill power and range (which is very nice, not trying to downplay that). It doesn't really combo into anything or provide mixups to my knowledge, isn't fast between hits, and isn't great on shield like a lot of A-tier jabs are. It also has occasional issues connecting. Nice active frames, however.

 

[Nah]

Robin's jab is kinda borderline to me. I'm not sure I'd consider it as good as most of the other A-tier jabs but I'd also consider it a little better than most of the B-tier jabs. It killing by itself, even if it's not 100% reliable at all percents, is still something most jabs can't do. It's still good at lowish percents out of Dthrow.

Falcon's jab is def S-tier, that ****'s kinda ridiculous. Speaking of which:

Falcon's rapid jab finisher is also insanely disjointed.

why the **** does this character have all these disjoints he has no business having like what the **** nintendo

 

[Funbot28]

Ok just to let everyone know, discussion on Jabs will end tomorrow around this time in which I will post the final update, so try to wrap up any noms/arguments you have before the deadline.

Also don't worry, C.Falcon is moving to S

 

[>Metα<]

Fox's jab is probably B tier, maybe A tier at best. It is good for racking up damage at early percents when laser isn't safe. His jab 2 cancel is a good mix-up at mid percents as a good way to lead into a grab, utilt, or even another jab cancel. His jab cancel even true combos into usmash at high percents (130%~), as a safe kill confirm when you're struggling to secure the stock.

 

[Kofu]

Robin's jab is kinda borderline to me. I'm not sure I'd consider it as good as most of the other A-tier jabs but I'd also consider it a little better than most of the B-tier jabs. It killing by itself, even if it's not 100% reliable at all percents, is still something most jabs can't do. It's still good at lowish percents out of Dthrow.

Falcon's jab is def S-tier, that ****'s kinda ridiculous. Speaking of which:


why the **** does this character have all these disjoints he has no business having like what the **** nintendo

Thanks @Trifroze though I think this was nerfed in a recent patch or something.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Falcon has probly the best jab in the game tbh, ****in' ridiculous I swear to God. That being said, ZSS is def better in A than in B, it's an integral part of her neutral and the frame 1 start up means that it beats out any option that's either not safe or not true.

After this is Dash Attacks, am I correct? Then on to smashes?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ok yeah Falcons jab is great, but lets not go crazy. It is not the best jab in the game, that belongs to Little Mac by a good margin. The only thing Falcon's jab has over it is his multi jabs disjoint, BKB, and active frame on jab 1

 

[>Metα<]

I would say Mega Man's jab, but unless it is being used in tandem with nair and ftilt, it just isn't a powerful tool on its own.

 

[kendikong]

How good robin's jab can be depends on how often the opponent escapes it.

If the opponent is consistently DI'ing out of robin's jab, it's like a C tier move at best. But when they're not it's easily an S-tier jab.

The high damage it outputs and killing opponents at 100-120% with rage is nuts.

 

[Litany]

Ok yeah Falcons jab is great, but lets not go crazy. It is not the best jab in the game, that belongs to Little Mac by a good margin. The only thing Falcon's jab has over it is his multi jabs disjoint, BKB, and active frame on jab 1

Falcon's jab isn't frame 1 tho...

Also, Falcon's jab is better than Mac's for jab mixups as Mac cannot reliably grab a shielder without commiting a fair bit (and not getting much reward off of it either). Granted that isn't too much of a problem against anyone who isn't rather heavy or a fastfaller. I honestly think Falcon's jab is the same tier as Mac's.

 

[Kofu]

Falcon's jab isn't frame 1 tho...

Also, Falcon's jab is better than Mac's for jab mixups as Mac cannot reliably grab a shielder without commiting a fair bit (and not getting much reward off of it either). Granted that isn't too much of a problem against anyone who isn't rather heavy or a fastfaller. I honestly think Falcon's jab is the same tier as Mac's.

He means that Falcon's Jab 1 is active for three frames while Mac's is only active for 1. Active frames on moves like a jab are a big deal.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

How good robin's jab can be depends on how often the opponent escapes it.

