Quick survey: Would you prefer Smash's simpler controls be replaced by more classic arcade fighting game controls?

Would you prefer simple Smash controls, or more complicated arcade fighter controls?


  • Total voters
    107

Christian_CAO

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#41
Street Fighter, Blazblue, DBFZ, King of Fighters, Fatal Fury/Garou, Pocket Rumble, Blade Strangers, and now Guilty Gear and Mortal Kombat 11 coming in the spring? There are plenty of options.
... all great games but they aren't produced by Nintendo.

That was the point of the conversation. I was replying back to another individual who said "But What's the Point of Two Nintendo Fighting games"

To be fair, my tldr summarized my response poorly since I worded it without context making it seem like I meant fighting games in general
when I actually meant Nintendo Brand fighting games, So I can see why you responded.

No harm no foul, either way, more options are always welcome. Even better if they aren't garbage.
 
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#42
... all great games but they aren't produced by Nintendo.

That was the point of the conversation. I was replying back to another individual who said "But What's the Point of Two Nintendo Fighting games"

To be fair, my tldr summarized my response poorly since I worded it without context making it seem like I meant fighting games in general
when I actually meant Nintendo Brand fighting games, So I can see why you responded.

No harm no foul, either way, more options are always welcome. Even better if they aren't garbage.
I guess ARMS is the second one... unless you strictly mean traditional arcade style fighter. In which case, I'm not sure if Nintendo would bother. As it turns out, ARMS' entire conception was based on a solving a rudimentary design limitation of traditional fighters being only 2D by wanting the camera to be behind the player. I doubt they would turn their back on solving a very basic limitation like that and just make a traditional fighting game, especially since the fighting game genre as a whole suffers from lower overall player base, I think, specifically because traditional fighting games don't actually reevaluate their systems to make them better.
 

Luigifan18

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#44
I guess ARMS is the second one... unless you strictly mean traditional arcade style fighter. In which case, I'm not sure if Nintendo would bother. As it turns out, ARMS' entire conception was based on a solving a rudimentary design limitation of traditional fighters being only 2D by wanting the camera to be behind the player. I doubt they would turn their back on solving a very basic limitation like that and just make a traditional fighting game, especially since the fighting game genre as a whole suffers from lower overall player base, I think, specifically because traditional fighting games don't actually reevaluate their systems to make them better.
Hmmm... that's interesting, but ARMS is far from being the first 3D "traditional" fighter — Soul Calibur and certain installments of Mortal Kombat come to mind. Now I’m curious as to whether or not a 3D Smash-like fighting game can ever be a thing (and by “Smash-like”, I mean having an emphasis on high mobility (with air mobility being highly flexible but ultimately finite), lots of platforms to exploit that mobility, an emphasis on knocking the enemy outside the boundaries of the stage, stages having bottomless pits to fall into if a character gets knocked away from the stage (but not beyond the boundaries) and is unable to get back to standable ground, and characters being able to interfere with offstage enemies’ attempts to return to the stage).
 

TMNTSSB4

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#45
I would have to be a complete dumb*** to change anything about the gameplay of Smash. It would become another basic *** fighting game instead of the magnificent masterpiece we have today
 

leafgreen386

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#46
I'd actually prefer something in between what smash has now and arcade controls. Or really, just more granular custom control options.

Currently, if you press forward on the control stick and then press A (while on the ground), depending on the timing and context of these inputs, you could get either a forward tilt, forward smash, or a dash attack. The so-called "simplified" system smash has actually makes it harder to get the exact move you want, when you're trying to get that move out as quickly as possible.

You can remap your controls to get around this by using tilt stick, and with either tilt or smash stick you can press forward+forward cstick to instant dash attack, but there's no way to fully separate these three actions into separate inputs. No matter how you set your controls, you'll always be able to perform any of tilt, smash, and dash attack with the control stick+A button.

That said, I absolutely would not want to see them fold the special button into the attack button and rely on special input motions. The control stick already does enough things as is.
 
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JiggyNinja

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#47
I think having a button shortcut (A+B) for making Smash attacks easier was the exact opposite of what they needed to do. It's already stupidly easy to do smash attacks even with the stick sensitivity set to High. Pisses me off when I get K. Rool's ****ty Up Smash when I'm trying for an uppercut.

Better option might be to DISABLE smash attacks on the control stick. You've already got the C stick for smashes, so it's redundant. I know you can set the C stick to Tilt, but I'm just not used to it.
 

