Project Proposal: We can make custom moves fast, easy, and legal

[DunnoBro]

My words you horribly misconstrued and took out of context with fundamental (probably intentional) misunderstandings on what was meant by "behavior".

Behavior is once the game is set and the guy says go. Short of pausing and quitting out anything should go, granted some bugs or glitches can be gamebreaking the game is made by humans afterall.

If you ban X move why not Y or Z?

Because X in this case is a move that bypasses the entire point of the game. Stalling. Unless Y and Z do the same, they won't be touched.

Your attempt at applying the slippery slope fallacy is really just the fallacy fallacy. "Oh, you want to have one more stock? Why not 2? Or 4? Hell, just do 10 stocks and no longer have sets! Just one long game!"

You're not explaining how we get from banning X to banning Y. You're just claiming it'll happen because we want one change, this faulty logic can be applied to almost anything.

 

[smashbro29]

Explain why I can't.

Actually, before that, explain EXACTLY how implementing this rule would make customs "not worth playing"
The burden of proof is on you to prove that actually, not me. Do that, then explain how competitive environments are somehow unable to be compared on any level because they're not the exact same genre.

You really need this spelled out? Jesus...

Ok, consider crappy fighting games for a second. Why don't they get played seriously? Because there's way too much behavior they'd have to ban, not due to glitches but due to poor balancing.

Consider extra modes in other fighters, all banned because they're not how the game was balanced and there would have to a ton of specific rules and bans that no one has the authority or fairness to dole out.

Smash is unique, fanboys have shown even Brawl can be "competitive" if you make a bunch of rules on what you can and can't do while in a match.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

And how do customs not affect the gameplay (behaviour) past the stage loading? Customs change matchups, sets, and changing loadouts is very similar to changing characters. Its a different matchup. Its dynamic. Its deep. I don't see the downside other than the logistics, which aren't a problem if we have sets loaded before the tournament (basic sets being decided on these boards)

Also maybe because X is broken, while Y and Z are not?

I come from Pokemon, this thing, delineating which Mons are broken or not, actually isn't hard. I don't see how its worse than determining stage legality.

 

[smashbro29]

Because X in this case is a move that bypasses the entire point of the game. Stalling. Unless Y and Z do the same, they won't be touched.

Your attempt at applying the slippery slope fallacy is really just the fallacy fallacy. "Oh, you want to have one more stock? Why not 2? Or 4? Hell, just do 10 stocks and no longer have sets! Just one long game!"

You're not explaining how we get from banning X to banning Y. You're just claiming it'll happen because we want one change, this faulty logic can be applied to almost anything.

Imagine you ban this one, then something else comes out that seems kinda broken, you ban it right?

The standard for "broken" will be lowered. Definitely. Look at smogon (because clearly we're allowed to do that even though it's a huge logical fallacy) they ban and unban new stuff every week. You wanna become that?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Imagine you ban this one, then something else comes out that seems kinda broken, you ban it right?

The standard for "broken" will be lowered. Definitely.

Eventually it settles down in Pokemon. Pokemon, a game defined by checks and counter, rock paper scissors style balance. Banning something does open another issue there.

We're just talking about jank moves here. Shine, Shuttle Loop, Tornado...

 

[BombKirby]

I come from Pokemon, this thing, delineating which Mons are broken or not, actually isn't hard. I don't see how its worse than determining stage legality.

Pretty much. If a custom move causes someone's win rate to skyrocket to an uncomfortable amount, you ban it. Simple. (or wait for Nintendo to nerf it) They do this in a ton of relevant esports/video games now a days. If you only play fighting games you probably wouldn't be aware of how the common game controls balance.

Perfect Imbalance. New problems will pop up causing shifts in the meta each ban, and even the banned things cna become unbanned once we've found much worse offenders.

 

[smashbro29]

Eventually it settles down in Pokemon. Pokemon, a game defined by checks and counter, rock paper scissors style balance. Banning something does open another issue there.

