PS2 or no PS2

[Alex Strife]

Thinking about doing Ktar-like stage additions...need thoughts on this.

 

[HelpR]

the main argument against PS2, is that there are many segments that are intrusive as hell. Basically, the stage changes are so dramatic that they effect the game incredibly

The main arguments for PS2 being legal, is that the way it influences the match isnt through damage, or regular hazards, but just changing the way the stage is played on.

It's also one of the few stages any character happens to be comfortable in outright, as each character in the game has his or her own problem with the stage, but usually, can also find a nifty little thing they can do on this stage too, making this one of the few stages that at first glance, doesn't seem to be outright bad for any character but not great either.

It's intrusive as hell, and the changes are dramatic, but these changes are all predictable, and will rarely change the outcome of a fight unless one of the participants doesn't know how to fight on the stage.

In which case it's their own fault for not learning how. I believe this stage should be legal.

Oh, also, MK cant glide under the stage, so planking becomes that much harder, and the wind segment lasts for what, 15 seconds?

 

[D1]

NO PS2.

10Sonys.

 

[Inui]

Nope, it's ********.

 

[Alex Strife]

I understand you think it is ******** but it is something I wanted to talk about rather than just say its "bad". I have no problem not putting it in my stagelist but i want to talk about it.

 

[teh_spamerer]

I'm all for PS2 fighting games replacing Brawl tournaments.

 

[PepsiMista]

I think that the PlayStation 2 is a remarkable console.

 

[B0NK]

No, the wind alone is too much.

In my opinion anything that completely changes the physics of the game should be banned. And it's just as campy as PS1 anyway -____-

Basically a PS1 with transformation that give HUGE buffs to aerial based character. Who wants to stay on the ground when there is ice, conveyor belts, and wind??? And the only normal transformation in ground is just the same old campy, lets never approach type of gameplay from PS1.

As much as I love that my character doesn't slide on ice, I say no. WAY too drastic changes on the physics of the game, no other legal stages really do that.

Also barely anyone will be using it as much as you may want anyways >_>

 

[Linkshot]

Campy is not a valid argument.
The entire Brawl metagame revolves around camping. No matter what you do to restrict it, it's still the most prominent strategy, so there's no harm in "buffing" it, either.

I honestly don't understand why you guys still think this is a fun game at competitive levels, or why you even use more than 2 stocks..or not just play on Time Mode.

On the note of PS2, based on all arguments I've ever heard, I'm inclined to believe this is the most truly balanced stage in the game.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh look why did I find this thread.


http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11312692&postcount=276
If you can read that and not think that PS2 being at least a counterpick is a good idea, then you are probably using very anticompetitive reasoning, and doing what you prefer, not what is best for the overall competitive environment of the game.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=88526
If you can read that and not think that PS2 belongs as a starter, then you have a very different definition of starter/neutral than most smart people.

All things considered, there was and still is no reason to ban PS2. "I don't like it" is not a reason. It does not lead to anticompetitive playing environments. In fact, it is one of the most fair stages in the game, as well as one of the most competitively adaptive (i.e. it forces the player to adapt to the stage without being overly polar or degenerate) stages in the entire game. You'd be hard pressed to find a better starter.

TL;DR: PS2 should be a starter stage.

 

[Inui]

I clicked this when I saw BPC made a post because I knew it would make me laugh, and not because of how ******** it would be, but because he would actually believe what he wrote.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hey, you know, being right ain't so bad. You should try it sometime. ^_^
Alternatively:
Being able to actually debate and use logic ain't so bad. You should try it sometime.

Seriously, there's not one good reason as to why Pokemon Stadium 2 should be banned. If I could drill this into even the most ******** heads on AiB, I can do it here too. Really. Read the first post linked there, and then find me one good reason as to why adding PS2 to the stagelist is a bad idea.

 

[_Yes!_]

um...ps2 is awesome when frozen. The ice stage is annoying/stupid. The electric stage is also annoying/stupid. The air stage is fun but stupid. The ground stage is meh.

You shouldn't have to play navigating the stage the entire match to avoid dying.

Also lol this will never be legal here.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

um...ps2 is awesome when frozen. The ice stage is annoying/stupid. The electric stage is also annoying/stupid. The air stage is fun but stupid. The ground stage is meh.

You shouldn't have to play navigating the stage the entire match to avoid dying.

Also lol this will never be legal here.

