Project M Social Thread

[Evilagram]

Cool, though I'm in Canada. But I'll do search

I'm pretty sure it's legal in all first world countries, and nobody cares about copyright in the third world.

 

[CORY]

ouch, that's a harsh thing to say about canada.

 

[Vigilante]

ouch, that's a harsh thing to say about canada.

How? he called it a first world country. XD.

 

[Sneak8288]

I'm knowledgeable about copyright law in the US.

It's perfectly legal to perform any sort of modification that you like to systems that you own as per this section of US copyright law: http://www.copyright.gov/1201/ (AKA, the section that made jailbreaking your smartphones legal.) It's legal in most other countries on the basis that you paid for the damn device, and the damn game, so they can't lynch you for having files you paid for.

As for explaining that nothing is directly installed to the system, that is just a matter of tellin' em real simple-like.

Lol tell that to sony... they are suing george hotz for jailbreaking ps3s to include a feature that was advertised when it first came out. Lol but now they are getting attacked by anonymous

 

[Ecks]

He purposely misinterpreted lol

I hadn't seen any recent streams or videos and when I saw standardtoaster's stream I was really surprised. It really does look alot like melee O_o

Edit: That really sucks sneak. I'm really thankful to geohotz for jailbreaking the idevices. I would have switched a loong time ago if I couldn't do anything with apple's crappy stuff.

 

[Vigilante]

My appeal:

Greetings. A while ago, I tried to launch a discussion about « Project M », a Super Smash Bros Brawl mod that allows one to improve some of the gaming mechanics of the game, at least from the viewpoint of a tournament player, and I was censored for I believe, unreasonable reasons. I don’t think the moderator has any ill will, but I think he was misinformed.

The moderator had two arguments:

1) This is illegal.
2) It requires you to modify your Wii.

My counter-argument :

1) No Canadian law states that it is illegal to modify a possession one owns. However, it is illegal to use “USB loader” and to play copied games. Project M comes in two options: Gecko OS, a system that does not permit playing games via USB, and Riivolution, a system that allows it, but that requires one to install USB loader, which is not submitted with Project M. The mod requires a copy of brawl and measures are taken to prevent it from veing used with the Dolphin emulator and USB loader (although it is technically possible, but it is fairly complicated and needs techniques most people would not understand). Furthermore, the development team has a policy to not support piracy. Thus, form a legal standpoint, this mod is no more illegal than a Rainbow Six mod.

2) The exists an installer that does not require you to softmod your Wii called “Hackless Wii”. In short, the game loads Gecko OS from the SD card, leaving no trace on your Wii. In other words, it is absolutely impossible for Nintendo to detect it because the Wii is not modified at all. Result: no risk.

I bring this pont because this mod is becoming a growing alternative to Brawl and Melee in American tournaments and will become the most competitive version of Smash Bros since quite a while. I’m interested in hosting a tournament in this convention because I believe that it could help the cause. I would like to help the Quebec scene grow and promote it, of course, witht he condition that I only talk about the “hackless version”.

I think we have to see the difference between a mod and a crack. A mod enables modification of a game’s content. This is no different than attaching plush die on your car’s mirror. Or changing your wallpaper on your PC. A crack on the other hand permit on to steal another’s intellectual property.

My goal is not to defy your authority but to appeal to your rational minds and to give you the tools to take a more informed decision.

Sincerely,

~ Maxime.

(Not sent yet. you can comment if you want)

 

[Evilagram]

Lol tell that to sony... they are suing george hotz for jailbreaking ps3s to include a feature that was advertised when it first came out. Lol but now they are getting attacked by anonymous

Sony's only legal case is the EULA on their PSN accounts. Since Geohot technically signed up for one, he's bound by the end user license agreement attached to the service, which includes a clause stating that you cannot mod your system.

No EULA, no problem.

On that note, someone please check the EULA for nintendo's online services.