We're just talking about jank moves here. Shine, Shuttle Loop, Tornado...

Look I'm sorry I came in and disrupted you guys' hugbox but you can't keep changing **** around like this, it's exhausting.

 

[smashbro29]

Pretty much. If a custom move causes someone's win rate to skyrocket to an uncomfortable amount, you ban it. Simple. (or wait for Nintendo to nerf it) They do this in a ton of relevant esports/video games now a days. If you only play fighting games you probably wouldn't be aware of how the common game controls balance.

Perfect Imbalance. New problems will pop up causing shifts in the meta each ban, and even the banned things cna become unbanned once we've found much worse offenders.

Define uncomfortable amount.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Look I'm sorry I came in and disrupted you guys' hugbox but you can't keep changing **** around like this, it's exhausting.

Maybe don't avoid my points then I won't care?

Its all that I'm asking.

When did I change stuff?

 

[DunnoBro]

You really need this spelled out? Jesus...

Ok, consider crappy fighting games for a second. Why don't they get played seriously? Because there's way too much behavior they'd have to ban, not due to glitches but due to poor balancing.

Consider extra modes in other fighters, all banned because they're not how the game was balanced and there would have to a ton of specific rules and bans that no one has the authority or fairness to dole out.

Smash is unique, fanboys have shown even Brawl can be "competitive" if you make a bunch of rules on what you can and can't do while in a match.

And how is "No ride the wind" or "No stage swoop stalling" in any way "too much behavior they'd have to ban"

Furthermore, bad fighting games generally don't get played for balance or actual fun issues. Not "behavior" issues. Most fighting games don't even give players the freedom of control to behave much of any way, really.

Also, real talk brawl has a ledge grab limit which this would solve the issue of. How is it okay for brawl to do it but not custom sm4sh? Your bias is showing.

 

[smashbro29]

And how is "No ride the wind" or "No stage swoop stalling" in any way "too much behavior they'd have to ban"

Furthermore, bad fighting games generally don't get played for balance or actual fun issues. Not "behavior" issues. Most fighting games don't even give players the freedom of control to behave much of any way, really.

Also, real talk brawl has a ledge grab limit which this would solve the issue of. How is it okay for brawl to do it but not custom sm4sh? Your bias is showing.

It's not. Brawl is **** competitively and everyone who plays it is either in for the money or delusional as ****.

Balance causes behavior therefore balance issues are potential behavior bans which means the players would need house rules to "fix" the balance. Simply put it's the same issue.

 

[guedes the brawler]

@ smashbro29

you noticed you are in a 1 man crusade against something the community has ALREADY accepted, right? What your arugments boil down to in this topic is "i don't want custom moves". guess what? 3ds version has been out for almost 2 months. most People have accepted custom move. you, alone? you are never going to change anything.

 

[Thinkaman]

First, why are we even talking about this?

We've had the game for 2 months. We've seen all the custom moves. I have them unlocked on both bloody systems. None of them are broken.

The best ones are:

• Super Speed
• Hammer Spin Dash
• Timber Counter
• Thunder+
• Wizard's Dropkick
• Void Reflector
• Jumbo Hoop

None of these are remotely bannable.

Even Piston-Punch, which isn't even a custom move (it's a Mii option, which is similar but different) and is seriously bugged, probably isn't ban-worthy. It's only a potential problem on certain low-eight matchups on low-ceiling stages.



Second, I appreciate the concern about logistics and time required by TOs.

But the point of all this is that this only has to be done once per console.

Not once per tourney.

Once ever.

The long-term logistical concerns just aren't a factor.

Perfect Imbalance.

Sorry. Go directly to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200, do not quote the worst game design video of all time ever again.

 

[DunnoBro]

Imagine you ban this one, then something else comes out that seems kinda broken, you ban it right?

The standard for "broken" will be lowered. Definitely. Look at smogon (because clearly we're allowed to do that even though it's a huge logical fallacy) they ban and unban new stuff every week. You wanna become that?

