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Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

What will you like to discuss next?

  • Jabs

    Votes: 29 72.5%
  • Grabs

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Continue with Specials

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

Masonomace

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High-rated Jabs that are in the S-B tier spectrum imo include: :4falcon::4charizard::4duckhunt::4lucas::4lucina::4marth::4megaman::rosalina::4villager::4yoshi::4littlemac::4lucas::4robinm: & others I'm missing.

:4duckhunt: was especially made refreshed & aware to my mind when playing some matches with a friend of mine in the :4shulk: vs :4duckhunt: MU last night at my weekly. His Jab is mighty good I feel, god bless that duck.

Oh & while I'm at it, I feel that :4shulk: Jab is C tier. It's a whatever-decent Jab combo that deals 12.3% when sweetspotting the early hit of Jab3 (yes, Jab3 has a sweet & sourspot). Sourspot means the move will deal 11.2% & launch you at a higher angle which can actually kill you in Smash art if you're not careful or if you're DI'ing improperly. @←/feel. mentioned a good amount about it already, but I believe that because Jab1 & Jab2 are set knockback, Buster art doesn't help the Jab combo connect better but it's still dumb-good to deal ~18% fresh with a frame 5 move. Shulk's Jab2 just has to be inputted a tad later & it can hit floaties or the mid-lightweights. The lighter characters like :4jigglypuff::4kirby::4peach::rosalina: & I think :4gaw: however, are to be dealt with caution, so either delay Jab2 even more, or just find mixups like Jab1 > Air Slash more prominent in thought. Otherwise, Shulk's Jab combo is great against heavies or fastfallers if you're mashing the move.
 
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Airpoizon

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:4feroy: I honestly think has an A tier jab. Maybe even S tier. Comes out frame 5 and lasts until frame 7, and combos into f tilt, Side B, Up B, Nair, uair, and can kill confirm with fair or Bair if close to the ledge. If also has a huge hitbox, with it being in his body as well. It also has an FAF frame of 23, which is better by 3 frames then Marcinas first jab, and 6 on Marcinas second.
 

Bowserboy3

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I'm pretty salty that Rosalina's Dtilt didn't end up higher. Like, certainly not S tier, but it's by far her best tilt, and in my opinion, higher than B tier. Rosalina's comes out on frame 5, active for 4 frames, and Luma's Dtilt comes out on the last frame of Rosalina's, frame 8, and is active for 6 frames.

This combined essentially gives you a frame 5 poke (one of the fastest in the game) that is active for 9 frames, can 2 frame opponents with the correct distance and timing, has long range, and on top of all that, still has decent endlag that is tough to punish.

Even alone, Rosalina's Dtilt is still frame 5 and is active for 4 frames. Some characters would kill for an option like this.

---
It seems like we'll be doing Jabs next, so I'll provide some input on characters I use, along with where I think they should be:

:rosalina:- S: Combined, I will go out and say this is the best jab in the game, no contest. This move is what can make Rosalina so hard to approach. This move singlehandedly forces the opponents hand, and can outright stop some characters in their tracks. Not only does it move Luma forward, having great range and provides constant pressure, Luma's third standard hit launches opponents at an angle upwards that can combo into Uair, and can also KO off the top at around 150%. Rosalina's standard jab combo on the other hand is kinda lacklustre, but you wouldn't be using this alone when you have Dtilt anyway. Luma's Rapid Jab can be spaced away from Rosalina (such as right next to the ledge, preventing ledge grabs), and Rosalina's Rapid Jab deals respectable damage and can KO off the side near the ledge. You can space their rapid jabs at a certain point near the ledge which covers all ledge getup options, and the only real way around it is a drop down, jump, air dodge. Not only that, against a select few fast fallers, at 0%, you can Uthrow into their combined Rapid Jab combo for an easy 30-35%. Amongst all this, you can even desync Luma using their Rapid Jab, something we've all become familiar with.

It's no stretch to say this is an S tier jab, and I think it's certainly a contender for the best jab in the game. S tier for sure.

:4marth:- A (potentially S): The thing with this Jab 1 is that it can outright stop approaches dead. As I've seen others put it, it's almost essentially Diddy's Dtilt, with similar start up and cooldown, sets up into other moves, but is also disjointed and acts as an anti-air. The reason why I refrain from saying the move is S tier is because there is nothing completely true out of the move until the opponent has a fair amount of damage on them, when there are Jabs that are much easier to use, and have slightly more reliable reward (such as Rosalina). You also don't have much reason to use Jab 2, making that kind of redundant. Still a fantastic move, one of the best Jabs in the game, and I don't have any problem seeing it in S, but any lower than A, and you need your head looking at.

