Quick survey: Would you prefer Smash's simpler controls be replaced by more classic arcade fighting game controls?

Would you prefer simple Smash controls, or more complicated arcade fighter controls?


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#1
Posted the poll for you guys.

I need to understand this because of a huge reddit discussion about the new shorthop shortcut added in Patch 2.0.0 and people saying it makes things too simple and we should keep shorthop as something difficult to consistently do in order to preserve some form of "physical skill". Considering how basic a movement shorthop is, I am curious how many people would rather EVERYTHING in Smash be more difficult to do, similar to arcade fighters like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and the like.

I am super biased, and I want you all to know this, so feel free to agree or disagree with me and say why please. Thanks. :D
 

Idon

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#4
No of course people don't want that.
Smash as a whole is built on the foundation of "easy to learn, hard to master" and adding unnecessary hurdles to that isn't especially conducive to that mentality.

A shorthop button would be APPRECIATED THOUGH.
 
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#6
No of course people don't want that.
Smash as a whole is built on the foundation of "easy to learn, hard to master" and adding unnecessary hurdles to that isn't especially conducive to that mentality.

A shorthop button would be APPRECIATED THOUGH.
And yet in my discussions on reddit, there's quite a few people who would say the inclusion of a shorthop button would be a terrible thing, equivalent to an FPS auto aim. Basically, they think a shorthop button would cause the game to play itself optimally for you, since that's what auto aim does.

It's ridiculous, but someone actually said other fighting games' communities would actually be generally against simpler inputs. I would assume that by their logic, the inverse would welcome even more complicated inputs as a replacement to their simple inputs.

I'm trying to understand this viewpoint, which is why I want discussion on both sides.
 
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#7
And yet in my discussions on reddit, there's quite a few people who would say the inclusion of a shorthop button would be a terrible thing, equivalent to an FPS auto aim. Basically, they think a shorthop button would cause the game to play itself optimally for you, since that's what auto aim does.

It's ridiculous, but someone actually said other fighting games' communities would actually be generally against simpler inputs. I would assume that by their logic, the inverse would welcome even more complicated inputs as a replacement to their simple inputs.

I'm trying to understand this viewpoint, which is why I want discussion on both sides.
It's Reddit, they jump to conclusions and overreact far too often. I wouldn't put much thought into them.

But to answer the question, complicated or unessecary inputa would not work well at all for a platform fighter like Smash. The amount of missed inputs, or flat out whiffs would be very high.

In terms of shorthopping, I'm glat they made it easier. IMO, shorthopping was way too finicky with its timing, and it was hard for me to get it down. I prefer the more acessable ways that makes you short hop in Ultimate.

Oh, and wouldn't pressing both buttons at the same time technically be a (very simple) shorthop shortcut? I wouldn't see the need for a dedicated button, not because it would make the game more accessable, but because it would be kinda redundant.
 
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staindgrey

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#8
Absolutely not.

What makes Smash unique is its welcoming approach to controls and ability to create an environment where simply hitting the other character isn't your only goal. Literally every other fighter I play has a barrier to entry that involves learning what the **** you're doing, limiting who's willing to play. Smash? Smash anyone will play and know generally what they're doing.
 

Luigifan18

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#9
And yet in my discussions on reddit, there's quite a few people who would say the inclusion of a shorthop button would be a terrible thing, equivalent to an FPS auto aim. Basically, they think a shorthop button would cause the game to play itself optimally for you, since that's what auto aim does.

It's ridiculous, but someone actually said other fighting games' communities would actually be generally against simpler inputs. I would assume that by their logic, the inverse would welcome even more complicated inputs as a replacement to their simple inputs.

I'm trying to understand this viewpoint, which is why I want discussion on both sides.
They're idiots. There.
 
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#10
They're idiots. There.
The viewpoint is far too common to be boiled down to just idiocy. Plus, they really like going at it from a skill based perspective rather than making sure things control well, so I would assume they have a competitive bent more than other places. There has to be some reasoning behind it that is based more on controls rather than skill.
 

Uffe

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#11
I'm not sure why that is a problem when anybody can use it. I'm not going to use it because I already know how to short hop, but whatever.
 
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#12
The viewpoint is far too common to be boiled down to just idiocy. Plus, they really like going at it from a skill based perspective rather than making sure things control well, so I would assume they have a competitive bent more than other places. There has to be some reasoning behind it that is based more on controls rather than skill.
Yeah, but Reddit is really only a couple of steps above YT comment randoms
 

Luigifan18

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#13
The viewpoint is far too common to be boiled down to just idiocy. Plus, they really like going at it from a skill based perspective rather than making sure things control well, so I would assume they have a competitive bent more than other places. There has to be some reasoning behind it that is based more on controls rather than skill.
Sorry, I meant to say maschochism.
 