 

[Slashy]

While not as good as official controllers Monoprice's 5 dollar controllers are pretty good for the price, they even come with a warranty. The control stick doesn't have as great of a grip as the official one. It is easily the best third party controller due to its price and similarity to the original GCN controller.

Have you guys checked eBay? I saw a first party controller for 5 bucks.

Has anyone tried playing with the Classic Controller Pro?

 

[Sneak8288]

Sony's only legal case is the EULA on their PSN accounts. Since Geohot technically signed up for one, he's bound by the end user license agreement attached to the service, which includes a clause stating that you cannot mod your system.

No EULA, no problem.

On that note, someone please check the EULA for nintendo's online services.

Even so I think it was kinda wrong for sony to force you to update into losing a feature you paid for and then getting the ips of anyone who ever watched the youtube vid and visted the website about how to jailbreak it.

 

[Evilagram]

1) No Canadian law states that it is illegal to modify a possession one owns. However, it is illegal to use “USB loader” and to play copied games. Project M comes in two options: Gecko OS, a system that does not permit playing games via USB, and Riivolution, a system that allows it, but that requires one to install USB loader, which is not submitted with Project M. The mod requires a copy of brawl and measures are taken to prevent it from veing used with the Dolphin emulator and USB loader (although it is technically possible, but it is fairly complicated and needs techniques most people would not understand).

I was under the impression that Riivolution prevented running from a USB loader, like that was part of the goal in its creation. I'm still pretty sure they don't allow USB loading.

You misspelled "being"

I bring this pont because this mod is becoming a growing alternative to Brawl and Melee in American tournaments and will become the most competitive version of Smash Bros since quite a while. I’m interested in hosting a tournament in this convention because I believe that it could help the cause. I would like to help the Quebec scene grow and promote it, of course, witht he condition that I only talk about the “hackless version”.

You misspelled "point" and "with". Try rewording to, "... this mod is becoming a growing alternative to Brawl and Melee in American tournaments and will soon become the most competitive version of smash available."

I think we have to see the difference between a mod and a crack. A mod enables modification of a game’s content. This is no different than attaching plush die on your car’s mirror. Or changing your wallpaper on your PC. A crack on the other hand permit on to steal another’s intellectual property.

I would make a comparison to mods for TF2, they work in literally, exactly the same way. You put a file in its mirroring location from the game files under the steamapps folder, and it patches in the file at runtime.

 

[Evilagram]

Even so I think it was kinda wrong for sony to force you to update into losing a feature you paid for and then getting the ips of anyone who ever watched the youtube vid and visted the website about how to jailbreak it.

I think it is wrong of them as well, but ps3 hacking has opened up a box of worms in that it has fostered a lot of online hacking, ruining a lot of game's multiplayer. Although I am happy about Modern Warfare 2 getting screwed up (Quake Live player myself).

To a degree I cannot blame sony, but on the other hand, I support Geohot in the legal debate.

I am the type to hack any system I can, but even I would not hack my ps3. If Geohot had not made a PSN account, sony would literally have no case.

 

[JCaesar]

Vigilante, you may want to mention that the Project M team only officially supports the hackless method. You may not have noticed (since the website has been down for so long) but we removed the other options from the download page.

 

[Juushichi]

Slashy, I play P:M with the CCP. It's pretty great... Until I have to use my ****ty gamecube controllers for Melee.

 

[Evilagram]

Vigilante, you may want to mention that the Project M team only officially supports the hackless method. You may not have noticed (since the website has been down for so long) but we removed the other options from the download page.

It only takes a few minutes to adjust for Project M on my end, but why not support riivolution? It just makes sense.

 

[JCaesar]

PR reasons really. We don't care if you want to use Riivo, but it looks more legit and professional to the big gaming sites we've gotten coverage on if we don't encourage Wii hacking.

And if you do already have a hacked Wii, you most likely already know what you are doing and won't have any trouble setting up your SD card to work with your hacks.