FartyParty

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#48
I think having a button shortcut (A+B) for making Smash attacks easier was the exact opposite of what they needed to do. It's already stupidly easy to do smash attacks even with the stick sensitivity set to High. Pisses me off when I get K. Rool's ****ty Up Smash when I'm trying for an uppercut.

Better option might be to DISABLE smash attacks on the control stick. You've already got the C stick for smashes, so it's redundant. I know you can set the C stick to Tilt, but I'm just not used to it.
You know you can turn off the A+B = smash attack option? Also, that setting is valuable because it allows you to buffer a smash input.

Plus you should be tilting more often than you smash and that's the real reason tilt stick is superior. Fewer button presses with tilt stick.
 
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Khao

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#49
God no.

I like traditional fighters. Having techniques that require practice to even perform once makes them extremely satisfying to pull off in a real match. But Smash is unique in that you can get some of that satisfaction without the hours of practice. At most, you have to understand the tilt/smash system, and get used to its timing. And also not to panic when recovering. You got that down, and you're already playing without feeling like a blind man watching a silent movie. In traditional fighters, it takes work for that feeling to go away, and it's gonna be a long time for a player to even learn the fundamentals. Let alone the entire set of mechanics and how to use them.

Both design methods have their appeal, and I'd hate to see one either one taking over the other. Smash is the biggest example of an easy to learn fighter. We can't lose that.

Also, about things like short-hop shortcuts and **** like that... Despite liking Smash's easy-to-learn philosophy, I honestly don't like those kinda things. Not because they make things "easier", but because they're messy to be honest, especially when you get into the agressive buffering system. Right now there's too many alternate ways to do the same action in Smash, and from my experience when teaching new players how to play, it's more confusing than helpful. And for me, who already knows how to do those things, they just get in the way. Because of the short-hop shortcut there's literally no way to buffer an aerial out of a full jump. If you try, you get a short hop. And you can't even turn this thing off, like you can with A+B=Smash. This is the only Smash game on which I sometimes short hop by accident. Smash is supposed to be simple to excecute, but I still have to conciously play around these shortcuts if I don't want to trigger them accidentally. Would be fine if I could turn it off, but I can't.
 
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Christian_CAO

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#50
I guess ARMS is the second one... unless you strictly mean traditional arcade style fighter. In which case, I'm not sure if Nintendo would bother. As it turns out, ARMS' entire conception was based on a solving a rudimentary design limitation of traditional fighters being only 2D by wanting the camera to be behind the player. I doubt they would turn their back on solving a very basic limitation like that and just make a traditional fighting game, especially since the fighting game genre as a whole suffers from lower overall player base, I think, specifically because traditional fighting games don't actually reevaluate their systems to make them better.
I mentioned ARMS in a previous post, but honestly Pokken does a better job with its system than ARMS does with the phase shifting dynamic. Either way, those are both arena fighters and not "traditional" fighting games by any means. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with 2D fighting games "limitations". In fact the familiarity of those games is what hooks the playerbase. It's fine to have sub genres like arena fighters and the like but there's something to be said of the 2D fighting games not changing or altering their systems to make them "better" for so long.

Either way, ARMS, Pokken Tournament and Smash are all Nintendo have to call their own. Two of those three games are easily lacking in the numbers department while smash itself holds the flagship title for THE Nintendo "fighting" game. The other two exist, nothing more nothing less. Experiments that try to do too much while still retaining "simplicity". ARMS would've been so much better if they gave up on the "gimmick" that is simplicity and focused on giving the game more depth (there's "depth" but a puddle isn't an ocean folks). Controls also need work in a major way since input and command responses are a bit awkward at times. Pokken is honestly fantastic, sure it could be improved but they've improved the arena fighter (anime simulator style) combat system by quite a bit with the idea of phases for close quarters combat and ranged combat. The real issue with Pokken has more to do with execution and simplicity holding things back coupled with some flaws with ranged combat ruining the overall experience of the gameplay, but that's something to learn from in all Arena fighters (anime simulators style)

but yeah
 
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#51
Experiments that try to do too much while still retaining "simplicity". ARMS would've been so much better if they gave up on the "gimmick" that is simplicity and focused on giving the game more depth (there's "depth" but a puddle isn't an ocean folks).

The real issue with Pokken has more to do with execution and simplicity holding things back coupled with some flaws with ranged combat ruining the overall experience of the gameplay, but that's something to learn from in all Arena fighters (anime simulators style)
You mention "simplicity" twice here. What forms of simplicity are you referring to here? Simple controls causing these problems, or simple mechanics? Or both?
 

Christian_CAO

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#52
You mention "simplicity" twice here. What forms of simplicity are you referring to here? Simple controls causing these problems, or simple mechanics? Or both?
I mentioned simplicity twice because I mentioned it once in two games. Once in ARMS and again in Pokken.

