Project M Social Thread

[leelue]

Out of curiosity, why do you use your current definition of what a "starter" is, Strongbad (as opposed to... whatever alternatives may exist that I'm sure I have never heard of)?

 

[Strong Badam]

The issue I have is that the term "Neutral" isn't even applicable, and hasn't been for nearly 3 years now. Through stage striking, a player can prevent a stage from being played on for game 1, so having a "polarizing" stage on as a Starter doesn't matter. Dreamland is "polarizing" in that in some matchups it favors floatier characters, but the stage has a consistent layout and the wind on it does not really impact things at all. Part of the skill of this game is knowing how to play on different stages. Making a stage banned/CP just because "It's different" is horrendously bad justificaiton.
Instead what you should be looking into as far as a list of stages to strike from goes, is to prevent stages that:
1. Have inconsistent impact on results. i.e. random events. Brinstar, Pictochat, etc. have random effects and while perfectly fine for competitive play in general, not suitable as Starter stages.
2. Have uneven terrain/irregular platform layouts, as status quo is important.

from a few pages back. it was then mentioned that it's impractical to strike from 21 or so stages, hence the necessity of a distinction between starter/CP in the first place.

 

[PEEF!]

from a few pages back. it was then mentioned that it's impractical to strike from 21 or so stages, hence the necessity of a distinction between starter/CP in the first place.

Why not only use the best, most neutral 8-10, and throw out the wack or slightly wack stages altogether?

 

[Strong Badam]

because that's subjective and arbitrary

 

[PEEF!]

because that's subjective and arbitrary

*facepalm*

Okay let me just explain in completely objective terms, beginning from the most fundamental mathematical axioms and ending with my exact stagelist like you did...

 

[Pyrostormer]

here are those vids I was talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NmrAfY-g3c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvMhHDYZmS0

 

[GimR]

This is what we think of Jcaeser's ROB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc3QwaAISAI&feature=plcp

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Raph: I have explained 800 times. A stage aspect that inherently favors one character over another is not bad, otherwise there would be 1 legal stage. The stage is a starter because it is similar to most other starters and has literally no random aspects. If your character is bad on FoD, strike it/ban it, don't try to whine until it's not a starter anymore. I should not have to justify why it's a Starter, because it is. You should be justifying why it isn't as you're the one who wants to change it.

I understand that, and completely agree that I shouldn't complain about my character being bad there. Does that mean that being moved into attacks and my wavedashes not working is a character specific issue? I knew SHFFL was, but I thought that other stuff affected everyone. I know it affects me when I play as other characters there.

As for me justifying why it shouldn't be a starter, I thought I did a pretty good job with this post:

unexpected movement of the platforms
moved me into the attack
I've gone to platformdash, and the platform moves, I air dodge, and my opponents KOs me for it
indirect hazard
There's no warning, and they often cause one of the players to get hurt.

The only response to that was a few people saying those were good points, no one disagreeing with those points. Also, from your definition, FoD violates point two, as it often has an irregular platform layout or uneven terrain, depending on the height of the platforms.

EDIT: I should add, though, that I have no problem with FoD being on 7 or 9 stage starter lists. I believe it should be on them. I was just surprised Peef mentioned Randall, which has a much easier to memorize cycle, than FoD, whose cycle is much more difficult to memorize.

 

[Vigilante]

This is what we think of Jcaeser's ROB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc3QwaAISAI&feature=plcp

Looool, so true.

 

[ph00tbag]

The issue I have with all of these people complaining about what's wrong with Charizard is that everyone seems to think something different is wrong with him. "Oh, he has poor close-range defense." "Oh he has poor ground to air." "Oh, he has terrible pokes."

Reading the Charizard forum on SmashMods is terribly depressing because everyone is busy whining about what's not working for them personally rather than talking about what's working for them personally. I feel like if people were actually talking about how they're playing Charizard and what they're doing to deal with different situations, more actual development would be happening. For some reason, everyone who is playing Charizard would rather everything just get fixed the easy way (meaning it involves no effort on their part), than the hard way (where they have to, you know, actually work to win with the character).