Oh look, a collection of ridiculous value calls that should make absolutely no difference. Annoying and stupid? ICs and FD are annoying and stupid, plz ban one of them. Or both of them. Olimar is annoying and stupid. Jigglypuff is annoying and stupid. You can't ban things because they're annoying or stupid, not only because what each person considers annoying or stupid can change (literally, it could be anything! Pick a character, you'll find people who consider them annoying or gay. Pick a stage, a stage/character combination, a tactic, anything, someone will find it ********).

Furthermore, the idea that you shouldn't have to navigate the stage without dying is not only ridiculously misguided (see: at least two stages that are legal almost everywhere, several others), it's also a piece of rhetoric which is sorely misplaced on a stage where it applies about as well as on PS1, Frigate Orpheon, Delfino, or basically any stage with any considerable movement whatsoever. I'm in fact fairly convinced it boils down to "stage movement is cheap". Come on, give me a reason we shouldn't have to play around the stage that doesn't come down to that.

Come on guys, I can do this all day. Stop being stupid scrubs, and stop trying to force TOs to be just as scrubby.

 

[_Yes!_]

Do it all day, but you're still a random, and no one here takes you seriously. This isn't allisbrawl; we have brains...And yes that's a valid argument since you've decided to be a prick about this discussion, I will as well.

By the way I didn't read anything you said besides the last line, because I can put money on it not being worth my time.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Do it all day, but you're still a random, and no one here takes you seriously. This isn't allisbrawl; we have brains...And yes that's a valid argument since you've decided to be a prick about this discussion, I will as well.

By the way I didn't read anything you said besides the last line, because I can put money on it not being worth my time.

I know you have brains. Which is why I kind of expect better than "meh, I don't like it" as a reason to ban something. Because it really isn't. If it was, do you really think MK would still be legal? Because there's a fairly large swath of the smash community who really hates MK.

And protip: if you want Axel to actually listen to you (read: accept rhetoric which has been shown to be faulty time and time again over reasonable logical arguments), you should probably try to refute a few of my points. Or, at the very least, give a good, solid reason as to why the stage should be banned.

 

[_Yes!_]

Don't know who Axel is, and I probably don't care. Your "points" are just your opinions, which hold no weight in this region. It's not up to us to prove why it shouldn't be legal, but up to you to prove why it should, which is fruitless since we like to play this game with less bull**** stages. Characters are not involved in this, otherwise every stage except battlefield sucks.

 

[HelpR]

>> can we make this more of a debate and less of a flame fest?

Like I said earlier, I believe this stage should be a CP , I already stated my reasons above why, can anyone give me some good reasons as to why it shouldn't be a CP?

Basically a PS1 with transformation that give HUGE buffs to aerial based character. Who wants to stay on the ground when there is ice, conveyor belts, and wind??? And the only normal transformation in ground is just the same old campy, lets never approach type of gameplay from PS1.

Ok, good point. But I have to make the argument that most stages adhere to the flip side, particularly FD, SV, and BF are all stages that assist grounded characters considerably, and I've looked into how long each transformation lasts, and here's the approximation:

Wind: 30 seconds

electricity: 40 seconds

ice: 45 seconds

ground: 45 seconds

Overall, this stage spends a minute between each transformation in it's neutral position, so in a 8 minute match, it's standard to expect 5 transformations, making up about 3 minutes of the 8 minute mach.

Also, guess what, each of these transformations forces the players to have a different reaction, specifically

Wind: If you're an aerial character, retreat upwards, spend the next 10 seconds above the blast zone, if you're grounded, just chill on the ground, and wait for a little bit. cant do anything, but it's a 30 second transformation. Very uncommon for any combat to occur here, as it's rather risky.

electricity: Either camp center, or stay on the ledge waiting for it to end, characters with projectiles are very strong here if they can hold center.

ice: Slip and slide. grounded characters are at something of a disadvantage, but not overly so. Just learn how to use the slipperiness of the ice to your favor, and you can pull off some really cool tricks.

Ground: well, lessie. 3 platforms, 2 one one side, one on the other, nothing unusual about that

A giant mound of dirt, one side being a wall, the other being a walk up rant. This transformation is extremely benign, and TBH, it's extremely approachable, way more then the windmill in PS1, the fire portion in PS1, AND the rock portion of PS1.

There should be NO complaint about the ground transformation.

