Project M Social Thread

[9Kplus1]

Sorry, allow me to clarify: Fox has one of the most predictable recoveries. Almost every character in the game can punish his recovery well so that makes it bad to some levels. C. Falcon can travel huge distances but his recovery isn't considered good due to the edge guard factor so why not Fox? I will admite garbage was a poor word choice, its more like a middle of the road recovery.

falcon can't mix up his recovery to the extent that fox can. between angled fire foxess and shortened phantasms, it's actually not that easy to predict fox's recovery and punish it accordingly. falcon on the other hand has to sweetspot the ledge in a lot of mus (don't why you aren't using ganon as an example instead) making it painstakingly easy to determine how to edgeguard him.

You missed the point. ANY MU COULD BE PLAYED HOWEVER PEOPLE LIKE THEM. i was illustrating that Falco400 cant assume that matches between Fox and Falco will always be short, and then matches between Falco and Puff could vary. BOTH COULD VARY. There are no rules on how to play any MU. Saying this does not magically prove that recoveries don't affect match length.

i tottally missed the point, that's why I said the exact same thing, in order to make it relevant to that part of your post. besides that, i explained most of the mu and why puff's recovery doesn't determine how long it can be. reading is fundamental y'know.

Good point. I should've mentioned that character weight is also a huge factor on how effective a recovery is to begin with. Pichu would die incredibly fast beause he is very light but isn't as floaty as most other chars so he isn't as hard to combo as say Samus or Puff.

not to sound like a total ****, but are you ********?? pichu will lose fast because pichu is ****, not just because he's light.

The potency of his recovery is limited because him being knocked off stage is going to happen a lot faster than Samus or Peach. Samus and Peach don't actually have to start using their recoveries until much later whereas Pichu will start getting knocked off at mid percents. Of course his match would be shorter.

again, have you considered that pichu is just a bad character with terrible match-ups vs the entire cast? his recovery is very good, but you know, if someone knows how to play the mu, pichu won't get the chance to abuse it. same goes for peach / samus.

But why? Why would it affect match length? What factors in the MU? Is How people play the game? Well that is a weak argument because it incredibly relative as stated earlier.

what factors in the mu? how about which character is bad against / weak to what the other character can dish out? marth can **** up falco with his mexican grabs to early gimps; falco can't sit there and laser marth all day because powershield grab melts whatever falco can go. falco's recovery is p. bad, but that means that this mu can go on for a long time if both players go about their business reeeeeeeeeeaaally carefully. by the ongoing logic, p:m should give every character awesome recovery in order to make mus shorter.

My point is that saying fox vs falco is a fast match time due to their physics, and then saying that two characters with great recoveries and floaty physics have a slow match, but then state that it has nothing to do with recovery is a contradiction.

um, ok. lemme not exaggerate this time. samus and peach don't kill as well as the average mid-high tiers and if both players choose to play defensive enough, neither character will be offstage in a bad position as often as say, two combo / gimp heavy characters like falco / fox / marth.

MUs could be played in any way possible, this is not a constant, thus it is not an argument.

holy ****, stop being dumb. the same can be said for good recoveries -- they're not consistent either. THEREFORE RECOVERIES AREN'T VALID IN THIS ARGUMENT RIGHT???? thanks for proving my point

However, match limit and MUs are affected by what kinds of tools the player has, and their physics and recovery play a huge role in this. If matches with Falco will be short due to his fast falling speed, low weight, and bad recovery, then conversely, samus will have a long match die to her floatiness, high weight, and good recovery.

huh? falco is a glass cannon while samus can ccdsmash damn near everything and actually feel safe in her shield with screw attack. their general playstyles differ greatly (no, they play defensively pretty differently), so why would you compare them??

