R.I.P. Kjell Anders "Nappy" Peterson.

[UltimateRazer]

Me vs Rich Brown LOSERS BRACKET: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqw6...xt=C3ef6a62UDOEgsToPDskLgUtSsZvZSKp-Fwfl5X93J

Me vs ADHD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNyy...xt=C3595b2eUDOEgsToPDskLt-5dUNfPALph4IOo037iY

enjoy.

 

[z00ted]

think you're SOOOO cool with your little "enjoy" bull****

F U, RAT

 

[ErikG]

False, I watched your set with ESAM.

You can jab tjolts, and you also shouldn't momentum cancel his upsmash or utilt unless you want to eat a thunder.

Match up is hard and gay

 

[Attila_]

i'm feeling that we should redo a mu discussion thread...

starting with... pikachu?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You should prolly start with match-ups that Snake loses in the opinion of the majority but doesn't actually lose in reality such as Olimar, DDD or Marth.

 

[Jrugs]

new mu's cuz snake doesn't actually win majority of the mu's neither.

 

[False]

Olimar: (-1) We lose to Olimar. Any competent Olimar who can camp correctly, juggles, and grabs at the right moments can win against a Snake.

DDD: (0) We go even with this fatty. We can camp the HELL out of him which makes up for the fact that we get chain grabbed. we can edge guard d3 really well too.

Pikachu: (-2) I'm sorry if I'm acting biased but I really think this MU is gay for Snake.

Marth: (0) I feel like if we establish stage/ground control we can really put the huge hurt on Marth. This can make up for the fact that we get zoned/juggled.

 

[DiskaSM]

Olimar: (-1) We lose to Olimar. Any competent Olimar who can camp correctly, juggles, and grabs at the right moments can win against a Snake.

DDD: (0) We go even with this fatty. We can camp the HELL out of him which makes up for the fact that we get chain grabbed. we can edge guard d3 really well too.

Pikachu: (-2) I'm sorry if I'm acting biased but I really think this MU is gay for Snake.

Marth: (0) I feel like if we establish stage/ground control we can really put the huge hurt on Marth. This can make up for the fact that we get zoned/juggled.

I was just talking with Xyro about this yesterday. Pika is WAY worse than D3 for us. I also think Marth is a -1, just there are very few good Marth players so a lot of people think it's even. And yes I do feel like Olimar is -1. He does the same thing we do, it's just he's a bit better at it in the Olimar- Snake MU.

Edit: You forgot to add MK there. MK is probably -2 as well, due to how easy it is for him to juggle and edgeguard Snake. Our only real hope for the MU is by ****** him with tech chasing, camping him hard, and killing really early with utilt.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13941262#post13941262

if you have pit experiance, please contribute to this thread. i literally just posted this discussion

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Snake doesn't lose to Olimar. Stop trying to camp him =/

Diska, I think it's totally the other way round. There are hardly any good Snake players so people think Marth beats Snake [most people do].

 

[Attila_]

If we're not supposed to camp olimar, then how do we get in?

I always thought we camp until we get a hit, then run in while he's airborne. Damage until he's reset the situation. Repeat.

That camping part can go for a while, though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If we're not supposed to camp olimar, then how do we get in?

Well, if I look at that question I kind of see a contradicting mentality in regards to the match-up. How do you expect to get in if you camp? While Olimar needs a while to actually gain a % lead via camping you can't expect to straight-up outcamp him, can you? Grenades are there to block off pikmin or to blow up a couple of them at once. Use that and a mix of walking, crouching and jab1 to get rid of pikmin asap while closing the gap between you and your opponent.

Snake is one of the very few character who can challenge Olimar is his own comfort zone [full fsmash / grab range] - not even MK can do that to the same extent. Ftilt becomes your main tool once you're close enough to him to a point where jab1 to knock off pikmin isn't safe anymore. Just don't actually finish the whole ftilt string ... insteat you mix up ftilt 1 with grab [to dthrow] or another ftilt 1 until you see him trying to grab you - that's when you use ftilt2 to get him away from you. That's the range you always try to get him into from a neutral position. Note that you can also beat fsmash with ftilt 1 [some pikmin might survive that though but I haven't looked into it enough; I assume Havok knows though] and then immediately punish him with the 2nd ftilt.
That's what I believe the close-range game to boil down to: using ftilt 1 to keep him under pressure / kill pikmin up close and then interrupt his attempted counter / punish with a well reacted + ftilt 2. Finish the whole ftilt string should be done mainly if you know there's not enough time to mix in a grab or start another ftilt1.

