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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Burnsy
Smash Lord
DMG, I find it very telling when you say that Squirtle's best move by far is usmash.
How much better could they make his bair without it being completely ******** in design? It's already Jigglypuff bair but it lasts long like a sex kick :/.
Dmash, dtilt, and ftilt are very much of note for their disjoints, and if you are so predictable with your side-b that it is getting CC'd then I feel you are using the move wrong.
Also, on any stage with walls his infinite wall climb is pretty useful.
Anyways, I'm not trying to argue that Squirtle is great, good, or even #viable. I just think he's much better than people like you make him out to be, DMG. When I read your posts about Squirtle you make him sound like he is Melee F tier along with Yoshi and GnW and I can't agree with that.
How much better could they make his bair without it being completely ******** in design? It's already Jigglypuff bair but it lasts long like a sex kick :/.
Dmash, dtilt, and ftilt are very much of note for their disjoints, and if you are so predictable with your side-b that it is getting CC'd then I feel you are using the move wrong.
Um, what? Side-b is a great horizontal recovery if you cancel it immediately over and over again...
Also, on any stage with walls his infinite wall climb is pretty useful.
On most of those I'll have to disagree except for kill power. Stringing together combos might not be as easy as with some other characters you might use, but getting a 5-6 hit combo is quite possible with Squirtle and it happens fairly often for me. Don't tell me to get used to not landing long combos with him just because you are incapable.
Anyways, I'm not trying to argue that Squirtle is great, good, or even #viable. I just think he's much better than people like you make him out to be, DMG. When I read your posts about Squirtle you make him sound like he is Melee F tier along with Yoshi and GnW and I can't agree with that.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Bair does not have remotely the strength of Jigglypuff's nor does Squirtle have near the air dominance of Jigglypuff.
It has an intangible tail to give it "longer" range, I'll grant you.
It has an intangible tail to give it "longer" range, I'll grant you.
Oracle
Smash Master
I'm not the one comparing Squirtle's Bair to Jiggs. Jiggs gets the option between strong poke vs Sex kick. If she needs range without being committed to the move, she can do Bair. If she needs sex kick, she has Nair for that. Squirtle gets a poke, and then holds out his tail for the opponent. Then, he's also given a crappy auto cancel window for it. Good luck trying to FF or delay throwing it out without getting landing lag. Seriously, go into training mode and fool around with how high you can be to Bair and then land with no lag. It's very late into the move, you sit there lingering for a good time but don't have a solid window until the move is damn near over anyways, which is not what Squirtle needs. It's like saying G^W Fair is great for lingering onstage. Maybe in Squirtle's case it's decent because he doesn't have a real solid sex kick to begin with, so you might as well cram that property into another move to make up for it. His Bair looks amazing when it makes his own Fair and Nair obsolete lol.
CC is good vs Squirtle and does hamper the character. You gotta play around it and it forces you to use options you may not want to rely on as much, like trying to grab or trying to Aerial BB. I mean if you want to sit here and say Squirtle will not get CC'd because you will be unpredictable enough to toss a move out AND hit with it AND not get it CC'd AND they won't DI well AND they will be an appropriate weight/%/size for the perfect combo, then yeah everything looks ****in ROSEY for Squirtle. Every character is gonna feel great if the scenario is just gonna play out for them. I dunno what you do with Squirtle or how people react to him, but I personally have very little faith in his ability to reliably get in, because doing so relies on tricking the opponent, which is not as solid of a gameplan compared to big swords, massive speed, overwhelming offensive pressure, good poking, and xyz tangible factors that don't rely on "tricks" to necessarily work or be strong.
Squirtle is not blessed with hard tangible assets to work with, and his movement options are borderline gimmick. If you have the skill to make it work then props to you, but it honestly is a waste and you would be better off spending that time and applying that kind of skill to a character that is actually good. If you can trick people and get inside with Squirtle, why the hell are you not playing a Spacie or Sheik or Marth? Hell, sell your soul to the devil and play Sonic at that point. Squirtle isn't even comparable at that point.