But since Falco's physics and recovery are unfavorable offstage, he has a shorter match? Can you possibly attempt to admit the reason for why matches are short vs long?

hax can make a match pretty long with falcon if he decides not to approach; pp loves to play defensively afaik; taj's m2 plays defensively as well. match length is dependent on tons of factors, but player choices play a huge role in the duration of a match. falco has pretty bad recovery, but can lengthen any match to the full eight minute if he camps enough. fox has really good recovery, but doesn't have to abuse it in order to make a match really long; fox can just run around and dd / laser camp all day if the player using him chooses to do so. puff is an all-around defensive character, so of course her matches are going to be p. long, gimps are just less likely. unless the character playing against puff solely relies on gimps to win, the length of the match won't be affected that much.

Make Samus a fast faller and remove her down-b recovery option and see if her matches are the same length.

well, she'll be more susceptible to combos and won't ruin frame advantages as often, which is great for falcon, falco, etc, but samus can cc stuff better and get to platforms more safely with screw attack. also, samus still has two p. good recovery options to choose from as well as projectiles to clear to ledge with. removing bomb jumping would shorten matches because it takes a ****ton of time to do.

wtf? Do get what i said?

yes, i do. recoveries aren't the only factors that help characters in brawl get back to the stage. it's not as if i said "omg recoveries are guud but they're irrelevant to recovering", because that's obviously not the case. auto-snapping ledge grabs and 'magnetic' ledge grab length are what a lot of characters abuse when recovering.

I said in Brawl you dont generally kill someone unless your hit knocks them into the blast zones without question. Which doesnt happen until like 150% and you eat a fsmash. Momentum canceling won't stop you from hitting that blast zone outright.

you're referring to hitstun and gimps, no? that's cool because i was doing the exact same thing. almost every character in brawl risks getting gimped when they're far offstage, but that won't happen very often at lower %'s since they can get out of hitstun earlier and momentum cancel.

If you dont hit characters straight into the blast zones, most to all characters in Brawl will recover. This doesn't happen in melee. You can fsmash falco, or ness, or bowser at like 90% and even though they don't hit a blast zone, they still may not be able to recover.

You're giving examples of characters with bad recoveries to prove your point. Ok, so vbrawl link and ganon die if they get hit offstage at 90%~ as well -- oh look, point proven.

Thus they die at way lower percents because of the inability to recover, which is something that is good about melee.

they can't recover because they have bad / mediocre recoveries ?_?

edit: i'm very sure that the pmbr knows what they're doing. considering that this project has been in the making for over a year, it's safe to assume that something as important to melee**** as match length would've been fixed and messed around with ten times already.

 

[iLink]

that's a point, in brawl you can do an arial to reduce your momentum meaning that you live longer (a less extreme version of bucket breaking). Has this been fixed yet in PM or is that what magus is working on?

That doesn't work in p:m because there is actually hitstun so you can't use an aerial lol

 

[Revven]

Has this been fixed yet in PM or is that what magus is working on?

Um... yes, it's been fixed since day 1.

 

[jalued]

That doesn't work in p:m because there is actually hitstun so you can't use an aerial lol

no, i realize that hitstun will mean you cant do it as early, but does it still have a small effect?

 

[Yeroc]

I guess technically it does, but it's too small to notice. Usually at high damage you don't come out of hitstun until you've almost returned to normal airspeed.

 

[jalued]

I guess technically it does, but it's too small to notice. Usually at high damage you don't come out of hitstun until you've almost returned to normal airspeed.

thank you

 

[Deleted member]

i think fox's recovery kinda sucks in this game. for whatever reason a LARGE amount of moves that hit him off stage hit him in such a way that after the stun and a second jump, the full height of the second jump doesn't put fox at or above the edge, so he HAS to up B and can't really side B unless the opponent hits him up. the lack of options is a huge blow for fox and makes him super terrible at recovering. that and all the brawl characters have stupid good recoveries so it's easy for them to go off stage for gimps and still expect to live.

i think falco has these same problems, but he's also still falco. fox can't dominate on-stage the same way falco can.

 

[9Kplus1]

iirc, the physics of Fox's jumps are off in P:M. Things like jumping from the ledge to a platform or the 'bread and butter' Uthrow --> Uair are pretty weird to do. Though, maybe that was fixed already and I'm just being dumb again .-.