:4bayonetta:- Whichever tier is smack bang in the middle: This is what I call an average jab. It's start up is poor for a jab, but it links incredibly well, with the multi-hit portion being essentially unescapable. It also has relatively good range, with each hit possessing good reach, and each hit moving Bayonetta forward. Also the most damaging jab in the game (not counting Rosalina and Luma's, who require the opponent to be virtually between. Bayonetta's always deals this much), dealing around 19% IIRC. It does have the problem of "why use this if you can do a short combo?", but it doesn't change the fact that if you do land it, it is still relatively rewarding compared to other jabs. If the opponent isn't quick enough (there is only a small window to escape if you don't do the rapid jab), you can also hit them with a Dtilt or Utilt after the hit 3 before the rapid jab portion. It's a nice mix up. Overall, a decent option; there are clearly worse jabs.

:4zss:- A or S: Frame 1 jab that links, need I say much else? Essentially a get out of jail free card. Covers your own landings, good for quick follow ups if you don't have enough time to combo into anything else, can Jab 1 into Boost Kick etc. It does only deal 6% however, which is why I say potentially A tier, but considering all of it's strengths and utility, I think S tier is also an option.

:4mario:- Whichever tier is smack bang in the middle: Mr average strikes again. Fast start up (frame 2), and deals decent damage (8%). Not much reason to use it over Dtilt or Utilt other than the fact it starts up quicker, but it's by no means bad and gets the job done. :4sonic: is also extremely similar, so I also vote for him to be smack in the middle.

:4samus:- NOT the last tier, but the tier above: Anyone who passes this off as the worst jab in the game is clearly very misinformed. Samus's Jab does not link unless the opponent is between around 50 - 70%; anywhere before and the hitstun is too little and the opponent can shield before the 2nd hit (though Samus can still react, which I will mention below), and anywhere above and the first hit sends the opponent too far for the 2nd to hit. However, these traits don't necessarily make the move bad. The Jab 1 itself is one of Samus's most reliable, effective, and safest "get off me" options. It can cause trips at high percents, which can lead into Grab, or KO combo into Charge Shot. It can easily pressure shields too when jab cancelled.

Sure, the jab combo itself is trash, but the Jab 1 possesses lots of utility, and for that reason, I think it's unfair to call this the worst jab in the game.

Info on the jab (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A-VChjUNcg&t=9m59s).

:4robinm:- A: This jab is another rather versatile one, and one of Robin's most important tools. Two variants, both with KO power (each of which KO's in a different direction), and can be used to either rack up damage, or create space close range, as they both knock the opponent quite far away. Sure, if you run out of a specific tome, you are locked out of a specific variant which is kind of what keeps it from being S tier. Strong, damaging, versatile. A great move overall.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Ike: I was going to say that starting on frame 4 wasn't great, but people are trying to say that frame 5 or even frame 6 start up times aren't bad so apparently I should be saying frame 4 is good (seriously people: if it doesn't start at frame 3 or sooner, its on the slow side for start up and that's a bad thing regardless of the range it might have. Your jab isn't amazing at everything). 11% is down from the amazing 16% it used to do in Brawl where it was the best jab in the game (yes it was Ike's and not Falco's). While Ike's jab is no longer the combo king it was in Brawl, or the damage king, it has various mix ups and options instead.

Jab 2 has a lot more range than people tend to realize. About as much horizontal range as his Jab 3 and it comes out very quickly. Jab 1 -> Jab 2 can be stalled for a noticeable amount of time in order to throw off the opponent. Like wise Jab 2 -> Jab 3 can be stalled for a noticeable amount of time. Ike can adjust the timing of his entire Jab combo, which is good for both mixups and figuring out how the opponent will react.

Ike also still has his combat walk from Brawl with his Jab: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O40pXvytnB4 Basically is another mix up option out of Jab 2 that lets you advance forwards a small amount. I thiiiiink it can still carry a few characters across the stage if you fall into Jab 2 from the air at just the wrong spot, don't really remember off hand though and if it does still work its fairly rare.

Jab 3 has more than enough knockback to get the opponent out of Ike's face, and hits above him as well. So if the opponent tries to jump after a delayed Jab 2, Jab 3 can still catch them.

With everyone well... fanboying hard over their character's jabs I have no clue where Ike's falls into.
 

arbustopachon

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Zard's jab1: http://gfycat.com/ThisCavernousBuzzard
Jab2:http://gfycat.com/PleasingEcstaticAnemone
Jab3:http://gfycat.com/FrigidSkinnyBear

Zard's jab is great. The move hits on frame 4 (which as said earlier isn't really the fastest thing ever but it works out), has very good range (Jab3 in particular is disjointed and rivals zard's f-tilt in range), deals good damage (the whole jab combo deals 12%) and Jab3 kills surprisingly early and scales very well with rage.

Jab1 and specially jab2 are very viable mixup tools. Jab2 > grab works pretty well at mid to high percents (and zard gets some nice stuff out of grab) while jab2 > u-smash is a pretty good killing option at high percents provided they dont react to it. He also has the infamous jab2> fly, which kills early and looks sick but is very inconsistent and gets you killed when it misses.

