Project M Social Thread

[humble]

Okay, first we must consider Olimar as a character, and what makes him different.

Olimar is such a bizarre character because he does not engage the opponent himself, but instead utilizes Pikmin in order to fight for him. This makes him unique as a character, and no other character in the game can lay claim to his fighting style.

However, I feel the root problem is that Brawl did not make use of such a unique character or his attributes, because of how his mechanics are built. The problem is that in Brawl, he is only able to attack with them one at a time, forcing them to stay next to him, essentially, it'd be the same as a character with a sword whose attributes change after every attack.

Instead of nerfing him, removing his pikmin, or changing his play style so he is just using standard attacks, I suggest we amplify everything that makes him unique.

He'll need significant changes to fit into a Melee environment, not just changes to knockback angles or his recovery- as a character, he does not fit, and we should explore ways to keep his unique traits while making him work in Project M.

 

[ZeroUnderOne]

Instead of nerfing him, removing his pikmin, or changing his play style so he is just using standard attacks, I suggest we amplify everything that makes him unique.

He'll need significant changes to fit into a Melee environment, not just changes to knockback angles or his recovery- as a character, he does not fit, and we should explore ways to keep his unique traits while making him work in Project M.

Got an example in mind?

 

[Sterowent]

well now, i agree. i don't think much needs to be changed at all, frankly (edit: to his main character gimmick, not moveset synergy or the like). like you said, brawl didn't make use of his very unique traits. however, it did implement them. simply putting some new mechanics to push that which is already instated, like you said, could force him into becoming the character people were waiting for. with that said, he may need a nerf or two. that safe of a grab is awfully ridiculous. keeping the traits of his grab while nerfing its endlag or some such to go with its range shouldn't be out of the question.


edit: for a bad to decent example, see my previous post. not the best, but it's a clear way of expanding his game without changing him entirely.

 

[humble]

The key to the Pikmin games was proper command of your Pikmin to swarm your enemies. Now these are just ideas I'm making up as I go, but might be worth considering.

-
Decrease his Pikmin count from 6 to 4.

Change his Down-B so that it has two variations. Press Down-B, and what he does is call the nearest Pikmin. The Pikmin acts like in Brawl, the difference being that the rest of the Pikmin stay where they were if you don't call them. Hold Down-B, and he orders them into a clump, where they all group around him.

Essentially, you can choose to command the group or command an individual Pikmin. The key is that with the individual Pikmin, he doesn't call them to him, so he manipulates the Pikmin while it isn't close to him. With the Group meanwhile, he can order a large swarm of Pikmin at once, allowing him more coverage and power, at high risk. The problem with attacking with the swarm is this- While the group is stronger (nerfed a bit of course, so it isn't broken) because he orders all his Pikmin away from him to attack, he has no defense on whiff, meaning his opponent can easily punish him.

Pressing Down-B is 1 frame and immediately activates manipulation of the nearest Pikmin, while holding Down-B is his standard Whistle with the super armor to call his Pikmin to him in a group. He can call all his Pikmin to him, then immediately press Down-B and take control of one, to recall the group and have individual control.
----
Change his grounded Side-B, from a throw to a march- the Pikmin move and act in the same manner as the Ice Climber's Ice Block, slowing moving along the ground. The difference is that they latch on when they run into the enemy. In the air, he throws them like in Brawl, however they all move slower through the air, like his yellow Pikmin. When a latched Pikmin strikes his opponent, it has a tiny amount of hitstun, like Samus's jab in Brawl. This means onstage, he'll be able to exploit that tiny window if the player is skilled, and offstage it can interrupt recoveries, knock opponents off the ledge, and stop edgeguard attempts.
----
Give his Grab more endlag, his smashes lower knockback, less damage, and more startup, change his Dtilt with lower knockback, more vertical, and faster startup on dtilt and ftilt. Make Jab1 faster, with earlier jab cancel frames, lower his aerial mobility, increase the size of him and his pikmin, lower run speed.

 

[FireBall Stars]

What about the pikmin in the front of the line after used in a attack (except sideB) don't move to the back but instead to the front, to be used again, this way only being able to use fsmash again when the pikmin come back to him or after using downB.