EDIT:

No, i'm not reffering to gimping at all. I'm saying that the vast majority of KO's in brawl happen by hitting the side and top blast zones. BUT THIS ONLY OCCURS AT AROUND 150% BCUZ YOU CAN DO ALL THOSE THINGS YOUR REFFERING TO IN ORDER TO STOP YOURSELF FROM HITTING THEM.(momentum cancel, bucket break, abuse ledge snap) Where in stark contrast, in melee a large amount of KO's happen at the bottom of the screen because either they get gimped(which is more prevelent in melee),edgehogged or a character can't outright recover to the edge.

They will recover ez pz. THIS IS THE PROBLEM IN BRAWL, CHARACTERS RECOVER FROM BEING THROWN OFF STAGE, THEY ONLY DIE WHEN THE FORCE THAT KNOCKS THEM OFF(fsmash, dsmash w/e) IS ENOUGH TO CAUSES THEM TO HIT THE SIDE OR TOP BLASTZONES, WHICH ONLY OCCURS AROUND 150ish PERCENT OTHERWISE THEY MOMENTUM CANCEL OR WHATEVER AND RECOVER EZ PZ.

I said MOST brawl characters can make it back ez pz. I'd say like 31 of the 37 characters can make it back on stage after taking a fsmash at 90% fairly easily. Where in melee maybe 10 of the 26 characters could get back without much trouble. Just using these arbitrary numbers, in Brawl 81% of the characters could survive that fsmash where in melee 38% can survive that.

Commenting on the bolded first* Ledge snap range has nothing to do with staying out of the blast zone. It's a major part of recovering, but definitely not something that anyone would be able to abuse in order to stay away from the blast zones after getting hit by an attack.

Now, regarding the rest of the quotes, you completely missed my point. Your argument -- and by all means, correct me if I'm wrong -- was that Brawl characters' overall better recovery greatly lengthens match duration, which is not really correct. You have to also consider every method of survival a player can use without using their character's recovery. vBrawl Fox can Uair ---> reverse laser in order to effectively momentum cancel, lengthening his survivability already. Whether or not Fox recovers at the point is completely up the awareness of and the options that the other player has; however, Fox managed to at least survive with momentum canceling alone while maintaining the OPTION of using his recovery options. A character's recovery obviously plays a huge role in recovering, but keep it closely in mind that a large portion of the cast has many other options to use. Recovery alone, in both Brawl and Melee, does not affect match length as much as people have been saying.

I know the physics are completely different in each game, but that isn't the point i'm trying to make, the point is you want P:M to have a percentage of characters who can survive that fsmash to be close to 38% not be like brawl where 81% of the characters can survive that and recover easily.

I'm trying to point out that if P:M has a plethora of characters who can recover like jiggly and peach, which alot of Brawl characters do(or did) like rob, pit, mk, charizard, lucas, wario, DDD, snake.

A plethora? Peach, Puff, MK, Samus, and tether characters (wasn't the tether zone diminished in size quite a bit, anyway?) are the only characters with Puff-esque recovery. I don't think that "if" can apply to something that likely won't be changed much. Though, I can agree that 80% of the cast have really good recovery options wouldn't really fit the Melee feel.

This will cause characters to live longer, because they aren't dying when they get thrown off stage.

No. No it won't. Characters with very good recovery options risk losing quickly just as much as a character with piss poor recovery.

 

[Xebenkeck]

you're referring to hitstun and gimps, no? that's cool because i was doing the exact same thing. almost every character in brawl risks getting gimped when they're far offstage, but that won't happen very often at lower %'s since they can get out of hitstun earlier and momentum cancel.
No, i'm not reffering to gimping at all. I'm saying that the vast majority of KO's in brawl happen by hitting the side and top blast zones. BUT THIS ONLY OCCURS AT AROUND 150% BCUZ YOU CAN DO ALL THOSE THINGS YOUR REFFERING TO IN ORDER TO STOP YOURSELF FROM HITTING THEM.(momentum cancel, bucket break, abuse ledge snap) Where in stark contrast, in melee a large amount of KO's happen at the bottom of the screen because either they get gimped(which is more prevelent in melee),edgehogged or a character outright can't recover to the edge.

