Project M Social Thread

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

^^^this at stingers
gamedominator are you part of the team or just the #1 fanboy(maybe #2 behind spam-arrows)

 

[JCaesar]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jcaesar-brawl

*ahem*

We are trying out some experimental stuff here. So if you're going to freak out over every little thing you see, save your blood pressure and don't bother watching.

And stingers if you come in and be a douche in the chat I will ban you.

 

[stingers]

Right...you allow the metagame to mature...then say "ok guys time to relearn everything we changed lawl". There's no sense in that.

and jcaeser not even I am going to freak out over experimental stuff when it's clearly labeled as such lol

edit: **** now you're being a **** too? alright then...I had no intentions of even joining the stream but I guess everyone needs a straw man.

 

[GP&B]

I pay attention. A lot.

I hardly see the issue besides answering to people who may have missed details.

It would allow the metagame to mature and make more intelligent decisions about improving characters while leaving the threshold for their play style in tact.

Well, I thought the intent was only to make a compiled balance change throughout the cast after at least more than half a year if seen necessary. It's a top priority that the metagame develop heavily on the finalized characters so that minor things can be fixed.

Learn to read.

10reads

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Honestly, I agree with Stingers that you shouldn't be doing balance patches after 6 months. I'd much prefer doing a rather well played closed beta testing for balance.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

yo gamedominator we know you like this project but yo get off the teams **** and let them answer questions cause you're not them-edit: just saw you get shot down by a team member haha
also people hating on stingers and I realize that we want the project to succeed, we just convey are thoughts in a way that makes all of the extremely loyal followers a little upset lol

 

[kaizo13]

ninja'd by 10 ppl

Ichigo quit telling people to get off ppl's ***** when your on one

 

[GP&B]

I've been mostly restating what I have read over the thread since day one. I clearly remember that part well about balance patches. I'm curious what they're planning to do then about balance.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

I've been mostly restating what I have read over the thread since day one. I clearly remember that part well about balance patches. I'm curious what they're planning to do then about balance.

but just let them answer ok?
cause they are, like doing all the work

 

[stingers]

you keep talking about how people will treat the beta as a final product yet your way of thinking on updates puts you right with them (according to ur last post)

indeed...I am right with the community in that I will treat the beta like a final product and learn my character because that's just what people do. and you will do it too and so will everyone else. and then if they release balance patches everyone will be mad and etc etc. shanus said that he intends not repeating the brawl+ mistakes so as long as he follows through with that and knows any "updates" should be for like...MAJOR glitches. then i'm totally supporting him

 

[OverLade]

You're overestimating how much the game will actually change... Nobody is going to be changing combos etc because the game will be way beyond that stage.

If we're lucky, when the game is released there wont be any reason to balance anything. even. I'm in the back room to make sure MK isn't overpowered and a lot of other players are joining for similar reasons.

The idea is when the public beta is released the game is 85% done...

 

[GP&B]

I will agree that I could afford to answer less. At the very least, I shouldn't be answering things about development process or anything that isn't finalized.

But is it possible to retain the manner of posting you two had when we were talking about ZSS earlier? That was actually lacking in malicious content and worth reading. There are ways to express your opinion that doesn't intentionally piss off a lot of people.

EDIT: What I was talking about balance patches is exactly what RedHalberd just said.

 

[genkaku]

Can you not read?
"The purpose of the open beta is really to make the product available to the masses in a state that we are proud of and think of as 'near-complete.' Think of it as a less ****ty version of starcraft 2 beta: designed to annihilate any last minute bugs as well as fix any last minute gamebreaking bugs. We will not be making frequent balance changes."
This does not mean "you allow the metagame to mature...then say 'ok guys time to relearn everything we changed lawl'"

I.E.
Open beta is a product that is as finished as it can be without going public. After it is opened the public will inevitably discover some issues, whether they be balance or bugs or whatever that need patching. There's no way around that. The existence of an open beta is the admission that the devs aren't perfect and are open to the *possibility* that they may have made a few minor mistakes or overlooked an error. (You should be happy about that at least.)

Forgive my frankness, but pay attention. It's free.

 

[stingers]

if I'm pissing anyone off right now...ya'll have some problems lol. js

redhal, like I said...if you guys aren't changing gameplay when you release new versions, then it doesnt really matter...

