Bryonato
Green Hat
Fair enough. IMO most of his "goodness" was matchup inexperience.
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
I don't understand about Fox and Falco. Some of the Melee high tiers yes, it isn't obvious whether Jiggs is still great or how well Falcon/Ganon should be doing. Fox Falco are still in a dominant position and most of the Brawl newcomers don't impact that. Some of the Melee veteran buffs are nearly irrelevant on fighting spacies: Ness is still at a loss, DK is still a huge guy for Falco, Pikachu didn't get anything meaningful for fighting them besides Bair it seems, etc. Bowser probably had the most revolutionary change in his spacie MU's, but he still has others in the cast to answer to.This game is fun. We enjoy it thoroughly and frequently in my area.
Though I find forums to be a bizarre place, it's still fun to connect with a more public-masses community.
It's bizarre that on the forums, Fox and Falco (and generally the 'top-tier' melee cast) are regarded so highly, even when the dynamics of the game are so obviously untouched and yet other characters are nearly on-par with them in terms of validity in the global competitive scene.
I still think it's bizarre that characters like Luigi, Pikachu, Lucas, Sonic, Wario, DK, and others either so exceptionally diverse or so distinct and gimmicky are considered 'bad' by most. Sonic got a 'nerf' from 2.1, but only now is recognized as good, Wario got a 'buff' and yet is still recognized as bad. I can't wrap my head around why these trends take place over others, or why people gravitate and perceive things this way.
It seems people give too much concern into what the collective community thinks and interprets, and all of this is a result of over-stimulation/over-playing/over-analyzing what people 'understand' rather than simply experiencing what's happening for what it really is.
That's my interpretation of too much interpretation going on... lol
I'm glad to see the stability of things, and when characters like Luigi and Lucas aren't touched in a transition, I have a lot of steady confidence in the development team and community in general.
The transition from Brawl to Project : M is on par with DotA (WC3 engine) to Valve's DotA2, in terms of quality, potential final result, and progress in that direction. When care is put into something, it shows, and a lot of care has been put into Project: M so far.
Good stuff everyone.
Practice awareness, the development of the play will come, with yourselves and others. Never forget to work with your own awareness.
The experiencing of what is, without interpretation, brings freedom from what is.
People are awesome, you guys got this!
PS/Edit: Needs more good stages.
-Bamesy
In other words, people didn't pay attention worth **** to anything of value, and instead relied on the redundant eventual play to emerge before looking at it at all. Just like the immeasurable quantities of other OBVIOUS BEYOND REASON things that everyone is missing, and 'trying' (hehe) to discourage me from having faith in the awesomeness of people!On the Sonic note, people started paying attention more to Wizz and Sethlon. 2.1 Sonic was lame in some regards, and very few people besides the ones who had to play Sethlon on a consistent basis seemed to have anything to say (partly also because his more aggressive playstyle would showcase the lameness of Side B more than Wizz would in the past imo). It wasn't until 2.5 and the publicized changes that people actually payed attention to Sonic (go figure) and so we kinda went from unknown/bad opinions due to not seeing Sonic played, and turned into "holy cow Sonic"
aka Mr. Condescending.nooo it's bamesy the essay man :[
It's only condescending if it's not true and you're not comfortable with the ideas.aka Mr. Condescending.
The invincibility that existed in the first six frames of aerial side b? That's the extent of your claim for why 2.1 sonic was better than 2.5 sonic?The amount of invincibility on Sideb in the way that Rat and Wizzrobe used it. You couldn't just "stick out a hitbox" one of Sonic's weaker points because he just beat you instead.
Of course a lot of it is opinionated. I can back up quite a bit of it with tournament results though: Fox and Falco did not fall off the face of the Earth, and Pikachu probably would have crappy placements if examined closely. If you want to make the argument that the overall metagame is being experienced through a tinted lens, and that we really don't know much yet, I would not fully agree but you're free to make that point if you want. The game is young and certainly there will be progress and shifts made, but these posits you put forth sound like very vague and very "anti-establishment" statements. Because we are human, that we're bound to get it wrong and be narrow minded and aimlessly explore characters or blindly follow the herd. I do agree that plenty of times competitively, people will copy strategies and ideas that seem solid and the masses pour time into those things, without looking at the big picture and taking the risk of exploring other options to find counters or viable alternatives in characters and strategies. Not just in Smash, but in other games as well. Everyone here is tired of Pokemon, but to use that as an example, everyone and their grandma will run Rain Offense "just cause".
Forums are fun too.
I love essays.
DMG this is almost all for you.
Oro... You don't need the trend, she's already a beast.
Some of the stuff you wrote is quite opinionated, so I won't touch on anything too much. To each their own, but a couple things I'll just briefly point out.