Mischiiii

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#18
The reason why i like smash is because of the simple button combinations. I think there is more to getting good than to master the short hop. Basically everyone can learn short hops in 1 week with maybe 15-30min a day. I don’t use the double jump button tech. I’ll keep my claw X Jump.

Smash should be easy to learn and hard to master and thats what it is. Even with short hop shortcuts.
 

osby

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#20
I played Tekken 5 in an arcade last week. It mostly sucked because I had to spend a good amount of coins just to understand which button does what. In Smash, I got the basic controls in minutes.

So, no, keep Smash controls.
 
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#21
Keep Smash the same. It’s a completely different fighting experience that shouldn’t borrow too many elements from its traditional relatives, otherwise it would be an unfocused mess like PlayStation All-Stars. A short hop button is hardly necessary as you could just quickly tap the jump button for the same effect, but if you’re really such a stickler for other fighting games and can’t seem to get past that, then try playing something else.
 
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Christian_CAO

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#22
But what's the point of two Nintendo fighting games?
One is a party game with fighting game mechanics and the other can be a fighting game with the flare of being a Nintendo product. It doesn't have to be the Ip clashing explosive and expansive pot of fanservice that is smash brothers. It just has to be it's own thing. It would also open the door to more fighting games in the Nintendo library other than smash. Which would be a good thing.

HAL is great and all but Sakurai is freelance and not technically part of Nintendo anymore. Giving another studio the task of creating a new fighting game... well they tried with ARMS but that was classic Nintendo trying to do Nintendo things by being different for the sake of showing off hardware gimmicks. ARMS is good but it's not great. It could have been great but sometimes simplicity doesn't equal a great experience. ARMS needs a revival but focus on a new game in general from some other development team would be more welcome in my opinion.

tldr
More fighting games to play other than smash on the switch would be great.
 
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#23
I'm a fighting game player dating back to SF II, and play about every fighter under the sun. I don't want Smash losing its identity to fit into the typical mold. Smash's control style works exceedingly well for what the game is about. That said, I have no problem using the classic inputs for Ken and Ryu, other than using Up+B for recovery Shoryukens.
 

FartyParty

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#24
No of course people don't want that.
Smash as a whole is built on the foundation of "easy to learn, hard to master" and adding unnecessary hurdles to that isn't especially conducive to that mentality.

A shorthop button would be APPRECIATED THOUGH.
And yet in my discussions on reddit, there's quite a few people who would say the inclusion of a shorthop button would be a terrible thing, equivalent to an FPS auto aim. Basically, they think a shorthop button would cause the game to play itself optimally for you, since that's what auto aim does.

It's ridiculous, but someone actually said other fighting games' communities would actually be generally against simpler inputs. I would assume that by their logic, the inverse would welcome even more complicated inputs as a replacement to their simple inputs.

I'm trying to understand this viewpoint, which is why I want discussion on both sides.
It's Reddit, they jump to conclusions and overreact far too often. I wouldn't put much thought into them.

But to answer the question, complicated or unessecary inputa would not work well at all for a platform fighter like Smash. The amount of missed inputs, or flat out whiffs would be very high.

In terms of shorthopping, I'm glat they made it easier. IMO, shorthopping was way too finicky with its timing, and it was hard for me to get it down. I prefer the more acessable ways that makes you short hop in Ultimate.

Oh, and wouldn't pressing both buttons at the same time technically be a (very simple) shorthop shortcut? I wouldn't see the need for a dedicated button, not because it would make the game more accessable, but because it would be kinda redundant.
On the point of short-hopping, the patch did add the ability to short-hop by pressing two jump buttons at once. It's low-key my favorite aspect of the patch.
 
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#25
More fighting games to play other than smash on the switch would be great.
Street Fighter, Blazblue, DBFZ, King of Fighters, Fatal Fury/Garou, Pocket Rumble, Blade Strangers, and now Guilty Gear and Mortal Kombat 11 coming in the spring? There are plenty of options.
 
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DeKu Skrub

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#26
Smash Bros. is a series that thrives on being easy to pick up(it was originally a party game, after all.) Making the controls more complex would help no one, it'd just jerk off elitists who wanna flex about how great they are. Smash is also such a far cry from your average fighting game that traditional controls would feel outlandish. On the topic of comparing this to auto aim, aiming in a FPS is something that requires many hours of skill to hone, and relies on you recognizing stuff on screen to adjust accordingly. Tapping a button quickly is not. This quick input is a nice QOL change that shouldve always been a feature. The two are barely comparable. People should be upset once things like spacing become easy, y'know something that requires actual skill. Regarding people who can't play other fighters cause "the controls suck", you can't walk into any game expecting them to be as intuitive as Smash.