 

[GP&B]

No, no, no, that isn't the problem right now.

Err, it's with ICHIGO and not you. Swear to god you're both the same user. Except ICHIGO likes to mention ****-riding way too much.

 

[Wind Owl]

It would be shortsighted and absurd to simply release the game and ignore it for fear of... GASP! forcing people to adapt when the alternative is a progressively more balanced fighting game. Look at Guilty Gear or BlazBlue. Regardless of your opinion on those games, the fanbase is in general quite positive about the idea of a rebalanced version of their favorite fighting game. With each iteration, the tiers tend to get closer together.

I don't know if you're speaking for yourself, stingers, but you seem overly concerned about people having to learn and adapt when that's what fighting games are about.

Brawl+ did it wrong in that the iterations were mere days or weeks apart. If you allow the metagame to solidify, you can observe it and make intelligent corrections based on what is necessary for balance.

 

[OverLade]

The "gameplay" won't change, but if character X randomly has an unintended infinte on character Y then that's a problem.

We're not going to change Snakes tech chasing because player X is extremely **** with it, or change The knockback of MKs nair because it's too strong. Those kind of things will definitely be addressed before the game comes out, which is why it takes so long. A lot of values haven't even been ported from melee yet so there's a lot to be done.

Exposing the public to little things is important, like thoughts on super armor frames etc. Those king of things will be thoroughly tested before the game is release and the idea is to please people who like melee and people who want to jump into a new game. A lot of melee players want expansion as well as consistency with what they're used to. Making old characters viable without making them repeats of existing characters etc...

 

[stingers]

a new version of blazblue or guilty gear is hardly the same thing as a balance patch, come on now. new versions of games also have new story modes, new characters, new art/graphics, music, etc. and you also have to pay for it. they are essentially playing a different game at that point. its not the same thing as a balance patch

i do have a problem with people having to forget things they've already learned in order to re-learn something else, yes...

 

[XkaruX]

on topic of beta....will it be fully Wi-fi capable on release?


EDIT:

XkaruX it's called RAR and i've already questioned it plenty of times on this thread but devs. think it's a good mechanic and i agree it opens up many options (but i still don't think it belongs in this project....i mean u can give everybody 10 jumps and ofcourse it will give them better/more options...but do you really want that in Melee?)

*drastic example but you get the core of my point

Oh.. ok.
Well, I guess it's not that bad. But I still wish they get rid of it someday, heheh..

 

[Wind Owl]

a new version of blazblue or guilty gear is hardly the same thing as a balance patch, come on now. new versions of games also have new story modes, new characters, new art/graphics, music, etc. and you also have to pay for it. they are essentially playing a different game at that point. its not the same thing as a balance patch

i do have a problem with people having to forget things they've already learned in order to re-learn something else, yes...

Then I don't know why you play fighting games.

Spoiler

Maybe just to push buttons...?

Anyway, one of the main advantages of playing PM over Melee is that it will be more balanced. I don't see why we should release one iteration and be like "ok there good enough" when balance can be achieved.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Submit bugs = A-OK, but that can be done in private. You guys should try to find as many bugs as you can while it's private, and then release when it's finished. Any bugs found after that should just be left in unless they're like...obviously not right and completely ruin gameplay. Then you release v. 1.01 or whatever. It shouldn't start with 0.5...

Playtesting = Why would you even consider this? Private playtesting is fine, but giving it to the masses to "playtest"? When you publicly release something, people are going to treat it like a finished product, and having to deal with any changes are going to put people off. This isn't a PC gaming community, patches for balance in competitive fighters are really off-putting.

This.




If you guys have to patch it more than 3 times after its public release, I call it a failure.

But that's just me.


EDIT: And can this PLEASE be wiimote-nunchuck friendly <_<

 

[stingers]

lol well as an ex brawl+ developer i can see why you would say that wind owl

that push buttons line was clever though

 

[Wind Owl]

I "developed" Brawl+ for about a month, probably less, and in the very beginning (when it was barely even named Brawl+), but nice try.

You still didn't address my point.

