Project M Social Thread

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

"Better?" Than what? "Viable?" If you have to divide the character roster into "viable" and "not viable" in the first place, how can you claim balance? That statement says nothing at all.

better balanced than brawl, you can divide that game into viable/unviable

 

[stingers]

yeah better than brawl.

and do you really think you can make every character viable wind owl?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Let's break it down like this:

Pichu against Fox (Melee) vs. Metaknight against Ganondorf (vBrawl)

Which would be the more balanced matchup? ( I honestly don't know)

 

[stingers]

symphonicsage, ganondorf has tricks on mk and pichu has tricks on fox. that's also a really shallow way of looking at it and not at all representative of overall balance...

 

[GP&B]

Would definitely agree that top vs. bottom isn't exactly a great way to measure balance. It has to deal with a number of factors and there's a few big ones that can accurately measure it.

 

[Wind Owl]

yeah better than brawl.

Brawl's "balance" isn't even worth discussing. Of course Melee is better balanced.

and do you really think you can make every character viable wind owl?

Viable? Yes. Top tier? No.

 

[shanus]

Pichu v Fox would be better balanced


See: KDJs pichu lol


anyways, watch the stream!

 

[stingers]

lol well good luck with that wind owl. really hope this project succeeds

 

[5ive]

Pichu v Fox would be better balanced


See: KDJs pichu lol


anyways, watch the stream!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqBPIJPC9Dc

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well I was kind of being facetious and silly anyways, which I guess goes against my own theories. Woops!

Honestly though I guess Melee is more balanced since in both games one of the main keys it spacing, and I feel that more low tiers can space and win against high tiers in melee than in brawl.

Basically what I'm saying is that I feel that in melee, a good Bowser or good Mewtwo is more like to win against a melee fox or falco than a vbrawl ganondorf or vbrawl jigglypuff is likely to win against metaknight. In Melee, there are more options to counterattack and etc. than in vbrawl, where spamming, constant defense and running away are usually better options then playing intelligently. (I'm kind of exaggerating here)

 

[FireBall Stars]

With the amount of great players that you have acess to I would think that the result will be a very balanced game.

Some character that may be seen as horrible in the early beta of P:M may be proven a very good character later by the evolution of its metagame, in a game deep as P:M it may happen very likely, its better to give a time before updating.

 

[Shadic]

melee was better balanced among the viable characters, so I don't actually agree...but whatever.

That's the issue right there.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

Let's break it down like this:

Pichu against Fox (Melee) vs. Metaknight against Ganondorf (vBrawl)

Which would be the more balanced matchup? ( I honestly don't know)

you have 3,000 posts and that's how you look at it
what have you used them on?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

you have 3,000 posts and that's how you look at it
what have you used them on?

I was being facetious, which I already have said.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

That's the issue right there.

it depends where you define viable/unviable in melee, low tier masters have shown us that characters can do well regardless of tier position

 

[SymphonicSage12]

But the fact that the person that is using a low tier usually has to be a "master" to beat a higher tier is indeed the root problem; at least that's what I gather Shadic's logic is. I don't really agree with it however.

I think he's trying to say that no character should have to be played with a lot more skill just to beat any higher tier. I don't really think that ever happens. It's not like it takes no skill to play melee fox or falco. Any character requires lots of skill to play masterfully and perfectly (even with vBrawl Metaknight, there is a difference between noobs and true masters.)

 

[FireBall Stars]

Every character can achieve a high level of metagame, the low tier just need the buffs that will make their gameplays effective enough to be viable. Or buffs that will complement their original gameplays.

I mean, if mewtwo had some buffs on his best attacks and buffs that support his way of play he would've be a much better character.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

A lot of it comes from design flaws, especially on low tier characters. In terms of design, a lot of low tier characters seem to have been given gimmicks that aren't really useful at all, but the developers thought would be "fun" to put in.

Case in point: http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/hidden10.html

 

[FireBall Stars]

Yes, yes.

"Hey let's make Mewtwo use confusion!"
"Yeah, that's an awesome idea!"
"Oh look, the characters can hit mewtwo with a back aerial after confusion :/"
"That doesn't matter! People will find funny mewtwo spinning people around with no reason"
"Oh yeah!"

Things like that

If only confusion at least forced tech chase...

