Project M Social Thread

[Phantom1987]

As pit will most likely lose his up-B.. Could he get something like peach's float with his old Up-B characteristics but obviously without the vertical gain (if its possible, with the wind at the beggining). This way pit could keep his old "wind push" (dunno how it's called >_>) and Wing of icarus cancels technique and have a descent Up-B.

autoquoted because I didn't get a response from the team (yeah, I prolly should use IRC..). I think that WoI was one of the main pilars for pit in Brawl. I don't think it should be completely removed.. I would miss so much those Air gimpings (technically wrong but yeah). For his Up-B he could have something like charizards up-B as someone said before.

I totally agree that his main strengh should be gimping.. Maybe a downsmash like the one YL had in melee could be useful to put your oponents below the stage level.

PD: I'm not requesting nothing, its just an idea. I'm totally ok if the answer is a negative.

 

[iLink]

It's like I'm really watching melee

Just gotta tweak those constants

 

[kaizo13]

i main Falcon in melee and i don't think i like the idea of him having both a longer up-b plus a side-b recovery. He's already a beast on stage, leave him a weakness. But he definitely wasn't the best either so maybe some simpler buffs would be better. (can't think of any off the top of my head.....maybe getting rid of some of that lag when landing from an executed aerial side-b). His up-b needs some work but I'm sure Magus or someone will eventually fix his air control

just my 2 cents but hey, good job on all the progress recently


EDIT: and yea, what happened to toaster TWEAKING ALL THE CONSTANTS tonight?

 

[Sneak8288]

dont worry kaizo... every character you got ***** by in melee will still **** you in project m

 

[kaizo13]

well.....that's good to hear. i love a challenge <3

 

[MonkUnit]

Kaizo13, Dantarion is a bit out of it and doesn't really want to do IC Constants with toaster tonight. There is a small chance we will stream, don't hope for it though. Maybe a better chance tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member]

To continue what Kaizo said,

Something that some falcon players bring up in conversations with me about this game is the reluctance to want an actual sweet spot and the side-b to grab the ledge.

The reason stated was that it changes how Falcon is played offstage and would make him feel too different.

What's the stance on the PM back room and notable players like Darkrain and such?

 

[Shell]

I don't really follow the logic there. If they are afraid of side-b messing up their own recovery game... don't use it?

If they're worried about messing up their Melee Up-B recovery spacing, then just keep using the Melee spacing. It'll still work.

I don't see what there is to complain about. Beyond being simple and effective buffs, they are consistency fixes, making these two moves behave as they should relative to other moves like them. Why does illusion grab the ledge, but not this? What other character can rise above the level of the stage with his Up-B but not grab the ledge?

Almost everyone on the development team uses Captain Falcon to some extent, and no one has voiced any opposition to these simple changes that I know of. I don't believe Darkrain, Tapion, SS, or any other Falcon mains said anything about these two changes when they played, either.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

To add into this, my friends who have played Project M at tournaments say that they very much love the buffed Falcon.

Cheap Peach, a super legit Peach main, says that he's always wanted to main a good Falcon, but a good Falcon was never created. Break the chain!

 

[NeoZ]

Apparently his upB wasn't intentionally buffed, it's more of a consequence of them using a code made by PW long ago that made characters keep more of their air momentum during their upBs, or at least that's what they told me today in the IRC.

I may have gotten something wrong, but from what I understood, that's why it longer, not because they intentionally buffed it.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

But.....

FAlcon WAS good....

Ugh. I don't understand why everyone says that Falcon was so terrible. >_<

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Project M team, this is looking beast as ****! I honestly have a hard time noticing that it isn't melee, thumbs way up.

 

[GP&B]

The air control with Falcon Dive is kind of weird, but the improvements are very nice. Also, I don't see why anyone should be complaining about something that never made sense in Melee (Raptor Boost at ledges not grabbing).

If I were to suggest something to make Captain Falcon a true top tier, it'd be bringing in the SSB64 Falcon Punch. That would be so much fun. Otherwise, I really have no idea. He's got really solid aerials (maybe a slight startup decrease in Dair?). I feel like FSmash could either get a range increase or startup decrease (SSB64 FSmash, haha :D). His tilts are pretty good and so are his grabs. Maybe give a slight boost to Falcon Kick?