Street Fighter, Blazblue, DBFZ, King of Fighters, Fatal Fury/Garou, Pocket Rumble, Blade Strangers, and now Guilty Gear and Mortal Kombat 11 coming in the spring? There are plenty of options.
Also, thanks for covering this, I was about to go off
 
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Sean²

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#29
But what's the point of two Nintendo fighting games?
I mean, what’s the point of all the different _____ vs. Capcom games? I’d say if anyone could take on a traditional Nintendo fighting game, it would be Capcom. I would play Nintendo vs. Capcom.
 

JiggyNinja

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#30
Posted the poll for you guys.

I need to understand this because of a huge reddit discussion about the new shorthop shortcut added in Patch 2.0.0 and people saying it makes things too simple and we should keep shorthop as something difficult to consistently do in order to preserve some form of "physical skill". Considering how basic a movement shorthop is, I am curious how many people would rather EVERYTHING in Smash be more difficult to do, similar to arcade fighters like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and the like.

I am super biased, and I want you all to know this, so feel free to agree or disagree with me and say why please. Thanks. :D
"Physical skill" is scrub-talk for "I don't like learning how to think and strategize, I want my rote memorization practice to be valued higher". Any idiot can practice a combo. It takes a hell of a lot more skill to learn how to win neutrals, stay in advantage, and escape disadvantage because those are not just contests of dexterity, but require good reads and decision-making. And that is hard.

Are Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat really more difficult than Smash? Or is it just illusory difficulty because people used to Smash aren't able to pull off the quarter-circle stuff well without a bunch of practice (just like they had to do with smash!). I had trouble playing Pokken at first because I was so used to how Smash worked.
And yet in my discussions on reddit, there's quite a few people who would say the inclusion of a shorthop button would be a terrible thing, equivalent to an FPS auto aim. Basically, they think a shorthop button would cause the game to play itself optimally for you, since that's what auto aim does.

It's ridiculous, but someone actually said other fighting games' communities would actually be generally against simpler inputs. I would assume that by their logic, the inverse would welcome even more complicated inputs as a replacement to their simple inputs.

I'm trying to understand this viewpoint, which is why I want discussion on both sides.
The viewpoint is far too common to be boiled down to just idiocy. Plus, they really like going at it from a skill based perspective rather than making sure things control well, so I would assume they have a competitive bent more than other places. There has to be some reasoning behind it that is based more on controls rather than skill.
It's stupid noise from stupid scrubs that don't want to think about what they do, and want to elevate physical dexterity above good decision making so it's easier for them to be considered "skilled". By that stupid logic, get rid of the smash stick and the grab button. You can shield grab, you don't need a button shortcut for it! In fact, get rid of the jump buttons altogether and force everyone to tap jump!

A dedicated shorthop button would be AMAZING. There's no need to have two redundant jump buttons. I can map X for short hop, and Y for normal jump.

Only a complete ****ing moron would compare a short hop button to auto aim. It doesn't play the game for you, because you still have to decide with kind of jump you want to do. The dedicated button just makes it easier to execute your decision without making a mistake.
 
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#31
"Physical skill" is scrub-talk for "I don't like learning how to think and strategize, I want my rote memorization practice to be valued higher". Any idiot can practice a combo. It takes a hell of a lot more skill to learn how to win neutrals, stay in advantage, and escape disadvantage because those are not just contests of dexterity, but require good reads and decision-making. And that is hard.

Are Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat really more difficult than Smash? Or is it just illusory difficulty because people used to Smash aren't able to pull off the quarter-circle stuff well without a bunch of practice (just like they had to do with smash!). I had trouble playing Pokken at first because I was so used to how Smash worked.



It's stupid noise from stupid scrubs that don't want to think about what they do, and want to elevate physical dexterity above good decision making so it's easier for them to be considered "skilled". By that stupid logic, get rid of the smash stick and the grab button. You can shield grab, you don't need a button shortcut for it! In fact, get rid of the jump buttons altogether and force everyone to tap jump!

A dedicated shorthop button would be AMAZING. There's no need to have two redundant jump buttons. I can map X for short hop, and Y for normal jump.

Only a complete ****ing moron would compare a short hop button to auto aim. It doesn't play the game for you, because you still have to decide with kind of jump you want to do. The dedicated button just makes it easier to execute your decision without making a mistake.
Well, you kinda said in a very... direct fashion what I've been thinking, but I feel I can't say this without just having them be defensive and not listening anymore.