If the opponent is consistently DI'ing out of robin's jab, it's like a C tier move at best. But when they're not it's easily an S-tier jab.

The high damage it outputs and killing opponents at 100-120% with rage is nuts.

When the opponent reaches 100% where you want to use it, they can just mash up and double jump. If you're not a fast faller or heavy weight, you can sometimes escape with no DI inputs at all. It's as high maintenance as Falco's when it comes to connecting because Jab 2 has too much upward knockback. Robin's jab is as high as it is because of Fire jab, which also kills better than any other jab but is horizontal and you'd have to be either a robot or jigglypuff to DI out of that with human DI/SDI. And I've wanted it to move down to B for a while because it's such a slow, punishable commitment to throw out. It does deal fantastic damage before those high percents though. Before the jab 1 and 2 base knockback increases (which was an intentional nerf), this was totally an A tier jab. Frame 4 kill move that took serious effort to escape, count me in. But not any more.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Falcon's jab isn't frame 1 tho...

Also, Falcon's jab is better than Mac's for jab mixups as Mac cannot reliably grab a shielder without commiting a fair bit (and not getting much reward off of it either). Granted that isn't too much of a problem against anyone who isn't rather heavy or a fastfaller. I honestly think Falcon's jab is the same tier as Mac's.

Little Mac's jab confirms into his up b at kill percents. It can also combo into his down tilt. While Little Mac doesn't have a good grab mixup with his jab, he can pressure an opponent's shield with dtilt or fsmash (He can also pressure a shield with his multijab, but the opponent can roll out of shield to avoid it).

I think that Mii Gunner's jab should move up to B tier due to its safety on shield when jab canceled and the amazing mixups Gunner has when using it. Gunner's jab 1 or jab 2 mixes up into: up tilt to cover jump, grab to beat shield, charge blast or down smash to cover rolls, dash attack to beat out an attack, and fsmash to catch a spot dodge or airdodge. It can also mix up into ftilt to tech chase into charge blast, dtilt to kill or deal good damage, or up smash to kill or juggle.

Cloud's jab should move to C tier since it is pretty laggy for a jab, and it is easy to fall out of it at high percents.

 

[Ffamran]

Ehhhhhhhh

It doesn't seem comparable to the other jabs in A tier. Its main selling point is that it's got some nice kill power and range (which is very nice, not trying to downplay that). It doesn't really combo into anything or provide mixups to my knowledge, isn't fast between hits, and isn't great on shield like a lot of A-tier jabs are. It also has occasional issues connecting. Nice active frames, however.

Adding onto this, its frame transition from jab 1 to jab 2 and jab 2 to jab 3 is 14 frames. Jab 2 to rapid jab is 8 frames. sixriver's page on Robin: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...YKjt0KJyn1EfccnT2YQqk/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0.

 

[Masonomace]

I think that Mii Gunner's jab should move up to B tier due to its safety on shield when jab canceled and the amazing mixups Gunner has when using it.

Wait, how can Mii Gunner jab cancel? The only character that can definitely cancel jab as far as I'm aware is Ryu, so I'm curious as to how Mii Gunner can.

Also, I can see Cloud jab being C tier but maybe not(?). It does have a knack for whiffing at higher percents, but like Shulk, couldn't a Cloud player just delay Jab2 a tad so that it can still connect at riskier percents?

 

[Djmarcus44]

Wait, how can Mii Gunner jab cancel? The only character that can definitely cancel jab as far as I'm aware is Ryu, so I'm curious as to how Mii Gunner can.

Also, I can see Cloud jab being C tier but maybe not(?). It does have a knack for whiffing at higher percents, but like Shulk, couldn't a Cloud player just delay Jab2 a tad so that it can still connect at riskier percents?

Gunner's jab has IASA frames after jab 1 and jab 2 that reduces endlag by several frames. It isn't fast enough to make jab 1 combo into itself (Yoshi is a character with a jab cancel that can true combo jab 1 into itself), but it should be fast enough to be visible.