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

The issue I have with all of these people complaining about what's wrong with Charizard is that everyone seems to think something different is wrong with him. "Oh, he has poor close-range defense." "Oh he has poor ground to air." "Oh, he has terrible pokes."

Reading the Charizard forum on SmashMods is terribly depressing because everyone is busy whining about what's not working for them personally rather than talking about what's working for them personally. I feel like if people were actually talking about how they're playing Charizard and what they're doing to deal with different situations, more actual development would be happening. For some reason, everyone who is playing Charizard would rather everything just get fixed the easy way (meaning it involves no effort on their part), than the hard way (where they have to, you know, actually work to win with the character).

It's just the character's weakness, everyone should have at least 1

 

[Pyrostormer]

james...dont make me 4 stock you.

i just started playing this game sunday, and have been putting in tremendous work since then. While its true the only thing I've posted here is a request for changes (that I believe are 100% deserved, but w/e), on smashmods I did post stuff in the charizard thread - a new AT I discovered. And I just recently posted videos there as well. So saying that the only thing we do is complain is pretty rude...esp when I at least have only started posting there in like...the past 2 days

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Clearly, all of Charizard's weaknesses are also his strongest points. He's like the ultimate mystery.

Stingers, I'll go Ganon against your Charizard. Let's do it. I need to work on my infinite sideB on reaction.

 

[JCaesar]

You've been playing for half a week and you've already determined that Charizard is unviable and are asking for buffs...?

 

[Pyrostormer]

I've probably put more hours than most people since sunday so yeah I'd say im pretty fit to judge XD. I know the PMBR is like my own personal fox news and likes to make everything I say sound negative, but fact of the matter is, every character could do with some changes. Nothings perfect, especially in a WIP like this. I'm allowed to share my opinions just like everyone else...and since I actually back up what I say with evidence as opposed to just vapid blathering, I don't see why I'm always the one singled out for criticism from y'all...but whatever floats the boat. Old habits die hard

 

[JCaesar]

Nothing is perfect, you are right. Project M's cast is definitely not perfectly balanced (though it's pretty good imo). But we want the metagame to develop so we can better determine where every character actually stands (rather than a few isolated opinions), and that won't happen if we start making balance changes after a month. So feel free to give us feedback, but don't be upset when we don't make changes based on your recommendations.

 

[Vigilante]

@stingers: It's not really that, but it takes more time to properly playtest. And you should stop trying to circumvent bans.

 

[leelue]

I don't see why I'm always the one singled out for criticism from y'all...but whatever floats the boat. Old habits die hard

You are not the only one who gets criticism for asking for changes.

Not by a long shot. A somewhat tedious look through smashmods will show many-a-thread with either myself or a pmbr member telling people that now is not the right time.

Furthermore
Even if we were to take any changes to heart, the changes you ask for aren't backed up by why, exactly, charizard needs those improvements (if any) over another improvement. If he cant auto-cancel bair, well what can he do instead to make up for this? Is there something else he can do? If he doesn't play like you envision a character like him to play, well what alternate playstyle can you come up with to make him win? Are you sure you've tried everything? Are you sure that you're even qualified to say that you're sure in the first place?
Those questions that I offer as retorts to your suggestions would have to be answered. They are questions that players who main new characters such as myself are in the process of answering. I've played Sonic almost exclusively for about 45-50 hours total against a few of the most skilled players in my area (Eli, Will, Ninjalink, Ryan-K) and I'm still figuring things out. Your assertion that your 4 days or less of playtime, no matter how concentrated, could possibly compare to my devotion is offensive. The fact that you won't recognize that your changes aren't subtle and that you'd say that they are "100%" justified may also offensive to people trying to work with what they have.

These are two reasons for why you feel victimized at the moment, because you are saying things that draw ire from people more experienced than you.