Why would the standard for "broken" be lowered if the ban is not because it's "broken" i.e overpowered, but "broken" in that it breaks game mechanics?

 

[smashbro29]

Why would the standard for "broken" be lowered if the ban is not because it's "broken" i.e overpowered, but "broken" in that it breaks game mechanics?

That's what happens in Pokemon and Yugioh.

 

[smashbro29]

@ smashbro29

you noticed you are in a 1 man crusade against something the community has ALREADY accepted, right? What your arugments boil down to in this topic is "i don't want custom moves". guess what? 3ds version has been out for almost 2 months. most People have accepted custom move. you, alone? you are never going to change anything.

I wasn't aware the entire community was here.

Where's Prog? I wanna tell him I'm a fan.

 

[DunnoBro]

@ smashbro29

you noticed you are in a 1 man crusade against something the community has ALREADY accepted, right? What your arugments boil down to in this topic is "i don't want custom moves". guess what? 3ds version has been out for almost 2 months. most People have accepted custom move. you, alone? you are never going to change anything.

I don't agree "This is the status quo now, deal with it" is a valid rebuttal. I definitely think the idea of "agree or gtfo" can cause issues with movements like this.

We should be welcoming of (valid) criticism and not demonize opposition just for disagreeing. There may very well be holes in our plan and TOs especially shouldn't feel intimidated for bringing them up for us to hopefully provide solutions.

The problem with smashbro is the refusal to adhere to respect, logic, and to a single point. Someone disproves one of his points, he brings up another arbitrary accusation of invalidity towards customs.

I'm perfectly willing to accept customs might be a bad idea, but his arguing that on multiple fronts from multiple angles makes me feel like there's just a disinclination towards change.

1: He refuses to accept it is feasible to do it in tournaments
2: He refuses to accept they are balanced
3: He for some reason believes that, in smash brothers, of ALLLLL fighting games, with it's history of developing it's own standardized rulesets to keep the game as competitive and fun as possible, somehow becomes "not worth playing" if they once again decide stalling should not be allowed.

This makes him come across as someone who will warp the facts around him to find the conclusion he wants.

 

[Pyr]

I wasn't aware the entire community was here.

Where's Prog? I wanna tell him I'm a fan.

Most of the character boards now have a custom move exploration thread and/or standard set discussion thread. Offsite, the support for customs is very strong as well. Entire community? Na. Strong majority? Definitely.

I'm all for discussing the negatives, but some tact is in order. Maybe you wouldn't hit this type of resistance in a discussion if you had some?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

That's what happens in Pokemon and Yugioh.

Except that it doesn't?

Not in Pokemon at least. The standard is never lowered. One big issue with Pokemon is that there is a lot of jank, plenty of broken stuff. However, the brokeness of some things can be hidden by stronger jank from others. For example, in XY OU, Genesect was around until February, and was banned. In his round of suspecting, Deoxys Speed was also on the ballot. Genesect was widely considered broken, Deo S more divisive. However, after Genesect left, Deo S' jank became very much apparent.

One of Smogon's policies is to not allow broken to check broken. All it does to keep it is contribute to a more toxic meta.

After we gave Mega Mawile the boot and Aegislash as well, the meta stabilized. That was late July. The problems with Pokemon now is that everything has sorta been shifted around with ORAS. It takes time to stabilize there.

Banning the centers of a whole tier of Pokemon is far worse than the process for banning a custom move in Smash. Thinkaman also brought up a great point in how we know what each one does already and how none are truly broken right now, it seems.

 

[smashbro29]

I don't agree "This is the status quo now, deal with it" is a valid rebuttal. I definitely think the idea of "agree or gtfo" can cause issues with movements like this.

We should be welcoming of (valid) criticism and not demonize opposition just for disagreeing.

The problem with smashbro is the refusal to adhere to respect, logic, and to a single point. Someone disproves one of his points, he brings up another arbitrary accusation of invalidity towards customs.

