Q&A thread ASK QUESTIONS HERE.

[Kokomaniac]

Regarding the uses of b reverse:

I think its useful to talk about wavebounce, b reverse, and turnaround b all at the same time because the uses overlap for these techniques. I'm going to assume that you know how to execute all three of these on a technical level and understand the differences in what they do. Just in case here is a thread that explains this well:
http://smashboards.com/threads/lucario-clinic-options-strategies-and-ats.336601/

Look under "glossary - non specific"

Basically WB reverses momentum, TB reverses the direction lucario is facing without reversing momentum and BR reverses both momentum and lucario's orientation.

There are tons of uses when you combine these techniques but I'll go through a couple just to get you started.

1. Avoiding juggles/edge guards
   1. Basically mixing these options up allows you to throw off your opponent when they are trying to juggle you. Because Lucario's mobility increases dramatically when you employ these techniques you can force your opponent to commit to an option and avoid it. Examples: http://youtu.be/-cYq_qUJRe0?t=2m6s, http://youtu.be/-cYq_qUJRe0?t=2m18s
2. Mixing up approaches
   1. Lucario's basic approach option is sh fair to dair. problem is that this is highly punishable if the opponent predicts it. So you have to have a lot of mix up options that force your opponent to react in different ways. shFair to wavebounce is a great option because it fakes the approach altogether and punishes the opponent really hard (aura sphere to the face) for trying to punish your approach with an attack. shfair to ff side b is another option which is usually a TB if you land the cross-up. Examples: http://youtu.be/uc4Ro78OzWA?t=3m12s, http://youtu.be/uc4Ro78OzWA?t=25s, http://youtu.be/uc4Ro78OzWA?t=1m12s,
   2. You can also TB and land with the ASC on top of your opponent which punishes an opponent who overuses shield. You can usually get a shdair or a backwards shfair to nair out of this. Example: http://youtu.be/ERYPW4wdbzQ
3. Mindgames, spacing and camping with the AS
   1. This is more of a broad category than the other categories. Basically you can use TB, BR and WB to throw your opponent off and make them have a difficult time figuring out what your next move will be. If you mess up your opponents spacing then they will wiff attacks which lets you punish their mistakes. example: http://youtu.be/uc4Ro78OzWA?t=3m3s I b reversed into a semi-fully charged AS which pushed Ally back far enough to cause him to wiff the ftilt which yielded a free fsmash.

For more information, I think the thread I cited at the beginning of this post does a great job explaining options thoroughly.

Fantastic post, sir, I thank you.

 

[ravemaster47]

I need to work on my lucario game. I know WiFi is bad, but can someone teach me some more and maybe what to do in certain match ups?

 

[DrSoussou]

I need to work on my lucario game. I know WiFi is bad, but can someone teach me some more and maybe what to do in certain match ups?

Any MU in particular?

 

[ravemaster47]

I need a lot more help in the mk matchup but also the pika and oli matchup as well. I thee a bit more confident in most other MUs.

 

[Konrad-QD]

I need a lot more help in the mk matchup but also the pika and oli matchup as well. I thee a bit more confident in most other MUs.

Based on your first post I'm guessing you want someone to spar with you on wifi and explain the matchups there. I can't do this until August 17th because I am traveling until then and do not have a wii. Message me after that date and I can try to help you out a bit. Otherwise let me link you to the matchups thread for lucario:

http://smashboards.com/threads/sing...tory-mario-will-brb-saving-a-princess.221578/

MK matchup:
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/matchup-rediscussion-export-metaknight.271127/
Oli:
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/matchup-rediscussion-export-olimar-1.260707/

As for Pikachu, honestly its a relatively easy matchup for lucario. Pikachu can't camp you because you can easily out camp him with aura spheres (charge the AS so that it can cut through the thunder jolts). Lucario's fair cuts through thunder jolts as well so you can attack him when he jumps to shoot thunder jolts without fear of being zapped. Pikachu can't kill lucario easily unless lucario is bad at SDIing out of dsmash - learn to SDI out of that.

I'm not sure what specific questions you might have but the general matchup information can be found in the thread that I cited.

 

[ravemaster47]

Thanks. I will get to reading. I would normally play with my crew, but I want to surprise them at our next event.