The double mention of simplicity for ARMS was explaining the gimmick of the motion controls to show off the joy con grip as a function rather than another nintendo being "innovative" for the sake of it and showing off the hardware. It's not bad but once you plug in a controller there are issues with commands since the JCgrip had finesse and certain movements and commands require the grip to pull off, but it also opens the door to accidental inputs far more than a classic controller setup. Switching between the two you can immediately tell the difference. There is plenty to learn for the game and while it is no different from a traditional fighter in the sense that in order to do anything you need to press button commands and characters essentially perform similarly to one another while retaining a unique playstyle, it's still far too simplified (commands for actions) for its own good.

tldr ARMS is a case of "Simple" Controls that make the game feel less than it truly is. Depth is there in a sense but it is still quite limited

Pokken isn't really held back by simplicity with controls or mechanics, though combat mechanics could be improved, it's the arena fighter flaw of ranged combat that sullies the experience. No one likes spam after all, despite it working, and there's an entire phase dedicated to it. It's great since it creates a form of control since players can force a phase change, placing themselves in and out of advantageous situations based on a pokemons strengths, but ranged attacks are too "simple" while still being obnoxiously strong/ annoying/ easy to spam. The solace here is that at least all characters have a form of ranged combat (not all are created equal in order to preserve their strengths and weaknesses, obviously) but still, the most depth to obtain in ranged combat is entirely based on what the characters are capable of rather than the players interacting with one anthers play styles.

The controls for combat being too simple isn't really an issue though opening up more commands could've allowed for more offensive options and even utility moves if they really wanted to expand movesets for the pokemon even more (less is less, more is more, focusing on one or two aspects is simply emphasizing what you want to showcase).The same could be said for ARMS as well. Yes, Button inputs would increase the chances of critical failures during execution with accidental inputs, but having more options in combat to utilize for the characters wouldn't be a "bad thing".
Easy to learn and hard to master does apply to both games here.

However, there is something to be said of the respective communities for the games and the success of both titles. Looking at it that way, who plays ARMS anymore? I hope there will be future support for the game because honestly it was one of the few first games on the switch and that's the only reason why it had any actual showing. New game, played for a few months, dropped because new games came out. Could play it again but there's so much more to play now, who really has the time to want to flail their arms around in ARMS?

Who still plays Pokken? Thank goodness for the arcades and the deluxe version because otherwise....yeesh. I mean, I still play it but honestly the numbers are no where near the same as they were in launch day. Online matches aren't hard to come by but still there's a noticeable difference.

Smash doesn't have these problems because it's a legacy title unlike these newer games that are taking a chance. Especially ARMS. I want ARMS to succeed, but until ARMS gets significant control changes (to classic control setups, the grip is fine and needs tweaking at best) I don't see them doing much else (unless they dlc the hell out of it some more) until a sequel.

I lost my train of thought somewhere along the line

uh...tldr ARMS issue is simple controls (repeat~), Pokken is "perfect" but falls because spam so it's a simple mechanic issue.
 
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channel_KYX

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#53
And yet in my discussions on reddit, there's quite a few people who would say the inclusion of a shorthop button would be a terrible thing, equivalent to an FPS auto aim. Basically, they think a shorthop button would cause the game to play itself optimally for you, since that's what auto aim does.
By that logic, we would need to remove the grab button as well, because you got shield + attack...
 
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#54
I voted other. I think the game could use a little bit more complexity in controls, but like many here are saying the brilliance of smash is in its simplicity. The simplicity allows for more focus on overall strategy, mind games, timing, spacing, precision and consistency, as well as more focus on movement in general.

Edit: Games that are simple to understand on a surface level, such as chess, often have the greatest depths. Not that I'm directly comparing Smash to chess, but you get the idea.
 
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channel_KYX

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#56
the shorthop button would "slow down" competitive players
WTF am I reading.
Auto-aim slows down competitive shooter players?

But, you might say, we can do the same thing with my idea! If decision making is so much more skillful than dexterity, we can create a game focused entirely around decision making with no need for dexterity! You can take as much time as you need to make your decision, and so can the opponent! Can those kinds of games be fun to play?

Considering I just describe every turn-based game in existence, I hope I don't need to actually answer that rhetorical question.
You truly are a scrub. It sounds like you wanted to say that chess might be fun for someone.
 
