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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Definitely add the sunglasses
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
...
I'm not sure if this is insinuating that Squirtle currently is like Sheik or that he should be like sheik by its wording.
Translucent
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 20, 2012
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- 354
This gives me hope. I'm playing him like he is now, but I think he could have a lot more. Thanks Reflex!Don't worry--I want Squirtle to be fun and interesting, too. We're doing what we can.
You think this is a game?
cannedbread
Smash Lord
wait is squirtle the new underwhelming character? or is it still zero use samus? i haven't been keeping up sorry.
It's Squirtle by a long mile. ZSS is fine and has room to grow and for someone to truly refine how to play her. Squirtle is grasping for Air/Buffs.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
i just now saw this, im losing my ****G^W's Upb hitbox is pathetic, and Sonic can attack out of his +/ go for the airdodge. On top of an exemplary horizontal recovery, and stuff like Homing Attack being unbelieveably versatile as a recovering move if the situation is right... yeah go give G^W a measely airdodge out of Upb. It's the least we could do.
Alternatively, make Bacon in the air REALLY zoom G^W horizontally when used. Might open up his approach/zoning game, and could help his recovery. I will draw a picture of G^W in a NASCAR style vehicle, roaring way past 200 MPH and with a frying pan in his hand to further illustrate what I am talking about.
The only downside I can see, is giving G^W an option to cancel his upb on taller platforms with a waveland. That would be the only reason I would hesistate at all.
EDIT: Random 4 am fact of the day, I am the only person to like the first 100 posts of this thread.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
The Mountain Dew sponsorship is the only reason G&W isn't last on the tier list.
MaxThunder
PM Support
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
geno
Smash Apprentice
At 0:57 Pichu crouches and falls asleep. I had forgotten about this wonderful, beautifully adorable Pichu... I had never actually wanted Pichu to be brought back into P:M until that moment. I'm genuinely a little upset about the Pichu tease reveal in the turbo mode video now. THANKS A LOT CALVO!
G
genkaku
Guest
so I've been messing around with PM for a little bit and feel... conflicted on the whole.
It's very fun and while the engine differences from melee are noticeable they aren't breaking like they were way back with like, the first demo. I'm realllly eager to feel out future improvements.
The biggest thing that makes me pause is character design. There's just so... much of it. Many characters are a blast to play but many are totally polarizing in that they seem like they're designed with such an overwhelming acknowledgment of combos that the characters reward mastering relatively static combos/punishes more than positioning (some melee vets don't seem to fare as well specifically because of this). So pretty much everyone starts to play like melee donkey kong. In many many instances the intricacies of the neutral game can be ignored in favor of maximizing punishes.
If I treat PM like a totally new game then this is much easier to swallow, but as a "successor " to melee it does bother me.
I don't know if the metagame is just too young or if I'm not playing/watching the right players, but to me it looks like so many of the characters have so many fantastic punishes so soon that melee spacing/neutral fundamentals are comparatively under-stressed in a huge way.
I dunno if this has been brought up before, but I wanted to hear what active PM players and devs think in relation.
It's very fun and while the engine differences from melee are noticeable they aren't breaking like they were way back with like, the first demo. I'm realllly eager to feel out future improvements.
The biggest thing that makes me pause is character design. There's just so... much of it. Many characters are a blast to play but many are totally polarizing in that they seem like they're designed with such an overwhelming acknowledgment of combos that the characters reward mastering relatively static combos/punishes more than positioning (some melee vets don't seem to fare as well specifically because of this). So pretty much everyone starts to play like melee donkey kong. In many many instances the intricacies of the neutral game can be ignored in favor of maximizing punishes.
If I treat PM like a totally new game then this is much easier to swallow, but as a "successor " to melee it does bother me.
I don't know if the metagame is just too young or if I'm not playing/watching the right players, but to me it looks like so many of the characters have so many fantastic punishes so soon that melee spacing/neutral fundamentals are comparatively under-stressed in a huge way.
I dunno if this has been brought up before, but I wanted to hear what active PM players and devs think in relation.
MaxThunder
PM Support
does anyone know if you could edge-cancel dashing in melee?..
I think that Melee purists aren't used to seeing it because all the characters with relatively intuitive combos, however few they may have numbered in Melee, had other crippling issues that held them back. Mobility and number of relatively safe options were both barlines that were staggeringly high, and so the only characters that thrived were the ones that had those in spades.
Moving to PM, the game has been altered in ways that make those dominant factors merely important facets of the game rather than a "you must be this tall to compete" sort of dealie. Movement speed for many characters has been buffed, and more characters have options that won't leave you helplessly camped for days or punished for even thinking about moving toward the opponent (both of which were problems for the bad Melee characters). The result is that superior movement/option count is just a set of strengths that a viable character can have and use to win, rather than something they HAD to have in order to win.