 

[Konrad-QD]

hey Lucarios! can you guys specify movement patterns you like to use? I don't know if everyone necessarily has these but I thought it would be nice to have them as practice =) for example I like ASC to shfair to wavebounce AS to dash to roll to pivot grab etcet? If you have an explanation for why you use a particular pattern I would love to hear why?

 

[DrSoussou]

One of my favorite strings is really easy to perform and works best on heavies starting at low percents, preferably on the far end of a stage so you have some room to work. Starts with FP (fish for the grab or cross-up with a landing FP after short-hop): FP->FP->shFair->ffNair->shFair->ffNair->run past, pivotgrab->backthrow offstage->shFair->shFair->gimp. the only part thats not really guaranteed is the running pivotgrab, but after the first half of the string your opponent is likely to try to find a way out defensively. this option beats both their attempt to hold shield or spot-dodge your next move.

A lot of good strings also come from jab cancels at mid percents. J1->J2->cancel->J1->J2->cancel->grab->pummel->uthrow->follow-up. try reacting to their DI and reading their airdodge. you can do a lot of things from Uthrow at mid%, like a basic shFair->Nair or Uair frametrap (my preference).

I wouldn't say I have any movement patterns as long as your example because not that much time goes by without me ever having to respond to my opponent.

 

[ravemaster47]

I play a very campy style with my lucario. I only bthrow or fthrow to get them off stage, then follow with fairs and a nair. I don't like approaching. Lol.

 

[DrSoussou]

I wish i could do that. when i dont know what to do my fingers do SHFair...
i guess offense is my defense

 

[Meta651]

More offensive lucario here also.

I like to do Utilts strings > grab>uthrow> Fair and the Nair or Dair

Also in low % jab>jab>FP>fair>nair
or out of the FP>grab>Fthrow>Ftilt

the last one im not sure but i like that strings

 

[DrSoussou]

More offensive lucario here also.

I like to do Utilts strings > grab>uthrow> Fair and the Nair or Dair

Also in low % jab>jab>FP>fair>nair
or out of the FP>grab>Fthrow>Ftilt

the last one im not sure but i like that strings

utilt is legit, especially on fastfallers. one thing i've always wanted to perfect is being able to read their DI out of it and score a grab, but its harder than it looks. sometimes the only way to do it safely is to buffer a retreating pivot-grab out of the last utilt, and they could always just jump away if they didnt waste it trying to escape the lock.

im not sure if that last one works either, fthrow most likely has too much knockback to be followed by ftilt. use Dthrow or Uthrow

 

[Konrad-QD]

Thanks for the input! I like practicing movement patterns - not necessarily using them in game but coming up with a scenario in my head like "if I charge the aura sphere on the ground my opponent will probably jump in the air to be safe, so I can catch him with a sh fair, but if that misses I can get away with a wavebounce and punish their attempt to hit me after my fair with AS. If they shield the AS I can try to roll and pivot grab ..." etcet. So then I just have that pattern to practice against a CPU or in training mode. Its not really a combo... more like a set of choices I can imagine making in a real match as I attempt to read my opponent and cover his options. Anyone else ever do this sort of thing or am I just being strange?

 

[Masonomace]

hey Lucarios! can you guys specify movement patterns you like to use? I don't know if everyone necessarily has these but I thought it would be nice to have them as practice =) for example I like ASC to shfair to wavebounce AS to dash to roll to pivot grab etcet? If you have an explanation for why you use a particular pattern I would love to hear why?

Specific movement patterns i find doing when i don't pay attention is:

• Launching someone off screen, I'll full hop towards their direction ASC, to a landing dodge roll towards them and B-reverse ASC to face them still charging.
• Launching someone off screen, I'll dash and dodge roll until i'm well spaced with stage control and B-reversal ASC for a camp setup.
• "Feeling" your opponent out, I like to dash at them and SHD-air to cancel my movement and try to fake 'em out. If it's not even useful during a match, i spam SHD-airs after i take a stock off to pump me up..
• Sometimes i mix up SHD-airs with dash walking (idk what it's called) and just wait out for your opponent to make a move and punish with a pivot grab or dash danced grab.