Uncertainty regarding 'melee-transfers' while knowing Fox/Falco are still significantly functional is understandable, and expected. Nothing will really impact this, it would be weird if something did. haha
Developing Dynamics
The thing about gimmicks though is that people are using them (and possible future applications) as a backbone for actual viability. Pikachu's QAC AS a solid offensive option does not seem likely and people are not proving it to be anything more than a gimmick. Yet, there are lists out there that specifically say "I think Pika is/can be this high because we haven't explored his QAC fully". Being unexplored and not fully fleshed out, is not a free card to viability lol. Sometimes, having variety does not help a character, and there have been some ridiculous "future theory's" based on those gimmicks or variable tools. All the cool stuff Lucas can do, half of it maybe not even that great. "But but! Options! Variety! Surprise!" etc.Gimmicks don't affect actual viability, but they usually tend to artificially inflate a character a bit. Kinda like false hope. Not just in analysis, but in results too. Especially early on, it would not be a surprise for a gimmick/character to get wins or for counters/holes to not be as developed. And with that said, that's another reason why I have more faith that Fox Falco are still at the top, because the line between Bowser actually being top 5 (results certainly prove that), and Bowser being carried through this part of the metagame due to a lack of knowledge or experience on how to counter him, that line is not very clear right now. For the established Melee characters, I think it's harder to argue that they will solidly be toppled than it is to argue any of the new/buffed characters to suddenly lose their luster.Gimmicks
Who would be someone paying attention though? Like what would you define that as? Again, when I say the community at large, I did not mean anyone with a voice. I primarily mean quality tournament players. Now fine, say that literally the entire mass public is dumb and we are playing the game in such a wrong way that even the pros and top players are getting wrong. Meanwhile the gang of 5 in xyz city is getting it right. We have opportunities for people to go to tournaments and prove themselves/what they think. If they can't go or can't support it themselves in tournament, you would expect to see some indication of what they are talking about from other competent people in tournament. The odds of a master DK player in the most remote area of North Dakota, doing it completely right, and Strong Bad + friends have it totally wrong, is extraordinarily low.And this contradicts itself...
With that, I'll rephrase your whole paragraph for you...
And with this quote...
In other words, people didn't pay attention worth **** to anything of value, and instead relied on the redundant eventual play to emerge before looking at it at all. Just like the immeasurable quantities of other OBVIOUS BEYOND REASON things that everyone is missing, and 'trying' (hehe) to discourage me from having faith in the awesomeness of people!
Awareness people!
It's easy. Really.
I'm still doing Dota 1, and most ppl never had Dotakeys+Warkeys: where I have 3 items trigger off of mouse wheel up, mouse wheel down, and space. And Auto spells like Fire arrows I can turn off and on by pressing Alt. And I need to be able to use control groups where I have Hero on 2 Courier on 1 and Fortify on 3. Can Dota 2 do all of that?The transition from Brawl to Project : M is on par with DotA (WC3 engine) to Valve's DotA2, in terms of quality, potential final result, and progress in that direction. When care is put into something, it shows, and a lot of care has been put into Project: M so far.
does anyone know if NCR is gonna have a stream for melee? i just realized that NCR is this weekend, and im iffy on streaming with shadic if its happening, im betting we probably wont have as many viewers as usual (10-20) if thats happening. im more then likely gonna stream, then if we dont get enough viewers, just shut it down
I'm not sure about mouse wheel rotations as items, so you might have complications there.I'm still doing Dota 1, and most ppl never had Dotakeys+Warkeys: where I have 3 items trigger off of mouse wheel up, mouse wheel down, and space. And Auto spells like Fire arrows I can turn off and on by pressing Alt. And I need to be able to use control groups where I have Hero on 2 Courier on 1 and Fortify on 3. Can Dota 2 do all of that?
This is the stuff I don't understand. Examined closely, Pikachu would be... worse than Melee? Better, but overall the rest of the Melee cast improve 'more' than Pika?Pikachu probably would have crappy placements if examined closely.
It for sure can sound anti-establishment if you interpret it that way. Don't, though, as it really isn't. You just said the exact same thing in a blanket statement too.The game is young and certainly there will be progress and shifts made, but these posits you put forth sound like very vague and very "anti-establishment" statements. Because we are human, that we're bound to get it wrong and be narrow minded and aimlessly explore characters or blindly follow the herd. I do agree that plenty of times competitively, people will copy strategies and ideas that seem solid and the masses pour time into those things, without looking at the big picture and taking the risk of exploring other options to find counters or viable alternatives in characters and strategies. Not just in Smash.