Not every character can control the neutral position as well as Fox or Sheik, and not every character can gimp at 0% or juggle for 60% on a single grab. Unless characters are going to be homogenized to the point where everyone's strings and pressure works very similarly, the improvement of -some- already-existing characters is naturally going to go from "short DI-dependent strings" to "this is the optimal thing to do in an advantageous position, like a grab or a reset." Since some characters aren't as good at gaining control in neutral position, it's only natural that they're given relatively powerful tools to make the most of it whenever they earn their advantageous position.
It's also worth noting that since the game is rather young, the optimal stuff for simpler characters will tend to top out faster than the more intricate ones, so it's little wonder why relatively basic strategies are a powerful force in the metagame so far. People still have to learn, adapt, and figure out what else there is to do in this game. In the meantime, there are plenty of characters who are nowhere close to formulaic. That's part of why I enjoy Wario so much, for instance.
Neutral game feels wonky at times, because the bar has been hugely upped on mobility. Melee does not have moves comparable to Ike's Side B, Pit's Glide, Wario's Side B, Sonic spins, Squirtle Side B, etc. Recoveries are also amazing compared to general Melee, and this does put more pressure on 0-death or huge combos instead of edgeguarding scenarios. People are also still working out some of the shield issues and tech issues that definitely make a difference in the game. An example off the top of my head was from Zenith in teams: Hax kneed DoH at the edge of BF, and with his shield angled he didn't fall off and so DoH got a punish from it. In P:M, there's no ****in way DoH would have been able to stay on stage in shield even if he did angle his shield the same. He would have flown off.
Traditional Melee MU's really haven't changed a ton. Marth vs Jiggs is still boring. It's the newer characters who are changing how you must play the game vs them. In that regard, you are spot on because it's not the Melee characters who are really changing neutral/combo strings that much.
Edit: Reflex basically said it very well. Mobility is no longer a luxury for only the Sheiks of the game lol. Coupled with unique move properties and movement options that were added, and you basically do have a different game (not entirely bad, sometimes)
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I miss being able to up-B in the same direction twice
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I wish I could like this multiple times.
*rolls eyes*
Someone please make Spidermad his own version of 2.5 that adds back random input lag so he can be happy again.
This kind of talk makes me nervous. Squirtle already seams fun and interesting to me, just maybe slightly weak in terms of matchup spread. This sounds like you would be taking away the things that some say make him unique and others say make him "awkward", then replacing them with "sheik like" abilities they are more comfortable with.Don't worry--I want Squirtle to be fun and interesting, too. We're doing what we can.
It's an gross overgeneralization that could be said about his Brawl counterpart.
I would like him to be more viable in the competitive scene, though; I definitely think that's of dire importance.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
That's fine, I can accept the argument that he isn't as good as he could be, but I find descriptions of his badness from some people to be silly exaggerations, and I quite like his overall design as it is now.
I personally find him to be very unique and fun and I find that most people who call him ridiculously awful tier don't try change their playstyle to cater to his strengths. I think that may be why many people think playing as him is awkward, but to me that is more of a personal preference than anything that needs to be drastically changed. I think the current design makes sense and with slight tweaks could work in a competitive environment.
I personally find him to be very unique and fun and I find that most people who call him ridiculously awful tier don't try change their playstyle to cater to his strengths. I think that may be why many people think playing as him is awkward, but to me that is more of a personal preference than anything that needs to be drastically changed. I think the current design makes sense and with slight tweaks could work in a competitive environment.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I can think of a select few Sheik traits that would alright for Squirtle
F-throw chain grabbing but only horizontally to set up a potential edgeguard
and uh
uh
Yup.
Fair sweetspot being active for a more acceptable number of frames and/or not moving his entire body would be nice. It contributes a lot to his awkward feeling to have his actual character model juxtapose. Instead of just tossing out a kick where he is, he does that weird forward motion that just feels all kinds of weird.
And there's the side-B with transcendent priority thing I've mentioned to make it better at absorbing light attacks instead of clanking with them, plus it has the added benefit of changing what is one his most obnoxious moves into one that can be beat through by stronger attacks.
F-throw chain grabbing but only horizontally to set up a potential edgeguard
and uh
uh
Yup.
Fair sweetspot being active for a more acceptable number of frames and/or not moving his entire body would be nice. It contributes a lot to his awkward feeling to have his actual character model juxtapose. Instead of just tossing out a kick where he is, he does that weird forward motion that just feels all kinds of weird.
And there's the side-B with transcendent priority thing I've mentioned to make it better at absorbing light attacks instead of clanking with them, plus it has the added benefit of changing what is one his most obnoxious moves into one that can be beat through by stronger attacks.
