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Project M Social Thread

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MonkUnit

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I think it's because hotdogturtle told Raphbo that FoD in PM didn't have random platforms because it wasn't possible and that it's a static animation.
 
RaphaelRobo

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The discussion started because Peef was suggesting his idea for a new stage list, and suggested to remove randomish elements, like Randall. I said, if you're going to do that, why not get rid of FoD's platforms? Then people are like "Man, stop hating on FoD" and I'm like "I like FoD, it's a cool stage, and I think it's actually good for Ganon *shock*. I just don't think it fits our Melee definition of a starter. Here's why..." And then people are like "You can strike it, so it should be a starter" And I'm like "Is that really the best you can come up with?"

That's the discussion.
 
hotdogturtle

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RaphaelRobo said:
The discussion started because Peef was suggesting his idea for a new stage list, and suggested to remove randomish elements, like Randall. I said, if you're going to do that, why not get rid of FoD's platforms? Then people are like "Man, stop hating on FoD" and I'm like "I like FoD, it's a cool stage, and I think it's actually good for Ganon *shock*. I just don't think it fits our Melee definition of a starter. Here's why..." And then people are like "You can strike it, so it should be a starter" And I'm like "Is that really the best you can come up with?"

That's the discussion.
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Your whole argument for removing the stage was basically "I don't like it". Even in that big wall of text that you've posted a few times, all you said was "it messes up my combos" or "it pushes me into attacks". You haven't provided any solid objective arguments for removing the stage, and for the most part you've ignored the fact that aside from your personal anecdotes, the stage mostly fits our current definition of a starter stage.
 
RaphaelRobo

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hotdogturtle said:
Your whole argument for removing the stage was basically "I don't like it". Even in that big wall of text that you've posted a few times, all you said was "it messes up my combos" or "it pushes me into attacks". You haven't provided any solid objective arguments for removing the stage, and for the most part you've ignored the fact that aside from your personal anecdotes, the stage mostly fits our current definition of a starter stage.
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Strong Bad defined a neutral as following two rules. There was nothing random, and it had an irregular platform layout and/or uneven ground. While FoD is no longer random, the heights of the platforms are almost always changing, so it rarely has a regular platform layout. Instead, the platforms are usually at weird heights, which means the layout is irregular. The platforms are only in a normal layout for about 5 seconds before moving, which means after that the layout becomes irregular.

I'm pretty sure that's objective. I'm trying to look at this from an objective viewpoint. If I were being personal, there'd be no debate, because I'm fine with PM FoD being where it is. I'm also fairly certain everyone gets moved into attacks or has air dodges caused by the platform movement, not just me.

Randall is also a very good comparison to FoD's platforms. They're both very similar in terms of how they affect the game, but Randall's pattern is much easier to memorize. I believe saying that is objective. People still complain about Randall, saying he is "too random". If FoD's pattern cannot be memorized, it may as well be random, because you can't always know when and where it's going to move. And if it's essentially random, that means it violates both of SB's rules, and should clearly not be a starter.
 
Archangel

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RaphaelRobo said:
The logic is, your only reason for FoD to be a starter was that I could strike it. That's it. You have no other reason for it to be a starter. I could use that exact same logic for every stage. If you don't want to play on it, strike it. So, every stage should be a starter.

YS is different, because Randall is on a timer that's much easier to manage. If you can prove to me that people can memorize that FoD timer, I'll say that it's just as good of a starter. Randall can be managed very very easily. FoD, on the other hand, has a timer that, according to what I've checked, is a minute and a half long, with uneven intervals. Unlike Randall, you can't just glance at the timer and know where the platforms are and where they will be, meaning it's much more difficult to account for them.
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RaphaelRobo said:
Strong Bad defined a neutral as following two rules. There was nothing random, and it had an irregular platform layout and/or uneven ground. While FoD is no longer random, the heights of the platforms are almost always changing, so it rarely has a regular platform layout. Instead, the platforms are usually at weird heights, which means the layout is irregular. The platforms are only in a normal layout for about 5 seconds before moving, which means after that the layout becomes irregular.