To answer your second question, Cloud could delay the jabs to make the combo connect, but the opponent can jump out of the jab combo if he does this.

 

[DunnoBro]

IMO Falcon's jab is obviously the best.

Not simply for the range, speed, or ridiculous hitbox... But because it's the most potent and reliable jab at the ledge. Covering three options, not super consistently but that's more than most jabs can boast.

This means it just gets used more and consistently contributes to the advantage of a player more than other jabs.

Mac's jab is primarily just a very reliable stuffing option. Certainly the best in the game, and it does have confirms into uppercut and mix-ups with great shield pressure... And luigi's has similar.

But falcons does all that fine, PLUS covers ledge options. Which is huge.

Rosaluma jab does this with some set-up, but needing luma hurts.

 

[Nah]

Oh yeah, as bad as Falco's jab is, idk if I'd say that it belongs in its own tier by itself. It's not so significantly worse than like jab that it deserves that.

Adding onto this, its frame transition from jab 1 to jab 2 and jab 2 to jab 3 is 14 frames. Jab 2 to rapid jab is 8 frames. sixriver's page on Robin: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...YKjt0KJyn1EfccnT2YQqk/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0.

ew really it's 14 frames? I knew it was kinda a lot but I didn't think it'd be that much

I could live with it being moved to B it's not like B is terrible or anything lol

 

[TheGoodGuava]

IMO Falcon's jab is obviously the best.

Not simply for the range, speed, or ridiculous hitbox... But because it's the most potent and reliable jab at the ledge. Covering three options, not super consistently but that's more than most jabs can boast.

This means it just gets used more and consistently contributes to the advantage of a player more than other jabs.

Mac's jab is primarily just a very reliable stuffing option. Certainly the best in the game, and it does have confirms into uppercut and mix-ups with great shield pressure... And luigi's has similar.

But falcons does all that fine, PLUS covers ledge options. Which is huge.

Rosaluma jab does this with some set-up, but needing luma hurts.

Falcons jab isn't a true kill confirm, only a mixup which you can possibly get a kill off of with another mixup

What ledge options does Falcons jab consistently cover? Ledge attack? As long as you have a disjointed fair, certain up airs/dairs, reverse bair, good burst mobility, or a good projectile, you can beat it every time.

And needing Luma to completely **** over most of the recoveries in this game, kills, and does a ****load of damage, all while not needing to worry about getting hit or trading at all isn't enough to bring her lower than Falcons jab who's worse in every way but frame data, and only being 1 frame faster isn't enough to make it better

Little Mac's jab can do the same things Falcons jab does at the ledge, its just seen a lot less often considering the 2 best Mac players are a bit scared of the edge

 

[Ffamran]

Oh yeah, as bad as Falco's jab is, idk if I'd say that it belongs in its own tier by itself. It's not so significantly worse than like jab that it deserves that.

Olimar's jab kind of seems like a Peach and ROB jab. Just get off me and here's some damage. The major issue of it outside of range since, y'know, he's short, is that it's frame 4 which isn't really that bad except Smash inexplicably allows frame 1 and 2 jabs to exist. Looking at the data, jab 1 has high, 25 recovery, but jab 2 has low 13 recovery. Yeah, pretty much a get off me option. Not good, but I don't think it's bad. It's just there. I don't know much about Olimar, but I doubt his jab has connection issues, especially since it apparently has a low 6 frame transition. So, probably not an average jab, but not a terrible one either.

sixriver's page on Olimar: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...r7jx4EKHMRRZScJkPsPTI/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0.