 

[Inui]

Hey, you know, being right ain't so bad. You should try it sometime. ^_^
Alternatively:
Being able to actually debate and use logic ain't so bad. You should try it sometime.

Seriously, there's not one good reason as to why Pokemon Stadium 2 should be banned. If I could drill this into even the most ******** heads on AiB, I can do it here too. Really. Read the first post linked there, and then find me one good reason as to why adding PS2 to the stagelist is a bad idea.

Dear Random,

I would absolutely mutilate you in a debate, and it would be a complete waste of time because this stage will never be legal here. I'm known for being very good at debating and I'm usually right. Edgeworth does not adorn my profile for no reason. I'm not going to waste my time with this. I've been very angry and depressed lately and there's no reason for me to debate with you and take it out on you, because I definitely would.

Sincerely,
Angry Inui

P.S. Stay free.

 

[Palpi]

I personally think castle siege is too ridiculous of a stage... So you can only assume how I feel about ps2's absurdities.

Angry inui is angry

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Don't know who Axel is, and I probably don't care. Your "points" are just your opinions, which hold no weight in this region. It's not up to us to prove why it shouldn't be legal, but up to you to prove why it should, which is fruitless since we like to play this game with less bull**** stages. Characters are not involved in this, otherwise every stage except battlefield sucks.

So it's up to me to prove a stage should be legal? What's the criteria? Can you create a criteria that isn't completely arbitrary and which actually takes our position as a competitive community into account? Because I've honestly tried pretty hard to make one that excludes PS2, and it's eluded me so far.

Dear Random,

I would absolutely mutilate you in a debate, and it would be a complete waste of time because this stage will never be legal here. I'm known for being very good at debating and I'm usually right. Edgeworth does not adorn my profile for no reason. I'm not going to waste my time with this. I've been very angry and depressed lately and there's no reason for me to debate with you and take it out on you, because I definitely would.

Sincerely,
Angry Inui

P.S. Stay free.

Go ahead. Refute any point I've made (between "no transformation provides a degenerate advantage" to "stage movement is not a negative stage aspect but rather a game design tool" to "removing stages for any reason beyond degenerate gameplay is anticompetitive", you've got a pretty wide range of **** to take potshots at). You wanna let it out on me? Go ahead, I can take more than my fair share of abuse. I honestly think a large

I personally think castle siege is too ridiculous of a stage... So you can only assume how I feel about ps2's absurdities.

I personally think it's fair to assume that if you are against any stage that is currently legal at any realistic tournament in your region, you are holding a severely anticompetitive viewpoint.

In fact, gimme about 15 minutes and you'll have an objective reasoning as to why this entire viewpoint on stages is ridiculously wrong.

 

[Palpi]

Opinions can't be wrong!!! Trolollolol

 

[Inui]

Dear Random,

No.

Sincerely,
Angry Inui

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290839

Boom. PS2 should be legal for the reasons I've named before, as well as the thread linked here.

 

[Inui]

Not going to happen.

DIP!

lolololololol

 

[B0NK]

blah blah blah, arguments of conservative stagelist vs neutral stagelist blah blah blah

I prefer a conservative stage list, so does most of NY/NJ, I say go with the majority of the region the tourney is being hosted in.

it goes down to this, do you think a more liberal stagelist would bring in more attendance for your tourney??? If you have any doubt then don't put PS2 on your stagelist. Simple as that, doesn't matter if some random believes it is a good stage for competitive play and can even prove it..... attendance and majority opinion is the only thing that should matter to the TO.

Also it's his tourney, whatever decision he makes people will respect it and either go or not go because of the stage. With Alex Strife's reputation I doubt it will matter =P

 

[Omni]

**** PS2.

anyone who supports it sucks

 

[Punishment Divine]

**** whatcha heard, ps2 is whack, DiP

 

[HelpR]

man, here I was willing to argue over whether or not the stage should be banned or shouldn't be, kinda woulda hoped for debating, because I would rather like to see this stage become accepted, but all the people against it refuse to give good reasoning for it being banned, and it degraded into a flame fest.

I gave my points regardless, seems kinda silly we can't hold a proper point by point debate, but eh, it's smashboards. when has any real discussion ever occurred on this site? it's impossible to convince anyone to drop a stage or pick up a stage by just calling a stage ridiculous and bashing those with the opposing view points.

have fun guys, lol, hope this topic gets locked soon, doesnt seem to be getting any better.