You're giving examples of characters with bad recoveries to prove your point. Ok, so vbrawl link and ganon die if they get hit offstage at 90%~ as well -- oh look, point proven.
I said MOST brawl characters can make it back ez pz. I'd say like 31 of the 37 characters can make it back on stage after taking a fsmash at 90% fairly easily. Where in melee maybe 10 of the 26 characters could get back without much trouble. Just using these arbitrary numbers, in Brawl 81% of the characters could survive that fsmash where in melee 38% can survive that.

I know the physics are completely different in each game, but that isn't the point i'm trying to make, the point is you want P:M to have a percentage of characters who can survive that fsmash to be close to 38% not be like brawl where 81% of the characters can survive that and recover easily.

I'm trying to point out that if P:M has a plethora of characters who can recover like jiggly and peach, which alot of Brawl characters do(or did) like rob, pit, mk, charizard, lucas, wario, DDD, snake. This will cause characters to live longer, because they aren't dying when they get thrown off stage. They will recover ez pz. THIS IS THE PROBLEM IN BRAWL, CHARACTERS RECOVER FROM BEING THROWN OFF STAGE, THEY ONLY DIE WHEN THE FORCE THAT KNOCKS THEM OFF(fsmash, dsmash w/e) IS ENOUGH TO CAUSES THEM TO HIT THE SIDE OR TOP BLASTZONES, WHICH ONLY OCCURS AROUND 150ish PERCENT OTHERWISE THEY MOMENTUM CANCEL OR WHATEVER AND RECOVER EZ PZ.

You don't want a large portion of the cast to have peach/jiggly type recoveries.

Also don't take me for being mad, i'm just bolding what is important lol.

 

[MonkUnit]

Can someone link the highlights of Neko's stream last night? I don't want to watch the entire stream just to see those highlights, lol.

 

[JCaesar]

iirc, the physics of Fox's jumps are off in P:M. Things like jumping from the ledge to a platform or the 'bread and butter' Uthrow --> Uair are pretty weird to do. Though, maybe that was fixed already and I'm just being dumb again .-.

Just the 2nd jump is off currently. It's a landing detection related glitch. We're working on it.

 

[GHNeko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4pnrgqy1Yc

YAAAAAA. I WON THAT GAME MY *** BRO. LET'S GO.

DONT FORGET WHAT YOU DID NEKO. DONT FORGET WHAT YOU DID.

 

[kaizo13]

lol nice Neko

 

[MaxThunder]

Just wanna say something... is't kinda counter-productive to put your argumnts in all caps... it's harder and more annoying to read... and in most cases won't really help in getting your point across...

 

[Akuma2120]

Heh, we actually play about 3/4 of the cast between us. It's just that when we play you, you only play Melee top tiers and you never sandbag and you're godly good at smash in general, so we all feel like we have to stick to our best few characters against you or we'd just get 4-stocked all the time

btw for anyone who's interested, new videos up on my youtube channel, including Link and Lucario, and I've seen how much you guys have been discussing them recently.

Dude, I'm sorry, but you have one of the worst Link's I've ever seen, your use of clawshot and arrows are PAINFUL to watch

And how can you fail bombjump? I can do that forever without a single fail until the bomb kills me, put it this way, if you don't immediately fly off the screen, you should be able to recover with just 1 or 2 bombjumps, with it Link has a good recovery I've survived well over 200% doing that

I like your Wario though

But please, are there any videos of someone who is good with Link?

 

[kaizo13]

Dude, I'm sorry, but you have one of the worst Link's I've ever seen, your use of clawshot and arrows are PAINFUL to watch

And how can you fail bombjump? I can do that forever without a single fail until the bomb kills me, put it this way, if you don't immediately fly off the screen, you should be able to recover with just 1 or 2 bombjumps, with it Link has a good recovery I've survived well over 200% doing that

I like your Wario though

But please, are there any videos of someone who is good with Link?