Falco's jab is just terrible. I don't want to speak anymore more about it; I've made like 3 walls of it already.

ew really it's 14 frames? I knew it was kinda a lot but I didn't think it'd be that much

I could live with it being moved to B it's not like B is terrible or anything lol

Mentioned before, but Lucario's is 13. Lucina and Marth's is 17. It used to be 20 before 1.0.8. Yeah... Although, if tuned right, a really high frame gap / frame transition for jabs can work. It's more common in games like Street Fighter since knockback isn't as high, DI and SDI doesn't exist, etc. That being said, I think it could work in Smash too if they set the hit stun high enough. Weird thing is figuring out to make a move have really high hit stun and not have high knockback. I don't know if you can just have a move have say, 100 set knockback, and not have it send someone flying. Anyway, I digress. The fastest transition I remember seeing is Fox's, 5 frames and that's for both jab 1 to jab 2 and jab 2 to rapid jab.

For more data on frame transitions, check out sixriver: http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm. You're going to either need to know how to read Japanese -- kanji? -- or search for a character's Japanese name. Thinkaman made a 1.0.4? dump of Smash that also listed frame transitions, but as you can guess, it's outdated, however, I don't think a lot of characters had changes to their frame transition. Off the top of my head, I only know of Falco, Ike, Lucina, and Marth having changes. Thinkaman's dump: http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/.

I wished more frame data places showed frame transitions, since it's not really true that say, Ike's jab 2 is frame 3. There's a frame transition that adds to it making it like frame 13 -- Ike's frame transition for jab 1 to jab 2 is 10 frames. On the other hand, some character could have a frame 6 jab, but have a low / reasonable frame transition. One example is Captain Falcon since his jab 2 is frame 5, however, the frame transition is 7 frames. That's pretty much like Ike's and plenty of others. That being said, if tuned right, a move could have a high frame gap, but still work reliably.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Falcons jab isn't a true kill confirm, only a mixup which you can possibly get a kill off of with another mixup

What ledge options does Falcons jab consistently cover? Ledge attack? As long as you have a disjointed fair, certain up airs/dairs, reverse bair, good burst mobility, or a good projectile, you can beat it every time.

Little Mac's jab can do the same things Falcons jab does at the ledge, its just seen a lot less often considering the 2 best Mac players are a bit scared of the edge

Falcon's jab consistently covers nothing. As I presented on the previous page, it has a 3/7 success rate against neutral getup when they hold shield, same for ledge jump into a frame 2 air dodge. For a frame 3 air dodge, it's a 4/7 success rate. Ledge attack is also 4/7 with a added 1/7 of trading unfavorably since ledge attacks don't clank. At best, Falcon holding A at a ledge can be construed as a 50/50 against an opponent unaware of how they could challenge jabs being thrown above their head with an aerial.

And as bad as it sounds, Falcon has the highest success rate for covering ledge options with a repeated jab. Mac has a 1/6 chance compared to his 3/7 because while his repeating jab has one less frame of animation, it only has one active hit frame, not 3. Then 2/6 to Falcon's 4/7 scenarios. And I'll bet those 2 Mac players are aware and are scared to death of being blocked after neutral getup. Shield grab > Bthrow> Edgeguard can kill Mac at virtually any %. Ditto for Falcon, but you'd have to put more effort into the edgeguard.

I wished more frame data places showed frame transitions,

Spoiler: jab transition frames

The transition frame is the frame in which the next jab begins its animation, or (for repeating jabs) jab 1 begins a new frame 1 of its animation. As an example, Falcon's jab 1 is frame 3, and transition frame is 8. That means his jab 1 is 7 frames of animation, and the 8th is frame 1 of jab 2, or another jab 1 on repeat. So the startup of repeated falcon jabs is 3/10/17/24... and jab 1 and jab 2 together would be 3/12 assuming falcon does not delay jab 2.
Presented in order: Jab 1 to jab 2 | jab 2 to jab 3 And/Or Rapid

8|7
10|12
7|8
8
12
9
8|8
14
14
11
9|9|15
7|9
11|11
Not applicable
7|9
Not applicable
9|9
13
12|10
and 12|12
16
and18
11|12
15|15 (15 for fire jab 3, 9 exclusively for wind rapid)
11|18 (18 for jab 3, 7 exclusively for rapid jab)
6|11
9|9
4|7
Not applicable
20|24
7
10|10
10
14|14
9|12
11
8|9
8|10
8
8
13|13
12|13
10|10
12 (can fire new lemon every 12 frames up to max of 3)
9|8
8|8
10|10
13|14
11
8|8
Not applicable
7|8 (presumably the same transition frames for other moves jab can lead into)
9|11
11|8
16|18|17