Another thing that Snake can do that most other characters can't is circumventing Olimar's whistle-armor. Olimar can whistle almost all characters' aerials [including all of MK's aerials] - Snake's nair is the big exception because its hitbox lasts so incredibly long. Most people don't believe it but Snake's nair is a rather big issue for an airborne Olimar. He can whistle + airdodge it to the ground but that's a free grab or utilt [both **** Olimar horribly]. The way most Snake players approach this match-up it looks like a +1 for Olimar but I think toning town the camp game a bit [I know Havok made similar claim in the past and he supposedly never lost a set to Richbrown anymore after picking up Snake] can make this easily even. And I also believe that it will become necessary to deal more closely with the properties of each pikmin regardless of what character you play ... if you understand exactly how each of them works I can see this becoming a +1 for Snake.

 

[DiskaSM]

Snake doesn't lose to Olimar. Stop trying to camp him =/

Diska, I think it's totally the other way round. There are hardly any good Snake players so people think Marth beats Snake [most people do].

Well, if I look at that question I kind of see a contradicting mentality in regards to the match-up. How do you expect to get in if you camp? While Olimar needs a while to actually gain a % lead via camping you can't expect to straight-up outcamp him, can you? Grenades are there to block off pikmin or to blow up a couple of them at once. Use that and a mix of walking, crouching and jab1 to get rid of pikmin asap while closing the gap between you and your opponent.

Snake is one of the very few character who can challenge Olimar is his own comfort zone [full fsmash / grab range] - not even MK can do that to the same extent. Ftilt becomes your main tool once you're close enough to him to a point where jab1 to knock off pikmin isn't safe anymore. Just don't actually finish the whole ftilt string ... insteat you mix up ftilt 1 with grab [to dthrow] or another ftilt 1 until you see him trying to grab you - that's when you use ftilt2 to get him away from you. That's the range you always try to get him into from a neutral position. Note that you can also beat fsmash with ftilt 1 [some pikmin might survive that though but I haven't looked into it enough; I assume Havok knows though] and then immediately punish him with the 2nd ftilt.
That's what I believe the close-range game to boil down to: using ftilt 1 to keep him under pressure / kill pikmin up close and then interrupt his attempted counter / punish with a well reacted + ftilt 2. Finish the whole ftilt string should be done mainly if you know there's not enough time to mix in a grab or start another ftilt1.

Another thing that Snake can do that most other characters can't is circumventing Olimar's whistle-armor. Olimar can whistle almost all characters' aerials [including all of MK's aerials] - Snake's nair is the big exception because its hitbox lasts so incredibly long. Most people don't believe it but Snake's nair is a rather big issue for an airborne Olimar. He can whistle + airdodge it to the ground but that's a free grab or utilt [both **** Olimar horribly]. The way most Snake players approach this match-up it looks like a +1 for Olimar but I think toning town the camp game a bit [I know Havok made similar claim in the past and he supposedly never lost a set to Richbrown anymore after picking up Snake] can make this easily even. And I also believe that it will become necessary to deal more closely with the properties of each pikmin regardless of what character you play ... if you understand exactly how each of them works I can see this becoming a +1 for Snake.

Dude... who exactly are you, where are you from, and judging by your picture and the sign below it, you're a Mario main, right? So why are you in the Snake boards telling Snake players how their character's metagame is? Not trying to sound mean, but unless you have a lot of experience as a high or top level player of one of the characters you mentioned, idk man. Also players of different countries have different perceptions of the game and how it is optimally played - EU seems to fail at defense but has a strong offense, America has great defense and focuses more on that usually, etc.

