Project M Social Thread

[Jonny Westside]

Too bad Lucas is a spacie without fur. The lack of fur makes Demo 2 Lucas low tier.

lmfao this is the quote of the century XD

 

[Strong Badam]

dude what

ganon's double jump is short as hell
doesn't make him a bad hcaracter

 

[odinNJ]

im sure this doesnt go here. but how do i apply textures and use project M?

 

[PGH Carroll]

DKs up B is broken

 

[Ecks]

Whoa, that TAS was one of the best ones yet!

 

[leelue]

DKs up B is broken

If I can get through it as Sonic, then it certainly isn't broken. It's just very very difficult.

It's the Sonic Edgegaurd Litmus Test, or SELT for short.

 

[Strong Badam]

carroll this isn't a YLYL thread

 

[MaxThunder]

im sure this doesnt go here. but how do i apply textures and use project M?

the same way you'd use texture with brawl or any other brawl mod...
... and in case you don't know how, you should find it somewhere in here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262863 ... i think... too sleepy to explain it myself now...

 

[odinNJ]

i cant add the texture code to the gct file and i dont think i should have two. deoes it have the texture code already in the file?

 

[Strong Badam]

yes, it does.

 

[Pyrostormer]

I'd like to take a second to talk about Charizard for a bit, because I main him and he seems to be receiving a lot less attention than most of the cast...I'd like to address some things about him that need another look.

first off, his new fair...the problem with his new fair is that its a really awkward move to actually land...its like mewtwos shadow claw, right? I play mewtwo ALOT in melee so I know how he works, and its very difficult to land without DJCing it first just due to the angle and the relatively low ground to air momentum (ex. High ground to air momentum - falcon. Low ground to air momentum - bowser. Im sure you get the picture) that both chars have.

so, I think zard really needs a "pseudo" djc - make his glide cancel have instant recovery in the air (and no helpless state ofc). What this means is you can inititate your glide in the air at any point to cease height gain, and then cancel it to effectively DJC again.

now I would like to add that due to the lack of helpless state, there would have to be a strict limit on down b usage, so you couldn't use it again afterwards, similar to gaw's Up B. But I don't think that would be much of a problem.

the pseudo DJC isn't ONLY for his fair of course, but that was the train of thought that led me to the conclusion. I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks about this idea.

Zard needs buffs if he's expected to compete with the Falcos and Zeldas out there lol. General consensus puts charizard near the bottom of every list I've seen so far, which for one speaks volumes about how well balanced the rest of the cast is, but for someone who prefers the air like charizard, his crippling lack of mobility is what will stop him from really being a dominant force (ALL aerial characters require very good aerial mobility to be good, those without aerial mobility even with good aerials will suffer (see ddd in brawl, gaw in melee)).

In addition to this (just throwing this on the end because I don't have an essay to write about this part like I did for the djc lol), his Bair REALLY should autocancel off a short hop. I was very surprised when I found out it didn't o.O seems like a no brainer lol. If ICs, Mario, and Jiggs all get it, Zard really needs it too.

 

[odinNJ]

what yall think about weeg. wavedash seems smaller than melee, or maybe thats just the way it looks

 

[leelue]

carroll this isn't a YLYL thread

After looking that up and putting the meaning together with your post, IL

a)
I'd like to take a second to talk about Charizard for a bit, because I main him and he seems to be receiving a lot less attention than most of the cast...

b)
his Bair REALLY should autocancel off a short hop. I was very surprised when I found out it didn't o.O seems like a no brainer lol. If ICs, Mario, and Jiggs all get it, Zard really needs it too.

a)
He's receiving plenty of attention. Most of it involves pointing and laughing.

b)
what do those characters have to do with charizard? I'd like Sonic and Ganon to autocancel their bairs too, but just because other characters can doesn't mean that they should.

 

[leelue]

Ignore the double post.
You will ignore the double post.
You will love the double post.
But you won't know that the double post is there...

 

[Pyrostormer]

Its in terms of how the characters are played

Sonic and Ganondorf - Lots of forward approaching movement, rushing in with safe aerials on shield, crossups and shield pressure. They make their own spacings. You fair someones shield with ganon anywhere, doesnt matter.
ICs, Mario, Jiggs, Charizard - Lots of poking at shields from long range with aerials as opposed to rushing through haphazardly, these are the characters that need AC aerials, because otherwise their main spacing tool would be unsafe and similarly they would suck (hey look at charizard all the way down there). You don't see these guys rushing in the same way you would ganon or sonic.