 

[Vigilante]

Vigilante, you may want to mention that the Project M team only officially supports the hackless method. You may not have noticed (since the website has been down for so long) but we removed the other options from the download page.

Thanks JCaesar, it will undoubtfully add weight to my argument.

 

[Evilagram]

PR reasons really. We don't care if you want to use Riivo, but it looks more legit and professional to the big gaming sites we've gotten coverage on if we don't encourage Wii hacking.

And if you do already have a hacked Wii, you most likely already know what you are doing and won't have any trouble setting up your SD card to work with your hacks.

Understandable, want to separate yourself from "hackers". Though to be honest, I think we have bigger PR problems than that. Like the perception of brawl mods as turning the game into a bigger version of MUGEN.

The old Riivolution version had an imperfect xml file anyway, wouldn't load the bits on the opening movie due to not having a folder higher than pf. Although I greatly appreciated it loading from a folder close to the root of the drive.

 

[Vigilante]

Okay, so we're not getting Riivolution support at all for the final product? Or would it be possible to get a complete .XML Project M file and codeset for Riivo in the chat? I admit I like Japanese sound effects.

And I can load movies. Just need to add the code.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Well this is balls.

No Riivo support, and you won't release the codeset.

So I guess I don't get to use the patch.

 

[Slashy]

Riivolution is more versatile than GeckoOS. It requires the use of the original game disk to play (even better anti-piracy protection than the disk channel as it can block drive chips as well). For hackers, it allows them to switch between mods easily.

For the competitive scene, it arguably prevents possible cheating as swapping out the SD card could cause a freeze, and you can run the patches over a network to ensure that everyone is getting the same content.

 

[Evilagram]

Okay, so we're not getting Riivolution support at all for the final product? Or would it be possible to get a complete .XML Project M file and codeset for Riivo in the chat? I admit I like Japanese sound effects.

And I can load movies. Just need to add the code.

That seems like a good idea. put those up as additional options for advanced users. And seriously, someone port the melee sound effects and the japanese brsar and add those as additional options. I mean, you don't have to put them on the front page or even the download page, but they should be available for people who want them.

Well this is balls.

No Riivo support, and you won't release the codeset.

So I guess I don't get to use the patch.

Replace the gct you have with the new one, and the files you have with the new ones, ba-da-bing. Instant Riivolution version.

Unless the GCT conflicts, in which case a riivolution compatible GCT ought to be provided for those who need it.

Remember, accommodate to all your audiences where reasonable, and this is beyond reasonable.

 

[Vigilante]

Well, not providing Riivo is one thing, but yeah, at least the .XML would be kinda nice. The rest I can install myself

 

[Supreme Dirt]

The reason is the codeset. Riivo conflicts with the File Replacement Code, causing a crash at load.

I'm too angry at a certain something right now to post too much here right now.

 

[Slashy]

I don't see why GeckoOS would be supported over Riivolution in the first place.

Riivolution opens you up to a much bigger crowd of players.

 

[Xinc]

I suppose Gecko OS is for smaller SD cards like my 512 MB.

 

[Vigilante]

Meh, Riivo file replacement works just fine. I have a .XML that allows replacement of all current P:M things. I can send it to you and it will probably work with the demo 2.

If the full version had stuff like "Stage expansion that doesn't work without a modified .XML" thing, then it would be a bit of a bigger deal.

But for the demo, you can use my .XML I'm sure. Just PM me.

 

[Slashy]

Riivolution works with any SD card size.

 

[JCaesar]

What makes you people think it won't work with Riivo? We don't officially support it, but if you hop on the IRC I'm sure someone could help you set it up.

 

[Vigilante]

Ah, so I guess I can ask for someone to share the XML. I'm sorry, I wasn't clear on whether "not supporting it" meant even in the chat. Thanks for reassuring us.