Snake does lose to Olimar. Other than the very top level Snakes (Razer mostly), almost all Snakes lose to top Olimars. Heck even Razer lost a recent $50 MM to Dabuz (though it was close). I was at that tournament. I main Snake and second Olimar... I understand both well. I actually place decently offline in Texas, a very hard place to do well at. And I have played Dabuz too and other really good Olimars and watched plenty of sets of top players in this MU. I know what I'm talking about, more than most non-Snake/Oli mains would know.

That being said, the MU is arguable. But I'm dead certain that Snake loses it by a bit. Both rack up the damage really fast, but overall Snake dies much earlier than usual in the Snake-Oli mu (assuming the Olimar player knows how to use pikmin correctly). Olimar dies just a bit early, if and ONLY if you kill him with utilt or gimp him (Snake trying to gimp Olimar is a terrible idea usually, you may often get gimped for it if you're Snake). Olimar flat out outcamps Snake. If both players play really well, the Snake player is almost always forced to approach, though if Olimar messes up he can take a bit of damage. Olimar's mid-range game beats EVERYTHING Snake has. You over-rate ftilt1. It's rather slow, offline, and it's easily punished if Olimar is careful. His pivot grab WRECKS absolutely EVERY approach option that Snake has. Yes, if he spams grab and you PERFECTLY time it, you can hit him out of it due to his lack of grab armor. But getting that timing is hard, and for it to work Olimar has to be acting dumb. If the Olimar player is smart, you'll be shield grabbed for obvious ftilt attempts unless you have nades or something to cover you. Yes, it is possible for a Snake player to do what you say, but it's hard, and especially at low damages no Snake player in his right mind should approach Olimar under normal circumstances, seeing that a grab at 0% can lead into combos that take you from 0%-40/80% depending on how smart each of you is. If Snake is predictable without being super careful in almost anything on the ground at midrange, Olimar has the superior range to punish him.

Anyway I'm overall saying that Olimar is better than Snake at controlling the stage and at juggling, and Olimar's huge weakness in recovery is not as big of a deal vs Snake as opposed to most characters. Due to Snake's weight and bad landing, Olimar can build up the damage in an instant if Snake isn't super careful. You're right that when Snake is up in Olimar's face, Snake is in the advantage, but getting in is much harder than you think it is and you sound really dumb when you say that Snake can beat or go even at Olimar mid-range. He can't. Snake will almost always lose midrange. Also at high level tech chasing is hard and you can be punished for it if you're Snake.

No, camping is good in this MU for Snake. Unless there's an obvious good opportunity to get in (i.e. Olimar is in the air/offstage/under pressure by explosives/approaching without being super careful), Snake is best off a good deal away, chucking nades. At low damage, being close to Olimar leads to a lot of damage for Snake, and at high damage, being close is asking to die from an usmash/throw.

When you speak of Snake's aerials, you must remember that overall they are the laggiest in the whole game and ALL must be full-hopped to complete without major landing lag, though some require a second jump to have a non-laggy landing. 3 of Snake's aerials don't even have autocancels. You also have to remember nair is SDI'able. Olimar can get out under Snake and usnash/shield grab him for it.

The MU is -1. Playing defensive is not the wrong way to play it; it allows Snake players a chance to win, instead of going from 0-80 in 6 seconds and from dying at 120% from Olimar's usmash. Also, Snake cannot really cp Olimar stage-wise, as their strengths and weaknesses are very similar and they do well on the same stages usually.

Marth is also -1, there are few top level Snakes, but a lot more mid and high level Snakes than there are Marth players. Marth excels at punishing recovery and landing, and at pressuring his opponents to the ledge and then getting them offstage. If Marth stays on the ground all the time like a dumb 5 year old, yeah, Snake will lay on that damage in no time. But if both are smart and careful, Marth's superior range/juggling will usually lead to Snake in the air or offstage. Also, Marth is REALLY good at getting Snake offstage early. If this happens it's usually a free spike attempt, or about 70%. It's not even imo, especially considering that almost every cp stage helps Marth in the MU. Though on stages like FD it might be a bit in Snake's favor.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ok

 

[zmx]

Yeah Nair is very SDIable. It's not an issue for Olimar players. And that's if you can actually get him high in the air in the first place.