I'm perfectly willing to accept customs might be a bad idea, but his arguing that on multiple fronts from multiple angles makes me feel like there's just a disinclination towards change.

1: He refuses to accept it is feasible to do it in tournaments
2: He refuses to accept they are balanced
3: He for some reason believes that, in smash brothers, of ALLLLL fighting games, with it's history of developing it's own standardized rulesets to keep the game as competitive and fun as possible, somehow becomes "not worth playing" if they once again decide stalling should not be allowed.

This makes him come across as someone who will warp the facts around him to find the conclusion he wants.

Thanks doc.

I'm open to change, I think the stage list should be more open and smash 4 should run on 2 stocks but you can't ignore there are a ton of issues with custom moves and you're never going to get past them with an internet circle jerk like this.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm open to change, I think the stage list should be more open and smash 4 should run on 2 stocks but you can't ignore there are a ton of issues with custom moves and you're never going to get past them with an internet circle jerk like this.

What issues?

Ignore the smogon and hypothetical digressions, lets give each other our full attentions.

 

[DunnoBro]

That's what happens in Pokemon and Yugioh.

>The standard for broken in Yugioh has lowered
>The game that once had breaker the magical warrior banned now completely unlimited and no one uses him

Do you just assume the world works like you think it does or do you just hope?

Yugioh and pokemon have extreeeeeme shifts in player viewpoints. What was once considered "broken" is now considered "crap"

See: Talonflame, the little mac of pokemon. (Still good but not "OMG PRIORITY")

 

[DunnoBro]

Thanks doc.

I'm open to change, I think the stage list should be more open and smash 4 should run on 2 stocks but you can't ignore there are a ton of issues with custom moves and you're never going to get past them with an internet circle jerk like this.

It's pretty easy to ignore what doesn't exist.

 

[Thinkaman]

Guys. Who cares about what smogon or yu-gi-oh or candyland banned. That has crap all to do with us, because nothing in Smash 4 needs to be banned.

Going on long hypothetical discussions about how we might approach reasonably banning something is not merely unproductive, but conveys the false impressions that we actually have to have a ban policy for custom moves or whatever.


Re: Lucario

Sure, you can stall under the stage with his up-b 2. You can do the exact same thing with his default up-b. (It's just a harder input since he moves faster) And in both cases the counter-play is pretty easy due to the anti-planking mechanics, so who cares?

 

[DunnoBro]

Guys. Who cares about what smogon or yu-gi-oh or candyland banned. That has crap all to do with us, because nothing in Smash 4 needs to be banned.

Going on long hypothetical discussions about how we might approach reasonably banning something is not merely unproductive, but conveys the false impressions that we actually have to have a ban policy for custom moves or whatever.


Re: Lucario

Sure, you can stall under the stage with his up-b 2. You can do the exact same thing with his default up-b. (It's just a harder input since he moves faster) And in both cases the counter-play is pretty easy due to the anti-planking mechanics, so who cares?

I really have no experience dealing with this, though i can tell it doesn't work on all characters. Yoshi, DHD, Megaman, DDD, etc all have ways to counter this easily.

But I'd imagine if this were at all an issue, we'd see more discussion on this than a crappy YT video. I wonder if it's worth banning at all.

Also rosalina can do it too on some stages iirc.

But we also shouldn't think they're not going to patch for customs. I'm almost certain they changed bowsercide because with the high up b special, bowser could kill people and recover on some stages. (and with that dash custom, it was suuuper easy to get the grab. like i nearly jv 3'd players way better than me and all I did was pretend like I wasn't going to side b)

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Guys. Who cares about what smogon or yu-gi-oh or candyland banned. That has crap all to do with us, because nothing in Smash 4 needs to be banned.

Going on long hypothetical discussions about how we might approach reasonably banning something is not merely unproductive, but conveys the false impressions that we actually have to have a ban policy for custom moves or whatever.


Re: Lucario

Sure, you can stall under the stage with his up-b 2. You can do the exact same thing with his default up-b. (It's just a harder input since he moves faster) And in both cases the counter-play is pretty easy due to the anti-planking mechanics, so who cares?