Zard can combo into jab out of a nair, its also possible depending on the opponents Di to combo jab3> nair or fair at low percents. You can sometimes get away with silly strings like nair>jab> jab2> grab> d-throw> nair> jab >jab2> jab3 > fair.

Now on the bad side. they are kinda bad on block and as i said earlier frame 4 isn't the fastest. Their endlag is also rather average.

I guess probably A or B for zard's.
 
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Bigbomb2

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Zelda and Link.
Some epic bias there bro.

Concerning jabs:

:4link:- Eh start up(frame 7), good range, great neutral reset tool. Can be used for jab2 -> mixups but can be jumped out of if reacted to. Probably a C tier.
:4bowser:- Frame 7 start up, but good range, intangible, and jab1 can be followed up with a lot. Excellent tool and one of Bowser's best neutral tools. Definite B
:4myfriends:- Frame 4 start up, good range, and great for neutral reset. If it allowed for canceling like in brawl into whatever it'd be amazing. B tier jab
 

Wintermelon43

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Some epic bias there bro.

Concerning jabs:

:4link:- Eh start up(frame 7), good range, great neutral reset tool. Can be used for jab2 -> mixups but can be jumped out of if reacted to. Probably a C tier.
:4bowser:- Frame 7 start up, but good range, intangible, and jab1 can be followed up with a lot. Excellent tool and one of Bowser's best neutral tools. Definite B
:4myfriends:- Frame 4 start up, good range, and great for neutral reset. If it allowed for canceling like in brawl into whatever it'd be amazing. B tier jab
Yea, go call me biased and then not give me any reason why. Defitenly changed my opinion.
 

Djmarcus44

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Gunner's jab is probably a B tier or C tier jab. Jab 1 or jab 2 can be jab canceled into any tilt, smash attack, charge blast, grab, or dash attack. None of these are true combos, but Gunner can cover most defensive options with these mixups. While it isn't very fast at frame 5, it is pretty safe on shield when jab canceled (Gunner players can also mix up the number of jabs they use on shield since all of the jab hits have similar frame data on shield), and the arching motion of the jab can stop some shorthop aerials.
 

Bigbomb2

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I call you bias because every other post you have rips on Link and it never contributes. It's very obvious. Like I've seen you called out on it before.

Back on track I forgot :4charizard:. He's got a wicked good jab. Frame 4, pops you high in the air, and does 12 damage? Sign me up
 

~ Gheb ~

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Lucario's jab is so bad it may as well not exist at all. If there's an opening for a jab then grab is virtually always the better option.

:059:
 

adom4

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Ganon's jab is pretty average, it has amazing range for a jab & it's pretty safe on shield when spaced, 11/8% is not bad for a single hit jab & the endlag is pretty decent.
On the other hand frame 7 startup is rather slow & it doesn't lead to anything, it just knocks them away.
I think it should be in C tier, it's way better than pre 1.1.5 jab that's for sure, that move was a travesty.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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:4feroy: I honestly think has an A tier jab. Maybe even S tier. Comes out frame 5 and lasts until frame 7, and combos into f tilt, Side B, Up B, Nair, uair, and can kill confirm with fair or Bair if close to the ledge. If also has a huge hitbox, with it being in his body as well. It also has an FAF frame of 23, which is better by 3 frames then Marcinas first jab, and 6 on Marcinas second.
Comparing it to Marcinas jab isnt a good idea, their jabs aren't very good outside of Marth's tipper jab 1 > tipper fair kill confirm on fast fallers

There's nothing really special about Roy's jab that puts it anywhere near the same level as the S tier jabs (Fox, Mac, Rosa, etc). Its just an average frame 4 get off me tool and that's ok
 
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Dee-SmashinBoss

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Zeldas jab is actually pretty good.
It's the slowest sure, but the tiny endlag and nice disjoint is a positive. It also does a nice 11% iirc. It comboes into her DA or grab and can be comboed into from Utilt,dtilt and falling Nair I believe.

I think it's very specific and may not work on some characters, but I almost recall a moment of hearing that it's possible jab can lead into Fair?

Either way, it's real weakness is the startup, but that ain't even a big problem. The move is actually surprisingly difficult to punish on shield.
I think it's a solid B, and depending on where other jabs are placed, it could clutch being in A.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Zelda's is nowhere close to A. Or B. It would be lucky to be in C.

You can have all of the quick cool down in the world: 11 frame start up is balls. That isn't an "annoying slow but it has combos out of it" move. That's straight up "slower than some tilts" slow. For a jab. Being able to combo into it doesn't redeem it much. It just keeps it out of the complete trash bin.

Roy's jab ain't even thinking about S either. Its... average. Sub-par start up time, has some range (not huge, but decent) and some iffy combos to it. Meh damage.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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The startup even for a jab isnt as detrimental as your making it out go be, it still has plenty of pros that make it work out well and make up for that.
Lorde Lorde how would you rank hers?
 