I'm pretty sure that's objective. I'm trying to look at this from an objective viewpoint. If I were being personal, there'd be no debate, because I'm fine with PM FoD being where it is. I'm also fairly certain everyone gets moved into attacks or has air dodges caused by the platform movement, not just me.

Randall is also a very good comparison to FoD's platforms. They're both very similar in terms of how they affect the game, but Randall's pattern is much easier to memorize. I believe saying that is objective. People still complain about Randall, saying he is "too random". If FoD's pattern cannot be memorized, it may as well be random, because you can't always know when and where it's going to move. And if it's essentially random, that means it violates both of SB's rules, and should clearly not be a starter.
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Nobody is going to argue with you as long as videos like this exist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGENvJ-j39k

One of if not the single greatest match I've ever seen on FoD. It's also discussed alot in both Falco and Falcon threads as a ****ed up stage for both characters considering it can interrupt both Falco and Falcon's rhythm. However this match proves that it can be played well. Both players flow through the match without skipping a beat. Just because you or your character don't do incredibly well on a stage..that doesn't mean the stage is flawed as a started. There are plenty of chain attacks/combos that can be done on FD without platforms to interrupt them. There are also various follow ups that can be preformed by taking advantage of a platform. Marth's Bthrow onto platform-Uptilt set up for example. My point being that following this train of thought you are on leads to no starter stages at all.
 
Strong Badam

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platforms at weird heights? really? you're grasping man. you're just looking for a reason to ban a stage. what about Yoshi's Island: Brawl? are you going to argue that should be banned because the platform is "weird" (a horrendously vague adjective) sometimes?
 
RaphaelRobo

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No. I'd say it should be a CP because of the uneven ground, and because the ghosts are random instead of on a timer. Based on your definition, that violates both points.

You said that starter stages shouldn't have irregular platform layout. Does that mean platform height doesn't matter when considering whether or not a platform layout is irregular?

I don't know if you've seen me say this, but I like playing on FoD, and think it's a good CP. I don't want it banned.

As for that video, I hadn't seen it before. I always thought people could play like that on FoD, though. In my opinion, the problem isn't that it messes with characters, because that can clearly be compensated for. It's that the irregular platform movement seems to violate our definition of a starter. I don't think it violates it enough, though, to not make it onto 7 or 9 stage lists.

The only reason I brought up FoD was because Peef was talking about randomish elements on stages. If he's going to include Randall as randomish, why not FoD's platforms? That's the only reason I mentioned FoD in the first place, not to decide whether or not it should be a starter. You convinced me the last time we talked about it that it should be on 7 or 9 stage lists. 5 stage lists I'm not sure about, simply because I think there are more neutral options, but 7 or 9 are good.
 
Archangel

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RaphaelRobo said:
No. I'd say it should be a CP because of the uneven ground, and because the ghosts are random instead of on a timer. Based on your definition, that violates both points.

You said that starter stages shouldn't have irregular platform layout. Does that mean platform height doesn't matter when considering whether or not a platform layout is irregular?

I don't know if you've seen me say this, but I like playing on FoD, and think it's a good CP. I don't want it banned.

As for that video, I hadn't seen it before. I always thought people could play like that on FoD, though. In my opinion, the problem isn't that it messes with characters, because that can clearly be compensated for. It's that the irregular platform movement seems to violate our definition of a starter. I don't think it violates it enough, though, to not make it onto 7 or 9 stage lists.

The only reason I brought up FoD was because Peef was talking about randomish elements on stages. If he's going to include Randall as randomish, why not FoD's platforms? That's the only reason I mentioned FoD in the first place, not to decide whether or not it should be a starter. You convinced me the last time we talked about it that it should be on 7 or 9 stage lists. 5 stage lists I'm not sure about, simply because I think there are more neutral options, but 7 or 9 are good.
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wait....so you've already been convinced....what the hell dude are you trolling or something. Also how could you have not seen Videos of DashizWiz and Silentspectre playing on FoD before? Are you new to Smash/Melee?
 
RaphaelRobo

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New enough that I wasn't around when that tournament took place.