 

[ravemaster47]

I need to remember all these abbreviations. I keep forgetting what it is called @.@

 

[Meta651]

What mindgames or tricks do you have??

Personally I like doing Bairs but to mix up and surprise kill sometimes I charge a AS and I jump with my back against my opponent like im doing a Bair but i do a B-reverse FCAS, in high % it works very well

 

[ravemaster47]

I don't really know. I think i go auto pilot after a while.

 

[Masonomace]

What mindgames or tricks do you have??

Not very mind games, only a couple like:​

• SHD-airs for fake-outs or dash walking/dancing after a D-throw watching their DI then react
• ASC or B-reverse ASC on ground to predict rolls and let them DI out of it on purpose, watch where they go and react
  idk these aren't really mind games =(

I have lots of tricks/trixies that i don't feel like talking about thou-- jokes let's start with just recovery tricks/options.​

​

Recovering: ​

• Playing against a character who thrives on your FCAS's? No sweat use your FCAS by Momentum Canceling with F-air/D-air and Reverse and/or B-reverse FCAS to look towards the off screen pushing yourself back a bit to reduce momentum (Note: Doing this puts you in a good position floating back to the stage, B-air your way back)
• Don't feel like wasting a FCAS for that little effort? No problem, instead Double Team for even better momentum canceling that's almost like G&W Bucket Braking after your aerial input during Hitstun
  
• Are you tired of annoying projectiles/characters hitting you while you recover? Simply time your DT(Double Team) and reverse it to gain a huge amount of slide distance towards the stage. ALWAYS Reverse your DTs when recovering towards the stage. If you don't reverse them, at least 80% you won't recover back
  
• Wanna be aggressive with range? Use some Force palm projectile to force your way in if they try to approach oncoming clashing/trading. I'd only try this if you still have a double jump to spare, that or you're really confident with Extremespeed
  
• Generic Lucario Tactic: Use any lip of any stage that is clingable and ES(Extreme Speed) to that stage lip like:, , , then wait until you can Wall jump safely
• Hard to do but ledge cancelling with your ES refreshes a double jump and your ES once more for extreeeeeeme recovery

If you enjoyed my Recovery tricks/trixies approve my message for more upcoming tricks ​

 

[ravemaster47]

I need to practice wall cling. I got kod by yoshis island because I tried to wal kling and just hit the wall and fell.

 

[Konrad-QD]

masonomace is the master of ledge tricks / down b tricks =D

most of my mind games involve WB, BR and TB in the air. I like holding my charge for a long time instead of shooting it and forcing my opponent to do something other than hold shield. I like to see how they tend to react in that situation and then punish their habits.

In certain matchups I like to recover by landing with the ASC onto my opponent like trela does here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6owcwjkHjy4 since a lot of top players tend to react OOS.

 

[Konrad-QD]

are there any unexplored options you feel lucario has that you don't see people use? I've wondered about using side B in the air as a long range edge guard thing - I wonder if you can frame trap with it in the air into something like nair. I've also thought about going under the stage on smashville as lucario against mk's that are eager to chase me down there and shoot a FCAS to punish someone (probably a hyper aggressive mk like nairo style) who chases me under the stage and simultaneously propel myself closer to the other ledge (highly risky I know but I want to experiment with it to see if it can be useful).

 

[ravemaster47]

Anyone feel like coaching me a bit in WiFi?

 

[Konrad-QD]

I could in a couple days but not today

 

[Masonomace]

are there any unexplored options you feel lucario has that you don't see people use? I've wondered about using side B in the air as a long range edge guard thing - I wonder if you can frame trap with it in the air into something like nair.

i would love to see lucario's use FP flame from their sideB WB'd so its safe edge guarding without having to overextend too far to harass offstage even trela flashes with FCAS is good too n what not. F-air+Footstools and Not D-air in case they DI well and instead use falling B-air or even a good sweetspotted N-air for stage spike if they don't Tech off the stage. Wanna see Double Team punishes more at ledge get-up attacks and reverse it for FD lip to walljump to B-air/U-air/B-reversed ASC or something flashy and safe.

 

[Angiance]

Force Palm isn't quick enough for edge-guard air control like F-Air/D-Air.

 

[Konrad-QD]

Force Palm isn't quick enough for edge-guard air control like F-Air/D-Air.