TheGoodGuava

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The start up for a jab is actually a huge thing. Jabs are for boxing people out, the faster it is the better. If you can get combos off of it or put people into bad positions at the same time then you have a godly jab, that's all there is to it. Zeldas jab is **** tier, along with DDD's

Now Charizards jab... Now that's a good jab
 
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BSP

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Being F2 or faster alone should put a jab towards the higher end of this list. F4 and slower starts approaching slow status.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Luigi. His is F2 with good range and stun. I think it's the best of the F2 jabs, and maybe in the same tier in ZSS' even though it's faster (that's all its got over Luigi's)

Falcon's is good too. F3 is good, but the range on his jab is nuts. Him holding A at the ledge is a wall to some characters lol.

The list Masonomace Masonomace began is a good start for the upper tier of jabs, but definitely throw Luigi in there.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I shouldn't miss an opportunity to gush about Bowser's jab. I could write a book about it, it's his best move in the neutral. It reaches farther than the entire movesets of many opponents and has low endlag for followups. With Bowser's top tier throw game, Jab to dash grab is a prominent killer. Resulting in 20-35% damage total or a kill as early as 70%. There's also Jab to Side B which is just as guaranteed to land. The victim's ability to escape jab is MU dependent, as well as whether you were hit with the furthest hitbox. Only then can some characters double jump to escape followups. Misjuding whether you're airborne or grounded can be fatal as you land with Nair or air dodge landing lag. Jab can lead to Dtilt and Bowser Bomb too, but those can be shielded. Dash grab and Side B get around that issue. If there's any slow jab that gets a top spot, I nominate this one far above the others.
 

Lorde

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Eh, Zelda's jab is an okay move

Frame 11 is really awful, especially for a jab. Jabs are supposed to be quick moves that you can throw out when an opponent gets uncomfortably close. Zelda's fails at that because it's way too slow. That's why her dtilt is her "true jab."

It does have a few redeeming qualities. Having only 9 frames of endlag is amazing. It's great for stuffing approaches and 11% is a decent chunk of damage. At low percents, jab>grab>stuff (usually dthrow>nair or dthrow>uair) are realistic options. Jab>fair does work, but iirc it's dependent on DI and only works at very specific percentages, meaning it's not very reliable.

The start-up sucks, but it's far from worthless; it's actually one of Zelda's best moves. imo it's around C-ish tier, but I'm sure it'll end up in bottom tier because start-up is the only thing that matters to anyone in here.

Bayo's jab is frame 9, and aside from the huge damage, it's really unimpressive. Probably also C tier
 

Nidtendofreak

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The startup even for a jab isnt as detrimental as your making it out go be, it still has plenty of pros that make it work out well and make up for that.
Lorde Lorde how would you rank hers?
For a slow start up Jab to be good you well... basically need to have Bowsers. Except Zelda's is less dangerous and starts up 4 frames slower than his: over 50% slower.

There's a difference between "usable" and "good". Zelda's jab is... usable. But its not good by any stretch of the word. It belongs in C tier. Bayonetta's jab likewise is nooooot good at all. C at max.
 
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ARGHETH

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Yea, go call me biased and then not give me any reason why. Defitenly changed my opinion.
You gave literally no reason why those two are "two of the worst Dtilts in the game", while Zelda's Dtilt (a F5-11 move with a FAF of 25), at least, has been talked about already
 

LRodC

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I also agree with Zelda's jab being C tier. It has bad startup, but it makes up for it in a lot of other ways, like others said.
 

~ Gheb ~

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DDD's jab isn't that bad. Sure, it has more startup lag than most other jabs but it has good range for its startup time, a huge hitbox, is not actually easy to punish if you're smart about canceling it after jab 1 on block, can kill and does good damage - redeeming traits for a move with a bit of startup lag that make it a very solid grounded option.

His jab does not fill the many gaps that DDD's design has. But is his jab to blame for that or is it the fact that DDD's design has a lot of holes? The jab itself isn't all that bad.

:059:
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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I'm still not sure why people say Bayos jab is bad or...not great.
Granted I know little of the character, I know it does quite good damage, but it's a little slower then other jabs.....so what's wrong with it exactly?

I will also admit, the startup for Zelda's jab does suck obviously, but I'm saying that's mostly made up for the pros it has. It's placement is dependent on where other jabs are.(If most normal/ok jabs are in C then yea hers is too, but I considered B to be the actual mid of the list for most jabs instead.

Still wonder who's jab would truly be S, because aren't most jabs like......just ok moves characters have? Who's stands out the best to really be noteworthy?
 

Lorde

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Bayo's jab is slow, doesn't combo into anything, and is outclassed by like all of her other tilts. Its only use is for the ~20% it does, but Bayo's combos are so damaging that jab doesn't need to be used to tack percent onto the enemy.

It's not a terrible move, but it's completely outclassed.
 

LRodC

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Something to note about Bayonetta's jab: It has bullet arts which are part of the move. It's something to consider.
 