And yeah, I have no clue why this debate came up again. All I did was point out that it seems weird to call Randall randomish, but not the platforms on FoD, and somehow we ended up in it. I'm still not sure how it happened. I don't believe it's as neutral as other starters, but I think it's fine. I'm not convinced about Melee, where it's random, so sometimes I forget which game I'm talking about. The only thing I have against the stage in Melee is that we don't like our starters to have any random elements, yet somehow FoD makes it in there.

To be fair, though, I spent a lot of time on FoD today, because of this discussion, and really experimenting with exactly what I could do there as Ganon, the timer for the stage, and so on. I studied it harder than I would for most tests at school. That helped convince me, and has made me want to use it as a CP for certain matchups, such as Falcon, Falco, or the Ganon ditto. The fact is, as long as other Ganons continue to hate it for SHFFL reasons instead of learning how to play there, I'll have an advantage in the matchup.
 
Strong Badam

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FoD's platform layout is not irregular. There are 3 platforms in a triple-pattern such as on BF, YS, Dreamland. The side platforms move up and down, and sometimes disappear entirely into the stage. It is a unique thing about the stage, and has no abusable issues.
 
RaphaelRobo

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Alright. If height doesn't affect whether or not platform layout is irregular, then it's fine.
 
Strong Badam

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I don't think so, otherwise one out of YS and DL would be irregular as they're at different heights.
 
leelue

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FoD is asymmetrical though. And the plats are unique because they are under short-hop height often.
No other plats are low enough to have characters standing side by side, at different heights, and be able to hit each other. The low plats are analogous to sloped ground in that they "mess up" combos (like they are entitled in the first place).
The timer is silly to remember and if you don't, the movement does indeed interfere with normal combat (breaking characters out of a dash, pulling a character out of a grab in progress, etc.)
There.
I agree with raph.

It isn't even an issue for me atm because I want to use kinklink's method anyway.

Kaizo, how are shield both bad for shielding but good for shield grabs? More importantly, what's inherently wrong with shield pokes being more important?
 
MaxThunder

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Strong Bad said:
I don't think so, otherwise one out of YS and DL would be irregular as they're at different heights.
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no that's not logical in any way...

comparing saying one stage has irregular platform layout when the platforms have different heights to saying one out of two stages with regular platform layouts is irregular in relation to each other does not work... at all...
 
Archangel

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MaxThunder said:
no that's not logical in any way...

comparing saying one stage has irregular platform layout when the platforms have different heights to saying one out of two stages with regular platform layouts is irregular in relation to each other does not work... at all...
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"Logic is the beginning of wisdom not the end of it"
 
The_Guide

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Does anyone have any vids of high level Snake's in this game? I can't for the life of me figure out how to play this character...
 
JediKnightTemplar

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From what I've done with him, you need to just use his explosives to set up traps. BThrow->Mine seems a good combo starter, but I haven't experimented with his aerials enough to know if it is or not. Overall just keep your opponent on their toes with your normal attacks and sooner or later you'll be able to land a trap on them. I'm not so sure on the offensive capabilities of Nikita; it seems kind of campy to me. Grenade probably has some stuff you could do with it, but I don't know what yet. I don't feel like writing a wall of useless, obvious, or flat-out wrong assumptions on my part, so what I'll say is just to experiment with the character. As long as you have an opponent to play against often, you'll figure things out. Overall I'd say the best way to figure out how a character works is to mess around with it yourself. When you try to improve by watch others you're just incorporating their playstyle into yours, which can have mixed results. Snake has a new metagame in PM and unless you aren't the curious or deconstructive type, learning your own way to play is best.

:phone:
 
The_Guide

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Pyrostormer said:
Here are some vids from the best snake Ive ever played:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvYjZtyoi2A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcHMqbLgtIA

Only problem is the Zelda player he's playing against is really ****ing good as well, so you won't get to see him ****. But you can still see how the character is played.
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Thanks mate, exactly what I was looking for. There's also a lot of character diversity on that channel, so thanks for that as well! :D

Edit: In a similar vein as my last comment, does anyone have vids of a Charizard excelling against competent opponents? Charizard has never had much success in my group of players, and I'm starting to see a trend of that in the matches I watch online.
 
hotdogturtle

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Hey, so, in a thread for an upcoming tournament, Mew2King said he'd rather enter Project M than Melee draft crews.
 
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