CC is good vs Squirtle and does hamper the character. You gotta play around it and it forces you to use options you may not want to rely on as much, like trying to grab or trying to Aerial BB. I mean if you want to sit here and say Squirtle will not get CC'd because you will be unpredictable enough to toss a move out AND hit with it AND not get it CC'd AND they won't DI well AND they will be an appropriate weight/%/size for the perfect combo, then yeah everything looks ****in ROSEY for Squirtle. Every character is gonna feel great if the scenario is just gonna play out for them. I dunno what you do with Squirtle or how people react to him, but I personally have very little faith in his ability to reliably get in, because doing so relies on tricking the opponent, which is not as solid of a gameplan compared to big swords, massive speed, overwhelming offensive pressure, good poking, and xyz tangible factors that don't rely on "tricks" to necessarily work or be strong.
Squirtle is not blessed with hard tangible assets to work with, and his movement options are borderline gimmick. If you have the skill to make it work then props to you, but it honestly is a waste and you would be better off spending that time and applying that kind of skill to a character that is actually good. If you can trick people and get inside with Squirtle, why the hell are you not playing a Spacie or Sheik or Marth? Hell, sell your soul to the devil and play Sonic at that point. Squirtle isn't even comparable at that point.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Alternatively, watch this short animu thing.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Squirtle bair sweetspot (lasts 4 frames, then replaced by sourspot doing 8 damage):
Offensive Collision Id= 0, Bone=0, Damage=12, SheildDamage=0, Direction=361, BaseKnockback=0, WeightKnockback=0, KockbackGrowth=100
Offensive Collision Id= 2, Bone=44, Damage=12, SheildDamage=0, Direction=361, BaseKnockback=0, WeightKnockback=0, KockbackGrowth=100
Jigglypuff bair (lasts 4 frames, then replaced by nothing.)
Offensive Collision Id= 0, Bone=60, Damage=12, SheildDamage=0, Direction=361, BaseKnockback=0, WeightKnockback=0, KockbackGrowth=100
Offensive Collision Id= 1, Bone=60, Damage=12, SheildDamage=0, Direction=361, BaseKnockback=0, WeightKnockback=0, KockbackGrowth=100
Offensive Collision Id= 2, Bone=60, Damage=12, SheildDamage=0, Direction=361, BaseKnockback=0, WeightKnockback=0, KockbackGrowth=100
Their range is also quite similar. Perhaps a PMBR member can enlighten us on the differences in their l-cancelled landing lag (if any). The autocancel window is quite smaller, as you say.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I'm just sticking to the facts. Lots of people believe statements like Kinks about Squirt's bair not having "remotely the strength" of Jigg's and it's based on absolutely nothing, just like plenty of other claims about this relatively unexplored character. I find it frustrating to hear a person on one hand praise Jiggs bair as a great move and on the other hand say Squirtles bair is awful just like him.
Bair gets the job done sometimes... it would be so much better if it didn't linger. If you want to Bair around, you *should* play Jiggs lol. He doesn't pull off the strat as well because it lingers (which gets him punished more than Jiggs), and because his auto cancel window is really crappy which limits when you can reasonably toss it out sometimes if you don't want to deal with landing lag. Make it more like Jiggs where you toss and go, and then you'd start to have an obnoxious character. You can't "toss" out Usmash so in that regard yea Bair wins hard. But that move has the potential to be ridiculous with that kind of hitbox and killing. You put forth all of your might and create twin glory.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
They could be identical hitboxes or properties as well, and Squirtle's bair STILL wouldn't be as good because of how it works into his character. Jiggs is hardly comboable, has the aerial mobility/weave of the gods, and has several jumps + infinite recovery.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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- 26,560
Jeez DMG the way you describe Squirtle makes him sound like he's your crippled son.
If I had a crippled son, I would have the dignity to not name him ****ing Squirtle.