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JiggyNinja

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#57
Again, that's what I said to them in the reddit conversation, but then they said the shorthop button would "slow down" competitive players while shield+attack for grab wouldn't.
That is because they're idiots that don't know WTF they're talking about.
You truly are a scrub. It sounds like you wanted to say that chess might be fun for someone.
Words. Do you know how to use them?

Summarizing and rephrasing my point a bit: complicating the interface requires skill that is independent of the opponent's actions. It's a fight against the game itself, not a fight against the opponent. This doesn't make it an invalid form of skill, but it is so obviously contrary to the entire point of a fighting game, which is to fight against an opponent. If someone wants to fight against the game by requiring precise and complicated inputs, they'll have a lot more fun speed running something than trying to play a PvP game. The fun in PvP games comes from mindgames, prediction, and reads, not from pure technical skill. That is why turn-based PvP games like RPGs (basically Pokemon), card games, and board games are still enormously fun. There's no complexity in their execution, but all the other stuff I just listed is there.

So yeah, it was a bit long winded, but "chess is fun" is exactly the point I was making. Are you trying to say I'm wrong about that?
 

channel_KYX

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#58
So yeah, it was a bit long winded, but "chess is fun" is exactly the point I was making. Are you trying to say I'm wrong about that?
After reading my post again, I admit that it might be misunderstood - I was being sarcastic (I know, the "just kidding" saving throw).

Point is, I 100% agree with op and you. Hell, this whole "what is skill" debate is going on without end almost everywhere. I play mobas and Overwatch, and all the time people (=scrubs) complain about alleged low-skill characters, simply because they require less mechanical skill in their execution.

I love smash's controls and making them more complex for complexity's sake would be the start of its downfall.
 

Christian_CAO

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#59
Smashes simpler commands are fine as they are so replacing them with more classic controls is actually not an ideal idea.
However, supplementing what we already have with even more options for attack, defense and utility options would be interesting.

to be fair here.... wouldn't having command inputs add even more to character movesets?
Keeping what we have and then add commands for even more options...

...I'll be honest. I wouldn't hate it.
It'd be smash but now we'd have even more to learn and remember for every character and there'd be even more offensive and defensive options to work with in combat....imagining the other techniques that characters to have under their belts is honestly intriguing, at the very least.

People worrying about the game feeling less like smash because now the characters have even more things they can do... I hear you but I don't feel you.

Less is more as a design philosophy is great for visuals and the like but for gameplay... More is simply more.
Not to say muddling things with a ton of options is a "good" thing but I don't hate the idea of having the option to do even more.

It's not adding anything that people couldn't handle and it's not like there has to be a ton of new commands, just a few...
Or go all out, i'm down for anything honestly.
 
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#60
Smashes simpler commands are fine as they are so replacing them with more classic controls is actually not an ideal idea.
However, supplementing what we already have with even more options for attack, defense and utility options would be interesting.

to be fair here.... wouldn't having command inputs add even more to character movesets?
Keeping what we have and then add commands for even more options...

...I'll be honest. I wouldn't hate it.
It'd be smash but now we'd have even more to learn and remember for every character and there'd be even more offensive and defensive options to work with in combat....imagining the other techniques that characters to have under their belts is honestly intriguing, at the very least.

People worrying about the game feeling less like smash because now the characters have even more things they can do... I hear you but I don't feel you.

Less is more as a design philosophy is great for visuals and the like but for gameplay... More is simply more.
Not to say muddling things with a ton of options is a "good" thing but I don't hate the idea of having the option to do even more.

It's not adding anything that people couldn't handle and it's not like there has to be a ton of new commands, just a few...
Or go all out, i'm down for anything honestly.
I do think we should try to get more commands into Smash as a whole. In fact, I'm one of the biggest proponents of bringing back wavedashing in a single button form, and having varying wavedash distance be from tilt vs smash stick and for that same button, adding a sort of aerial wavedash when used in the air that works as a directional airdodge but with now invuln and you can attack during it, and that also could have varying distance too AND you can air dash into the ground to transition to wavedash for more distances, etc.

Another is a character specific "utility" button. Some characters in this game are complicated, and that's fine, but for the really weird things, you can use a utility button. Some examples I've come up with are desyncing the Ice Climbers with B, then you take control of only Popo, but holding down the utility button (probably a shoulder button), you take control of Nana only, and letting go will give control back to Popo. Another one is Corrin having human form and dragon form and switching between the two by hitting the utility button after attacks to continue combos while switching between them dynamically. Another is having all three Mii Fighters able to use all twelve of their special moves in battle, and switching through them with the utility button. It really could work to make more complicated characters feel a bit smoother control wise.