 

[LancerStaff]

Debatable. It sort of compares with Cloud and Ike, but those are probably the worst two in B right now (or in my opinion Mario, but that requires a long explanation). And at least they come out a frame faster and can repeat jab 1 by holding the button. There's no mixup potential, just a frame 5 move with a worse FAF than even spot dodge (which makes you intangible on 2, definitely the preferred option for dealing with approaches)

No, there's mixup potential. Earth pulls stuff on players like Komo and Kame all the time. Fact is that the faf is only a frame later then Marth's, and Pit has powerful f6 and f10 options like he does as well. Earth usually just goes for jab 1 > jab 2 > jab 123/grab because it's not entirely understood yet and there doesn't appear to be any easy true combos from it.

Pit tends to get more use out of his jab because his walk is much better and how jab can slide from a walk. Also spot dodges aren't an issue because Pit can transition from jab 1 to 2 fast enough to catch them, and the data you presented seems to support this.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok finale update for Jabs:

Spoiler: Jabs

TL;DR:
A -> S
S -> A
A -> B
B -> A
C -> B
C -> B
C -> D

So now that that is done we will be moving on to our next topic of discussion in Dash Attacks. A preliminary list will be out in a day or so.

 

[Deleted member]

has the best dash attack in the game.

This **** basically leads into everything, and is relatively safe on block if spaced well. Fair, double uair, bair, nair, that fun stuff. It's just a super good burst movement option for Samus.

Can also say similar things for 's DA. The endlag buff for it made it soooo good. The weak hit has some nice conversions off of it and it's a quite good kill move if fresh (and other circumstances really). You do not want this move on a character with good mobility, though that can be said for many of Ganon's normals.

 

[Masonomace]

dash attack is very. .not good. Like most swordfighter dash attacks just generally being not great barring kill potential or anything like that. Now if I talk about Shield Buster or Smash art dash attack, then the ranking gets up'd for different reasons, but as it stands Shulk's dash attack reminds me of Ike, except Ike has a better dash attack.

I'd rank it Shulk's dash attack D tier, but since Ike's has more linger hitbox activity & stronger damage as well as a lower angle, Ike's could be C or B tier without fully analyzing it to the max.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's dash attack: http://gfycat.com/DownrightFineGemsbok

Early hit comes out on frame 10 and is active for 3 frames. Late hit comes on frame 13 and is active untill frame 20. Faf is frame 40.

Early hit deals pretty decent damage at 11%, has 100 bkb and 45 kbg. Angles are 50º and 60º. Late hit deals 8% and has lower kbg. Because of this dash attack is pretty good at setting up edgeguards and fairs but not actually good at killing unless zard has extreme amounts of rage and is near the ledge.

Zard's dash attack is great at covering landings and works ok at catching rolls and spotdodges. Move has low endlag but its terrible on shield unless you space it and hit it as late as possible, and even then is bad.

So yeah it's alright. low endlag, pretty active and high damage but bad kill power and unsafe on shield. Probably C. Could posibly see it on B depending on how the list ends up looking.

Notable dash attacks: Samus and Meta Knight.

 

[TDK]

dash attack is alright. It's fairly safe, but to my knowledge doesn't confirm into anything at any % outside of a fair at low % on fans fallers, and is mostly worse than running jab. I'd give it C.


is S. No questions.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Let's see, Ike's Dash Attack:

Massive range, later hitting hitbox (F15) but cannot rebound (which is can't clank IIRC) and lingers for a few frames. 14/11/9 damage depending on the hitbox/if late hit but if it hits both an enemy player and a projectile at the same time the enemy will be hit twice. So its occasionally 28% damage which is pretty awesome (if rare). 70/78 or 60/100 is pretty good knockback on a dash attack (His Ftilt is 30/97 while dealing 12.5%, Utilt is 50/90 while dealing 14%) and it will most certainly kill particularly near the edge with its low angle. Due to how its swung it can hit off stage a bit as well. Not a great recovery time.