Also ftilt1-grab is NOT a true combo despite whatever you've seen in videos. They can easily react to it after a while and punish you for it. Jab to grab is a better option anyways. As Jab tends to get Oli in the air where he's easy to grab.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've never said it's a true combo lmao. People immediately assuming everybody else to be stupid for no reason is really making me sick. Have fun not making any progress, bye -.-

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Would anyone find it useful to have a proper Utilt KO chart? One that factors in momentum canceling and DI?

What Gheb has mentioned, I have tried doing more often recently and I've been having more success because of it.

To me, its moving Snake just outside of Olimar's fsmash/grab range. If olimar risks an approach, you can punish it with a shield or dodge or simply attacking as he does something. If he keeps retreating, you can eventually work him to the ledge where he has no room to camp. And at that point trying to throw pikmin or use aerials becomes risky. And Snake can afford to do this since he lives so long. Only thing to be wary of is purple pikmin when thrown and other approaches to try to kill you.

Camping with grenades takes a lot of risk with marginal reward. At least with a ftilt or grab on olimar you get so much more out of it if you get it off the bat.

 

[etecoon]

olimar is snake's worst MU, I never thought DDD was as bad and marth is really close to even IMO

ftilt 1 > grab may not be a true combo but nothing snake does really is, you have to find the gaps in your opponents game to take advantage of to win with snake

this game is still awful, I should trade it in towards my xenoblade pre-order...

 

[DiskaSM]

Would anyone find it useful to have a proper Utilt KO chart? One that factors in momentum canceling and DI?

What Gheb has mentioned, I have tried doing more often recently and I've been having more success because of it.

To me, its moving Snake just outside of Olimar's fsmash/grab range. If olimar risks an approach, you can punish it with a shield or dodge or simply attacking as he does something. If he keeps retreating, you can eventually work him to the ledge where he has no room to camp. And at that point trying to throw pikmin or use aerials becomes risky. And Snake can afford to do this since he lives so long. Only thing to be wary of is purple pikmin when thrown and other approaches to try to kill you.

Camping with grenades takes a lot of risk with marginal reward. At least with a ftilt or grab on olimar you get so much more out of it if you get it off the bat.

Go for the utilt KO chart! In general I know the damages in most mus (stage-related) but it would be nice to have a chart with them.

I like how you put it there, that actually makes sense a bit. lol. However I feel like nade camping, while killing any pikmin, turns the game into a test of patience. You can always do a jump while throwing the nade as well to get above the pikmin's angle of throw briefly.

I do feel like approaching Olimar is kind of risky at times and you can get punished a lot for it. This MU is hard.

 

[etecoon]

didn't someone already make a utilt chart? I can't remember exactly but that sounds like something susa or xeylode were working on once...

 

[UltimateRazer]

Snake doesn't lose to Olimar nor Marth. It's even or better.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

im that persistent ******* who will keep posting this link in here until you come discuss this MU with us snake mains. and i see yall are just discussing MUs anyways so come contribute.

razer you know ill post this over and over until i get results. and if you don't ill beat you up next time i see you at syncs (am i trolling tho razer? AM I?)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13943361#post13943361

 

[Attila_]

Dude... who exactly are you, where are you from, and judging by your picture and the sign below it, you're a Mario main, right? So why are you in the Snake boards telling Snake players how their character's metagame is? Not trying to sound mean, but unless you have a lot of experience as a high or top level player of one of the characters you mentioned, idk man. Also players of different countries have different perceptions of the game and how it is optimally played - EU seems to fail at defense but has a strong offense, America has great defense and focuses more on that usually, etc.

gheb is a mad dog. dont diss him so easily.

cant say i've heard of you before, but i'm not going to automatically disregard your advice, nor will i diss you as player.

didn't someone already make a utilt chart? I can't remember exactly but that sounds like something susa or xeylode were working on once...

i was made, but all tests were carried out on a non-controlled cpu, so they never took di into account. this makes a rather large difference.

Snake doesn't lose to Olimar nor Marth. It's even or better.

care to elaborate as to why? i for one would be very interested in your opinion.