Squirtle just lacks a lot of goodies other characters have. Why can't he easily Uthrow CG a Spacie? He can usually regrab once, but it ends if they DI behind Squirtle once he has to dash in a direction to regrab. Even Luigi has an easier time, and he has to wavedash well out of it sometimes lol. His Bair should probably auto cancel sooner in the animation so that he can space better with it and maybe be able to fast fall it or give greater leniancy on when he can throw it out.
He's frustrating because he was not given dominating options. His MOST ridiculous move honestly may be his Usmash. That's a sad thing to say but when you look at it it doesn't sound that crazy. He is super short range and that move can produce a massive hitbox, most reliable killer outside of Dthrow, he can do it OOS and while sliding/running/etc. Hits people on platforms above him, etc. Good luck getting a followup hit on it, **** ain't a Mario Usmash lol. You will sit there with lag afterwards.
Going in the air, he's likely to get outspaced and going on the ground you are relying on tricky movements instead of solid pokes or approaches. Early on, might as well not even use Side B if they sit there and CC it. Or hell, any aerial for that matter. His tilts... well they kind of flop. Even in the sense of doing cool WD/shell shift tricks, you can't pull off miracles with the character. Maybe if you get lucky, you get that Utilt string, into an Uair or two. That's your HUZZAH combo with Squirtle, get used to it lol. It sure isn't a cool Uthrow CG into awesome edge guard or an easy combo from a move you want to love like Fair, that does 40% and puts you in a good spot.
The only thing Squirtle does like a Melee character, is occasionally gimp very very hard. Bubblebeam in the air is real solid for that obviously. The rest of the character is non combo, non range, non speed dominant, non OP recovery related. Kind of hard to succeed when you literally pray for combos to fall into your lap. Tiny, light, stuffed with fluff characters better be able to combo or kill because chances are they won't have jack **** else going for them. You can't leave Squirtle as a 1-2 hit wonder, without any reasonable kill moves or a comparable recovery to someone decent, without more range etc, and tweak him to be competitive. That stuff doesn't fly in Melee: you have to be ridiculous or well equipped to tackle the challenges of the day and little "Super Soaker" over there isn't getting it done.
He's frustrating because he was not given dominating options. His MOST ridiculous move honestly may be his Usmash. That's a sad thing to say but when you look at it it doesn't sound that crazy. He is super short range and that move can produce a massive hitbox, most reliable killer outside of Dthrow, he can do it OOS and while sliding/running/etc. Hits people on platforms above him, etc. Good luck getting a followup hit on it, **** ain't a Mario Usmash lol. You will sit there with lag afterwards.
Going in the air, he's likely to get outspaced and going on the ground you are relying on tricky movements instead of solid pokes or approaches. Early on, might as well not even use Side B if they sit there and CC it. Or hell, any aerial for that matter. His tilts... well they kind of flop. Even in the sense of doing cool WD/shell shift tricks, you can't pull off miracles with the character. Maybe if you get lucky, you get that Utilt string, into an Uair or two. That's your HUZZAH combo with Squirtle, get used to it lol. It sure isn't a cool Uthrow CG into awesome edge guard or an easy combo from a move you want to love like Fair, that does 40% and puts you in a good spot.
The only thing Squirtle does like a Melee character, is occasionally gimp very very hard. Bubblebeam in the air is real solid for that obviously. The rest of the character is non combo, non range, non speed dominant, non OP recovery related. Kind of hard to succeed when you literally pray for combos to fall into your lap. Tiny, light, stuffed with fluff characters better be able to combo or kill because chances are they won't have jack **** else going for them. You can't leave Squirtle as a 1-2 hit wonder, without any reasonable kill moves or a comparable recovery to someone decent, without more range etc, and tweak him to be competitive. That stuff doesn't fly in Melee: you have to be ridiculous or well equipped to tackle the challenges of the day and little "Super Soaker" over there isn't getting it done.
JayMan-X
Smash Apprentice
Everytime I play Squirtle, I get that feeling he "could", and maybe even "should" be great, but something keeps him from being decent... idk what it is though. I'm def not the best player out there, but... I don't know, Squirtle's got great potential with all his movement options and quickness. But when it comes to certain things, he just seems to not get rewarded a whole lot for landing grabs, and his aerials down flow very well together.
I totally agree with you on the playstyle Squirtle has though, I love the way he plays, and I definitely don't want his feel to change much in 3.0, which i doubt will happen.
Squirtle cannot do Melee ****. He literally is not allowed to do Melee ****: I dare you to try and CG a Falco with DI. Literally impossible with how much lag he has at the end and with how much he slides when he needs to dash forward for the regrab. Changing even something as minor sounding as that, would open up his game and make him feel like you can actually accomplish a goal. Right now, if you grab someone with Squirtle, you better Dthrow or put down the controller because the rest isn't worth it. If they sit there and CC early on, and your best response is to land a grab, with your stubby little arms? Goooooood luckkkkkk. Gotta deal with everyone and their Grandma having more range? Feel like dying nearly as early as Jiggs or G^W? Want to recover like the lord and saviour Mario "Jesus" Christ?