 

[Omni]

believe it or not the whole debate of conservative vs. liberal stagelist has been going on since the game has come out. many of us have already had our fair share of debates and have already came to our conclusion

it all comes down to a preference choice in the end. that's what everything comes down to. there is no right or wrong answer or way.

if u really want to go back and forth it'll look like this:
"i want ps2 because these reasons"
"i dont want ps2 because these reasons"
"well my reasons are more logical than yours"
"well my reasons are more logical than yours"
"well i think this is what we should do"
"well i think this is what we should do"
"well i think your way is wrong"
"well i think your way is wrong"

when you argue over preference you've already reached a dead end

 

[Dabuz]

question, has this region every tried PS2 seriously? or have we banned it before really testing it competitively?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Seriously, the only "problems" come down to "movement is bad" or "physics changes are bad", both of which are horrible reasons to ban anything. There IS no reason to ban PS2. And I'm hoping that the TOs in the region do not bow down to ridiculously scrubby players and actually do the right thing instead of the status quo for once.

 

[B0NK]

I'm hoping that TOs in the region listen to the majority of the region and not "bow down" to "scrubby" OoC theory-crafters.

Go back to your stage discussion boards where everyone agrees with the liberal stagelist you love so much.

 

[Omni]

question, has this region every tried PS2 seriously? or have we banned it before really testing it competitively?

i know md/va use to have it on for a few weeks. maybe a month or two.

Seriously, the only "problems" come down to "movement is bad" or "physics changes are bad", both of which are horrible reasons to ban anything. There IS no reason to ban PS2. And I'm hoping that the TOs in the region do not bow down to ridiculously scrubby players and actually do the right thing instead of the status quo for once.

the "problem" is how you view how the game should be played, BPC, which isn't really a problem. we both disagree with how the game should be approached. that doesn't make one side more scrubby than the other.

the basis of stage banning stems from core concepts about how players think the game should be played. so for you to suggest anything is horrible reason just shows your personal biasness for believing that your idea is in fact "correct".

you're just spewing out a lot of nothing, dude.

 

[_Yes!_]

Which is why we should all put him on our ignore lists!

Omni that one vid you put up for SOTC in the fb chat thing was funny. I might watch them once I finish all my irl ****, which is saying something because usually I just watch SF/MVC3/SC2 stuff.

 

[Linkshot]

I think you should try playing Brawl on Coin and Heavy.
It'll be more competitive than the current settings.
No, I'm not kidding. I honestly think Brawl is a very bad game to play competitively, especially with the current settings we use. There's not even a hint of balance.

And based on everything I read, you guys don't even want balance. You just want a very vanilla, monotonous game that takes 15 minutes per set, at least.

I'm giving up on opening the minds of these people. They like their scrubby bubble too much.

Have fun never winning nationals guys.

 

[Omni]

@Yes:

I think you should try playing Brawl on Coin and Heavy.
It'll be more competitive than the current settings.
No, I'm not kidding. I honestly think Brawl is a very bad game to play competitively, especially with the current settings we use. There's not even a hint of balance.

And based on everything I read, you guys don't even want balance. You just want a very vanilla, monotonous game that takes 15 minutes per set, at least.

I'm giving up on opening the minds of these people. They like their scrubby bubble too much.

Have fun never winning nationals guys.

who are you? are you not aware that M2K and ADHD are from our region?

imustbegettingtrolld

 

[B0NK]

I think you should try playing Brawl on Coin and Heavy.
It'll be more competitive than the current settings.
No, I'm not kidding. I honestly think Brawl is a very bad game to play competitively, especially with the current settings we use. There's not even a hint of balance.

And based on everything I read, you guys don't even want balance. You just want a very vanilla, monotonous game that takes 15 minutes per set, at least.

I'm giving up on opening the minds of these people. They like their scrubby bubble too much.

Have fun never winning nationals guys.

So, how many nationals have you won with that mentality???

 

[Raziek]

As a TO who has been using PS2 as a STARTER for a few months now, I readily advocate its inclusion, for many of the same reasons BPC listed.

Also, for everyone else who just wants to spew Ad hominem fallacies....

Seriously? He asked for input, not for people to starter flame wars.

Alex, if you are available to do so at some point, I'd be interested in talking to you on AIM about this.

 

[Inui]

good posts, Omni