I like Squirtle. I do. I like the Pokemon in general and I like him in P:M. I do not have delusions of grandeur though and see Squirtle as that awesome. I bring him up a lot because people go Waaaaa whenever good characters get touched or changed, and I don't think they comprehend the struggles OF playing a character like Squirtle. I don't have the manhood to do it, most people don't. Congrats if you do, just don't say he's good. Doing something like that, might stave off some well deserved buffs and leave him underleveled for quite awhile.
I like Squirtle. I do. I like the Pokemon in general and I like him in P:M. I do not have delusions of grandeur though and see Squirtle as that awesome. I bring him up a lot because people go Waaaaa whenever good characters get touched or changed, and I don't think they comprehend the struggles OF playing a character like Squirtle. I don't have the manhood to do it, most people don't. Congrats if you do, just don't say he's good. Doing something like that, might stave off some well deserved buffs and leave him underleveled for quite awhile.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I fail to see why having his disjointed hitbox disappear on him would make it easier to not get punished. It would only make punishing him easier because you don't have a clankable hitbox getting in your way. Your point about the autocancel making it less good is valid, but you seem to be assuming that by comparing it's properties to those of Jigg's bair I am saying it should be spammed in the same sort of way. I'm not. 3-4 extra frames from an L cancel does not take the move from being good like Jiggs bair to being crappy.
If it is a requirement for a move to be obnoxious and spammable in order for it to be successful in this game, its going to be a really bad game.
If it disappeared, that would also hopefully imply that he can toss it out again and won't be a lagging piece of ****. I'm not just suggesting to bring his tail back and STILL be lagging and have a bad auto cancel window lol. Stick it out, retreat it quick, get 2 bairs in the same SH like Jiggs. That sound much better than getting one and having a coinflip shot at lagging when you touch the ground. It opens up the door to not be committed and to punish/correct yourself if the Bair doesn't land on them/shield.
Jiggs gets to Spam Bair because in the end, even if she misses it's usually not a big deal. Squirtle's only advantage is if the linger runs into a non shield. Otherwise, it's a bit of a liability and coupled with the bad AC window it just makes it not as comparable. Range and power wise yes, Kink's wrong in that area, but what the move can do for Squirtle and how safe he truly is while doing it, looks easily worse than Jiggs *who is lame*. Because Jiggs doesn't linger, she gets to carry people offstage with it (even taking away the multiple jumps aspect, she can combo the move into itself due to that property. Squirtle can't nearly as well)
If you want Squirtle to be decent, in a game that DOES have spammable and obnoxious moves, you can't pretend those moves don't exist and give him worse moves than what people get. Falco Laser, Jiggs Bair, SHINE OMFG, Bowser Upb, Snake Upb, every move Sheik has ever, etc. The game is "ok" with those already in, making Squirtle's Bair comparable isn't going to damper the game.
Jiggs gets to Spam Bair because in the end, even if she misses it's usually not a big deal. Squirtle's only advantage is if the linger runs into a non shield. Otherwise, it's a bit of a liability and coupled with the bad AC window it just makes it not as comparable. Range and power wise yes, Kink's wrong in that area, but what the move can do for Squirtle and how safe he truly is while doing it, looks easily worse than Jiggs *who is lame*. Because Jiggs doesn't linger, she gets to carry people offstage with it (even taking away the multiple jumps aspect, she can combo the move into itself due to that property. Squirtle can't nearly as well)
If you want Squirtle to be decent, in a game that DOES have spammable and obnoxious moves, you can't pretend those moves don't exist and give him worse moves than what people get. Falco Laser, Jiggs Bair, SHINE OMFG, Bowser Upb, Snake Upb, every move Sheik has ever, etc. The game is "ok" with those already in, making Squirtle's Bair comparable isn't going to damper the game.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Anyways this argument is going nowhere, I'm getting words stuffed in my own mouth and theorycrafted to sleep. Good night DMG.
Squirtle should get more than baby buffs though. I don't see him as a solid character who's just a little behind: he honestly lacks fundamental "Melee" essence in his very being. Like seriously I can't get over the Uthrow one because it's in everyone's blood to try and CG/throw molest Spacies and his poor little shell gets in the way and he can't do it. He is frustrating to play as in the Melee environment imo because he's not a crazy Melee character. He's a decent man in an indecent world (Batman)
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Jigglypuff's bair is "obnoxious and spammable"? I would very much like to see someone playing Jigglypuff in a deliberately spammy way and do decently. You really mustn't be aware of the precision required to play the character.
