R.I.P. Kjell Anders "Nappy" Peterson.

[nevershootme]

i'm on live stream

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/smash-live-stream

hahaha

 

[napZzz]

i'm on live stream

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/smash-live-stream

hahaha

Watching. I like this lucas zss team

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Does any one but me think that IC are snakes 2nd best complimentary secondary?

IC **** Oli, Falco, and D3 really hard. (falco and d3 the hardest)

IC fair bad against rob, but R.O.B IMO is a even match-up. ( I play alot of robs, even holy once or twice. I still think it's almost even, even holy thinks the Snake vs Rob match-up is even once both players know it )

IC can Easily make d3 cry himself to sleep, and make falco wish he wasn't high tier. Olimar is so easy to Backthrow+Downthorw chain grab that all you have to do is get one grab and that's a full stock.

anyone else agree?

Yes, if you can tolerate Nana's stupidity in this game.
I like the IC's in Melee, but it's like Sakurai made her dumber here.

It's almost as if he knows that she's a you-know-what.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Just putting it out there, the TL-Snake matchup is perfectly winnable. We do get grab-*****, but I'm not sure you understand how gay we can play...

Aerial bomb-camping is AWESOME, but boring as hell. Also, if TL doesn't want to be grabbed, he doesn't have to. (lol want to be grabbed...) Even powershielded, a perfectly spaced Zair>Punish.

Still, it's like 60-40...

 

[Zajice]

If you do get grabbed though, you're screwed. Like if you get grabbed by ICs.

 

[SuSa]

Just putting it out there, the TL-Snake matchup is perfectly winnable. We do get grab-*****, but I'm not sure you understand how gay we can play...

Aerial bomb-camping is AWESOME, but boring as hell. Also, if TL doesn't want to be grabbed, he doesn't have to. (lol want to be grabbed...) Even powershielded, a perfectly spaced Zair>Punish.

Still, it's like 60-40...

Winnable? Yes.

Dthrow still ***** you with a bit of practice + decent reaction speed? It can take AN ENTIRE STOCK off you with 1 throw.

Our grab ain't IC's range.

 

[Underload]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/smash-live-stream

SuSa! Watch!

 

[demonictoonlink]

Your tech-chase does NOT mean -1 stock. I understand how easy TL might be to tech-chase, but I guarantee mistakes will always be made. Plus we like to always have bombs in hand and a boomerang out.

 

[Underload]

It's not that bad for TL, Snake boards have to stop overexaggerating the dthrow techchase. And comparing his dthrow techchase to the ICs chaingrabs is just LOL.

 

[SuSa]

Your tech-chase does NOT mean -1 stock. I understand how easy TL might be to tech-chase, but I guarantee mistakes will always be made. Plus we like to always have bombs in hand and a boomerang out.

It's not that bad for TL, Snake boards have to stop overexaggerating the dthrow techchase. And comparing his dthrow techchase to the ICs chaingrabs is just LOL.

Underload, I suggest you practice the tech chase more...especially on characters with SHORT rolls with an attack that hits AWAY first....you sit there and wait.. then react to what he does.... <_< I only **** it up on WiFail due to input lag....

@DTL
A mistake shouldn't be made because it is 100% wait and react. I understand a mistake "might" happen, but then you may as well say. "Well IC's grab isn't -1 stock because I guarentee they will make a mistake!"

 

[Underload]

SuSa, don't underestimate people. I know the inner workings of a Snake techchase and I use it constantly.

It's NOT that bad for Toon Link.

 

[Underload]

On a completely different note, I think we need to clean up the Snake boards a bit.

I'll explain more later.

Also, SuSa, delete the utilt kill percent thread. Not important for now.

 

[SuSa]

React quicker and know your grabbing options to keep it away from ledges (where a down throw may push them off the ledge and into safety).

You sit there. Watch TL's animation. And react accordingly. If you can **** that up, then you must never had one of those kid recognizing shape toys where you put the shape into the proper hole.

Because you look at the hole (TL), you find your block (option) and you use it when needed (don't put the block on the wrong hole).

Yes, characters with further rolls that require you to start your run before they roll, or characters that have animations that look EXTREMELY close to another one of their animations (as to mix the two up very easily), or characters with a towards-away attack (forcing you to shield, possibly losing an option or two) may not be as good. I am stating this for a character that you ONLY react. No predictions at all. Just reaction.