MK and Samus for S.

 

[Lorde]

Bayonetta's dash attack is awful. Comes out on frame 15, has 21 frames of endlag, and it isn't going to kill at realistic percents. The only good things about it is that the hitbox stays out for 12 frames and she travels a pretty good distance when she uses it. Easily Bayonetta's worst move and it belongs in garbage tier.

Zelda's isn't the worst thing ever. The sweetspot comes out on frame 6 and lingers for 2 frames. The late hit stays out for another 3 frames after that. The sweetspot is pretty small, but it's not difficult to hit with since Zelda moves forward when she uses the move. Its biggest use is punishing anything outside the range of Zelda's tilts/grab, but even then, grab>dthrow combos are probably a better option. It's also important to note that it's a great move for anti-Luma purposes. Not the worst move, but not a particularly great one.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Dr.Mario's Dash Attack is what'd you expect of a Dash Attack.
An occasionally decent but very situational mixup that can throw off the opponent thanks to the fact that it's a dash attack, so the distance given by it may allow you to reach your opponent. Its a frame 6 move that's active for 19 frames and will start giving the late hitbox at Frame 10, which is 15 frames of an interesting hitbox that you should be looking for if you ever use Doc's Dash Attack because it can allow for some decent ( but again, nothing exceptional ) damage with one aerial.
Quite frankly, it's nothing exceptional, but it's not terrible.

 

[TDK]

So I was messing around on FG and I came to the realization that most of the dash attacks in this game are situational at best, with most of them being pretty bad or outclassed by other normals.

 

[Kofu]

dash attack is alright. It's fairly safe, but to my knowledge doesn't confirm into anything at any % outside of a fair at low % on fans fallers, and is mostly worse than running jab. I'd give it C.

I'd give it B just because of the massive disjoint it possesses. A C-tier dash attack would have some notable drawback that often hinders its usefulness IMO. B basically means that it's good at what it does but is fairly limited in flexibility.

Game & Watch's Dash Attack feels like a B-tier dash attack to me. Decent movement, solid damage (10% early, 6.5% late), lingers for 14 frames, puts people in the air, and can easily catch the two-frame ledgegrab on a lot of characters. However it doesn't really lead into anything and doesn't reasonably kill.

Mewtwo's is very similar to Game & Watch's, only with more disjoint but the inability to hit people on the ledge.

Villager's is either B or C. It's slow at frame 14 and can be negated with hitboxes as it's a projectile. However, it retains its hitbox if sent over a platform or ledge, similar to his FSmash, which can cover a lot of space and lead into strings or edgeguard situations. Definitely not a bread-and-butter move, though.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

's is a solid B, maybe even A.
It comes out fast, can potentially combo into F-air or U-air and it has little-to-no lag which can allow for a defend option, grab, smash attack, Bonus Fruit or another Dash Attack. (Basically anything)

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's dash attack is pretty average. It's just a filler move and a roll catch because of its active frames and the whole Falco keeps some momentum. It's not strong in knockback, doesn't do a lot of damage, it's not fast, there aren't any setup from it, and past low-percents, it loses its setup from F- and D-throw. It's just the run of the mill flying side kick type of dash attack similar to how his Ftilt is the average, standard check kick. The others of this move would be Fox, Lucario, Meta Knight, Mii Brawler, and Ryu's if you're looking for the classic and graceful one, but if not then there's also Bowser, Charizard, and Yoshi who have dropkicks. Anyway, I digress. Falco's dash attack is at best, C-tier. If it had its old frame 4 startup, I would even argue that it's a C-tier dash attack for the above reasons, mostly in that it doesn't do anything else. With its Brawl and Melee startup, it would just become fast. That's pretty much it.