TheHypnotoad

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Robin's jab is amazing. It comes out frame 4 and has decent range. Fire jab knocks the opponent decently far away at the Sakurai angle, which is great for relieving pressure or getting the opponent off stage. It can kill off the side at around 120% near the ledge. It also has a FAF of 36, which is the same as or close to a large number of other characters. Wind jab, although extremely unreliable against characters not named Fox, is really powerful and can kill off the top at around 110%. It has a FAF of 41, which isn't that bad either. I say A tier at the lowest, maybe S tier.
 
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jet56

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I'm still not sure why people say Bayos jab is bad or...not great.
Granted I know little of the character, I know it does quite good damage, but it's a little slower then other jabs.....so what's wrong with it exactly?

I will also admit, the startup for Zelda's jab does suck obviously, but I'm saying that's mostly made up for the pros it has. It's placement is dependent on where other jabs are.(If most normal/ok jabs are in C then yea hers is too, but I considered B to be the actual mid of the list for most jabs instead.

Still wonder who's jab would truly be S, because aren't most jabs like......just ok moves characters have? Who's stands out the best to really be noteworthy?
Captain falcon, rosalina, little mac are noteworhy S tier jabs. Personally I would gush more about how Macs jab is the best one in the game, but ill hold my tongue.
 

ARGHETH

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Robin's jab is amazing. It comes out frame 4 and has decent range. Fire jab knocks the opponent decently far away at the Sakurai angle, which is great for relieving pressure or getting the opponent off stage. It can kill off the side at around 120% near the ledge. It also has a FAF of 36, which is the same as or close to a large number of other characters. Wind jab, although extremely unreliable against characters not named Fox, is really powerful and can kill off the top at around 110%. It has a FAF of 41, which isn't that bad either. I say A tier at the lowest, maybe S tier.
Robin's Jab is definitely not S tier lol. B tier at lowest, A tier at highest.
 

arbustopachon

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I think frame 4+ jabs shouldn't be on S tier. Also robins jab1 and 2 endlag are kinda on the slow side for frame 4 jabs. Jab1 has 24 frames of endlag and jab2 has 26. Compare with Zard's jab1 which has the same startup and 18 frames of endlag and jab2 which has one frame more of startup but has 20 frames of endlag, or with ikes which have 18 and 24.
It is a very good jab but not really S rank imo.
 

Kofu

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Game & Watch's Jab is rather good, though it has its issues. It's frame 4, so it's not as fast as other jabs (his fastest move nonetheless), but it's large and disjointed (even hits behind him a little). Jab 1 only lasts 15 frames which makes it great as a bait or a mixup option. Unfortunately characters can sometimes escape between Jab 1 and his Rapid Jab. It's also a little low on damage, but it makes for a good "get-off-me" option. I'd say B or C tier.

Villager's Jab is interesting. It cycles between two similar, but not identical, hits. It hits on frame 3 and has decent reach, with both hits doing 3%. At low percents you can usually get four total hits off for some nice early damage. Later on, Jab 2's greater knockback growth puts opponents in the air above and in front of Villager, which can lead to strings and combos. Around 100% or so, it can combo into Timber's axe for a lethal blow. A tier seems to fit well.

Mewtwo's Jab is interesting. It's fairly slow for a jab at frame 6 (tied with DTilt for his fastest grounded option) and isn't really exceptional in reach. However, Jab 1 does a respectable 4%, and the whole move is unable to clank, which can let it beat out other hitboxes. The decent damage lets it set up for grabs, which, given Mewtwo's powerful UThrow, is a wonderful thing. The rapid jab portion of the move has significant disjoint. By itself the move isn't bad, but it tends to be outclassed by DTilt, really only having its recoil-less properties and the ability to guarantee a grab at high percents to fall back on. B or, possibly, A tier.
 

Emblem Lord

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Ryu probably B tier.

Explanation later.
 
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Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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But for real, who has the worst Jab? Samus and Lucario would be near the bottom for sure, Falco would be down there if it didn't have good FAF.
Samus's jab is actually pretty good for what it does. As a jab in terms of it should combo into itself or whatever, it's bad. Samus's jab has more in common with Meta Knight and Pikachu's being the "weird" jabs; in Meta Knight's case, it's the only one that starts out as a rapid jab and in Pikachu's case, it's the only one that pretty much needs to be repeated and acts more like Ness and Ryu's (light) Dtilt. For Samus, her jab is kind of like a check kick Ftilt or a poke like Falco or Fox's Ftilt. The funny thing is that Samus's jab actually functions more like real life jabs, a fast punch to gauge distance and react based on what happens such as if it connect, then continue with the a regular combination or followup with something else for a mixup; it if it doesn't connect, then it's kind of a bait and range gauge; and if it connects, but hits someone blocking, then continue in hopes your opponent lets down their guard, try for a mixup, or back off. All of this is helped with her jab 1's low startup of 3 and low 14 recovery frames -- I think that's the lowest recovery on a jab in the game including Fox's pre-patch jab. It's "unconventional" compared to other jabs and unfortunately, people just view it as bad because of that. What doesn't help is that for whatever reason despite none of its frame data changing from Brawl and maybe even since Melee and 64, jab 1 didn't push people enough for Samus to have safe range and time to pick an option. This, combined with the fact that as an "unconventional" jab not meant to link into its second hit made it just terrible. Now? Whatever they did, it's fine. For what it is, I honestly believe Samus's jab is no worst than C-tier based solely on its merits. Now, based on everyone's jabs that are capable of linking, then a lot of people would see it as being F-tier.