If you **** it up, work on your reaction time.

 

[demonictoonlink]

If what SuSa is saying is true, the match-up should be about 90-10.
Do top level Snakes lose to top level Tinks ever? This would NOT be possible if the DThrow tech chase was an infinite.

 

[Underload]

If SuSa showed me a video of this, then I'd believe him. Otherwise, 60:40 is a good number, I think.

You have to admit, it's still pathetically easy to follow up a dthrow on TL. I think he might be able to get a jab / ftilt in during TL's getup attack animation?

EDIT: Thanks for the lock.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Yeah, my character sucks. I admit it. I don't care. I'll just second Metaknight. ^^

 

[SuSa]

If what SuSa is saying is true, the match-up should be about 90-10.
Do top level Snakes lose to top level Tinks ever? This would NOT be possible if the DThrow tech chase was an infinite.

If what DTL is saying is true, the TL vs IC matchup should be about 10-90.
Do top level IC's lose to top level Tinks ever? This would NOT be possible if their chaingrab was an infinite.

See how that works out?

60:40? Yes. Dthrow still completely ****ing ****** your character when done correctly? Yes. Proof of this happening at the highest levels of play and thus being a large enough factor to change the matchup ratio? Not yet. <_< If I ever face a well known TL I'll let you know. So far the 2 I've faced I've managed to 0-death 2 times in 1 set.

ZSS infinite on ROB didn't make the matchup 90-10
Ic's infinite on EVERYONE doesn't make every matchup 90-10
Falcon's infinite on ROB didn't make the matchup 90-10


Do most top level Snake's have every dthrow fact memorized? Not that I know of, considering I see MANY reacting before they even need to more often then not. The fact that they react before needed makes it so they are more likely to **** up - because then their opponent can react in a different way.

Yes, grab is hard to get. Yes there is a chance we can **** it up - we shouldn't - but it is there, however it is EASY enough that ****ing up isn't a LARGE deal. We should at least put you halfway to KO % + freshen up our most important moves if we are at all good at the tech chase.

 

[Fino]

Susa, I will $100 MM you that you can't -1 stock me (or MJG - TL main) from dthrow. The difference between snakes dthrow and IC's CG is IC grabs are buffered, and there is absolutely nothing you can do to get out, with the exception of grab breaking which doesn't work past a certain percent. Snake's throw isn't as guaranteed like IC's. It's called a tech chase (not an infinite) for a reason.

Such fail ._. You of all people, I would have thought, wouldn't be popularizing this stupid propaganda. You can't -1 stock people with dthrow... it's so dumb that people think that.


~Fino

 

[demonictoonlink]

Also...really...?
Did you just compare Snake getting a grab to IC's getting a grab? That's ******** and you know it.

 

[Underload]

...Woooow. Argument time!

OH! SUSA! Both Fino and DTL are going to be at NVGA SuperCon in Denver, Colorado. Me and Zaj are both going, too. You should come!

 

[etecoon]

even if you could 0 to kill % on TL from dthrow tech chase there's still the issue of actually killing him, you can't hold him in place while your snake clone charges up a smash on them


...

god I hate the ice climbers.

 

[Zajice]

Just replace the next d-throw with up tilt instead. :D



And it's just an example. I couldn't think of another grab related thing that would mess up your character. Yeah d-throw tech chase isn't guaranteed but it'll definitely rack up some damage if done right, and that's good enough.

 

[SuSa]

Susa, I will $100 MM you that you can't -1 stock me (or MJG - TL main) from dthrow. The difference between snakes dthrow and IC's CG is IC grabs are buffered, and there is absolutely nothing you can do to get out, with the exception of grab breaking which doesn't work past a certain percent. Snake's throw isn't as guaranteed like IC's. It's called a tech chase (not an infinite) for a reason.

Such fail ._. You of all people, I would have thought, wouldn't be popularizing this stupid propaganda. You can't -1 stock people with dthrow... it's so dumb that people think that.


~Fino

You can **** up the buffer. You can **** up the timing. At certain %'s you can mash out quickly enough. There are factors that make theirs different then Snake's. Snake's is not a repeated matter of inputs. It is simply watching. The difference between this watching and what I will call a normal tech chase is that it is 100% reaction. You don't move until they do. In many tech chases, you need to predict where they are going beforehand or have an extremely quick reaction to quickly change from a misprediction to the proper one. Also - unlike many other tech chases - this position repeats itself. Rather then tech chasing to get another hit in, you are tech chasing to start a tech chase. This means that this is rather of a loop and requires the Snake to mess up. If the Snake messes up, the IC's can mess up their timing. - Hence the point I am making.