The way I see him, he's a worse off Jigglypuff that has the benefit of trying to do tricky transitions from air to ground with Side B, but was not implemented in a way to offset just how much worse off he is. He literally feels and looks like a semi stripped down character, and you are asked to try and take advantage of his janky movement tricks and options to overcome his inherent flaws. Those movement tricks though are real crappy compared to what other people got: Ike and Sonic get to wavedash and do attacks out of their options, get to cover more ground quickly, etc. Wario gets a scary move that grows powerful and functions for recovery, don't you dare recover with Squirtle Side B unless you want to look like Yoshi 2.0 and fall and die.
SO, take a tiny light character devoid of much range and easy kill moves, who is pretty average or below average at recovering, who doesn't even get mobility options on par with what other cool kids got, and you have a sad little turtle. #FreeSquirtle
I want to like Squirtle, but man. There are some heavy questions that linger. WHY DO THE SUNGLASSES BREAK AFTER GETTING HIT OMG WHOEVER MADE THAT CALL SHOULD BE SHOT IN THE CHEST WITH A WATER BAZOOKA! If they can't even get THAT part right about Squirtle, pack your bags because it's already over son.
The way I see him, he's a worse off Jigglypuff that has the benefit of trying to do tricky transitions from air to ground with Side B, but was not implemented in a way to offset just how much worse off he is. He literally feels and looks like a semi stripped down character, and you are asked to try and take advantage of his janky movement tricks and options to overcome his inherent flaws. Those movement tricks though are real crappy compared to what other people got: Ike and Sonic get to wavedash and do attacks out of their options, get to cover more ground quickly, etc. Wario gets a scary move that grows powerful and functions for recovery, don't you dare recover with Squirtle Side B unless you want to look like Yoshi 2.0 and fall and die.
SO, take a tiny light character devoid of much range and easy kill moves, who is pretty average or below average at recovering, who doesn't even get mobility options on par with what other cool kids got, and you have a sad little turtle. #FreeSquirtle
I want to like Squirtle, but man. There are some heavy questions that linger. WHY DO THE SUNGLASSES BREAK AFTER GETTING HIT OMG WHOEVER MADE THAT CALL SHOULD BE SHOT IN THE CHEST WITH A WATER BAZOOKA! If they can't even get THAT part right about Squirtle, pack your bags because it's already over son.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
The logistic reason for why is because of the throw's super high release point. Squirtle puts them above his head, JUMPS, THEN they go upward while he goes throw the ending of the throw animation, back DOWN to the ground, meaning they are released far above his head with plenty of time to get out of hitstun. The design reason? Probably an oversight- a lot of this Squirtle's design seems to be a "public testbed."
The comboability of throws comes from 6 main aspects, and lacking just one can make a throw a lot worse at followups:
End lag of the throw
Release point of the throw
Angle of the throw
Knockback of the throw
Fallspeed of the Victim, which all of knockback, hitstun, and susceptibility to further attacks
Weight of the Victim (Affects speed of the throw can can thus have a negative impact on the end lag of it)
Most of these apply to other moves as well, but throws are a special case because they have a predetermined animation and thus will ALWAYS release at the same point. It isn't like ZSS's dair where landing it at the opponent's toes instead of their head causes different followups.
No one plays animal crossing, just go sell Red Snappers to Tom Nook. Meanwhile I'll be waiting patiently for Shin Megami Tensei 4 to be released.
I don't think it's that the opponent gets out of hitstun too quickly on their own. If the opponent does not DI, he has a legit CG on someone like Falco. For how long I don't know, but it works. The problem is that because he is stuck in the throw animation for so long, you get screwed trying to move back and regrab them if they use DI. They hit the floor and get away. The release point is fine sorta, but the end lag he has is atrocious. I mean, it's better than Sheik's Uthrow by a long mile lmfao, but it's still really frustrating. That's something that plenty of characters have on Spacies, to try and tip things in their favor, and Squirtle can't do it/well.
JayMan-X
Smash Apprentice
He does man... bubblebeam op vs recoveries
Oh yeah, to rub more salt in the wound, tripping someone with bubblebeam if they tech/away gets you not a DAMN thing. Squirtle PLZ be viable bro, try your little turtly heart out man.
Oh yeah, to rub more salt in the wound, tripping someone with bubblebeam if they tech/away gets you not a DAMN thing. Squirtle PLZ be viable bro, try your little turtly heart out man.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
We all know the only reason anyone would play Squirtle is to watergun Lucas into his own thunder.
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