He never indicated Link was his best character soo calm the **** down

JCz has publicized the majority of the P:M footage out there and keeps us up to date with the latest builds so be thankful for that.

 

[9Kplus1]

Dude, I'm sorry, but you have one of the worst Link's I've ever seen, your use of clawshot and arrows are PAINFUL to watch

And how can you fail bombjump? I can do that forever without a single fail until the bomb kills me, put it this way, if you don't immediately fly off the screen, you should be able to recover with just 1 or 2 bombjumps, with it Link has a good recovery I've survived well over 200% doing that

I like your Wario though

But please, are there any videos of someone who is good with Link?

THE CALLOUT
▲
▲▲
​

But really, that wasn't needed at all. What was really the point in posting that? JC's Link obviously isn't the best in the BR, but he sure as hell has a better Link than you. I honestly hope that you're badly trolling as usual, because judging another player based off of what you've set as a bar is really bad judgement and far from anything close to good logic. I would love to go on about your post, but Shadic and RAQU also play competent Links. Look them up if you really wish to be that judgmental about JC's playstyle -- completely disregarding the fact that P:M vids aren't for the purpose of showing off each player's skill, but rather to show off the project itself for the purpose of drawing even more players to its fanbase.

Beggars can't be ****ing choosers you ungrateful *****

 

[JCaesar]

Sorry I try to play a lot of characters for you guys ...?

My Link may be sloppy but it wins. I beat Azen with that Link

 

[GHNeko]

JC would probably wreck your ****, even if you had P:M day once son.

***** trashes organic meatbags like you.

</pmbr****ride>

 

[PEEF!]

I cant read any post in this thread that is longer than two lines anymore lol. I'd be here all day.

 

[rk-9000]

I cant read any post in this thread that is longer than two lines anymore lol. I'd be here all day.

^Yeah this too

 

[Juushichi]

So, GnW. How does the PMBR feel about the 2D Melee returnee? He's already an extremely unpopular character, bit I've seen JCeaser and cmart use him so far.

I felt he was solidly good in the very outdated demo and from what I've seen of him, he hasn't changed all that drastically.

 

[jalued]

The 2 year anniversary is coming up next month. I wonder if there is anything planned. I hope there is

 

[Strong Badam]

I guess technically it does, but it's too small to notice. Usually at high damage you don't come out of hitstun until you've almost returned to normal airspeed.

It has no effect in Melee or Project M

 

[JCaesar]

So, GnW. How does the PMBR feel about the 2D Melee returnee? He's already an extremely unpopular character, bit I've seen JCeaser and cmart use him so far.

I felt he was solidly good in the very outdated demo and from what I've seen of him, he hasn't changed all that drastically.

He's gotten buffs, but no drastic move changes so they might be difficult to pick out in videos. Mostly he's gotten improvements in his combo ability and kill power (he now has 2 smashes which kill better than Fox's usmash ), though his defensive game has gotten somewhat nerfed as compensation. We're really trying to emphasize his role as a true glass (well, paper) cannon.

 

[Juushichi]

Some of his defensive game? Like what? It already felt like a lot of his options on defense are pretty limited, though CC d-tilt seems like a godsend and probably the obvious up-B OOS.

His throws looked to have lower KB from what I saw of the cmart match. I think I saw him using U-throw the most. I imagine GnW's dangerous smashes are dsmash and usmash?

Fsmash sort of felt like a punisher/very very situational ground-to-air linker and combo ender.

 

[PEEF!]

His shield was made useful so his defensive game is already 10x better than it was.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i agree with you. if you bend over backwards to attempt to balance a game like smash to where 4-6's are the worst match-ups... you're going to have some characters with really obnoxious playstyles and the game won't really be fun to play. that or a bunch of characters that have lots of similarities among them. i can already feel Squirtle being pretty similar to Pikachu in many regards outside of his specials, because there are only so many ways you can make a small character good w/o being fastfallers.

lol

If 7-3 was the worst MU project M had then it would be amazing

Its almost 2012. Who cares about MUs?