And with this olimar would have a better tactical control of his pikmins

Possibly reduce his pikmin count to 4 like humble said

Don't know how his UpB would be changed to cover that

 

[ZeroUnderOne]

Could make him footstool his own pikmin swarm haha

Hmm, or make it belay like IC

 

[Sterowent]

i don't know if olimar needs more variation on his spamming, humble. the march stuff gives him better control over his spam, i realize, but giving him more roads on the very likely to be less potent side of him in p:M can only make him go so far. i'm no olimar main, though, so perhaps he has much more in store for his pikmin this time around than just throwing them repeatedly.

i like the idea of oli able to reuse his last pikmin until he literally moves to the next one, fireball. maybe the only way he could switch would be his whistle? that animation might need speed up or IASA into other things, if that were the case. it's pretty fast as is, but i dunno.

upB is another discussion entirely, hahhh


edit:

fair enough.

welp, guess i'll pull some ideas out of my *** here...
how long is an opponent considered 'on fire' after a flame hit? or a water hit? or what have you. maybe olimar could do some strange effect when he chains the right attacks on opponents based on the pikmin they're hit with? aka a stronger hit with a blue pikmin on a flaming opponent, or a weaker hit for a red pikmin on a wet (???) opponent, or a kill hit for a purple on an opponent with a white on them. this would make his sideB more than just a spam move, it'd give incentive to put a pikmin on an opponent, followed by making a short but sweet combo on them.

not the best idea, but there you go

edit: it might be feasible since the pokemon are weak vs. certain elemental attacks. if that can be solved, it could be made a temporary effect on oli's pikmin riddled opponents. maybe?

i'd like to revise this a bit. alright, how's this: assuming it is possible to recognize which pikmin is on an opponent at any given time, how about each pikmin simply has a different effect on how they will be treated by any next attack dealing with other pikmin? i'd like to shut out the type advantages, and simply cut to the interesting side of the principle, since knowing the order of pikmin is important already considering their different features.
so, with that in mind, when a pikmin clings to an opponent, the next pikmin attack knockback would be amplified or tuned down, for killing, comboing, or safety purposes. perhaps blue for weaker, fire for stronger, yellow for electric hitlag (one-sided of course), white for easy kill with purple?
alright, that's not bad.

wonder how many ideas we gotta generate, hah!

 

[humble]

Well it's important to realize also that his use of Pikmin will be heavily limited now by just how much pressure his opponents can apply. Playing against say Fox, he won't be able to just sit there and throw them, Fox'll be on his *** in a second. Even if he lands a latch onto an opponent, now it's main purpose is to give him openings, not to spam them at his opponents. If he lands a latch on Fox as he approaches, but Fox goes in for a multishine combo, maybe Fox getting hit by the Pikmin could disrupt the combo, and then Olimar pops out.

I'd advocate reducing the damage each Pikmin hit does to 1 or 2%. For example, if he latches 4 pikmin on at once with swarm, they'll still only do 4~8%. His grab has endlag, his smashes are weaker with more startup, his tilts are buffed, his pikmin control is enhanced, latching is more useful for regular play but not spamming, I don't think my idea purpetuates his spam game.

Spoiler

My idea is bad, but not for the reasons you gave, I'm just suggesting stuff to get Shanus to respond and tell us why his is better. ;V

 

[Sterowent]

i'm not sure of the ramifications from pikmin that cause hitstun, so i can't comment entirely upon it. however, my point was that his spam in general will be worse in p:M, as is most spam, so simply reinforcing him on only his spam might be a problem. i do understand the hitstun will cause openings, but to what extent will opponents be able to break through this? that side of things has me worried.

the swarm is a bit much for another option on his pikmin latch game, i believe. however, like i said before, i don't know what's best for oli.