 

[leelue]

Its in terms of how the characters are played

Sonic and Ganondorf - Lots of forward approaching movement, rushing in with safe aerials on shield, crossups and shield pressure. They make their own spacings. You fair someones shield with ganon anywhere, doesnt matter.
ICs, Mario, Jiggs, Charizard - Lots of poking at shields from long range with aerials as opposed to rushing through haphazardly, these are the characters that need AC aerials, because otherwise their main spacing tool would be unsafe and similarly they would suck (hey look at charizard all the way down there). You don't see these guys rushing in the same way you would ganon or sonic.

Fair enough. Somebody who happens to know more than me would have to refute that.

 

[Strong Badam]

ganon's bair auto cancels in a SH and is one of the safest retreating aerials in the game...

 

[Deleted member]

I'm starting to understand why the PMBR doesn't take character balance complaints seriously.

Charizard is fine. Ganon is fine.

 

[Archangel]

Who said Ganon and Charzard are terrible? Honestly there isn't enough people who have the mindset to test an explore. Most who joined melee recently or even brawl have the advantage of reading and see'ing step by step demos of how all the AT's and Combos work for all of the characters. NOBODY seems to have the ability to try, test, and explore a characters potential on their own...

in short quit complaining you whiny little *****.

 

[JCaesar]

Everyone needs to understand that we aren't making any balance changes to any characters for a looong time, regardless of what people think they "need." Develop the character as they are now. If they are too good/bad, we will find out and fix it, but not without copious amounts of evidence and tournament results.

So who's going to Zenith? I'll see y'all there.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

What you PMBR guys need to understand is your game is completely unbalanced, because all your characters suck and are amazing at the same time. I mean, how does that even work? My scale can't handle it, so it can't keep track of the balance. Therefore, I have no choice but to assume your game is unbalanced. In order to fix this, please replace Ganondorf's Warlock Punch a rest that can be jump cancelled.

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/announcement-8.html
@People that are requesting balancing changes: please read that.

 

[leelue]

Who said Ganon is terrible?
Nobody on the planet

Who said Charizard is terrible?
Lots of people

NOBODY seems to have the ability to try, test, and explore a characters potential on their own...
Blanket statement that ignores the possibility that players have tried and have been unsuccessful thus far.

responses in bold

ganon's bair auto cancels in a SH and is one of the safest retreating aerials in the game...

Pfft. "Facts".

 

[Pyrostormer]

I would appreciate it if people would actually debate my points rather than just lay out blanket statements without any evidence...but what can you expect from smashboards x.x

And believe me, I've been developing the character a lot. That is the only reason I'm accurately able to describe what's wrong with him. I'll have some videos up tomorrow, naysayers can judge then.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Ganon is terrible.

There, done. Who cares if I don't believe it, at least someone's said it now. His autocancel Bair is amazing, I can't believe you didn't know it existed.

As for Charizard, I haven't played as/against him enough to comment.

 

[PEEF!]

I would appreciate it if people would actually debate my points rather than just lay out blanket statements without any evidence...but what can you expect from smashboards x.x

And believe me, I've been developing the character a lot. That is the only reason I'm accurately able to describe what's wrong with him. I'll have some videos up tomorrow, naysayers can judge then.

I will be streaming on the evening of Sunday, May 20th, and I believe that Zard is completely competition-worthy with the big names in Project: M. Feel free to watch. He is one of my favorite characters and I am surprised to see him as one of the less-favored characters in the Demo.

http://www.twitch.tv/peefsmash << Tune in this Sun. I will be playing the least-played and perhaps least-favored characters of the Demo, Ness, Snake and Charizard. I make no promises about Ness as I have never really played him, but Snake and Zard were two of my top 4 that got released, so I will be more than happy to try to help out/demonstrate with them.

 

[leelue]

but what can you expect from smashboards x.x

I'm not taking sides, but statements like this don't exactly make people go "you know... he's right. Let me be constructive."

I'm merely trying to be helpful as so you don't come off in a bad way.


Raph- Me too. Maybe I do it and don't notice. Meh.

Peef- who were you expecting, then?

 

[PEEF!]

Peef- who were you expecting, then?

I completely expected Ness to be neglected, as there was almost no community behind him in Melee, and he has been in Lucas' shadow in P:M. Lucas is just the cooler and newer puppy so that is to be expected. I have no idea how my attempt at Ness will fare, but I can DJC pretty well so I'm looking forward to it.

But like I said, I will be trying to pay him a bunch of attention along with Snake and Zard.