Won't comment on Lucario since I don't know much about him, but I will say one thing: Lucario is among 3 characters in this game with jabs that start off high with the others being Falco and Ryu through his heavy jab. The only problem is that Lucario's starts very close to him, so technically, there are only 2 characters who have high jabs that reliably anti-air. There are other characters with reliably anti-air jabs, but they start differently, well, low in the case of Lucina, Marth, and sort of Roy. None of this factors in the rest of the jab or Ike would be in since his jab 3 definitely swings high and ends low. Everyone else can anti-air with their jabs, but they won't have the benefit of a high or arcing jab like Falco, Lucina, Marth, Roy, and Ryu.

Falco... He has a terrible jab. The only good qualities it has are its low startup of 2 and that both jab 1 and jab 2 cover entirely in front of him since jab 1 is an overcut while jab 2 is an undercut allowing Falco to anti-air with his jab 1 as said before. It can also be ledge canceled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1gk1M4ubnk, which is great since Falco can weirdly confirm a Nair from it, but it's so situational and definitely not enough to make up for all its problems. Everything about his jab after that is just terrible. For whatever reason, Falco's jab has unusually high recovery shared with Peach who also has a frame 2 jab. Most normals have 20 to 30 recovery frames, lower for moves like tilts, higher for moves like Smashes, and in between for moves like aerials and dash attacks. Specials being special, they're different. For jabs, most of them have recovery below 20 like between 14 and 17. Falco's jab 1 has 19 recovery frames, jab 2 has 21 recovery frames, and rapid jab finisher has 34 recovery frames. For Peach, we're talking about 25 for jab 1 and 27 for jab 2. Here's the thing, though, Peach's jab 2 / jab finisher will always reliably connect, so Peach not having the option to go for jab mixups isn't really a bad thing then she can frame 2, slap your filthy ass away from her princess self. Falco doesn't have that luxury.

In Brawl, Falco was known for his jab mixups as jab had 11 recovery frames and jab 2 had 13 recovery frames. Both also had set knockback, 5 for jab 1, so not really that useful even with it doing 4%, and 20 for jab 2. Here's the thing, it wasn't that abusive compared to Smash 4 Fox's pre-patch jab or even Link's pseudo-jab infinite. Why? I don't really know, but I can only guess that because of Falco's higher hit angles compared to Fox's. Anyway, despite it having really low recovery, Falco couldn't really jab lock like Fox, but it did give him a really good jab mixup. Speaking of which, the times where Falco, Brawl or Smash 4, does jab 1, jab 2, jab 1, and repeats and you see a someone, a random player, getting caught in it, then they're not DI'ing at all. Just push out, geez. Then again, there are people (on For Glory) who will DI in during a rapid jab for whatever reason. Genius! Let's take +30% from a jab because you somehow think DI'ing into it would do... what the hell do you think would happen? Why!?

In Smash 4, jab 1's damage was dropped to 3%, jab 1 and jab 2 have regular, but low knockback, and their recovery wasn't just upped to make it so Falco couldn't abuse it, but increased to the point where jab mixups are risky. In a way, it got the Blaster treatment of making it so Falco couldn't just abuse it, but using it in the first place is risky even at max range. So, if you can't jab mixup, then go for a full jab, right? Yeah... about that. Falco's rapid jab, for whatever reason is weird compared to other jabs in how it transitions. For almost all characters, you can hold down attack and they will go through their entire jab combo without much of a problem. This is helpful for characters with both a rapid jab and a jab 3 which in their case, will do a jab 3 if attack is held down except for Little Mac who does rapid jab -- he's the only character who has a "reversed" input outcome. The other option, of course, is to just tap and mash it and that's just fine too. For Falco, he's the only character who has a different transition depending on if you hold or mash attack. If you hold attack, there's a delay between jab 2 and rapid jab that characters with frame 3 and maybe frame 6 moves, especially if they have armor or are invincible, can hit him during the transition. Otherwise, most characters can jump out from floaties like Kirby to fast fallers like Little Mac. If you mash, then there's less delay between jab 2 and rapid jab. It might be a minor thing, but it can be weird for players who switch around e.g. just casual play and friendlies where you didn't know and you keep getting hit out of jab for some reason as Falco.