 

[GP&B]

I think the kind of balance that is desired out of this codeset would be (and I made this phrase up on the spot) an "averaged" balance meaning that all characters have approximately the same number of even match-ups, advantageous match-ups, and disadvantageous match-ups. One thing I've noticed from responses to this project about balance is that some people wish for more interesting match-ups to exist where a very skilled player is at a disadvantage versus another.

 

[FireBall Stars]

A bigger variation between matchups would not only make it more interesting but would also add depth to counterpick possibilities and thus give more depth to competitivity. I think that's the best part of a balanced game.

 

[Krautrock]

Is there any way to adjust glidetoss and DACUS lengths without affecting wavedashes or modifying universal friction? I guess I don't care so much about DACUS but I would be sad to see glidetosses nerfed to hell. (Though I understand that it may be a necessary loss in the event that isolated modification is impossible.)

 

[Wind Owl]

DACUS is based off of dash attack velocity, and glidetoss is based off of roll velocity in addition to traction.

 

[Krautrock]

So there's no way to independently modify them without affecting other aspects of the character then. That's too bad.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

But the fact that the person that is using a low tier usually has to be a "master" to beat a higher tier is indeed the root problem; at least that's what I gather Shadic's logic is. I don't really agree with it however.

I think he's trying to say that no character should have to be played with a lot more skill just to beat any higher tier. I don't really think that ever happens. It's not like it takes no skill to play melee fox or falco. Any character requires lots of skill to play masterfully and perfectly (even with vBrawl Metaknight, there is a difference between noobs and true masters.)

low tier master is just a term for them, there are "high tier masters" as well (jman, m2k, etc.)
axe beat jman twice, does this mean axe is far superior to jman?
of course not, jman is one of the best players in the country(this sin't taking anything from Axe)
the low tiers have the tools and they have to play to their strengths to win and it's been shown time and again that this is possible and that the "underdog" so to speak can do it.

now if everyone is just as good as each other that will take the fun away from overcoming weaknesses and prevailing through tough match ups. I'm not saying make people suck intentionally, but huge changes don't need to be made, a la the ideas for bowser, in order for characters to succeed. Simple buffs are key here to making the game feel the same.

EDIT: unrelated but there are glide tosses in melee if you wish to see what would happen with melee traction

 

[GP&B]

That's why I thought my idea of balance would be pretty good. It makes everyone viable but they all also have to deal with their handful of unfavorable match-ups. All characters should have a good amount of match-ups distributed within the 35:65 to 65:35 ranges or something like that.

 

[Gindler]

Yes, yes.

"Hey let's make Mewtwo use confusion!"
"Yeah, that's an awesome idea!"
"Oh look, the characters can hit mewtwo with a back aerial after confusion :/"
"That doesn't matter! People will find funny mewtwo spinning people around with no reason"
"Oh yeah!"

Things like that

If only confusion at least forced tech chase...

Also pulled people through stages....I'm sure that was intended.

And a worthless "reflector"

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

That's why I thought my idea of balance would be pretty good. It makes everyone viable but they all also have to deal with their handful of unfavorable match-ups. All characters should have a good amount of match-ups distributed within the 35:65 to 65:35 ranges or something like that.

nerfing sheiks d-throw already makes low tiers a lot better
everyone can be viable in the right hands
also this is a great thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279010
let me find a post by Axe it sums up playing low tiers well
edit: this one's by Taj

"My Post-Apex reflections.

I'm not sure if this will turn into a rant or a QQ post, but I've been thinking about my performance at Apex, I've been lurking the boards, watching some vids, and it is a lot to take in right now.

I went to Apex with a few goals in mind. My first goal was to go all Mewtwo. A very easy goal, and with the exception of a requested Marth ditto with IB in Round 1 pools, I completed that goal.

My next goal was just to make it out of pools. I was a little worried, because I had a few good players in round 1 pools and I was worried about my seeding, but I surprised myself and I beat Aniolas, IB, and Vudujin to secure my #1 seed into second round pools.

Second round pools were a little scarier. I had Lucky, Th0rn, Sneak, Animal and Nakamaru to beat. At first glance, you would breathe a sigh of relief because I had only heard of Lucky and at worst, I would get second seed. I was worried because I saw that they were all decent players, Lucky had beaten me before, I saw Animal do very well against Axe in a friendly, Nakamaru is a Falcon and I've been obliterated by Falcon mains since 09, and I heard from Darc that Th0rn took games off of Jman before and Lucky told me he lost to Thorn in a money match earlier.