There's no way that the pmbr or any of the intelligent regulars would let you by on "I've put in more work than most in under a week". That isn't an attack on your integrity, nobody should be able come by with only that much playtime and have people not criticize them.
Nobody.
I don't care if M2K himself came in; if he said "I installed it on Monday, tested Bowser, and this is what's wrong with him. I'm justified.", I'd tell him to play more and come back later.

For example
http://smashmods.com/forum/thread-4206.html
That man is a known player with lots of tournament experience and works in game design. After more time had passed than you've put in, he posted a much larger and more well thought out reply than yours. He had detractors as well but didn't cry foul when he did, unlike you. (Actually, my biggest problem with the thread is how Peef!'s post from the very start makes an exception for him without even hinting at deflecting his suggestions.)
Anyway
After all of his posts and the debates that ensued, enough time had passed that many of his character specific complaints were dissolved! He hadn't taken enough time to let the metagame evolve and was shown so.
That, sir, is a precedent.

So in the meantime, as respectfully as I possibly can, I have to ask you to play for more time and if you have suggestions concerning the way your character should work at a later date, bring them up when the community at large is more willing to entertain them.

 

[9Kplus1]

Zard is high mid tier

You guys are ******s

 

[leelue]

Zard is high mid tier

You guys are ******s

But 9k, that would mean that he's actually better than... at.. least 5 characters. Sonic is not 5 characters.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I don't care if M2K himself came in; if he said "I installed it on Monday, tested Bowser, and this is what's wrong with him. I'm justified.", I'd tell him to play more and come back later.

Haha, remember the first time he posted in here?

please make the changes that I asked. It will make the game better.

 

[kaizo13]

when u guys say there won't be any changes any time soon, that just goes for characters right? cuz shields need so much work right now. you can only block like 1 or 2 hits before you get poked with certain moves. Shieldstun is too low, degeneration is too fast, shield knockback isn't perfect...shield grabbing is sooo gay at the moment.

 

[JCaesar]

It's only balance-related character changes. Fixing bugs and mechanics are always fair game.

 

[Archangel]

Why don't you explain to me, then, why you're fine with the platforms on FoD.

I've said they often result in me getting hit (and KOed, because Ganon is easy to combo) when I platform dash or the platform just moving me into the attack. I've never understood, the whole time I've been playing, why people are alright with the platforms moving around.

The only response I've heard on the other side is "Don't complain they mess with Falcon/Ganon's SHFFL". I don't complain about the SHFFL, and I think that's the fault of the player, not the stage. I'm fine with FoD as a stage, or a starter in larger lists (7/9 stages), but with our Melee definition of a starter, I don't think it fits on 5 stage lists, and I think there are better options for 7 stage lists.

It's hard for me to change my opinion about FoD when I don't hear anyone telling me why I should change it, other than saying my opinion is "wrong" or "bad". Justify why FoD is a good starter, and I'll be fine with it being a starter.

You do realize that you don't have to play on FoD outside of friendlies right?

 

[Kink-Link5]

The issue I have with all of these people complaining about what's wrong with Charizard is that everyone seems to think something different is wrong with him. "Oh, he has poor close-range defense." "Oh he has poor ground to air." "Oh, he has terrible pokes."

Reading the Charizard forum on SmashMods is terribly depressing because everyone is busy whining about what's not working for them personally rather than talking about what's working for them personally. I feel like if people were actually talking about how they're playing Charizard and what they're doing to deal with different situations, more actual development would be happening. For some reason, everyone who is playing Charizard would rather everything just get fixed the easy way (meaning it involves no effort on their part), than the hard way (where they have to, you know, actually work to win with the character).

Okay, here's what is working with charizard for me.

Choose him against most* characters without a projectile and play super defensively.

He's like a bad version of Zelda sort of, so as long as the opponent chooses to approach**, he can snuff them pretty easily, I guess. So I guess yeah, Charizard is a good character if his opponent is really dumb.


*Not Marth or Falcon

**From the air

 

[Shroomed]

Not to sound rude or anything, but I think the metagame will evolve faster if you guys bug the top players to play each other for lengthy periods of time.