But it has more range?

Also I'm wondering whether we know the optimal height for dair in terms of canceling lag into the ground. I believe if we shfair there is room left in our jump only for one dair unless we use our second jump. However, isn't there some variability in regards to what height we choose to dair? I used to dair immediately after fair but I saw some vids that make think dair is safer closer to the ground so we can try to jab or grab or fp right after. Thoughts? Anyone have any specific info regarding this?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd-0vEfge2M check out around 20 seconds into this video to see what I mean.

 

[Angiance]

Force Palm's vertical reach, and speed isn't like F-Air's, where Lucario makes a wall with it giving him good air control. Following up F-Air with D-Air normally is safer.

 

[Masonomace]

But it has more range?

Yes. yes it does . Not only does a WB'd FP flame have more range, it's flame knockback is the kind of launching we want for solid edgeguarding over F-air/D-air. F-air is too low knockback and D-air can be SDI'able and DI's so commonly upward. Weak flame wouldn't be much knockback but a stronger flame will do. F-air strings to a FP flame puts them in a worse place than D-air would do unless you're so far out the blast zone is immenint.

However, isn't there some variability in regards to what height we choose to dair? Thoughts? Anyone have any specific info regarding this?

The Ideal height we should be choosing to d-air is lucario's height.

My thoughts on that? We can double jump at this point if it doesn't seem safe at all, and if you have no jump, and coming down to lucario height, you Dair to go for a Infinite Second Jump (ISJR) to gtfo or mixup from here. Or we can aerial dodge at this point after d-air with or without FF and dodge roll away safely, or go blueballs deep and go for a frame 1 FP grab. Any way it's almost pretty safe with all the options

 

[Angiance]

Force Palm Fire's start-up time keeps it from being viable edge-guarding at top level play. Edge-guarding is speed, and control; something Force Palm Fire isn't.

 

[DarkDragoon]

So uhh...I play this game again. What kind of advances in Lucario's metagame have their been since like...2009/2010?

Basically, back when I played last, Jab->Jab->Force Palm->FP->FP etc. was the cool thing to do, and it definitely looks to me like it is no longer considered effective. How do they escape it? DI away? Do they even have to Smash DI?

Is most of Lucario's game still zoning with FAir and AS, then when you land a FAir or get in you do FAir->NAir or FAir->DAir?

I got 7th at a local playing my 2009 strats with my 2013 Melee Sheik spacing (after I stopped trying to wavedash and L Cancel). Took a couple stocks off of Tyrant and almost had an upset with a pretty good local player. So maybe I was doing something right?

A lot of these threads look dated around here though, so who knows. I've just been watching Trela videos trying to download his moves. I guess that's the way to go?

-DD

 

[AlexoftheAura]

First of all, welcome back.

With jab->jab->fp most people how to sdi the jabs so they don't get caught in the force palm or simply mash out of the actual chaingrab part of it. There are also a few characters with fast enough aerials to hit you before the force palm comes out if they see it coming or you're a little too slow.

When you land a fair nair is still always an option, especially at low percents where you can follow up after it if you attack out of a short hop. Dair is also good but doesn't really offer any follow ups. Fair->FP is also a thing now.

Congrats on wrecking **** after 3/4 years.

 

[DrSoussou]

What mindgames or tricks do you have??

Personally I like doing Bairs but to mix up and surprise kill sometimes I charge a AS and I jump with my back against my opponent like im doing a Bair but i do a B-reverse FCAS, in high % it works very well

The most successful "mindgames" are created through conditioning and mixups, anything that generally forces your opponent to expect/read one action while you punish them for it with another. Lucario's best applications of this, imo, are AS and jab follow-ups. AS is technical and its applications are self-explanatory (face/move in different directions while charging and firing to become unpredictable), but properly diversifying your jab portfolio requires more of a complete understanding of mixups and mindgames.

viable things you can do after Jab2: Jab3, cancel (buffer "down" input) -> J1+J2, standing grab/dash grab (react to opponent SDI), FP, Dtilt, Ftilt, Fsmash (read spotdodge), fire AS (read spotdodge or jump).

pick one or two of these as your "go-to" options and soon your opponent will choose the reaction that beats it the next time you connect with J1. Counter this by never using the same follow-up too many times in a row, and by using a follow-up the third or fourth time that BEATS the defensive option you're forcing your opponent into the first and second time.

for example, you connect with jab twice on your opponent's first stock and follow up with jab 3 both times. you take their stock. while respawning, they plan to hold shield against your jab so that J3 doesn't connect. you connect on their second stock with J1, and follow up with FP or grab because you know they will be planning to shield your J3. These are the basic rock-paper-scissors of brawl metagame as they apply to Lucario's jab.