Though I did bring up the "why not remove the grab button?" example to them. This was the exchange:

Me:

You do realize that having a designated short hop button would be a good thing for skilled players too right?
Them:

Not necessarily, even if it was a thing I would not use it, it promotes bad habits and allows you to be slower, im sure most pro level or at least competitive players would agree
Me:

One button doing one explicit thing makes things slower? I can't even. So why don't we get rid of the grab button and only use the shield+attack shortcut then, if the grab button slows things down for pros?

You are just talking nonsense now.
Them:

Well yeah, for the same reasons that I stated above, rolling your finger off of jump not only requires your finger to be on jump for a very short amount of time but it also puts your finger in position to attack almost instantly

Why would we get rid of the grab button? It doesnt slow things down for pros, shield grabs, while important are pretty trash in this game, im not sure what your point is
That was the last comment I had from them apparently. They seemed to miss the point I was making is that they were heavily against giving shorthop its own button as opposed to keeping it as the two button macro we now have. While at the same time wanting to keep the apparently slower macro instead of changing it to a single button just like regular jump lol.
 

Sari

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#32
No, Smash's controls are fine as is. I love fighting games like SF and KoF but I prefer Smash as its own thing.
 

JiggyNinja

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#34
Well, you kinda said in a very... direct fashion what I've been thinking, but I feel I can't say this without just having them be defensive and not listening anymore.
You say that as if a more gentle approach would get them to listen better. It won't. Stupid opinions are extremely hard to dislodge

My way skips right to the end and saves time.
, shield grabs, while important are pretty trash in this game
Well if you're not good enough to pull off a shield grab you don't deserve the have a shortcut for it!

And just holding a button is so low-skill. It'd be much more skillful if you have to mash the shield button in order to hold it up.

The best way to truly understand a position is to probe for its limits. That's why I keep bringing up these hypotheticals, I'm taking that idea of "physical skill" and running with it to the extreme. When you do that you end up with a game where the players spend more time fighting the interface instead of fighting each other. And I'm sure, on some level that the idiots won't admit, this is what they want. The UI is constant, so they can train themselves on how to do things and it will always work. The computer behaves the same way every time, so there's a consistent effort->reward payoff.

Playing against a human isn't like that though, because humans are much more messy and unpredictable. The human opponent can starting changing their strategy and that makes the idiot go OH MY GOD IT'S NOT WORKING ANYMORE WHAT DO I DO. So they demand a physical execution barrier to more normalize what they have to do.

They'd be better off playing bowling, golf, or competitive Tetris which have very different player interaction dynamics than a fighting game. They're no worse, they just emphasize different things.

But, you might say, we can do the same thing with my idea! If decision making is so much more skillful than dexterity, we can create a game focused entirely around decision making with no need for dexterity! You can take as much time as you need to make your decision, and so can the opponent! Can those kinds of games be fun to play?

Considering I just describe every turn-based game in existence, I hope I don't need to actually answer that rhetorical question.
 

Keglu

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#35
The Smash's Control System is what makes Smash a different (and amazing) game from the others, and I'm fine with that.
 
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kirby3021

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#37
I would personally love a dedicated short hop button - I can short hop consistently as is, but it took a bit of practice and I'm not opposed to making it easier.

And to answer the OP question no, I don't want Smash to have more complicated controls. I don't see adding complexity for complexity's sake adding anything to the experience of playing Smash.
 

Arthur97

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#38
I mean, what’s the point of all the different _____ vs. Capcom games? I’d say if anyone could take on a traditional Nintendo fighting game, it would be Capcom. I would play Nintendo vs. Capcom.
Well, usually crossing over with other stuff.
 

MG_3989

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#39
I would actually argue that Smash has a higher skill ceiling than any other fighting game BECASUE of it’s simple control. In any other fighting game if you learn the optimal combos, with the optimal character, and your muscle memory can input it, you’re automatically good pretty much. There’s a little bit of mindgaming but it’s more just about technical input

However with Smash once you master the controls there are so many more things to think about, so many more creative ways to play and move around, and actual individuality shows while you’re playing the game. Smash at it’s highest level has nothing to do with inputs and that’s what’s so skillful about it. Stick a great Street Fighter player and teach them all of the inputs and advanced tech of Smash and I bet they’d still get bodied by not just pros but high level players. It’s a different experience and I personally think Smash takes a more unique skill set and is more mentally taxing than the average fighting game

This is coming from somebody who was pretty damn good at UMvC3 and MK9 too. I understand how they work at a high level
 
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FartyParty

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#40
But, you might say, we can do the same thing with my idea! If decision making is so much more skillful than dexterity, we can create a game focused entirely around decision making with no need for dexterity! You can take as much time as you need to make your decision, and so can the opponent! Can those kinds of games be fun to play?

Considering I just describe every turn-based game in existence, I hope I don't need to actually answer that rhetorical question.
<SARCASM>But some turn-based games have a time limit for each turn!!</SARCASM>
 
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