Now, rapid jab itself and rapid jab finisher have issues with connecting. Rapid jab, I don't know what the problem is, but you can easily jump out of it by moving out. It doesn't help that it actively pushes people out unlike some rapid jabs that seem to pull you in or push you up or around. Falco's rapid jab just pushes people out to the point where even the 4 minimum hits can push you out far enough that you have time to avoid its finisher. Often, Falco will be stuck in rapid jab with his opponent out because rapid jab pushed them out too far. At that point, it's a guessing game where Falco has to decide between holding rapid jab hoping his opponent runs into him or he lets go and the finisher can catch his opponent which if he misses, 34 recovery frames to deal with. For shorter characters, they can even land during the transition and end up below the hitbox of rapid jab. As those characters have smaller hurtboxes in the first place, mashing jab to get the quickest transition isn't ideal as Falco would be connecting rapid jab while they're very high up and able to just jump up and away.

The only thing I know between Brawl and Smash 4 is that rapid jab's damage was decreased from 1% to 0.4% and that between Brawl and launch Smash 4, its transition frame was upped from 7 frames to 9 frames. 1.0.8 dropped it down to 8 frames which doesn't really do much? Just 1 frame and if that's the frame where you mash jab, it probably didn't do anything to make it connect better in that case. Everything else about it is unknown like most rapid jabs. Brawl's, I was able to find by digging through Brawl Falco's file and what I got was that it did 1% per hit, it has hit angles of 30, 50, and 80 degrees, and its knockback is 0 base, 3 set, and 100 growth. In hit frames dug through Brawl Falco's frame data thread and a Brawl Japanese wiki, startup of 2, 1 active frame, and 4 frame gaps between each hit. Smash 4, I was able to at least get its hit frames and it's the same except for the frame gap which is 5. A drop in 0.4% shouldn't be that much loss in hit stun if it has the same knockback... I bet its hit angles where changed, but I don't know because nobody bothers to find rapid jab data.

For rapid jab finisher. The move itself is fine with the only problem being outside of its high recovery, is that out of the rapid jab finishers, it has one of the lowest overall knockback and I don't know why. Other rapid jab finishers have good base and ~130 growth while doing anywhere from 2% to 5%, but Falco's only does 3%, 60 base, and 100 growth which for a low damage finisher and basically a "multi-hit finisher", should have growth in the 130's and not the 100's unless there's a reason like Captain Falcon's rapid jab finisher has insanely high base, 110, but lower growth, 70. That being said, it's not limited to just Falco as Mewtwo's rapid jab finisher has low overall knockback too as Mewtwo's rapid jab finisher does 2%, 82 base, and 100 growth, but Mewtwo's jab in general is miles better than Falco's. Anyway, what Falco's rapid jab finisher is attached to ruins anything good about it. Because of rapid jab's issues, rapid jab finisher doesn't link well and there's nothing you can do about it like with his jab 2 to rapid jab where you can vary or the timing.

Between the high recovery of jab 1 and jab 2 and the delay of jab 2 to rapid jab and rapid jab to rapid jab finisher, characters like Jigglypuff, Little Mac, Luigi, Ryu, Roy, Yoshi, and characters with fast, strong, and protected -- armor or invinciblity -- moves they can outright KO Falco because he jabbed them effectively making jab a hit confirm for them. For other characters like Lucina, Mario, and Marth, he's going to take damage and usually more in a terrible trade. At lower percents, some characters can even jab back at or grab Falco if he hesitates during jab 1 and jab 2. Otherwise, like I said, pretty much anyone can just jump out.

So, Falco's jab is a Morton's Fork where whatever choice you choose, it's just as bad if not worse. Each part can be considered a series of unfortunate events.
1. Falco hits with jab 1: if he stops, he has too high of a recovery on it for a mixup to be safe, but if he continues he has to commit to jab 2.
2. Falco connects with jab 2: if he stops, even higher recovery than jab 1, but lower damage and lower knockback making it even less safe for a mixup. If he doesn't stop, then he has to commit to rapid jab which in this case, if he hesitated or paused, he could have already screwed himself before jab 2 ends or rapid jab has to start.
3. Falco hits with rapid jab: hope that his opponent didn't jump out already or the damn thing didn't pushed them out already. If they did, then it's hoping his opponent is in front of him and the finisher can catch them... If they're behind him or have a weapon, welp... RIP.

It's F-tier to the point where I would argue that if Lucario's jab, as bad as it may be, can reliably connect, then Lucario's jab should be in D-tier and Falco's should be in F-tier by itself.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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Ryu probably B tier.

Explanation later.
I guess i can see why, it cant be held out without mashing which makes it inconsistent as a wall like other frame 1/2/3 frame jabs, its low damage compared to options ryu has, and it isn't all that safe. It is able to combo into his specials though which is good. Heavy jab... I really only use it out of perfect pivots at the ledge for kills at higher percents, people don't expect it and don't know how to punish it most of the time so it ends up being pretty safe so I guess I can understand that too
 

Jjab430

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:4falcon:'s jab is definitely S tier. I'd even go as far as to say that it's better than :4littlemac:'s and the best traditional jab in the game.