You're right. I just sorta got lost in the whole Pokemon thing and the tad bit of misinformation/misinterpretation on Smogon and the whole slippery slope argument tying in to them. When I know about something, I can go off aways lol

But yeah, like all customs do is fine tune the moves we already have.

Mario having a faster, weaker fireball, while improving his gameplay, doesn't create a problem.

It strengthens the solution.

 

[MeleeMasterRace]

I actually had the idea of making the amiibo be the custom move guinea pigs for tournaments and restricting the use of custom moves on actual players. I think that the game may be better played with just the basic moves and leaving the custom abilities to another entity in the form of amiibo tournaments. Depending on how that works, that would decide whether it is viable to have everyone use them. I do think that custom moves are possible for tourney play but we aren't far enough to say either way so an experiment is due. This may not fix anything but could be a solution so I offered it up as one.

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't completely agree there's nothing we can learn from other competitive communities, but it is obvious the discussion in this instance has been fruitless so I'll drop it.

 

[DunnoBro]

I actually had the idea of making the amiibo be the custom move guinea pigs for tournaments and restricting the use of custom moves on actual players. I think that the game may be better played with just the basic moves and leaving the custom abilities to another entity in the form of amiibo tournaments. Depending on how that works, that would decide whether it is viable to have everyone use them. I do think that custom moves are possible for tourney play but we aren't far enough to say either way so an experiment is due. This may not fix anything but could be a solution so I offered it up as one.

MeleeMasterRace confirmed for undercover nintendo PR

 

[Thinkaman]

I really have no experience dealing with this, though i can tell it doesn't work on all characters. Yoshi, DHD, Megaman, DDD, etc all have ways to counter this easily.

But I'd imagine if this were at all an issue, we'd see more discussion on this than a crappy YT video. I wonder if it's worth banning at all.

Also rosalina can do it too on some stages iirc.

Camping under the stage has always been a problem. It was even a problem to a small extent in Melee, with Jigglypuff and Peach.

Fortunately, in Smash 4 it shouldn't be as abusable thanks to anti-planking rules. Lucario is the worst/strongest case, due to his speed from point of commitment.

You're right. I just sorta got lost in the whole Pokemon thing and the tad bit of misinformation/misinterpretation on Smogon and the whole slippery slope argument tying in to them. When I know about something, I can go off aways lol

I'm really bad about digressions myself, which is why I was so critical.

I don't completely agree there's nothing we can learn from other competitive communities.

Oh definitely. There's a wealth of knowledge and experience out there to learn and draw from.

 

[AJ34]

I support this 100%. Will begin unlocking everything ASAP so I can contribute to the character threads.

 

[MeleeMasterRace]

MeleeMasterRace confirmed for undercover nintendo PR

Woah woah woah wait lets hold on here. We can all enjoy the perks of the Wii U and buy my-i-mean nintendo's amiibo's to have fun. Please understand that my body is ready to play.

 

[19_]

I actually had the idea of making the amiibo be the custom move guinea pigs for tournaments and restricting the use of custom moves on actual players. I think that the game may be better played with just the basic moves and leaving the custom abilities to another entity in the form of amiibo tournaments. Depending on how that works, that would decide whether it is viable to have everyone use them. I do think that custom moves are possible for tourney play but we aren't far enough to say either way so an experiment is due. This may not fix anything but could be a solution so I offered it up as one.

Woah woah woah wait lets hold on here. We can all enjoy the perks of the Wii U and buy my-i-mean nintendo's amiibo's to have fun. Please understand that my body is ready to play.

No need to make things up my dear nintendo shill, I heard Amibos make great training partners! (No seriously, I might actually make a thread about that)

 

[Leonyx]

Support the ones that do support custom moves.

Will do sir. I'd like to help. Is there any way we can get a list of streaming supporters on the OP or on a new thread? I can attempt to compile a starting list if you guys would like.