 

[MonkUnit]

Also, IIRC you can "USB load" with Riivolution. By USB load, I mean use a USB stick like an SD card. Not load the ISO off the USB.

 

[Evilagram]

What makes you people think it won't work with Riivo? We don't officially support it, but if you hop on the IRC I'm sure someone could help you set it up.

Have you considered supporting Riivolution as the official client? It's more stable than Gecko OS, and the latest version is an ELF, so it can be run using SmashStack, making it perfectly compatible with hackless installations. Maybe you could ask the programmer for a special version without the install button to remove that potential for mistakes.

If you're aiming to reduce crashes for everyone, this is a good way.

 

[Vigilante]

Good thing I posted here then, the argument is getting more and more solid.

 

[Revven]

I don't see why GeckoOS would be supported over Riivolution in the first place.

Riivolution opens you up to a much bigger crowd of players.

Uh... no Riivo is definitely a much smaller base of users because of people who lack the actual disc itself to play the game (previously sold it or lost it, but did used to own the game) OR their Wii's laser is broken and don't want to send in their Wii to get it fixed. Riivo doesn't support backup discs or loading the ISO off of a harddrive which is what those kinds of people would use to play the game.

There's also the fact that Gecko OS is a lot more user friendly and takes much less time to set up and get working properly.

Not everyone uses Riivolution like you think.

 

[Evilagram]

Uh... no Riivo is definitely a much smaller base of users because of people who lack the actual disc itself to play the game (previously sold it or lost it, but did used to own the game) OR their Wii's laser is broken and don't want to send in their Wii to get it fixed. Riivo doesn't support backup discs or loading the ISO off of a harddrive which is what those kinds of people would use to play the game.

There's also the fact that Gecko OS is a lot more user friendly and takes much less time to set up and get working properly.

Not everyone uses Riivolution like you think.

Uh, we're not aiming to people with broken lasers or those who lack the disc in our PR efforts. The only purpose this post serves is to indicate that there are people who pirate that do not use riivolution, but we're trying to discourage that, remember?

People in that community are technically proficient enough to get the hack working for themselves anyway

Wouldn't adopting riivolution serve to PREVENT piracy, in this example?

 

[shanus]

No offense to any of you, but calling yourself knowledgeable in copyright law without a JD (and specialty) is a stretch by any means. This isn't a topic any of us are validated in to have any merit in our discussions. Sure you can post analogs to GeoHot, but his case has been in no way smooth, and has had significant financial burden. Everyone on the internet thinks they are experts in everything when you read a few news snippets and segments of a EULA.

I would like to avoid discussion on the topic, as our official stance is exclusively the hackless option. We do not officially endorse anything else, period.

 

[Xinc]

No, I meant easier to use and less space?

 

[Evilagram]

No offense to any of you, but calling yourself knowledgeable in copyright law without a JD is a stretch by any means.

I said knowledgeable, not an expert. I am not saying you should support any method that is not hackless for obvious reasons. I think it is a good move on your part to decide that.

I will however dispute the precise nature of the hackless implementation, as I have written above. Would you agree that line of discussion is free from legal ramifications?

 

[Slashy]

Riivolution isn't that large either. Ideally Riivolution is great for people who happen to have really small SD cards, but don't wish to buy a new one. They can just run Riivolution from Stacksmash and then load their changes from an alternative storage medium.

 

[Xinc]

Can you imagine: A JD in Super Smash Bros. ?

 

[Evilagram]

Riivolution isn't that large either. Ideally Riivolution is great for people who happen to have really small SD cards, but don't wish to buy a new one. They can just run Riivolution from Stacksmash and then load their changes from an alternative storage medium.

Meaning, an FTP server. Speaking as someone whose Wii does not currently have internet access, and I don't have a bloody clue how to set it up to load from an FTP server, I think that is not the best idea for making the process simple for most people. However it still does add versatility for tournaments, and ensuring a lack of interference with the codes loaded.