I really don't know.

 

[curry9186]

Almost everyone on the development team uses Captain Falcon to some extent, and no one has voiced any opposition to these simple changes that I know of. I don't believe Darkrain, Tapion, SS, or any other Falcon mains said anything about these two changes when they played, either.

Also, in the video StrongBad put up earlier, Darkrain was using sideB to recover a lot. It must not take long to get used to the idea once you use it.

 

[Shell]

I actually tried to give him the N64 Paunch for lulz a couple months ago. Sadly, we couldn't find where the game changes the paunch bird model from invisible to visible, so even after speeding up the animation the bird would come out on the usual frame.

 

[GP&B]

Drat, I was actually going to tweak my set to do that myself, haha. Is there any plans to give some slight buffs to Falcon to make him feel right at the top?

 

[FireBall Stars]

Just think of what didn't make Falcon Top Tier in Melee, I'm pretty sure the PM:BR is having this kind of thinking.

In part, his recovery, it is bad and predictable. He has a little better recovery now and can grab people hanging on the the edge if they don't time well their edgehog.

He needs the Falcon Dive in nearly all the situations that he's recovering, even when let's say, only half of move length was needed; now he can use the Raptor Boost for some of this situations and if it hits, it will be better.

Still, his recovery isn't good, but not that bad as before(this way not losing the weakness of having a bad recovery), with his default attributes and a fixed recovery I would say that he really has a high potencial of being a top character or at least rank very well.

But I don't know if any other tweaks(in the constants or not) would be applied to him as we are in the alpha, so I can't go much beyond theorycraft.

 

[stingers]

if u gave him 64 falcon punch he might be better than fox lol. real talk...

 

[GP&B]

Meh, I don't understand enough about PSA to move timings around, mostly because I don't understand interval units yet. That and I have no idea how you figure out which external file is which when looking at the code and then the models in the file. Got some stuff to look up. Of course, if you couldn't find the Falcon model visibility trigger, I probably won't either.

 

[Shell]

A big part of what made N64 Paunch good in N64 was the crazy hitstun which let you occasionally combo into it. Outside of that context it's still an improvement, but not exactly the same.

 

[GP&B]

I suppose although it also made Falcon linger a little bit in the air so it had a small recovery property. Falcon Kick -> DJ is a bit better for that anyways now.

 

[standardtoaster]

A big part of what made N64 Paunch good in N64 was the crazy hitstun which let you occasionally combo into it. Outside of that context it's still an improvement, but not exactly the same.

That, and it's sfx. FALCUM....PAUNCH!

 

[GP&B]

When sound effect replacement gets just a bit more streamlined, I really want to put SSB64's audience voice clips in. Those were easily the best. Where Melee had the heavy pain whoosh, 64 had the audience.

 

[Rikana]

You recover with Falcon Punch in 64. Rising Falcon Punch is much more effective in 64 than in Melee for many obvious reasons.

 

[genkaku]

64 had killer menus, too. Visibly and Audibly the best, hands down.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I suppose although it also made Falcon linger a little bit in the air so it had a small recovery property. Falcon Kick -> DJ is a bit better for that anyways now.

Double Jump, Falcon Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B.

 

[genkaku]

Double Jump, Falcon Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B.

It's like a freakin' Puff... only gimpable.

 

[Dingding123]

Hmm...I noticed that Pit's still having difficulty being viable and, umm...fun to play as.

SO. Howzabout he has arrows that give good backwards knockback (especially fully charged), but they have limited range (which would be lengthened the more his arrow is charged) as well as less lagtime before you shoot them but much more afterwards? He could then use it to finish combos, but can't spam it anymore. It could be his own little projectile knee.

Also, his sideb needs less lameness as well. How about having it knock opponents upward and have a good amount of stun after its final hit, but also having more lagtime afterwards? But if it hits, it would give enough stun so that he could usually follow it up with stuff. It could be his own little raptor boost.

Just a couple ideas. Take 'em or leave 'em, I guess.