 

[JCaesar]

Some of his defensive game? Like what? It already felt like a lot of his options on defense are pretty limited, though CC d-tilt seems like a godsend and probably the obvious up-B OOS.

His throws looked to have lower KB from what I saw of the cmart match. I think I saw him using U-throw the most. I imagine GnW's dangerous smashes are dsmash and usmash?

Fsmash sort of felt like a punisher/very very situational ground-to-air linker and combo ender.

Well we shrunk his shield a bit (not as bad as melee though), and we toyed with the idea of increasing his weight but ended up leaving it at its NTSC value. We also nerfed his recovery a bit by removing the ability to airdodge after up-B (he can still jump though if he saved it).

 

[Juushichi]

Aw. That's a bit sad. I liked the ability to waveland out of up-B, but if his traditional combo game was improved, it sounds like that's an even trade. His WD length and stuff is still the same, right?

He had a really good one in the demo and his dash animation looked pretty ambiguous as well. Though his DD seemed pretty average.

 

[PEEF!]

JCaesar I think he means from Melee.

 

[SNPR]

Streaming with RAQU, QZZY, and L7Junkie.
www.twitch.tv/sniperfox1
A bit of melee first then P:M till the evening.

EDIT: We're done with melee & doubles. We're doing singles now.

 

[Juushichi]

Nah, I'm talking from demo differences.

I've talked to JC about GnW: M before.

 

[cmart]

GnW has all sorts of silly beast combos on the entire cast now. It's just a matter of getting in to get them started, and avoiding the other character abusing the fact that you die in 3 hits.

 

[DVDV28]

So no bucket braking?

 

[JCaesar]

Bucket still stops momentum just like Brawl. It's just that by the time you can use it, you typically don't have much momentum left to cancel.

 

[DVDV28]

Oh right

Also, just out of curiosity, how many characters would you say need fixing still aside from Oli and IC and is character improvements a bigger or smaller issue than developing actual codes at the moment?

 

[Pachinkosam]

any big news?

 

[ph00tbag]

Oh right

Also, just out of curiosity, how many characters would you say need fixing still aside from Oli and IC and is character improvements a bigger or smaller issue than developing actual codes at the moment?

Depends on what you mean by fixing. Technically IC's are the only character that are literally unplayable. Olimar can be used, he just has very few changes made to his numbers from Brawl, and so it's kind of pointless to use him in a Melee-esque context. Other characters have varying degrees of completion, but even a 100% complete character who is not top or high tier in Melee is subject to changes.

 

[I R MarF]

EDIT: Sorry, some stuff got left out somehow....

falcon can't mix up his recovery to the extent that fox can. between angled fire foxess and shortened phantasms, it's actually not that easy to predict fox's recovery and punish it accordingly. falcon on the other hand has to sweetspot the ledge in a lot of mus (don't why you aren't using ganon as an example instead) making it painstakingly easy to determine how to edgeguard him.

First of all, I am shocked by the amount of insulting you did. You sir, are an internet d-bag.

But to the replies, if Fox's 4 way up-b with a slow start up has you fooled, or his linear side-b with an obvious sound cue, then i suggest you learn to counter these "mix-ups" better. (Btw, i said 4 way because i can't think of a situation Fox would go straight down, diagnal up/down away, or straight away)

i tottally missed the point, that's why I said the exact same thing, in order to make it relevant to that part of your post. besides that, i explained most of the mu and why puff's recovery doesn't determine how long it can be. reading is fundamental y'know.

Likewise. So read these words: Using how a player plays an MU as a factor is match length is a weak, no-**** sherlock argument because any player could potentially play any MU however they want. You can only use MU in itself as an argument. Stop trying to use how the player plays as a MU because it has more to do with the player than the character. I'll explain more below.

not to sound like a total ****, but are you ********?? pichu will lose fast because pichu is ****, not just because he's light.