 

[otter]

Eventually this game will be hacked and we'll be able to unlock all custom moves automatically.

If there was a demand for custom moves, we would have hacked them into previous games anyway. I am not AGAINST using them, but I am not interested enough to deal with a 3DS.

Then they can make it on that WiiU.

If it's not unlocked, they can transfer it from a 3DS. It doesn't have to be their 3DS, any in the venue works.

You guys are seriously underestimating how valuable time is at a tournament and how little most of the players care about grinding single player modes. Doesn't screwing anyone who wants to customize their customs sort of defeat the purpose of this whole ordeal?

And how is "No ride the wind" or "No stage swoop stalling" in any way "too much behavior they'd have to ban"

Furthermore, bad fighting games generally don't get played for balance or actual fun issues. Not "behavior" issues. Most fighting games don't even give players the freedom of control to behave much of any way, really.

This is simply untrue. Ever heard of the term "Kusoge", it means ****ty but fun. Marvel vs Capcom 3 is a **** fighting game that is played for it's freedom of movement and fun. If that was a Smash>Fighting Games shot, Smash gave up it's freedom of control awhile ago.

Also, real talk brawl has a ledge grab limit which this would solve the issue of. How is it okay for brawl to do it but not custom sm4sh? Your bias is showing.

He wasn't saying it's okay, he's saying Brawl was otherwise unworthy of play. We are still unsure if Smash 4 is, and custom moves may blur our vision in that regard.

 

[kujibiki57]

If there was a demand for custom moves, we would have hacked them into previous games anyway. I am not AGAINST using them, but I am not interested enough to deal with a 3DS.

This makes no sense. Previous games didn't have custom moves, what are you talking about?
And if you are not interested in dealing with a 3DS, just unlock them on your WiiU?

You guys are seriously underestimating how valuable time is at a tournament and how little most of the players care about grinding single player modes. Doesn't screwing anyone who wants to customize their customs sort of defeat the purpose of this whole ordeal?

This ordeal is in order to help everyone who wants their customs. Our proposal is to set a standard, which can then be transferred to every single WiiU. These standards should be the most widely accepted custom combinations. If you see that your character does not have the combination of custom moves you desire, you either bring your own 3DS (or borrow someone else's) in order to transfer that or work with your character's board in order to set your combination as a standard.

He wasn't saying it's okay, he's saying Brawl was otherwise unworthy of play. We are still unsure if Smash 4 is, and custom moves may blur our vision in that regard.

The point of the post you quoted is moot because Sm4sh has anti-planking mechanics by itself, and the fact that Lucario can do that stalling technique even with his default UpB

 

[CaliburChamp]

Smash bros. Custom moves are just like marvel vs capcoms assists. Some assists will be the top choice, no assists are banned no matter how good it is. The only difference is you have to unlock them which most people have done already for their main characters.

 

[otter]

Smash bros. Custom moves are just like marvel vs capcoms assists. Some assists will be the top choice, no assists are banned no matter how good it is. The only difference is you have to unlock them which most people have done already for their main characters.

Assist selection would NOT be legal if it was formatted like custom moves. Especially if you told players or TOs "use the standard ones or buy a vita and grind single player", it would not even be discussed. It is blatantly uncompetitive.

You know what would have been a better example? Heroes and Heralds mode. You know, that mode where grind monotonous single player modes to customize your character? Why didnt you bring that up? Oh yeah, cause its ****ing terrible.

Edition Select is not legal. Omega Mode is not legal. Debug Third Strike is not legal. Blazblue gold characters are not legal. Heroes and Heralds is not legal. It's common sense that these modes a fun side games.

Now, does the smash community need to follow the example of fighting games? No way. Everything should be on the table with a new game, but making bad decisions because someone else did is not in that spirit, especially if youre making it up.

 

[Thinkaman]

You guys are seriously underestimating how valuable time is at a tournament

Uhhh, I'm a TO brah. Specifically I'm a nazi TO who has never had an event run late, because I run things like clockwork.