Aside from those, you also can give moves more purposes within themselves rather than make the controls more complicated. One example of a currently well done move that can be worked around many ways is Duck Hunt's can. You can attack it to reverse the trajectory, you can shoot it during grabs and hitstun, you can shoot the clay pigeon at it to have a cascade of hitboxes while also moving it forward. If more moves worked like that, it would definitely fit the "less is more" design, as you are making more emergent properties out of a few moves being interactable.
 

channel_KYX

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#61
Another is a character specific "utility" button. Some characters in this game are complicated, and that's fine, but for the really weird things, you can use a utility button.
Oh god yes. Map Inkling's reload to that button while you are at it. Shield + B is awful.
 

JiggyNinja

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#62
to be fair here.... wouldn't having command inputs add even more to character movesets?
Keeping what we have and then add commands for even more options...

...I'll be honest. I wouldn't hate it.
I would hate it. Smash's greatest strength as a party game (it's for more than just competitions) is its relative uniformity. And with a roster this big, there really is no choice but to avoid as much obscure and unique command inputs as possible.

The way it is now, even if I haven't played a character in a while and don't remember the details of what their moves are and how they work, I still know the list of moves that gets filled out by each character (Jab, 3 tilts, 3 smashes, 4 specials, 4 aerials, and 4 throws) and there's very few unique input combinations that I'm just going to forget about (Inkling's refill is probably the most outside the norm).
 
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#63
I would hate it. Smash's greatest strength as a party game (it's for more than just competitions) is its relative uniformity. And with a roster this big, there really is no choice but to avoid as much obscure and unique command inputs as possible.

The way it is now, even if I haven't played a character in a while and don't remember the details of what their moves are and how they work, I still know the list of moves that gets filled out by each character (Jab, 3 tilts, 3 smashes, 4 specials, 4 aerials, and 4 throws) and there's very few unique input combinations that I'm just going to forget about (Inkling's refill is probably the most outside the norm).
Well the thing about Inkling's Shield-B is that it's adding onto something. If some characters had less moves than others a la Pokken, I can see where the inconsistency argument comes in. But having a minimum amount of simple inputs that all characters have can still leave room for new moves added onto other inputs without alienating players too much. Plus, you always have the tips menu at the VERY least for special moves (though I'd personally go Rivals of Aether style and have a mini tutorial for every character).
 

Swordmaster102

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#64
A shorthop button would be APPRECIATED THOUGH.
A short hop button is completely unnecessary. You just glide your finger across the jump button lightly and it’ll come out always fine. Plus Nintendo added in the short hop aerial tech where you press attack and jump at the same time (which I also see as unnecessary and that tech hinders frame perfect fullhop aerials). Short hops are simple and shouldn’t be dumbed down further. A lot of people won’t see what I mean, but the dumbing down of tech like that just makes the game worse and can bring forth negative consequences.
 
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#65
A short hop button is completely unnecessary. You just glide your finger across the jump button lightly and it’ll come out always fine. Plus Nintendo added in the short hop aerial tech where you press attack and jump at the same time (which I also see as unnecessary and that tech hinders frame perfect fullhop aerials). Short hops are simple and shouldn’t be dumbed down further. A lot of people won’t see what I mean, but the dumbing down of tech like that just makes the game worse and can bring forth negative consequences.
You know that the frame perfect fullhop aerial thing could easily be solved by having a shorthop and full hop button and having the short hop aerial shortcut ONLY be shorthop button + attack, right?
 

Idon

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#66
A short hop button is completely unnecessary. You just glide your finger across the jump button lightly and it’ll come out always fine. Plus Nintendo added in the short hop aerial tech where you press attack and jump at the same time (which I also see as unnecessary and that tech hinders frame perfect fullhop aerials). Short hops are simple and shouldn’t be dumbed down further. A lot of people won’t see what I mean, but the dumbing down of tech like that just makes the game worse and can bring forth negative consequences.
It is completely unnecessary, along with a myriad number of options that Nintendo provides anyway.

The shorthop aerial shortcut doesn't allow for drifting, differently timed aerials, or no aerials at all. Its only function is a crutch that teaches bad habits and inhibits inputs that don't intend it.

Shorthopping itself isn't any sort of advanced tech and making it easier to perform isn't at all detrimental to the skill ceiling of the game. Whatever imaginary negative consequences that can come forth from a new player having a dedicated shorthop button is completely outweighed by that new player now having access to another tool to seamlessly add.
 

Swordmaster102

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#67
You know that the frame perfect fullhop aerial thing could easily be solved by having a shorthop and full hop button and having the short hop aerial shortcut ONLY be shorthop button + attack, right?
Yes, but my point is basically “why fix it if it was never broken?” And “fixing” it just brought forth issues. Having another button for jumping would just be more complicated.