Spoiler

yeah, i'm really curious, too! everything i've said probably wouldn'ta happened had he just trumped us early on, hahhh

 

[iLink]

You guys also need to take into consideration how feasible this would be to code :V

Spoiler

Even if the ideas are bad

 

[Sterowent]

yes, i tried. i could only consider that the pokemon, with their various weaknesses/strengths, having an unusual status ailment such as that, could lead to my idea's fruition. but it may be more trouble than it's worth. i'd like a more elegant solution, but when it comes to olimar you'll have to change something about pikmin which is trouble in itself. i'm ready to be proven incompetent again!

 

[GameWatching]

 

[Shadic]

Everybody stop, this conversation is now about the awesome stage.

Hope to see a private P:M release, man.

 

[Sterowent]

egad, someone make a comparison picture already. woah...

 

[humble]

This stage is awesome. Every feature about it is awesome. Except that one. I don't like that one. The rest though, definitely awesome. Awesome.

Boy, this stage is just so awesome. Can we make a fan club for this stage and it's awesomeness? I'd join. Because it's awesome.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Wait, u mean that pic isnt from melee? WTF gamewatching too good. :D

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Maybe it's just me, but shouldn't the islands in the background be more off the screen?

/nitpicking


I LOVE YOU GAMEWATCHING

 

[ruhtraeel]

Just curious, what is going to happen to a lot of people's recoveries? Since Brawl has so many characters with an infinite, such as Metanight, R.O.B (nearly), Snake goes really high added to his claymores, Pit, Charizard, Sonic's B moves and neutral B stall, etc etc

 

[SymphonicSage12]

R.O.B's recovery is nowhere near infinite, especially now with higher meleefied gravity.

 

[Sterowent]

the only one of those i haven't seen dealt with is ROB's. b+ did a lot to prove the weaknesses of those recoveries, and p:M did address the ones that were certainly too good.

sage, ROB's recovery is in fact too good, man. if it were effected by the physics, then it'd simply be a bad recovery, and no one wants that either. i think they were working with a custom way of recovering for him, but secrets weren't revealed.

 

[Rikana]

GameWatching, you're amazing. No lies.

Can't wait for the Fox vertex hack and YS stage.

Edit: Shanus, tell us already. I'm waiting in anxiety.

 

[94teen]

I can't honestly say that I've ever played with a good olimar, and I only played him a few times when brawl first came out. I can see some places that might allow for interesting play, but more information would be helpful.

How easy is it to combo olimar? His camping/spacing/on stage game can be scaled to how easy it is to combo and gimp him, but I really don't know enough about him to judge that.


it seems to me that the biggest problem is inconsistency. different pikmin do different things with different knockback and whatnot, which makes his play more interesting, but a lot more difficult; I know i couldn't really follow which pikmin I had in what order all the time, and the few times I blanked on it I got punished pretty hard.

I feel like the variance makes Olimar unique and powerful, but also incredibly inconsistent, since you might not have consistent combos. Because of that, I think that Olimar could go in a direction where you make the purple/white pikmin less common, and normalize the effect of the red/blue/yellow ones; you could use the idea of making the different elements have different interactions to make that more interesting, but it'd normalize his play more, and make him more consistent.

that's really boring though, so I really hope there's something more exciting in the works.

 

[JCaesar]

ROB's vBrawl recovery is indeed way too good for Project M. Luckily he has a new one that should fit the Melee environment better ^_^

 

[ruhtraeel]

How about MK's/Glides in general? Glide a certain distance then slow down, able to momentum cancel into helpless state? Or take away the ability to aim where you glide?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Metaknight can no longer glide out of his up b.

 

[Anth0ny]

oh god that Yoshi's is way too good. I guess all we're waiting for is Randall and it's good to go?

 

[jalued]

Metaknight can no longer glide out of his up b.

it does lead to a very interesting optional fastfall after his UpB though hahaha

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Now that I think of it, even though it wont be implimented,
I think I thought of a pretty good rob recovery Idea :D
Somthing kinda like pikachu's up B but it only goes up down left and right
And he just does a boost (like his bair animation and dair animation)
When you think of robots and movement you generally think of these crude basic movements ("do the robot" dance ect./ one movement at a time)
maybe this Idea can help with another character or somthing, but thats about it.

*****
also, was that old (gaw style)olimar recovery Idea concidered at all? it was received pretty well from what i remmeber.