I know exactly how valuable time is at tourneys, and custom selection does not even make my top ten for "time constraints I am worried about at my event". It's about as disruptive and problematic as people putting in custom controls.

Doesn't screwing anyone who wants to customize their customs sort of defeat the purpose of this whole ordeal?

There's two ways to dismiss this attitude, both valid.

• Most people don't care about having oddball personal customs. Most people want the best, and opinions are usually in general agreement.
• When one person out of a hundred wants wacky oddball customs, okay fine. They aren't screwed, and the overall tourney time is not impeded. They just make it or import it. I could describe how trivial this is, but I don't want to sound patronizing or insulting.

Assist selection would NOT be legal if it was formatted like custom moves. Especially if you told players or TOs "use the standard ones or buy a vita and grind single player", it would not even be discussed. It is blatantly uncompetitive.

I agree that the format is less than desired (nothing should be locked--characters, moves, or stages), but your description is dishonest.

You don't need a 3DS to use custom moves. You need anyone at the entire venue to have a 3DS, or someone to ever have transferred them to the console before.

This is assuming that the WiiU doesn't have the moves unlocked anyway, skipping the entire point. They don't even need all of them, just the ones you care about in that moment!

We don't ban characters or stages because people can't be eff'd to unlock them. Why would moves be different? Moves are somewhat harder to unlock, and yet also easier because you can cheat and use a 3DS.

At any of my events, this is all a moot point. My WiiU has all the customs unlocked, and my 3DS is available. The problem is imaginary.

You know what would have been a better example? Heroes and Heralds mode. You know, that mode where grind monotonous single player modes to customize your character? Why didnt you bring that up? Oh yeah, cause its ****ing terrible.

This mode is literally equipment, which no one here is supporting in this context.

Edition Select is not legal. Omega Mode is not legal. Debug Third Strike is not legal. Blazblue gold characters are not legal. Heroes and Heralds is not legal. It's common sense that these modes a fun side games.

None of these are anything like custom move selection. It's more similar to assist selection, ultra selection, old character selection (Super Turbo), or loadout selection in non-fighting games.

It's vaguely similar to gems, but not really. It's too atomic for that comparison to really work.

 

[DunnoBro]

You guys are seriously underestimating how valuable time is at a tournament and how little most of the players care about grinding single player modes. Doesn't screwing anyone who wants to customize their customs sort of defeat the purpose of this whole ordeal?

Please read before you post. No one is suggesting players grind single player modes to accomplish this project.

Furthermore, i find it ironic you complain about "Screwing over people using customs" while trying to deny all customs. Regardless, no one is "Screwed" if their custom set isn't present (very unlikely for a competitive player) they need only contact the TO so they can be accommodated.

This is simply untrue. Ever heard of the term "Kusoge", it means ****ty but fun. Marvel vs Capcom 3 is a **** fighting game that is played for it's freedom of movement and fun. If that was a Smash>Fighting Games shot, Smash gave up it's freedom of control awhile ago.

"Kusoge" doesnt mean "****ty but fun" it means "**** game"
Sometimes, there are games so bad they're enjoyable on some level ("so bad it's good"). These are kusoge too. But this is not why MvC3 is enjoyable. This is why that pooh bear baseball game, goat simulator, or other woefully broken games are entertaining.

Please educate yourself of online Japanese culture before you try to bring it up in an argument: http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/kusoge/kusoge00index.htm

Regardless, if the end result is that a game is fun, then my statement was not untrue at all. Games that are fun get played. Fighting games or otherwise.

He wasn't saying it's okay, he's saying Brawl was otherwise unworthy of play. We are still unsure if Smash 4 is, and custom moves may blur our vision in that regard.

If he was saying that, why couldn't he clarify that for himself? Regardless, he very clearly claimed brawl had merits as a competitive game on some level because of the rules they placed on it. Why that merit was not applicable in any way to sm4sh needs to be explained or the point is entirely invalid.