Recovering:

• Playing against a character who thrives on your FCAS's? No sweat use your FCAS by Momentum Canceling with F-air/D-air and Reverse and/or B-reverse FCAS to look towards the off screen pushing yourself back a bit to reduce momentum (Note: Doing this puts you in a good position floating back to the stage, B-air your way back)
• Don't feel like wasting a FCAS for that little effort? No problem, instead Double Team for even better momentum canceling that's almost like G&W Bucket Braking after your aerial input during Hitstun
• Are you tired of annoying projectiles/characters hitting you while you recover? Simply time your DT(Double Team) and reverse it to gain a huge amount of slide distance towards the stage. ALWAYS Reverse your DTs when recovering towards the stage. If you don't reverse them, at least 80% you won't recover back
• Wanna be aggressive with range? Use some Force palm projectile to force your way in if they try to approach oncoming clashing/trading. I'd only try this if you still have a double jump to spare, that or you're really confident with Extremespeed
• Generic Lucario Tactic: Use any lip of any stage that is clingable and ES(Extreme Speed) to that stage lip like:, , , then wait until you can Wall jump safely
• Hard to do but ledge cancelling with your ES refreshes a double jump and your ES once more for extreeeeeeme recovery

Bad news: only your first bullet point is actually a viable option. Good news: its a great tip that every Lucario needs to incorporate into their recovery.

Double team is never really a safe recovery option. The counter frames are not exact enough to be reliable (you're betting your stock on it, so it needs to be), if it misses you end up stuck in the air with no momentum back towards the stage, and you're in a perfect position to be gimped. Even if it DOES counter then you have to be high enough above the stage for the counterattack not to send you underneath the edge, you have to remember to reverse it or you have almost no chance of recovering at all, and you have so much ending lag that unless you immediately catch the edge your opponent will likely react and just hit you back off to continue the edge-guard.

Yes, FP's aura flame is a very large hitbox in the air, but NO it is not a safe aerial attack. it has a stupid amount of startup and ending lag, doesn't actually beat many moves, and is a worse option in almost every respect than using back-air to recover.

Yes you are right about wall-cling being a safe option when recovering on many stages, but Battlefield actually doesn't have a clingable wall (you can only wall-jump from the sides under the ledge) and you forgot about Yoshi's Island! Its one of Lucario's best stages simply due to wall-cling recovery.

Lol, ES cancel is only good for flash and is more likely to get you killed than ExtremeHog.

 

[Masonomace]

If you don't like reading, then TL;DR

Bad news: only your first bullet point is actually a viable option. Good news: its a great tip that every Lucario needs to incorporate into their recovery.

Double team is never really a safe recovery option. The counter frames are not exact enough to be reliable (you're betting your stock on it, so it needs to be), if it misses you end up stuck in the air with no momentum back towards the stage, and you're in a perfect position to be gimped. Even if it DOES counter then you have to be high enough above the stage for the counterattack not to send you underneath the edge, you have to remember to reverse it or you have almost no chance of recovering at all, and you have so much ending lag that unless you immediately catch the edge your opponent will likely react and just hit you back off to continue the edge-guard.

• Definitely true. DT is risky for any offensive edgeguarding against you like MK or marth, I mainly wanted to share DT as a part of helping recover with all/any projectile(s) used effectively off-stage to gimp you/kill you. Obvious projectiles to DT would be such like falco lasers or Zelda Din fires, stuff that is long-range and is great harass.

Yes, FP's aura flame is a very large hitbox in the air, but NO it is not a safe aerial attack. it has a stupid amount of startup and ending lag, doesn't actually beat many moves, and is a worse option in almost every respect than using back-air to recover.