You can't -1 stock someone with dthrow. However you can with dthrow -> Utilt.

Next time I vs a TL I'll save the replays. Even if it's online (I can still do this well enough online, but even a moment can **** it all up due to input delay)

Also...really...?
Did you just compare Snake getting a grab to IC's getting a grab? That's ******** and you know it.

I don't think you read me correctly.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I spend a long time with the Dthrow stuff during testing, I feel like replying to the issue

Snake's grab game is very much like ICs in a way, but very different at the same time. Snake has the potiential to 0%-Death pretty much the entire cast through the Tech Chases. But it is has never really been therortically guranteed like the ICs have.

In the case regarding TL, he is one of the easiest characters to Tech Chase (but remember that Tech Chasing itself is very difficult because of many factors affecting it). TL is easy to Tech Chase because all Snake has to do is simply stand still and wait for TL to make the first move and Snake can punish TL for that.

If TL stands up, Snake will grab.
If TL attacks, Snake can powershield/shield and grab.
If TL rolls either way, Snake can run up to him and Grab.

All of those methods are guaranteed for Snake to punish. And one does not have to to predict what TL will do in order for this to work. The the frame window for each action is larger enough to fit in the human reaction time for Snake to react to making it possible to 0% to death TL if he chooses all of those options. But the sad thing is that TL cannot be 0% to Death guaranteed in practice because TL can escape the Tech Chase easily. All TL has to do is lie on the ground and Snake cannot regrab TL and it'll only resort in Snake Ftilting TL. And if a TL knows this than Snake will never 0% tech chase TL to death and instead just equaling a 1 grab = 20%-30% attack chain.

Because of the whole "staying still" option, Snake cannot get a guranteed 0%-death a lot of the cast. There are a few people that might potientally be able to be Death Chased guranteed with the use of a Dthrow > Buffer Jab. This on a number of the cast members will elimnate the option for someone to "stay still" as Snake can then cover all 5 options out of the Dthrow as the Jab > regrab would cover that "staying still" option.

But that solution causes a number of problems. Some characters can escape the Jab > regrab through DI or an attack. Plus, if the jab does miss, that means snake has to move in a smaller window as he has to wait for the jab to end before doing anything.

For now, until we test to find out which characters can be jab > regrabbed guranteed and the other 4 options to be guranteed as well on a single character, Snake will not have a guranteed DeathChase on anyone.

You can't -1 stock someone with dthrow. However you can with dthrow -> Utilt.

Next time I vs a TL I'll save the replays. Even if it's online (I can still do this well enough online, but even a moment can **** it all up due to input delay)



I don't think you read me correctly.

Or you could Tech-Chase with Grabs uptil the point where a throw would kill them It would be incredibly difficult to repeat a tech-chase up till like 300%+ though.

 

[Underload]

Um, you posted the same thing twice.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Minor editing error.

 

[Zajice]

Maybe he did it on purpose? To emphasize his point.

 

[Underload]

No problem.

Oh, SuSa. Delete the up tilt thread, not just lock it.

95% chance I abandon the project, seeing as I can't get fresh kill percentages without having a ton of hassle. I have the whole post (code and all) saved in a .txt on my computer. Nothing lost if I ever decide to restart it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

No problem.

Oh, SuSa. Delete the up tilt thread, not just lock it.

95% chance I abandon the project, seeing as I can't get fresh kill percentages without having a ton of hassle. I have the whole post (code and all) saved in a .txt on my computer. Nothing lost if I ever decide to restart it.

I say to keep the thread up. Give an internet record of the data in come case the file is lost on your computer, or someone else wishes to start up your endeavor that you started.

 

[Underload]

I just plain don't like the current layout of thread and the posts in it.

I can repost it if you want to keep it. I'm not going to update it, though.

 

[SuSa]

I lock, don't close.

@Velox
Standing still still forces you to make an option eventually. Otherwise you force get up. It just tests the Snake's patience.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I lock, don't close.

@Velox
Standing still still forces you to make an option eventually. Otherwise you force get up. It just tests the Snake's patience.