 

[DiskaSM]

gheb is a mad dog. dont diss him so easily.

cant say i've heard of you before, but i'm not going to automatically disregard your advice, nor will i diss you as player.

I'm not trying to diss anyone; it's more like, there's a guy who apparently mains Mario who is in here telling us how to fight Olimar with Snake. I'm just wondering where he gets his ideas from. It'd be like me going into an IC thread and telling them how to fight Falco. They'd probably want to know where I was getting my ideas.


Also, Razer please tell us your ideas about the Olimar and Marth matchups, I'm interested to hear what you think.

 

[Dabuz]

Snake doesn't lose to Olimar nor Marth. It's even or better.

-1 for snake. Thats all.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

im that persistent ******* who will keep posting this link in here until you come discuss this MU with us snake mains. and i see yall are just discussing MUs anyways so come contribute.

razer you know ill post this over and over until i get results. and if you don't ill beat you up next time i see you at syncs (am i trolling tho razer? AM I?)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13943361#post13943361

o-o I'm not sure if many Snakes know this mu well enough to discuss it. Aside from NE, but i'm not sure how often they post on here.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm more of the opinion that no one has an Olimar to play regularly

i was made, but all tests were carried out on a non-controlled cpu, so they never took di into account. this makes a rather large difference.

^This. Now that I can access debug mode I can get a proper percentage. Only it takes a rather long and boring couple of hours counting frames.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

*looks at jrugs and razer and fatal*

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So because I have a Mario avatar I am a Mario main [hint: I'm not] and there's no way I know my stuff about Snake? Kay, guess you gotta change your avatar to Snake to be allowed to post your knowledge here ROFL.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Well there's also that little Mario picture below your avatar that is supposed to show a picture of your main. Pretty misleading as well. =P

 

[etecoon]

I almost never used that icon to represent my actual main, a lot of people don't

etecoon 1,645
napZzz 1,544
SuSa 1,491
Xeylode 1,475
Underload 1,433
Zajice 1,404
berserker01 1,091
Yumewomiteru 1,084
Darkshadow7827 777
Black_Heretic 773

I think me and xeylode are the only top 10 posters left here, would be kind of sad to begin with even before considering that one of us is dead. people always come and go but it seems like a lot leave under unfavorable circumstances, susa seemed to have some serious life issues when he left

I also think xeylode might be the only person on this list that still plays brawl lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, I think Berk has been spending a lot of time thinking of what the next game should be.

Zajice refuses to come here since its so boring here with nothing except smash talk. You have to admit, unless someone has a good idea to discuss, no one does much. And we can never keep a conversation going about anything else anyway lol We don't even get any random trolls coming and doing stuff. Which would be pretty simple given UL seems busy with... something. A whole month he was gone and seems to be starting up again lol

I'm pretty sure dark and yume still play, but they like most other players find nothing special on the boards. There is not a whole lot to discuss with Snake really. Yet, no one ever feels like saying anything else except smash lol

 

[etecoon]

dark might still play, I think yume's been done with the game even longer than I have.

so...non-smash stuff. I started playing arkham city today. fun so far except they make you install games for windows live, I hate microsoft. snake has a lot of parallels to batman, it's kinda surprising there haven't been more good batman games, licensed games do tend to suck but the character lends itself so well to it

anyone played skyward sword? it has some serious flaws but I think it's the best zelda since majora's mask, it has something going on that I really felt like has been missing for the past decade in that series.

 

[ErikG]

I was saying the other day how a Spiderman game should be easy to make well.

 

[Ken Neth]

I used to be one of the top posters here back in the day till I went to Europe for two years and didn't touch smash once.

 

[Attila_]

Skyward sword?

I've heard so many good things. Will get round to it eventually lol.

In between work and training I don't have enough free time.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

dark might still play, I think yume's been done with the game even longer than I have.

so...non-smash stuff. I started playing arkham city today. fun so far except they make you install games for windows live, I hate microsoft. snake has a lot of parallels to batman, it's kinda surprising there haven't been more good batman games, licensed games do tend to suck but the character lends itself so well to it

anyone played skyward sword? it has some serious flaws but I think it's the best zelda since majora's mask, it has something going on that I really felt like has been missing for the past decade in that series.