You are so nice! <3

And I'm saying Pichu being light is a factor in match length. I'm not trying to say thats why he loses. He loses because he damages himself, relies to heavily on his non-damaging attacks, has no range, and copious of other bad attributes.

again, have you considered that pichu is just a bad character with terrible match-ups vs the entire cast? his recovery is very good, but you know, if someone knows how to play the mu, pichu won't get the chance to abuse it. same goes for peach / samus.

1. I never said Pichu was a good character.
2. I never said Pichu's match lengths are long.
3. Stop using completely player dependent arguments.

what factors in the mu? how about which character is bad against / weak to what the other character can dish out? marth can **** up falco with his mexican grabs to early gimps; falco can't sit there and laser marth all day because powershield grab melts whatever falco can go. falco's recovery is p. bad, but that means that this mu can go on for a long time if both players go about their business reeeeeeeeeeaaally carefully. by the ongoing logic, p:m should give every character awesome recovery in order to make mus shorter.

MUs are determined by 3 things: 1. Character 1's pros/cons. 2. Player 2's pros/cons. and 3. their ability to use their tools against the other player.

The first two parts are constant and exist in every MU those characters would be involved in. So if falco's cons are his fast falling speed and short ranged recovery, then its been predetermined and expected that he would be easier to kill in all of his MUs. Thus, they affect match length.

The 3rd part is entirely player dependent. The tools they have against the opponent are not constant.

um, ok. lemme not exaggerate this time. samus and peach don't kill as well as the average mid-high tiers and if both players choose to play defensive enough, neither character will be offstage in a bad position as often as say, two combo / gimp heavy characters like falco / fox / marth.

Again, the with the incredibly player relative "choice" argument.

holy ****, stop being dumb. the same can be said for good recoveries -- they're not consistent either. THEREFORE RECOVERIES AREN'T VALID IN THIS ARGUMENT RIGHT???? thanks for proving my point

Holy ****, stop being an ***. Players have NO EXCUSE to be bad at their recovery when it only benefits them. Recoveries are assets, play styles are variables. They are two completely different concepts.

huh? falco is a glass cannon while samus can ccdsmash damn near everything and actually feel safe in her shield with screw attack. their general playstyles differ greatly (no, they play defensively pretty differently), so why would you compare them??

They don't "play defensively". Players play defensively. They are two characters with opposite physics.

hax can make a match pretty long with falcon if he decides not to approach; pp loves to play defensively afaik; taj's m2 plays defensively as well. match length is dependent on tons of factors, but player choices play a huge role in the duration of a match.

Yes it does, thats why it isn't an argument against recoveries and physics not affecting match length.

falco has pretty bad recovery, but can lengthen any match to the full eight minute if he camps enough.

This proves my point that player choice isn't a valid argument against match length or disproving recoveries affect on match length because its a variable.

fox has really good recovery, but doesn't have to abuse it in order to make a match really long;

A fox wouldn't be trying to make the match long, the player would be trying to not die.

fox can just run around and dd / laser camp all day if the player using him chooses to do so.

Yes he or she could.

puff is an all-around defensive character, so of course her matches are going to be p. long, gimps are just less likely. unless the character playing against puff solely relies on gimps to win, the length of the match won't be affected that much.

Puff isn't a defensive character. Her physics just favor defensive play. Players are either defensive or offensive.

well, she'll be more susceptible to combos and won't ruin frame advantages as often, which is great for falcon, falco, etc, but samus can cc stuff better and get to platforms more safely with screw attack. also, samus still has two p. good recovery options to choose from as well as projectiles to clear to ledge with. removing bomb jumping would shorten matches because it takes a ****ton of time to do.

What about shffling? Wouldn't that giver her more offensive options with her great aerials?


Conclusion:

It seems to me that you believe variables are a valid argument for deciding match length. That is true, but you must also realize that this doesn't disprove physics and recovery as being important to determining match length. The sheer fact remains that there are constants that state certain characters can be KO'd easier than others and these characters will have shorter match times.

Good day, and take a break from being so mean, will ya?