 

[Pyrostormer]

I'm not taking sides, but statements like this don't exactly make people go "you know... he's right. Let me be constructive."

I'm merely trying to be helpful as so you don't come off in a bad way.

I appreciate it, really.
But that's just furthering my point =/

Smashboards is a place where my post is considered "destructive" and this:

in short quit complaining you whiny little *****.

is totally okay.

But whatever, nitpicking.

Anyway...I would REALLY appreciate it if people would actually honor my points (lol I have to say that a lot), and debate about the validity of making some of the changes I suggested instead of getting defensive at the suggestion of them x.x please! This is a forum, not a circlejerk.

 

[leelue]

I appreciate it, really.
But that's just furthering my point =/

Smashboards is a place where my post is considered "destructive" and this:


is totally okay.

But whatever, nitpicking.

To be fair, Archangel (formerly known as Spam_Arrows) used to get a Lot of **** for his demeanor. I don't know what happened to that...
Oh right we had a huge rash of semi-aggressive posting for a week or something like that and have since stopped riding people so harshly for their manners. At least that's how I envision it to be.

I would give input on charizard if I had any deep knowledge about the character. The best I can give you is Peef (who claims to know him well enough).

It's the plan of the guys upstairs to not take in a lot of character based criticisms for a long time. They want to give the characters time to evolve, and in their eyes not enough time has. Especially if they are to consider something that effectively changes the character by a lot.

 

[Pyrostormer]

I can understand that point of view. Really, I can. This game is a great piece of work, and in order to respect it "properly" it would only be fit to let the metagame evolve. And it will, but that is only something that can happen through the passage of time. Does that mean we should hold off on discussing anything until we've reached some unknown "critical point" where our understanding of the game is satisfactory? I really don't think so, which is why I'm choosing to bring up some of the issues I'VE noticed about my character - in hopes of talking them through with other people and reaching a conclusion on their acceptability.

After all, sooner or later, there WILL be a demo 3 (or a final release, whatever comes first). There will inevitably be changes. Any game with balance patches will have players debating what should be changed, and if you TRULY respect Project M I don't see how it would be any different here.

edit: I don't think either of my suggested changes are particularly big ones - AC bair is just giving it the proper frames. The glide cancel having no (or very few) recovery frames is a bigger change, but I think if they tried it, they'd really like what it did for the character anyway. Just MY opinion, of course.

-stingers

 

[leelue]

I can understand that point of view. Really, I can. This game is a great piece of work, and in order to respect it "properly" it would only be fit to let the metagame evolve. And it will, but that is only something that can happen through the passage of time. Does that mean we should hold off on discussing anything until we've reached some unknown "critical point" where our understanding of the game is satisfactory? I really don't think so, which is why I'm choosing to bring up some of the issues I'VE noticed about my character - in hopes of talking them through with other people and reaching a conclusion on their acceptability.

After all, sooner or later, there WILL be a demo 3 (or a final release, whatever comes first). There will inevitably be changes. Any game with balance patches will have players debating what should be changed, and if you TRULY respect Project M I don't see how it would be any different here.

That has been something of a point of contention, and it's something that's difficult to answer. Any timeline that they've given is in a sense arbitrary, but they are right to ask people to wait some time. I mean, just so long as they don't suppress talk for 2 months and then release demo 3 in 2 months and a day... it's not so bad.

The way it is now, they give the game a chance to evolve the way it is, and after some point of time has passed, then people's opinions will be more valid. It's possible that you've put in 2 months worth of work into your character already (I say that I have with mine), but it's also possible that it may take someone else the full two months to make a breakthrough or win a tournament.

AC bair is potentially big if it makes the move suddenly amazing (which it might), thereby giving him a safe, long-range option that skews matchups. I'm spitballing here, not making claims.
Psuedo DJC, the way I imagine it to work, is very huge. His Uair would eat that for breakfast.

Edit

All I remember is that it has to do with side-bing directly out of hitstun. It's been fixed, regardless.

this got lost. How does it work in your version.
Details are necessary.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Sorry, I was thinking "big" in terms of the amount of coding effort required to make the change lol. Yeah, they'd both help, but that's the point =p AC bair I don't think would change MUs, the moves fairly low lag already anyway after an L cancel. The only reason AC is necessary is because Charizard as a character really needs the mobility that the AC offers.

And tbh, I'm having a really hard time gauging how much of an effect the pseudo DJC would have. It could make him broken, it could just help him a little bit with approaches....I just don't know. Thats a change that changes a bit too much to measure through theory alone.