It is completely unnecessary, along with a myriad number of options that Nintendo provides anyway.

The shorthop aerial shortcut doesn't allow for drifting, differently timed aerials, or no aerials at all. Its only function is a crutch that teaches bad habits and inhibits inputs that don't intend it.

Shorthopping itself isn't any sort of advanced tech and making it easier to perform isn't at all detrimental to the skill ceiling of the game. Whatever imaginary negative consequences that can come forth from a new player having a dedicated shorthop button is completely outweighed by that new player now having access to another tool to seamlessly add.
My stance on the matter is still that Nintendo over-complicated things and everything was fine with the previous smash titles. I’ll give you the benefit though of saying that having a shorthop button is fine as long as Nintendo doesn’t make it necessary (for say just make it an option in the control settings) and they remove the shorthop aerial shortcut.
 

Idon

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#68
Yes, but my point is basically “why fix it if it was never broken?” And “fixing” it just brought forth issues. Having another button for jumping would just be more complicated.
Many things have been fixed, but never broken. The entire controller remapping menu is that exemplified. Not to mention Nintendo already made accessability compromises to the shorthop aerial shortcut.

Having the option to remap one of two redundant jump or shield buttons input would change absolutely nothing except offering less experienced more options. Hell, the default wouldn't even change.

There is nothing to lose, nothing to break, and no reason to not include it.
 
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#70
Yes, but my point is basically “why fix it if it was never broken?” And “fixing” it just brought forth issues. Having another button for jumping would just be more complicated.
Actually, I'll side with Idon Idon here. If you add that short hop button, there would actually be no need for the shorthop attack shortcut anymore. They clearly added it because they standardized the jumpsquat to 3 frames, which isn't exactly a walk in the park to do consistently.
 

Swordmaster102

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#71
Actually, I'll side with Idon Idon here. If you add that short hop button, there would actually be no need for the shorthop attack shortcut anymore. They clearly added it because they standardized the jumpsquat to 3 frames, which isn't exactly a walk in the park to do consistently.
Exactly. That’s what I sorta stated above. I just wasn’t understanding precisely what would/could be the outcome of adding it in. For a moment I was believing that it would be a mandatory thing for playing, but it could just be an option in the settings. Therefore, the shorthop tech could be removed possibly.
 
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551
#72
Exactly. That’s what I sorta stated above. I just wasn’t understanding precisely what would/could be the outcome of adding it in. For a moment I was believing that it would be a mandatory thing for playing, but it could just be an option in the settings. Therefore, the shorthop tech could be removed possibly.
When you say "removed" though, do you mean turned off but still there, or do you mean no one can use it and you just remove it from the game entirely? I can't condone the latter, but the former sounds fine enough.
 

Swordmaster102

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
84
Location
Texas
NNID
Swordmaster102
#73
When you say "removed" though, do you mean turned off but still there, or do you mean no one can use it and you just remove it from the game entirely? I can't condone the latter, but the former sounds fine enough.
Well I mean, if they added a short-hop button, then the tech would be unnecessary correct? So I can see it from that standpoint, or if Nintendo rather keep it in but make it optional, that’s fine with me. My whole thing is pretty much just allowing me to play without the tech there. My apologies if I’ve caused some confusion.
 
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link2702

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
2,083
Location
Oklahoma
#74
Smash should stay like smash. While I’ve grown ok with the sf guest characters coming in with mechanics from their games blended into the smash mechanics, they’re still guest characters, and smash should not completely abandon the core mechanics of what has defined it.

I might be ok with a spin off of smash that has gameplay and mechanics more like that of traditional fighters, but under no circumstances should smash abandon its identity for that style of game.
 

JiggyNinja

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
176
#75
Well the thing about Inkling's Shield-B is that it's adding onto something. If some characters had less moves than others a la Pokken, I can see where the inconsistency argument comes in. But having a minimum amount of simple inputs that all characters have can still leave room for new moves added onto other inputs without alienating players too much. Plus, you always have the tips menu at the VERY least for special moves (though I'd personally go Rivals of Aether style and have a mini tutorial for every character).
Adding on is the exact thing I was complaining about. It's extra stuff I have to know about every individual character, which is extra overhead when you're having fun and shifting rapidly between characters. Things like Inkling's recharge throws a wrench in that because ink is such an important mechanic for it. If you don't know or remember the recharge input, you're playing with a handicap.

With just a couple mold breakers it's not so bad. It will be much more of a problem if that kind of stuff proliferates. More stuff is not free.