I ended up beating Sneak, a surprisingly technical Falco, pretty easily. Nakamaru took a game off me with his Rainbow Cruise counter-pick, but I was unphased and clenched my two neutral wins against him.

Animal came into the match with a smart strategy of laser camping and playing the top platforms on DL64, but I was able to pin him and gain stock advantage, and he seemed to fall from nervousness and pressure and never recovered against me.

Then I had to play Lucky... I was very worried since I've felt like I've been in a slump ever since OC3 and even worse in the Mango Juice tournament in 09. I was completely ready to accept him 2-0ing me, but I wanted to do my best. The first match was pretty close on Battlefield, we were practically trading stocks and I was at about 70ish% which is pretty much KO percentage on Battlefield, and he was at low %. He tried to bait my ledge confusion as I was stalling, but he wasn't used to the timing, speed, and range that I could throw it out and react, and I gimped his last stock.

I was feeling very good about at least winning the first game, and I figured that another opportunity like that would be hard. He picks Stadium against me, and I feel slightly relieved, because he didn't try to cheese me out on a more favorable counter-pick and I'm really comfortable on that stage against spacies.

Right off the bat, I brought it to him. I came at him with all of my trick plays, all of my reads that I've been saving and I got some nasty zero to death combos on him. It almost felt like he was sand-bagging because of the huge momentum I gained on him towards the end. I clenched my 2-0 on Lucky and I was incredibly happy. (People in the venue saw me jump up from my seat yelling, "YES!") I secured my spot in bracket, made my goal, I overcame my fears, and the match-up.

I had Th0rn to beat though, and my new goal became to secure a #1 seed against NJ's campiest Falco. He was easily the most hardcore laser camping Falco I've ever played against. Fortunately, I've had a lot of experience cracking those Falco turtle shells and I was able to secure a solid 2-0 on him. I was feeling great about myself, I accomplished all of my goals, and I felt like I proved a lot to myself.

Being called washed-up, a has-been, people talking **** behind my back, the fickle nature of the audience between my character choices, I had a lot of confidence problems the last couple of years. This tournament, I went all Mewtwo, lost to Kage and Dr. Peepee, and tied with Kage for 17th place with the third worst character in the game. A character that people believed was on the same level as Kirby, Yoshi, Ness, Bowser, Zelda and Pichu. I know Lucky could've tried to camp the **** out of me, and maybe he could've won, but he didn't. He opted to go toe-to-toe against me and my character and I came out on top. I have nothing but respect for people that play that way, and I could still accept him if he chose to laser camp on DL64. Nevertheless, I outplayed him in the pocket and I came out on top, and I'd love to see any other Mewtwo player beat him under the same circumstances and tell me he just sucks against M2.

I felt great after the tournament, I felt great that my good friends Wobbles and Axe both got 5th place and really made a name for themselves. I would say Wobbles is officially the best ICs in the world as Chu Dat himself gave him the crown after this tournament. Axe is the best low-tier main in the country, and he's on his way to becoming a top 5 international contender. I'm glad I could be right there with them, watching and helping them achieve their great goals.

I want to QQ , but I've realized that I just have more to prove. I've gotten over my some of my confidence issues, and I'm ready for my next step as a player. I've got to complete myself, and that means I need to cover all of my weaknesses. I'm going to retrain myself with Marth, probably from the ground up. Perfect my edgeguarding, and go M2/Marth pretty evenly. Most likely, leading with M2 and changing my focus from just winning to analyzing my opponents more, and closing with Marth.

I wanted to flirt with the idea of actually running out the clock against people as M2, but I can't bring myself to do it. I want to actually out play everyone, win on stage, and overcome an opponent's strategy with my natural playstyle. Ultimately, I think running is the strongest direction to take Mewtwo, but I want to change that and possibly explore more aggressive options before I make that my verdict. I probably could've won against Kage on DL if I decided to camp him out, I could've beaten Armada in those friendlies if I just waited more, and I would've done better against PP if I didn't let myself get distracted from the match.