I like that your arguing from the spacies perspective. People know that Falco can lame them out/Fox can spike them, and they've learned how to get around it. People still know how to lame people out as Falco/shine them as Fox.The pendulum swings both ways, and frankly it may be more scary for the new characters because they have not been shine gimped and Falco lamed for the past 10+ years, where as everyone has a "general" idea of what lame stuff to do on Spacies. Sure, people may not have a Lucas 0-death on Fox down, but at the same time it's probably more likely that Lucas knows how to get an easy 50% from a vertical juggle where as the Fox/Falco player has to relearn a new character fall/weight status and recovery option and xyz facet.
That's why I'm skeptical, because sometimes it really doesn't matter what you can do to Spacies if they do better or lamer things from neutral before you can. Like Wario can do ridiculously nasty things to Falco, but absolutely crumbles up close and has a hard time with lasers. Being able to Uthrow CG into Waft might make it look 50/50 or better
What his BnB combos are on my character.
Good, depth in MU discussion is pointless unless purposefully doing it for a reason.Although it was not an in depth MU discussion for each character I briefly stated that the buffs or changes those characters got probably aren't enough to shift the MU. Ness lost to them in Melee, so what sense would your statement make? They can't be at a loss vs Ness unless he was buffed hugely or unless he was winning in Melee. Neither was the case.
Exactly, you understood my post. :DThis isn't an example of me crafting false MU's or stating what I want to hear, to reinforce it to myself. If a character lost to them in Melee, then obviously you look to see if they got buffed to a point that things have changed. Which is easy, because the Spacie side has not changed (much), so you only have 1 character to analyze from the buff side. If I'm underrating the buffs or not fully understanding them at this time, then that is what you should call into question, instead of whether I'm just crafting things up to support my side with little regard to what the actual MU may be.
Maybe you didn't understand all of it, haha. If you read the post, you should understand what the response would be, and realize your post is nearly 100% confirming the points and in line with it. Good stuff.I COULD go in depth about Ness or Pika or Luigi's options and explain in many words why I feel that way, but it would be a bit disheartening if the response would be "Well you don't know for sure, meta isn't fleshed out. Who knows, QAC is like the son of Jesus amazing things are in the future etc." I don't have a crystal ball, but the purpose of making progress and trying to understand the game does get hampered if you strongly adhere to a philosophy of basically "The only thing I am certain of, is that I know nothing".
Exactly. You got/get it.The thing about gimmicks. For the established Melee characters, I think it's harder to argue that they will solidly be toppled than it is to argue any of the new/buffed characters to suddenly lose their luster.
Exactly. I think it was late summer/early fall that I read multiple times, players commenting that they knew they won due to this 'newness' nature. Hylian (a Link player) said it was a big factor in why he beat a solid Peach player, for example. It popped up on the forums about a dozen times in the course of a few months.Then you have non gimmicks or situations where people just get caught off guard or lacking in experience, and those moments go on to be used as the basis for viability and MU spreads. I would *like* to hope that the majority of incidents are MU inexperience and non gimmicks prevailing instead of some janky cheese mode that has flaws people aren't abusing yet. And on the note of lesser characters, I think that honestly what will happen is that people will truly explore the solid options, that those will fail to be truly good enough, and that further gimmicks will be explored at that point to try and get an edge on the player at least. I don't think TL or Luigi players for example are actually trying to BS their way against Marth and Sheik and Spacies at this point. But as time goes on and things don't improve, I definitely can imagine the "janky" stuff coming into play as the last possible shot.
I'm going to erase the part of the quote where you call people 'dumb' and 'wrong' because I don't like that. HMPF lolWho would be someone paying attention though? Like what would you define that as?
Wrong and Worship in the same sentence, as interpreted from one of my posts about growth and learning from more sources than the immediately tangible... ew man. LOLWith your logic, I could argue that he is part of the mass that is getting it wrong, and that there's actually a group of people in South Brazil that are masters of the game and that we should worship their knowledge. It also defeats the idea of trying to analyze anything in the present.
Good, it's not really something that can be disagreed with anyway.You can make the argument or point that we are currently ignorant of the actual meta and actual viability, and that we will see our errors in the future. That's perfectly fine to make and it's an argument I respect.
But, in the same paragraph, you cannot also say "Btw, Luigi should be higher guys, you are silly and doing it wrong and nobody knows the future BUT ME!".
You can't offer serious opinions of characters and viability, if the crux of your argument or message is so strongly entrenched in the idea that "We know nothing". We don't know the future or how to play very effectively, but yet you know why we're wrong on Pika and Luigi and xyz?
It's a bit hypocritical and undermines your original message imo. You can be the guy that inspires people to explore the game and to challenge the herd. But don't toss in opinions after that. Explore + opinion is fine, "Everyone sucks" + opinion is a no no.