The same thing can be asked about adding a dedicated short hop button. Is the cost of adding a new function to the controller outweighed by the benefit? I think it is, because then you're not required to make precisely timed button presses. Not that I've ever had a problem short hopping the normal way since I learned in Melee, it's just nice to have options (especially since the SHA shortcut sucks so much).

How about Ryu and Ken (which I actually forgot about until just now)? Their command inputs are a huge deviation from the smash formula, is that cost worth it? In their case I think it is, but they're special because they come from an existing, established fighting franchise with an even longer history than Smash. It's entirely appropriate that they bring some of that with them. If Mortal Kombat ever got represented (we can dream), I would be very disappointed if they didn't have some Fatalities.
A short hop button is completely unnecessary.
Two redundant jump buttons are unnecessary.
Plus Nintendo added in the short hop aerial tech where you press attack and jump at the same time (which I also see as unnecessary and that tech hinders frame perfect fullhop aerials).
The only thing you're arguing here is that a dedicated short hop button would be better than the short hop attack marco that we currently have.

Which is a good argument that I agree with.
 

Christian_CAO

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
193
Location
Saint Augustine, Florida
#76
I would hate it. Smash's greatest strength as a party game (it's for more than just competitions) is its relative uniformity. And with a roster this big, there really is no choice but to avoid as much obscure and unique command inputs as possible.

The way it is now, even if I haven't played a character in a while and don't remember the details of what their moves are and how they work, I still know the list of moves that gets filled out by each character (Jab, 3 tilts, 3 smashes, 4 specials, 4 aerials, and 4 throws) and there's very few unique input combinations that I'm just going to forget about (Inkling's refill is probably the most outside the norm).
more power to you for enjoying it. Still, if I had even more to be able to do, I wouldn't hate it. It just means more to remember. Which isn't difficult.
Then again, complicated input commands aren't the only way to give us more to do. Simply giving moves variants by charging them or just pressing them would be more than enough to give some more options... Inkling with the holding b while shielding thing honestly opened the door for more neat ideas.
Like Necro'lics Utility button idea would be perfect with that command since inkling is already using it for that exact purpose.

Adding on is the exact thing I was complaining about. It's extra stuff I have to know about every individual character, which is extra overhead when you're having fun and shifting rapidly between characters. Things like Inkling's recharge throws a wrench in that because ink is such an important mechanic for it. If you don't know or remember the recharge input, you're playing with a handicap.

With just a couple mold breakers it's not so bad. It will be much more of a problem if that kind of stuff proliferates. More stuff is not free.
Having to know more about different characters isn't an actual "problem" though.
More stuff to learn isn't supposed to be free. But so long as it's simple (and this is smash so simple isn't an issue, if it were simpler this would be dive kick)
it would never be that daunting of a task.

I do think we should try to get more commands into Smash as a whole. In fact, I'm one of the biggest proponents of bringing back wavedashing in a single button form, and having varying wavedash distance be from tilt vs smash stick and for that same button, adding a sort of aerial wavedash when used in the air that works as a directional airdodge but with now invuln and you can attack during it, and that also could have varying distance too AND you can air dash into the ground to transition to wavedash for more distances, etc.

Another is a character specific "utility" button. Some characters in this game are complicated, and that's fine, but for the really weird things, you can use a utility button. Some examples I've come up with are desyncing the Ice Climbers with B, then you take control of only Popo, but holding down the utility button (probably a shoulder button), you take control of Nana only, and letting go will give control back to Popo. Another one is Corrin having human form and dragon form and switching between the two by hitting the utility button after attacks to continue combos while switching between them dynamically. Another is having all three Mii Fighters able to use all twelve of their special moves in battle, and switching through them with the utility button. It really could work to make more complicated characters feel a bit smoother control wise.

Aside from those, you also can give moves more purposes within themselves rather than make the controls more complicated. One example of a currently well done move that can be worked around many ways is Duck Hunt's can. You can attack it to reverse the trajectory, you can shoot it during grabs and hitstun, you can shoot the clay pigeon at it to have a cascade of hitboxes while also moving it forward. If more moves worked like that, it would definitely fit the "less is more" design, as you are making more emergent properties out of a few moves being interactable.
I'd enjoy the hell out of a "utility" button/ command XD (like I stated before, the ink recharge command seems like a good univsersal option)
Simple commands are fine...
I suppose what I really don't mind is just being able to do even more.
We don't need "complicated" commands to do that
 
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JiggyNinja

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
176
#77
Adding some extra thoughts here, I don't think Smash's control scheme is particularly simple compared to other fighters. By the time you unpack all the aerials, multiple jumps, tilts vs. smashes, parries, dodging, short hops, pivots, dashing vs. walking, and grabs, there's a fair bit of complexity in the controls that take getting used to. My sister still panics when she's knocked offstage and will do multiple Side Specials before she finally succeeds in getting an Up Special out (it pisses her off when I call her out on it every single time it happens), which is really annoying when :ultgreninja: is her fave and I have to hear Shadow Sneak over and over. And I'm pretty sure she never uses her double jump.