Looking at it, considering that Mii Brawler's is pretty much Falco's, but is slightly faster, does more damage clean, 11% to Falco's 9%, has similar overall knockback, and has similar recovery, 22 for Falco and 21 for Mii Brawler, Falco's probably should be D-tier then since there's pretty much a better version of his. Factoring that Mii Brawler can be small and heavy, well, there's also a faster character with a similar dash attack who could get more mileage out it. This is kind of a similar thing with Lucario, but in Lucario's case, Aura-scaling, slightly higher recovery at 27 frames, and slightly lower damage? In this case, Mii Brawler for C-tier and Falco and Lucario probably for D-tier.

Glancing at Bowser, Charizard, and Yoshi's, theirs are all similar to Falco, Lucario, and Mii Brawler's too... They are all slower to them, though, being around frame 10, but have similar damage -- Bowser and Charizard to Mii Brawler and Yoshi to Falco and Lucario -- and knockback. For recovery, only Charizard has the Falco and Lucario low recovery -- 20 for Charizard. For Bowser and Yoshi; 36 for Bowser and 30 for Yoshi. Keep in mind that these two dinosaurs and one turtle dragon are much, much faster than Falco, Lucario, and possibly small Mii Brawler? So, higher startup and recovery makes sense, especially since Bowser's dash attack is arguably the strongest (in damage) of the 6. Also, unlike the others, Yoshi really flies during dash attack which can be a problem while also helpful since he can fly pass his opponent unlike the others who kind of stay in the same, slowish momentum.

So... C-tier for all of them with Falco and Lucario being D-tier? They're all arguably average which would be C-tier, but my argument for Falco and Lucario's being lower is that both of theirs kind of get (slightly) outclassed outside of having low recovery which is shared by Charizard and Mii Brawler who have more damaging dash attacks. In Falco's case, there's also the problem of the late hit's hitbox not covering his foot which has been like this since Melee -- Smash 4 changed the clean hit to cover it -- and that while Falco's dash speed is high, 1.9, his run speed isn't and neither is the speed he moves during dash attack which Lucario also shares, but instead of small hitbox issues, Lucario's is more of it doing less damage without Aura, and I don't know about this, but with Lucario leaping into the air, he might fly over people the others wouldn't since they stay relatively close to the ground, however, that could make his dash attack somewhat of an anti-air.

Skipping Fox for a bit, Ryu's dash attack is basically the more damaging of Falco and Lucario's -- it only does 1% more clean than Charizard and Mii Brawler's, but +2% on shields. Trades almost nothing; similar startup, knockback -- has still the high base, but better growth than Bowser, Charizard, Mii Brawler, and Yoshi's making it mirror Falco and Lucario's, but on a more damaging move --, and not to Charizard, Falco, and Mii Brawler, shares Lucario's similar recovery, 26 for Ryu. B-tier? C-tier at worst, though, like most dash attacks... I don't know Ryu, but assuming it doesn't do much, that's okay since it's just a simple and damaging punish.

For Fox, he is tied with Wario for having the fastest dash attacks in the game at frame 4. This does ignore windboxes which would put PAC-MAN and maybe others above them. Anyway, Fox's dash attack coupled with him having the highest dash speed, 2.4 and his high run speed, 2.184, makes it a really fast and simple punish -- dash Up Smash OOS is another, more devastating punish -- since Fox can quickly dash from his shield, close the distance, and land either dash attack or Up Smash depending on the move. Here's a thread on what Fox can punish OOS: http://smashboards.com/threads/foxs-out-of-shield-punish-data.429327/. Fox is one of the few characters who can rely on using dash attack out of shield for a punish. Correct me if I'm wrong, but late hit of dash attack can setup Up Smash. Considering his dash attack is essentially a grounded version of his Nair and vice versa, seems appropriate. The only drawbacks to his dash attack is its damage which makes sense since it's frame 4. If this stupid thing did say, 10%, then it would need something like the clean hit only lasts 1 frame or it has very high recovery. At worst, B-tier, but it could be A-tier because of how Fox's ground mobility interacts with it.