 

[Archangel]

responses in bold



Pfft. "Facts".

To be fair, Archangel (formerly known as Spam_Arrows) used to get a Lot of **** for his demeanor. I don't know what happened to that...
Oh right we had a huge rash of semi-aggressive posting for a week or something like that and have since stopped riding people so harshly for their manners. At least that's how I envision it to be.

I would give input on charizard if I had any deep knowledge about the character. The best I can give you is Peef (who claims to know him well enough).

It's the plan of the guys upstairs to not take in a lot of character based criticisms for a long time. They want to give the characters time to evolve, and in their eyes not enough time has. Especially if they are to consider something that effectively changes the character by a lot.

hmm....there is no easy way to put it. What I was trying to say in a very polite way is that you so bold make statements about a characters position and balance based on a game that has been out for exactly 1 month. How long did it take any of the top 15 characters in melee to reach the level that they are played currently? Yesterday I played someone who mastered DACUS in project M and he applied it in ways the reshaped the way I looked at certain characters entirely. A great deal of people say Zard is not good based on their first impressions and their own limited abilities technical or mental. Same things goes for ganon but the fact still remains that it has been 1 month.

Now lets go back in time to competitive melee's start. Some character's potential was seen early. Fox/Falco/Sheik remain near the top even today and have always been there. however characters like Falcon, Puff, IC's took years to establish themselves. Even in recent years you see various shifts like the sudden emergence of Yoshi's and Pikachu's that have shown what characters once thought fail tier can do. The of course their are various characters who have fallen since the first tier lists. Mario, Zelda, Samus, Marth, Ganon, Doc...etc where all at one point considered ABOVE puff. It wasn't until a man by the name of Dan started using Jigglypuff well did peoples eyes start opening. Now...do Ganon and Zard have THAT kind of potential hidden somewhere...who knows. But surely arguing that their potential doesn't exceed the average E tier character with only a months worth of playing is just something I don't take seriously. As someone who oversaw the development of melee of years and still continues to watch it develop...I find it hard to believe that you've seen all their is to see in a Month's time.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Actually, I've spent 30 years playing PM. You know what they say, a day in the world is worth a year in the... I'm sure you know the rest.

 

[Strong Badam]

stingers, for the record archangel's post was not okay

we appreciate your feedback but our response will in general be "cool. let's see how the character does in tournament." i'm not 100% convinced that every character in PM demo 2 is competitively viable and balanced, but at the same time the feedback of one person is not going to cut it to induce a change. if you read the announcement I linked to, you'd know that we plan on monitoring tournament results, usage, the metagame, counterpick data, etc. and plan to use this information to balance future versions of the game. feedback will be used as well but as the announcement says, if a character is lacking then it'll be fairly apparent after a couple months. we have playtesters and designers that understand how to address a character's weaknesses (see: Ness, G&W, DK, Bowser), so I think we'll handle it.

to the rest of you, i don't disagree with your intentions but your responses were at times needlessly condescending. not everyone has read our plan before.

@leelue: the sideb functions as you would expect. you don't fall down retardedly quickly, it functions like a normal sideb would.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Wait, we have a plan? Do you have a link to the full plan, or something? Because I haven't seen a big post outlining it.

 

[odinNJ]

thats part of the plan

 

[leelue]

. How long did it take any of the top 15 characters in melee to reach the level that they are played currently?

characters like Falcon, Puff, IC's took years to establish themselves.

This argument is somewhat valid, but neglects the fact that melee was brand spanking new in terms of everything it had to offer. PM is melee supercharged turbo 2.0, but underneath it's not so vastly different that we need a half-decade to figure things out.

I am not saying that a month is enough time (nor am i saying that it it isn't), I'm just tired of seeing this argument without that disclaimer.


@SB
Ok, then I'll stop exploiting the malfunction. Sadface.

Also this shield poke is unbelievable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=8ldpM3MgVmg&t=1m10s
That's as full a shield as you can get, pretty much. I had my shield up for what appears to be about 18 frames (from full raising of the shield to moment of impact)

 

[Youngling]

I think changes should be made to the game in only the most extreme circumstances. A metagame just won't develop at all of there are changes to
characters, even minor tweaks, which is why brawl+ never caught on. Although it was fun and something new, I went back to melee after about a month when a new set would come out every 5-6 days. It'd just get irritating, especially when you had just become comfortable with a character and its MUs


Edit: by the way, I really hate comparing the two games as they have nothing in common besides the fact that they're hacks of brawl, but I thought this was relevant