I plan to get my wii back once this quarter is over and start practicing and providing feedback.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Carry on

Not to sound rude or anything, but I think the metagame will evolve faster if you guys bug the top players to play each other for lengthy periods of time.

I'd love to see more videos of top players. But it seems that there are not so many of those. I don't think bugging is very efficient in this, people play this game if they want to.
I want to see what these characters can really do.

 

[Revven]

Shieldstun is too low.

Shieldstun is the same as Melee in Demo 2.

 

[Archangel]

Not to sound rude or anything, but I think the metagame will evolve faster if you guys bug the top players to play each other for lengthy periods of time.

I plan to get my wii back once this quarter is over and start practicing and providing feedback.

This is partly true...Then again the evolution of the completely new characters I feel is completely up for grabs.

Shieldstun is the same as Melee in Demo 2.

I find this statement to be super hard to believe. Considering you can't effectively apply shield pressure on pretty much anyone and even spaced attacks that would work in melee no longer work in Project M. Also...why does it seem that everyone can tank any attack in the game and still get a successful grab? If timed right you can absorb a falcon punch and still grab...anyone else find that weird?

 

[Revven]

I find this statement to be super hard to believe. Considering you can't effectively apply shield pressure on pretty much anyone and even spaced attacks that would work in melee no longer work in Project M.

Magus worked on making sure shieldstun = Melee and did it like... long before Demo 2 came out.

What is different about shields and we plan to fix in the future:
Regeneration time
Degeneration time
Pushback (why shield pressure may seem different despite the same shieldstun)

And I'm pretty sure that's it (might be missing one or two things off hand). Shieldstun is 100% the same though... for sure. If it wasn't, Magus wouldn't have made a new code to make it so it was.

 

[standardtoaster]

okay fine, ninja me, smk :[

 

[Archangel]

Magus worked on making sure shieldstun = Melee and did it like... long before Demo 2 came out.

What is different about shields and we plan to fix in the future:
Regeneration time
Degeneration time
Pushback (why shield pressure may seem different despite the same shieldstun)

And I'm pretty sure that's it (might be missing one or two things off hand). Shieldstun is 100% the same though... for sure. If it wasn't, Magus wouldn't have made a new code to make it so it was.

yeah I heard that before I was just being a ****.

What about the tank grabs?

 

[Revven]

yeah I heard that before I was just being a ****.

What about the tank grabs?

Please read the FAQ in the OP about the grab.

 

[Archangel]

Please read the FAQ in the OP about the grab.

You are no fun...

 

[RaphaelRobo]

You do realize that you don't have to play on FoD outside of friendlies right?

You do realize that you don't have to play on Big Blue outside of friendlies, right? Does that mean we should make Big Blue a starter? There's a big flaw in your logic about what makes a stage a starter. Just because you can strike a stage doesn't make it a good starter. I presented my reasons as to why FoD shouldn't be a starter, and never got a rebuttal. If what you're saying is the best anyone can come up with, then it clearly shouldn't be a starter.


EDIT: After more messing around with FoD, it appears the platforms only start moving when the timer is about 5. Knowing this, you can take into account platform movement fairly well, which allows you to fight on them efficiently. Not only this, but Ganondorf can take advantage of shorter platform heights to do some cool stuff with edge cancels. I like playing on FoD, and would have no problem with playing on the PM FoD in tournament. If I were better at edge canceling, I'd even CP it in tournament. My issues are with it being a starter, not with how good of a stage it is for me.