I've been lurking the boards, and many people are unconsciously downplaying Axe's and my achievements by essentially blaming the player. There are players that sync well with their characters, and there are great players that sync well with their characters. The difference between a character's potential and reality is right there. People called what Axe did surprising and an upset. I saw it coming from a mile away. You can say that players didn't know the match-up, and you know what, it sounds like a personal problem. It doesn't mean that you can just counter-gimmick an win, which is why I spent so much time posting about the player first.

No disrespect to Plank at all, but I'll use some of his quotes to aid my point.

"I don't understand your character." A reasonable problem for someone to have, and our first match was pretty close, we were both trying to figure each other out. The second match, "I think I understand your character better now." I won even more convincingly. Making a statement declaring the understanding of my character should result in a more convincing victory, yet it didn't happen. Why do I still win a reasonable amount of games against AZ despite all of them having plenty of experience against my "gimmick?" Now is when people will say that I'm just better than them, or I'm just good, and Mewtwo is still a bad character.

People really need to reevaluate what a character's weaknesses really mean. Axe said it really well when he said every character has weaknesses. Obviously Fox's advantages outshine (pun intended) many of his weaknesses, and when we have evidence of this happening with a low tier, we dismiss it as a gimmick or cling to the notion that they're still extremely limited.

I'm not trying to say Pikachu and Mewtwo for top/high tier, but there is a reasonable amount of evidence at this point, without player johns, to say that Pikachu should be placed higher, (Right above Luigi, imo) and Mewtwo > Zelda, possibly even above Roy on the tier list. Now the main issue I have with making statements like this, is addressing a character like Zelda. When you beat someone that supposedly plays the match-up correctly vs. someone that plays the match-up incorrectly, I'm not sure how to argue against it. In my opinion, Zelda doesn't have what it takes to close out on camping like many other characters above her, and she suffers for it. She benefits a lot from players being reckless though. I played against Epsilon and The Lake with both mentalities in mind and found that I still won regardless of what style I chose to use. I could play reckless and barely win, or I could completely pick them apart and **** them with Mewtwo.

Sorry about this being so long-winded. I even have more I want to say, but if there is anything I've learned, it's that I want to make this game more spectator friendly, and hardcore camping doesn't appeal to the majority. Hbox's set against Armada wasn't as exciting as Mango's set, and there's nothing wrong with that from a competitive stance, but as long as we have exciting matches from the majority of top players, I think we'll be alright."

 

[Wind Owl]

So there's no way to independently modify them without affecting other aspects of the character then. That's too bad.

No, that isn't true. There are sneaky ways of governing that independently if we so desire.

 

[Krautrock]

EDIT: unrelated but there are glide tosses in melee if you wish to see what would happen with melee traction

Yeah I know - I was just hoping there was a way to let them retain their Brawl usefulness.

EDIT: Oh, nevermind. Good ****. If you guys decide to do it, that is.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

No, that isn't true. There are sneaky ways of governing that independently if we so desire.

wait can you keep regular glide tosses or is that impossible

 

[Wind Owl]

Did you mean with the same distance? Yes, we can.

 

[stingers]

they expressed interest to keep glide tossing intact when we were talking about aerial glide tossing...so im sure it will be fine.

 

[GP&B]

Blaaaaaaargh, giant poast.

I completely forgot that the nerf to Sheik's D-Throw does significantly help lower tier characters.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

Did you mean with the same distance? Yes, we can.

while keeping everything else the same?
if so that>agt imo

 

[FireBall Stars]

I readed all the Taj's post

YEAH, I readed.

It's great, it just gave me more motivation to continue with my low tiers, specially M2. I recommend to every low tier player.

 

[Wind Owl]

while keeping everything else the same?
if so that>agt imo

While keeping everything else the same, yes.

I read all the Taj's post

YEAH, I read.

It's great, it just gave me more motivation to continue with my low tiers, specially M2. I recommend to every low tier player.

Link?

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

lololol wind owl your link is to scroll up
i posted it on this page
if you can keep glide tossing in tack then why is agt even a possibility

 

[FireBall Stars]

It's on ichigo's giant post upper in the page

it's a pasted Taj's post

 

[SymphonicSage12]

now that I think about about it, AGT just sounds weird...not very melee like IMO. Although definitely keep glide tossing (with good distance, not melee GT) if you can.