See quote below for my response on superheroes.

I believe you know I have played Skyward Sword. I still find Ocarina of Time to be the more fun game. This one was too wordy for my liking. Still good, but I believe its on par with all the others on home consoles. The DS titles were bad. Not the type of game-play I like having to use the stylus to do anything.

I was saying the other day how a Spiderman game should be easy to make well.

How the hell do you make a decent game out of any video game based off a superhero? I'm bias against the whole superhero thing. It's too pronounced for my liking. The more subtle or unknown or modest heroes are how I prefer them.

I used to be one of the top posters here back in the day till I went to Europe for two years and didn't touch smash once.

Ah, back in the day. The time when Snake was feared for being too broken How times have certainly changed.

Which part or parts of Eruope did you get to stay in? I'm not entirely sure what places are worth seeing other than the heavily culture focus in Paris, France.

Skyward sword?
I've heard so many good things. Will get round to it eventually lol.
In between work and training I don't have enough free time.

You could tweet your day to us and keep things interesting. Or if they do not seem interesting you could make them interesting. Start your own SWF tweet followers lol Yeah, I hate the lack of free time as you become older.

 

[etecoon]

I believe you know I have played Skyward Sword. I still find Ocarina of Time to be the more fun game. This one was too wordy for my liking. Still good, but I believe its on par with all the others on home consoles. The DS titles were bad. Not the type of game-play I like having to use the stylus to do anything.

Like I said, it's a very mixed bag. The pacing with Fi and it constantly throwing you hints is obnoxious, but what it does well is so good that I can forgive it. I still like MM the most of the 3D games but I do have to consider SS a rebound from WW and TP, there are novice mistakes in the game in terms of game design but it has a creative energy that has been missing IMO...spirit tracks had a little of it too but that game was completely ruined by the controls for me so it didn't really matter

How the hell do you make a decent game out of any video game based off a superhero? I'm bias against the whole superhero thing. It's too pronounced for my liking. The more subtle or unknown or modest heroes are how I prefer them.

Games help you live out the impossible, having super powers and doing insane stuff with them is fun. Batman especially to me though because he doesn't have super powers, he's just a super intelligent world class martial artist with a lot of gadgets and body armor...Like I said, I see a lot of parallels with him and Snake or Big Boss(though Big Boss does have freakish super human strength...)

 

[DiskaSM]

anyone played skyward sword? it has some serious flaws but I think it's the best zelda since majora's mask, it has something going on that I really felt like has been missing for the past decade in that series.

I played through it already, and now I'm almost done with Hero Mode. I personally think it's not as good as Wind Waker or OoT, but better than MM or TP.

It has some serious flaws yes, the graphics are TERRIBLE imo, and motion control was neat but it wasn't implemented well with some things (swimming and flying get terribly tedious after just a bit). Also it's dumb you can't even go underwater without getting the Water Dragon scale. Fi sucks, Midna was much better. The overworld is far too small; I know Nintendo was pushing for a more compact game, but this really ruins replay value for me imo cause after the first time I played it, I felt like I'd played it a few times because of revisiting places over and over. Fighting the same bosses (Girahim, The Imprisoned and the big scorpion) more than once was dumb and got really old fast. Also, having breakable shields is meh imo.

On the other hand, all the major dungeons were incredible. Also the bosses were all challenging and so were the normal enemies (unlike TP). The music was probably the best of any Zelda game I've played. I also loved the stamina feature. The game has a lot of RPG elements with a ton of sidequests (didn't like these much personally, but I can tell Nintendo was really pushing for something new). The trials were awesome, some of my favorite times in the game. The story was great overall as well.

The game does leave you feeling that it was an ambitiously made unlike the 3D Zelda games since OoT. This game was intended to feel new and in many ways it does. I like it, but it's not my favorite. But definitely worth playing.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

The more subtle or unknown or modest heroes are how I prefer them.

D= You don't like Deadpool then?

Also MM is probably my favorite LoZ game. =D