As I've said before, the only reason I mentioned FoD's platforms was because of what Peef said about Randall, which has an easy to memorize timer (First digit is Odd and second digit is less than 5 (6 in PM, and greater than 1) - right. First digit is Even and second digit is less than 5 (6 in PM, and greater than 1) - Inside the stage. Randall moves in a counterclockwise direction). FoD, on the otherhand, has the following timer (Left platform starts moving down after 7 seconds. When this stops moving, after about 3 seconds, the right platform starts moving down. When this stops moving, after about 5 seconds, the left platform starts going down. This platform takes about 2 seconds to go all the way down. After another 14 seconds, the right platform starts to go up. The left one starts moving up about a second later. They both stop moving after 5 more seconds. The right platform starts moving down after 3 more seconds, and moves for 4 seconds. Then the left platform moves up for 3 seconds. About 5 seconds later, it moves down for 4 seconds. 5 seconds later, the right platform moves down for 4 seconds. At this point, only the top platform is remaining. Then, the left platform moves up for 5 seconds. About 8 seconds later, the right platform starts moving up for about 5 seconds, then both platforms move up until they resume their initial configuration) See how that pattern is a lot harder to memorize? It seems a lot more randomish to me.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Out of curiosity, what are people using to make PM TAS videos? I know there's no AR to do frame-by-frame analysis, but what's out there and how are these videos made?

 

[NickRiddle]

Frame-by-frame code for normal Brawl.

 

[standardtoaster]

He's using dolphin.

 

[Archangel]

You do realize that you don't have to play on Big Blue outside of friendlies, right? Does that mean we should make Big Blue a starter? There's a big flaw in your logic about what makes a stage a starter. Just because you can strike a stage doesn't make it a good starter. I presented my reasons as to why FoD shouldn't be a starter, and never got a rebuttal. If what you're saying is the best anyone can come up with, then it clearly shouldn't be a starter.


EDIT: After more messing around with FoD, it appears the platforms only start moving when the timer is about 5. Knowing this, you can take into account platform movement fairly well, which allows you to fight on them efficiently. Not only this, but Ganondorf can take advantage of shorter platform heights to do some cool stuff with edge cancels. I like playing on FoD, and would have no problem with playing on the PM FoD in tournament. If I were better at edge canceling, I'd even CP it in tournament. My issues are with it being a starter, not with how good of a stage it is for me.

As I've said before, the only reason I mentioned FoD's platforms was because of what Peef said about Randall, which has an easy to memorize timer (First digit is Odd and second digit is less than 5 (6 in PM, and greater than 1) - right. First digit is Even and second digit is less than 5 (6 in PM, and greater than 1) - Inside the stage. Randall moves in a counterclockwise direction). FoD, on the otherhand, has the following timer (Left platform starts moving down after 7 seconds. When this stops moving, after about 3 seconds, the right platform starts moving down. When this stops moving, after about 5 seconds, the left platform starts going down. This platform takes about 2 seconds to go all the way down. After another 14 seconds, the right platform starts to go up. The left one starts moving up about a second later. They both stop moving after 5 more seconds. The right platform starts moving down after 3 more seconds, and moves for 4 seconds. Then the left platform moves up for 3 seconds. About 5 seconds later, it moves down for 4 seconds. 5 seconds later, the right platform moves down for 4 seconds. At this point, only the top platform is remaining. Then, the left platform moves up for 5 seconds. About 8 seconds later, the right platform starts moving up for about 5 seconds, then both platforms move up until they resume their initial configuration) See how that pattern is a lot harder to memorize? It seems a lot more randomish to me.

Big blue is not a starter or a counterpick....so I don't see how that applies at all. Also by this logic I imagine you don't like the fact that YS(Melee) is a starter as well? There is a cloud we call Randell that circles the stage and can be used to save character who have crappy recovery and sometimes hinders those who go for gimps and gets them killed so it should be removed from a starter?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

The logic is, your only reason for FoD to be a starter was that I could strike it. That's it. You have no other reason for it to be a starter. I could use that exact same logic for every stage. If you don't want to play on it, strike it. So, every stage should be a starter.

YS is different, because Randall is on a timer that's much easier to manage. If you can prove to me that people can memorize that FoD timer, I'll say that it's just as good of a starter. Randall can be managed very very easily. FoD, on the other hand, has a timer that, according to what I've checked, is a minute and a half long, with uneven intervals. Unlike Randall, you can't just glance at the timer and know where the platforms are and where they will be, meaning it's much more difficult to account for them.