*goes back to lurking*

 

[stingers]

pits dthrow should be like

ganons dthrow

i think he'd be good then

bair kills really early and he has cc dsmash and dtilt is a good move

and I mean hey arrows are always there (they could be sped up a bit tho)

but hes not...BAD

 

[Strong Badam]

you know what's BAD?
Brawl Air Dodge

get on my level

 

[GP&B]

Double Jump, Falcon Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B.

Love that so much.
"We call it, The Punch."

 

[Darkshooter]

When sound effect replacement gets just a bit more streamlined, I really want to put SSB64's audience voice clips in. Those were easily the best. Where Melee had the heavy pain whoosh, 64 had the audience.

Melee SFX + 64 Audience?

 

[Ulevo]

So, why is it people are under the impression Pit's up B needs to be reworked?

I could see incoming arguments being that it doesn't fit the Melee environment, but I mean... Jiggs had six double jumps and a rising pound. Pit's Wings of Icarus were gimpable in Brawl; the moment you touched him he fell and couldn't recover. I'm not implying that that in of itself should be included, but... What is the necessity to rework a characters already suitable recovery when we already have another character with recovery that is substantially better (I won't even bother to remind anyone how good Jiggs is without the ridiculous recovery)?

This also goes for R.O.B. as well. I can understand not wanting a plethora of characters that fly in Project M, but between fixing Meta Knight, Jiggs being the only other factor, and R.O.B. and Pit being the only considerations, is that really necessary? It'd be nice to have some type of flavor in that regard.

I'm not making presumptions about the PMBR's decisions, it just seems to be the consensus on what will be done to those two characters, which I'm not really understanding the necessity for.

 

[JCaesar]

The difference is that Jiggs' "ridiculous recovery" is an important part of her onstage game. That's what we're going for with ROB too.

ROB's up-B was changed to be more useful to his overall game, and to be fast enough to keep up with the Melee pace of the game. Nerfing his recovery was a consideration but not the main reason. Pit's up-B being changed would certainly not be for the purpose of nerfing his recovery, as his current up-B is balls in Melee physics. But nothing has been decided yet.

 

[Stevo]

imo leave the falcon buffs

-they are minor buffs anyway

-it makes his side-b more intuitive (not that newbs are the targeted audience for this, but still, even brawl players will be WTF a couple times if they come over never having played melee much)

-it can only add to his recovery game (which is kinda lacking)

-and I think that a slightly buffed melee falcon is about the power level we should be striving to get every character close to if possible.

despite popular belief, falcon is not that amazing a character choice in melee. He does bring the hype though.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Contrary to popular belief, Falcon is also not that terrible of a character choice either.

Not saying that I don't agree with the buffs though. I like them and they make sense.

 

[Scufo]

Question:

It seems that P:M's general policy is that when a move has been substantially altered or completely changed from Melee to Brawl, such is the case with Falco's shine or Mario's tornado, you change it back to the way it was.

My question is then, what about moves which have been altered in Brawl, but still retain their same basic function from Melee? I'm talking about stuff like Ganon's upB, Luigi's upB, or even Pika's Thunder (with the removal of its height cap). Is "Meleeification" of characters, like what you guys did with Falco, going to be applied across the board? Is Ganon going to get his old ftilt and dtilt back, for example?

Are you guys willing to retain some of the changes made to moves in Brawl in the name of balance (not to say that all those changes actually lead to balance), or is your strategy to completely Meleeify all characters, and then worry about balance later?

Ok I guess that was more than one question but I am curious.

 

[MonkUnit]

The only characters who are going to be "100% melee selves" are the top tiers, IE: Jigglypuff, Fox, Falco, Marth, and maybe sheik. Another reason to change a move is that the move may not work in a melee environment, such as wario, his moveset from regular brawl just didn't seem to fit in a melee environment, hence why it got changed and is a much more canon moveset.

 

[curry9186]

Did the shines regain the endlag from melee that pretty much forced you to JC the move? I remembered that vbrawl shine has next to no endlag on it and I can't tell from watching videos because everyone seems to JC out of habit.

 

[kaizo13]

its kinda obvious that it will be the same as Melee no?

especially since MonkUn1t just stated that top tiers are gonna be "100% melee selves"

come on people, read.....it's good for ya