 

[stingers]

LOL my line about brawl+ was all that I had to say about your point dude. there is no such thing as perfect balance. there is not even such a thing as balance at all. there will always be bad matchups and characters that are better than others and there's nothing you guys can do about that.

constantly changing things in the name of balance will just confuse and annoy your userbase...you know the people that will actually be playing the game.

 

[o-Serin-o]

You guys Stingers posts a ****load in here o_o

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

from a devs standpoint why should i play this over melee?

 

[stingers]

You guys Stingers posts a ****load in here o_o

because I have hope for this project

 

[SymphonicSage12]

that is if rest still does 15 damage like in brawl

Um, rest has been meleefied since early Brawl+ days

 

[Shadic]

New characters, new stages, balance.

If you hate change, go back to Melee.

 

[Wind Owl]

LOL my line about brawl+ was all that I had to say about your point dude.

No, dude. Your line about Brawl+ was a failed attempt to stereotype my way of thinking into that of a group of people who have a very poor reputation. Please address points on their own merit.

there is no such thing as perfect balance. there is not even such a thing as balance at all. there will always be bad matchups and characters that are better than others and there's nothing you guys can do about that.

Obviously. But are you saying no game is more balanced than another?

constantly changing things in the name of balance will just confuse and annoy your userbase...you know the people that will actually be playing the game.

Did I say anything about constantly? No.

I said after letting the metagame solidify, and I should have said, with careful scrutiny of highly skilled players. Think of it as the MBR's tier list in frequency and care, except balance changes instead of mere balance assessments.

from a devs standpoint why should i play this over melee?

More characters, more stages (read: more stages overall AND a vastly higher percentage of said stages being tournament legal), a few new mechanics, and better balance (Melee's balance was downright laughable).

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

New characters, new stages, balance.

If you hate change, go back to Melee.

do you think this will be better than melee
aslso guy above me, melee had bad balance sure but brawl is just as bad
what's the level of balance you're hoping to achive because low tiers are an entertaining part of every game

 

[Shadic]

I already enjoy it more, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Wind Owl]

Yes, eventually.

 

[GP&B]

I thought the idea was that PM and Melee could both be played in harmony? You should be able to transition perfectly into PM and back and both would co-exist with Melee as a mainstay for the tournament event and PM for the side event/side tournament. That's just wishful thinking and my imagination of how both would work, but it sounded like a good idea to me.

But yeah, nothing is holding this back from becoming far superior to Melee.

 

[Wind Owl]

No. The "Eggm Test" will likely never happen, and they are different games. Project M is a sequel to Melee, and there will always be people that prefer one over the other.

Limiting P:M to a side event is not the intention of any developer, and what will happen regarding that is up to the future.

 

[stingers]

wind owl you can release balance patches as much as you guys want. it's not my business to tell you guys what to do, you are the chosen developers so feel free to simply ignore me and just not even bother responding to whatever I say from now on.

and better balance (Melee's balance was downright laughable).

melee was better balanced among the viable characters, so I don't actually agree...but whatever.

 

[GP&B]

No. The "Eggm Test" will likely never happen, and they are different games. Project M is a sequel to Melee, and there will always be people that prefer one over the other.

Limiting P:M to a side event is not the intention of any developer, and what will happen regarding that is up to the future.

I see. Then I hope for the best when this project gets to that point.

 

[Glöwworm]

melee 1.1

melee 2.0

 

[Wind Owl]

wind owl you can release balance patches as much as you guys want. it's not my business to tell you guys what to do, you are the chosen developers so feel free to simply ignore me and just not even bother responding to whatever I say from now on.

We're "chosen," not in the sense that you seem to imply, but in the sense that we put time, effort, and skills into the project that no one else is willing to. Anyone else could do the same, and we've posted the link to the application forum several times.

Spoiler

Too bad your application is intentionally a joke...

melee was better balanced among the viable characters, so I don't actually agree...but whatever.

"Better?" Than what? "Viable?" If you have to divide the character roster into "viable" and "not viable" in the first place, how can you claim balance? That statement says nothing at all.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I know I'm just a regular Joe here, but I just have to say this: remember to argue for the sake of the point you are making and to further your insights and goals, rather than demeaning and belittling people just to make you look better and them look worse. Several posts in here are slights and insults disguised as wall-o'-texts and quote-unquote "constructive criticism".