Sonic's down B is obnoxious
Squirtle's side B is obnoxious
Lucario's 2.1 dash attack was obnoxious
Unless a move is all of fast, meaty, and safe on block, and opens up pressure/followups regardless of whether it hits or is blocked, it can not rightfully be dubbed spammable. Squirtle doesn't get to get away with having a damn obnoxious move just because he's otherwise bad, but at the least his loses to quite a good number of moves.
Sonic's down B is obnoxious
Squirtle's side B is obnoxious
Lucario's 2.1 dash attack was obnoxious
Unless a move is all of fast, meaty, and safe on block, and opens up pressure/followups regardless of whether it hits or is blocked, it can not rightfully be dubbed spammable. Squirtle doesn't get to get away with having a damn obnoxious move just because he's otherwise bad, but at the least his loses to quite a good number of moves.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
oracle that trailer was great. i really wish i could go 
Minor Pandemic
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
- Messages
- 142
Does anyone else here have a hard time sticking to their "main"?
My main is unquestionably Mario. His moves and his play just really click with me and he feels very, very natural. But for some reason, every so often, I find myself at character select and going, "Ugh, I don't wanna play Mario" and then playing my secondary (Diddy) or even just someone random like DDD for a bit, then being like, "Why the hell aren't I playing Mario?" and then really enjoying him for another while before suddenly feeling like not playing him, again.
Does anyone else get burnt out on their main and then quickly return to him as often as I do or am I just bad at this whole fighting game stuff?
My main is unquestionably Mario. His moves and his play just really click with me and he feels very, very natural. But for some reason, every so often, I find myself at character select and going, "Ugh, I don't wanna play Mario" and then playing my secondary (Diddy) or even just someone random like DDD for a bit, then being like, "Why the hell aren't I playing Mario?" and then really enjoying him for another while before suddenly feeling like not playing him, again.
Does anyone else get burnt out on their main and then quickly return to him as often as I do or am I just bad at this whole fighting game stuff?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
My main is my least used character when I play this game.
Airrider
Smash Apprentice
Yeah. It´s pretty hard because i want to experiment with all the awesome characters. Right now i´m trying out DDD.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Alternatively, you don't have a main.
no johns. come and take our money.oracle that trailer was great. i really wish i could go
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
nice trailer, orcale. mario party 2 event sounds hype
G
genkaku
Guest
lol pingu
thanks for the involved responses last page, I appreciate it.
thanks for the involved responses last page, I appreciate it.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
noot noot ************
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I wonder if Project M 3.0 is going to have its audio be DLC.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
Looks like something from the Mr. Bill show. No wait apparently not
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
hotdogturtle
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 3,503
This is (somewhat) me with Wario, but only because there are so many fun characters in Project M. I like him and I like his design, but I'd get bored if I solely used him, only because I'd be missing out on all the other characters that I like playing as well.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
One of the side effects of having viable characters
Kati
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2010
- Messages
- 1,471
Someone was asking why Olimar wasn't available yet. I explained that the melee environment requires that offensive play be ever so slightly favoured over defensive play. They brought up Ivysaur. I forgot how to project:M, so can someone provide the true reason? be it that vOlimar is "toxic" for gameplay even if he were balanced or w/e.
Olimar and MK would be hard to balance in Melee. Maybe they had trouble with Pikmin acting weird or not being able to give them good hitboxes or something. You wouldn't want to play an Olimar with crappy Pikmin AI or properties.
Minor Pandemic
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
- Messages
- 142
IIRC the remaining characters are all "problem" characters from the standpoint that Project M is a mod requiring its own code, eg there being AI issues with Nana.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
I only play ZSS and Fox.
#Tierwhore
#Tierwhore
Texas is the strongest PM region in the world? I beg to differ.
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