 

[Deleted member]

Now that I think of it, even though it wont be implimented,
I think I thought of a pretty good rob recovery Idea :D
Somthing kinda like pikachu's up B but it only goes up down left and right
And he just does a boost (like his bair animation and dair animation)
When you think of robots and movement you generally think of these crude basic movements ("do the robot" dance ect./ one movement at a time)
maybe this Idea can help with another character or somthing, but thats about it.

*****
also, was that old (gaw style)olimar recovery Idea concidered at all? it was received pretty well from what i remmeber.

I dig it. A ROB up-b that causes him to shootup as a rocket as the fire comes from his base. Angle that sucker horizontally in different degrees and that's a legit Melee recovery.

The bair/dair animation keeps with the theme. ROB is a space shuttle now.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Awesome stage. Just add Randall, animate the water, and you have a winner.

Why a private P:M release? Why not release the stage when it's done so we don't have to wait for the year to be over to play on it??

 

[Revven]

A private test, he didn't say the final release would be private.

 

[genkaku]

Ah, Yoshi's Story. I can sleep soundly.
Seriously, wonderful job. You have my thanks at least, GWing.

 

[Shepp]

i have a few ideas for Olimar. I hated the character in brawl but loved the idea behind him and his pikmin.

Fully bloomed pikmin should have a different effect when thrown depending on color. something like....
red - explodes
blue - freezes
white - a leech seed type effect
yellow - stuns
purple - more knock back and durability (basically the same thing just stronger)
fully bloomed pikmin should die after being thrown at an opponent and connecting (shielded or not) except for purples

additionally i dont think pikmin blooming should be based on time but rather the number of successful hits that pikmin has had. Each hit will take it to the next stage of blooming until fully bloomed (kinda like an experience points thing) that way your rewarded for being offensive rather than camping.

/two cents

 

[hotdogturtle]

I dig it. A ROB up-b that causes him to shootup as a rocket as the fire comes from his base. Angle that sucker horizontally in different degrees and that's a legit Melee recovery.

The bair/dair animation keeps with the theme. ROB is a space shuttle now.

You mean like Diddy's but without the charging?

 

[Gindler]

Are the blast zones on Yoshi's still ridiculous?

 

[Deleted member]

You mean like Diddy's but without the charging?

Possibly. Its just a rough conceptual idea of a recovery, but JC says ROBs packing a nice recovery now.

 

[The_Guide]

Out of curiosity, how are Pit's arrows now? With hitstun and MAD, I can imagine them ****** offstage.

 

[DevilKiller]

Olimar's Up B --> Sticks his foot down, and footstools his own Pikmin. One-time use in air only, Pikmin goes straight down and latches on. Unless if it's Purple.

Eh?...

EDIT: Incredibly unoriginal ideas for the fail.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Latching =/= no no

I want latching gone.

 

[Stratocaster]

-I think the ideal Olimar Up B would be to footstool jump on each pikmin, which falls to its death afterwards,. ach boost is kinda sucky, but if you have 3 or 4 it'd be a good one, and kinda look like he was using his pikmin as a staircase to get back to the stage
-make the max 4
-make his grab normal- you know with his hands
-make his pikmin die on contact with the ground when thrown, its like what if peach's turnips returned to her after you threw them? thats ********, reusable in attacks, die when thrown=less spammable
-Olimars sit in their shield a bit much, with upB, grab, and SH side B giving them plenty of options of what to do out of it, nerf those options like I said and he should have more problems on defense, if thats still not enough, make his shield a bit smaller so he can't rely on it so much
-if his wavedash is good he'll become more offensively able and lean towards that

I think all of that will turn olimar more offensive, especially dying thrown pikmin and only 4-- that really cuts down on just randomly thrown pikmin, but this pretty much keeps most of his original design intact

EDIT: I think several people have come up with the footstool thing but its still the best one imo
what if his down B without pikmin had a hitbox on the frame he blows the whistle on the whistle thats like rest but weaker, it'd actually give him a reason to not have pikmin sometimes, but its also kinda stupid i guess, then again rest is a stupid move