True, I failed to think of that alternative. I guess we can still 0%-Death certain people. *throws Buffered > jab idea out the window* So much for all the time put into testing that option

I still see it being not guaranteed if staying still is a viable option for them due to certain circumstances at times. The argument is the time limit reason. If you are losing by a stock or percentage margin and refuse to react till they do, that gives them a free chance to stall the match. And it would not be considered stalling because game play is still possible because either of you could move. . . You both just choose not to move.

In that situation with being timed and you are "losing" in percent or stock lead, than you would be forced to make the first move eventually.

 

[Zajice]

If they stand still, C4 stick them. Or up-tilt at high percents. Standing still is not wise.

 

[SuSa]

True, I failed to think of that alternative. I guess we can still 0%-Death certain people. *throws Buffered > jab idea out the window* So much for all the time put into testing that option

I still see it being not guaranteed if staying still is a viable option for them due to certain circumstances at times. The argument is the time limit reason. If you are losing by a stock or percentage margin and refuse to react till they do, that gives them a free chance to stall the match. And it would not be considered stalling because game play is still possible because either of you could move. . . You both just choose not to move.

In that situation with being timed and you are "losing" in percent or stock lead, than you would be forced to make the first move eventually.

Depends how badly you are losing, what % they are at, and if they think the damage is worth it.

Eventually, you are forced to stand up IIRC. Down throw them, they wait, force stand up, down throw them, rinse and repeat. Mix the pummels in there (got data on that now if the formula was correct) until they are at the % that up tilt will KO them. (We have with DI @ FD, just adjust accordingly) and while it does stall, they could actually be trying to THROW STUFF and avoid you. Rather then stalling the match... if times low, ftilt.

I'm not saying go for the grab every time or ALWAYS wait it out... <_<

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Depends how badly you are losing, what % they are at, and if they think the damage is worth it.

Eventually, you are forced to stand up IIRC. Down throw them, they wait, force stand up, down throw them, rinse and repeat. Mix the pummels in there (got data on that now if the formula was correct) until they are at the % that up tilt will KO them. (We have with DI @ FD, just adjust accordingly) and while it does stall, they could actually be trying to THROW STUFF and avoid you. Rather then stalling the match... if times low, ftilt.

I'm not saying go for the grab every time or ALWAYS wait it out... <_<

I'll keep that in mind. Probably make it much easier to TechChase than I orignally thought. I overcomplicate and over think an issue failing to see all aspects all the time lol

If they stand still, C4 stick them. Or up-tilt at high percents. Standing still is not wise.

Odd to call it standing up when they lie on the ground lol

But that's what I hate about when someone stays still. They always get the advantage over you by making you do something first. If you ever attempt to C4 or Utilt, they can move at that very second and get invicibility really quick. So pretty much the best way to avoid the TechChase is to stay still for like a couple of frames, which would cause a Snake to want to act in that situation, then the Dthrow victim would just input some command in the start up frames of your action and you would miss them.

 

[Zajice]

Well you got what I meant. phailgramerz

I guess I'd rather wait it out. Up-tilt is kind of hard to avoid though since it comes out so fast. And while you're both just sitting there, it can be really pressuring, so they could react wrong. But so can you... >_>

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well you got what I meant. phailgramerz

I guess I'd rather wait it out. Up-tilt is kind of hard to avoid though since it comes out so fast. And while you're both just sitting there, it can be really pressuring, so they could react wrong. But so can you... >_>

Now that you mention it, I would say that if anyone could pull off Snake's Tech Chase on the cast, consitantly and without much error, they have 100% mad skillz.

 

[SuSa]

Up tilt hits frame 7.
IIRC, all rolls except Marth gets invincibility on frames 2 or 3 (I forget which)

That gives him 4-5 frames to see it + input it... which is really hard. <_< they'd need a fantastic reaction speed.....


Also against the whole cast? Naw... it's hard against a lot of them... I think there are very few where you can go off of only reaction and get the dthrow again (TL for sure) but others that have an away-towards attack.. foll far away when they roll away from us, which means reacting is harder and the likes.

 

[yellowroy]

you guys know all the snakes are at genesis? i know razer's there.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Utilt hits frame 6 but stays out longer than most of his other moves.
Why it stays out longer than his other tilts, aerials, and Fsmash, I will never know.