Instead of simplicity, I think what most people here are appreciating is actually Smash's uniformity. Every character fills out the same move list (1 jab, 3 tilts, 3 smashes, 4 specials, 5 aerials, a grab and 4 throws) and they all fill that same list out with their own unique moves (there is also the convention that only Specials can be a command grab). This makes it easier to pick up because once you've got the fundamentals down with one character, you can easily transfer that to any other character in the game. You'll have to learn the new character's moves, but you are still working off the same move list (I hope that makes sense).

Breaking uniformity disrupts that. Take parries for example. Sakurai made it a global change to replace perfect shielding, which kept the game uniform. Now imagine an alternate timeline where the change wasn't uniform. Mario can parry, but Luigi has to use the old perfect shielding. Peach can't do either, but Bowser can do both. Now you have to remember which of the 70+ characters is able to do which subset of the defensive options. Is it possible to remember that? Yes (ask any Pokemon player). Is it more difficult and a pain in the *** to do so? Also yes.
 

TheDuke54

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
295
#78
This game is hard enough to land good combos with simple control movements when the lag is awful online. I can't even fathom how annoyingly frusturating that would be like with complex Street Fighter kinds of button sequences.

Also when I do play, I just like to mess around a lot. And so that's not as easy to do with complex controls.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
551
#79
Adding some extra thoughts here, I don't think Smash's control scheme is particularly simple compared to other fighters. By the time you unpack all the aerials, multiple jumps, tilts vs. smashes, parries, dodging, short hops, pivots, dashing vs. walking, and grabs, there's a fair bit of complexity in the controls that take getting used to. My sister still panics when she's knocked offstage and will do multiple Side Specials before she finally succeeds in getting an Up Special out (it pisses her off when I call her out on it every single time it happens), which is really annoying when :ultgreninja: is her fave and I have to hear Shadow Sneak over and over. And I'm pretty sure she never uses her double jump.

Instead of simplicity, I think what most people here are appreciating is actually Smash's uniformity. Every character fills out the same move list (1 jab, 3 tilts, 3 smashes, 4 specials, 5 aerials, a grab and 4 throws) and they all fill that same list out with their own unique moves (there is also the convention that only Specials can be a command grab). This makes it easier to pick up because once you've got the fundamentals down with one character, you can easily transfer that to any other character in the game. You'll have to learn the new character's moves, but you are still working off the same move list (I hope that makes sense).

Breaking uniformity disrupts that. Take parries for example. Sakurai made it a global change to replace perfect shielding, which kept the game uniform. Now imagine an alternate timeline where the change wasn't uniform. Mario can parry, but Luigi has to use the old perfect shielding. Peach can't do either, but Bowser can do both. Now you have to remember which of the 70+ characters is able to do which subset of the defensive options. Is it possible to remember that? Yes (ask any Pokemon player). Is it more difficult and a pain in the *** to do so? Also yes.
See, the examples of uniformity you give are totally fine and I do agree with you... but at the same time... there has to be at least some specialties in input here and there. Like, let's just take a smaller example. Link and Young Link's two part FSmash and Piranha Plant's two part FTilt. These are additions to the baseline of moves, and yet I don't see many complaining about this. They also aren't specials either.
 

JiggyNinja

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
176
#80
See, the examples of uniformity you give are totally fine and I do agree with you... but at the same time... there has to be at least some specialties in input here and there. Like, let's just take a smaller example. Link and Young Link's two part FSmash and Piranha Plant's two part FTilt. These are additions to the baseline of moves, and yet I don't see many complaining about this. They also aren't specials either.
There's always been some small variation to the basic movelist (especially with jabs), but they've always been simple extensions such as charging or multi hits that just require additional button presses or holding the button down. But even those small variations do cause problems. Every time I play with my sister, I have to remind her that she can change the direction of Hydro Pump (when she even manages to successfully use it offstage), extend her Shadow Sneaks, and charge her Water Shurikens. That annoys both of us.

I'm not saying those small variations are bad, because they do add to the game. Just know that you have to balance that against the cost of having variations too.
 
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