• Agreed. I wanted to debate about WB'd FPs edgeguarding but this is about recovery so Agreed

Yes you are right about wall-cling being a safe option when recovering on many stages, but Battlefield actually doesn't have a clingable wall (you can only wall-jump from the sides under the ledge)

• Teechnically, Battlefield does have 2 wallclingable areas on each face/side. But nothing much really mentioning about them as far as usefulness goes xD. The up-side-down building under BF is clingable and can walljump off of. Only has two legit useful things for clinging to it if you wanna time someone out, but if you don't cling correctly it looks pretty bad. Specific areas on the slants on BF are clingable but take too much effort and time into try to cling at all.

and you forgot about Yoshi's Island! Its one of Lucario's best stages simply due to wall-cling recovery.

• >_< I didn't include it since i assumed I everyone knew YI+Cario = secks . Just that sometimes the walls can be unfortunate sometimes... YI Wallcling+walljump B-air too good~

 

[Masonomace]

Alsoooo, I probably asked this before but what is your thoughts for DTD Dr.Souss ? (Double Team Di) [Survival DI with F-air/D-air/U-air then using DT like i said earlier similar to GaW's BucketBraking]

Is it just terrible or something? I see no other cario's do it, due to too many frames for momentum cancel input or what? I'd like feedback on this with solid information if you could please

Cus other than that, i'll just stick to F-air then D-air for MC

 

[DrSoussou]

I've never tried it in game tbh, so I can't give you any real data other than what I know about standard momentum cancel. Both bucket braking and the case of this theoretical DI require you have to perform an aerial first (namely Fair for Luc) anyway, so I can't see this as any better than Fair -> Dair to halt momentum unless it operates exactly like G&W bucket. I'm pretty sure it doesn't, and you can still carry momentum from launch during the counter animation. However, it can't be any more difficult than bucket braking to perform so it should be easy to test. Like you said, you don't see it in high level play so I assume there's nothing to be gained.

Lol i knew about the little crystal castle thing on Battlefield but it never occurred to me to try to use it in the last seconds of a match to time someone out. I'd be super salty if i lost that way.

 

[Masonomace]

I've done it many numerous times and has saved me from some vertical launches. It's not so effective for Horizontal launches like Fox Dsmashes, but it can still do. DTD is at most almost eggsactly like bucket braking for GaW. It's scary how similar they are. Bucket Braking inspired me to Double Team DI but w/e I tried doing a guesstimate of frame data, and frame wise it's horrible due to Double Team's 81(82) frames complete, but the momentum cancel it gives seems soooo good.

 

[Masonomace]

what is your thoughts for DTD?(Double Team Di) [Survival DI with F-air/D-air/U-air then using DT

​

My answer I've come up with:​

• F-air + D-air having roughly 58 frames has better frame data over F-air + DT / D-air + DT. Sadly F-air + D-air doesn't fully MC, where as F-air + D-air x2 almost fully MC's if not completely. This string is roughly 90(?) frames with a lot of input. Compared to D-air+DT roughly 112(?) frames, aside from it looking horrible to try the reward of D-air + DT is D-air's natural built-in MC that makes it a good aerial to DI with along with DT's good start-up on frame 6 (the exact start-up frame data as GaW's Oil Panic at frame 6). DT is worse than Bucket Braking by at least 30 completion frames but I still find it's highly impressive surviving horizontal or vertical momentum.
  
  Conclusion (unless someone proves different otherwise i'd like that thanks) : D-air + DT is good well-rounded Special DIMC for lucario's weight-class to help him live a lot longer % to AB when being launched with vertical momentum. F-air or D-air with a fast DJ + F-air / D-air input helps a lot more with horizontal momentum.

 

[Masonomace]

Got a new question guys. I (We) know that Lucario's DT scales better from AB and can stale, but:

• Can/Does DT's knock-back and damage vary from the strength of the attack countered?
  
  Edit: Nvm sorry -_- I found the answer from this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-lucario-starter-guide-and-minor-database.239748/

 

[Masonomace]

New Question: Is N-air's front hurtbox stronger than N-air's back hurtbox or are they the same damage knock-back and hit-stun before spinning?

 

[BRE]

How do you lag cancel in brawl with marth? Is it buffering?