- It's frame 3 which is slower than Mac's but still fast enough to beat out most options—hence why people complain about frame 3 aerials.

- Rapid jab connects reliably, does a lot of damage and is hard even for floaties to SDI out of.

- Gentleman is reliable at all percents and has high base knockback so it's great for gaining stage control. Mac's three hit does 2% more damage but it isn't as reliable and has low bkb

- Low cool down on all three hits, especially jab 2, so it's safer to throw out and better for grab mixups than Mac's.

What really sets it apart though are the three active frames on Jab 1. Jab 1 loop is tied with Mac's for the fastest refresh rate at 1 frame. Only Falcon's has 3 active frames compared to Mac's 1, making it much better for stuffing out spot dodges, approaches (spin dash comes to mind), and especially ledge get up options (keep in mind that it can also kill at 130-150% at the ledge depending on rage). Imagine Fox's already godly ledge trapping combined with Falcon's jab—scary stuff.

Oh and for some reason it hits behind his back. Fox's jab is an even bigger offender. Yay hitbox shenanigans

All Mac's jab really has on Falcon's is its faster startup, the 2% extra on gentleman, and the trample effect, so it will continue the animation after clanking with other hitboxes.

Other S Tier candidates: :rosalina::4fox::4littlemac::4villager::4luigi:

:4zss::4marth::4lucina::4myfriends::4bowser::4sheik::4yoshi::4mario::4drmario: all also have great jabs.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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:4falcon:'s jab is definitely S tier. I'd even go as far as to say that it's better than :4littlemac:'s and the best traditional jab in the game.

- It's frame 3 which is slower than Mac's but still fast enough to beat out most options—hence why people complain about frame 3 aerials.

- Rapid jab connects reliably, does a lot of damage and is hard even for floaties to SDI out of.

- Gentleman is reliable at all percents and has high base knockback so it's great for gaining stage control. Mac's three hit does 2% more damage but it isn't as reliable and has low bkb

- Low cool down on all three hits, especially jab 2, so it's safer to throw out and better for grab mixups than Mac's.

What really sets it apart though are the three active frames on Jab 1. Jab 1 loop is tied with Mac's for the fastest refresh rate at 1 frame. Only Falcon's has 3 active frames compared to Mac's 1, making it much better for stuffing out spot dodges, approaches (spin dash comes to mind), and especially ledge get up options (keep in mind that it can also kill at 130-150% at the ledge depending on rage). Imagine Fox's already godly ledge trapping combined with Falcon's jab—scary stuff.

Oh and for some reason it hits behind his back. Fox's jab is an even bigger offender. Yay hitbox shenanigans

All Mac's jab really has on Falcon's is its faster startup, the 2% extra on gentleman, and the trample effect, so it will continue the animation after clanking with other hitboxes.

Other S Tier candidates: :rosalina::4fox::4littlemac::4villager::4luigi:

:4zss::4marth::4lucina::4myfriends::4bowser::4sheik::4yoshi::4mario::4drmario: all also have great jabs.
I have no idea WHAT you're talking about with it being hard to SDI out of, most characters fall out of it naturally and i can usually SDI out before the 5 or 6th hit connects with Fox . What makes the jab good is how much range it has and the mixup potential. Even to a character like Fox its a wall at the ledge that's extremely hard to get past, damn near impossible without a wall to walljump with. It does have lower cooldown than Mac's by about three frames, but it can't true combo into a kill move like Mac can and it doesn't have that unreboundable property like Mac's. A frame 1 kill confirm, 12% combo, or wall that beats out literally every hitbox you can throw at it it what makes it the best. No other jab can even be compared to it and honestly it should have its own tier. Falcon has a good jab yes, frame 3 with some range makes it good at the ledge and it does have more mixup potential but considering Falcon's ground game outside of ftilt, jab, and grab its less useful compared to Little Macs dtilt, ftilt, up tilt, ko punch, etc. No other jab can come close to its level of utility except maybe Rosalina, and even then that's only with Luma on stage
 

Rizen

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Zelda's is nowhere close to A. Or B. It would be lucky to be in C.

You can have all of the quick cool down in the world: 11 frame start up is balls. That isn't an "annoying slow but it has combos out of it" move. That's straight up "slower than some tilts" slow. For a jab. Being able to combo into it doesn't redeem it much. It just keeps it out of the complete trash bin.

Roy's jab ain't even thinking about S either. Its... average. Sub-par start up time, has some range (not huge, but decent) and some iffy combos to it. Meh damage.
(I can't believe I'm defending Zelda but) if you think of her jab as a tilt it's not bad. 8 frames lag, +3 advantage on shield drop, good disjointed reach, 3 hits for 11% and it combos.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=298151780
Zelda has a frame 5 Dtilt that fills the void for her "jab" and her jab is more like a tilt. If Zelda didn't have Dtilt it would really suck.
 
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