Project M Social Thread

[TheReflexWonder]

I am more looking for an argument AGAINST adding ledge grab diminishing returns. I know it may not be necessary.

Because certain Melee players wouldn't like it.

 

[Stevo]

Because certain Melee players wouldn't like it.

lol true, but certain melee players would be against any kind of change from melee.

 

[ph00tbag]

My friend thought that as well, then he met Wolf's d-smash. If it becomes that bad, a ledge grab limit could be put in the rule sets rather easily I imagine.

And with it being Melee, there are ways around most ledge stalling, and in general there are better ways of fighting, for both competitors, than ledge stalling. Unlike Brawl, the ledge isnt the safest place.

You ought to read David Sirlin's article on why Guilty Gear is the best balanced fighting game. It'll teach you why this mentality is not a good one for game design.

What it boils down to is that you're gambling that nothing will come up that outright breaks a particular mechanic. Sure, you may be right. But you could also be very wrong. It just comes down to luck, and really, it's better to just put in a safeguard so that in the event you're wrong, then you have a fallback option.

Basically, if you have some kind of diminishing returns mechanic on ledge grabs, and there's never any broken ledgestalling method, then it's a wash, and the worst you can say is you have an unnecessary balance mechanic. But if there is a broken ledgestall tactic, then you have a ready-made way to balance it, and a lot of time down the road is saved from trying to fix broken **** so you can actually fine tune the game's more subtle balance issues.

 

[cannedbread]

beyonce is illuminati smh lmao

 

[Tmacc]

Had a fun little round robin tournament at a smashfest here yesterday, thought I would post the results just cause.

1st/2nd*: Tmacc 13-9
(3-2 vs Hylian, 3-2 vs Geno, 3-0 vs Sam, 1-3 vs Darkatma, 3-2 vs Paul)

* Hylian wins if tiebreaker goes : Sets -> Wins/Losses -> Head to Head
* Tmacc wins if tiebreaker goes: Sets -> Head to Head -> Wins/Losses

I used Marth and Lucas too, just for the record

 

[SpiderMad]

Games that kicked ***

Ps1
MicroManiacs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzBs1id7pbY
The Unholy War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp-VTM8IzN0

Ps2
Savage Skies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqYGOx4aPL8

GC
Lost Kingdoms 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw7jjSzhd3Q
Gotcha Force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRt3rOKI27w

I am more looking for an argument AGAINST adding ledge grab diminishing returns. I know it may not be necessary.

I can just tell you I don't like the Idea: as much as you'd think it'd help, it'd add an unnecessary aspect to something that was already partly addressed. Ledge invincibility was reduced by 1 frame than Melee's, Melee's is 1 frame less than Brawl's. If you reduced it any more it could very well take the point out of refreshing your invincibility or the points of using it when you're doing something to get back on the stage (The first laser of ledge hop DL being invincible and stuff like this). But that's if you reduce it anymore, if we talk about the diminish idea I think that has issues as well. Well first off it's not like Brawl/Melee, but you're really taking away options as well: and I frankly think that's stupid (depending on the level of it). Ike's 2 WJ limit took away a lot of options, as well as the options the opponent had to deal with it. If you can't deal with ledge stalling in P:M (which is again 1 frame less than Melee's), then either it's slightly your character's inabilities or mostly you're inabilities as a player. Again though, the 1 frame thing does make a difference along with Sheik's Shino stall being much harder to perform: this isn't the same concepts when applied to Melee. In P:M you should be FULLY capable to deal with it, and if you're not then that's just stupid that the game deals with it for you by ripping out an in-depth aspect that's seen as just an annoying problem. You might think you're going to gain so many positive aspects about how you have to "think" about how many times you re-grab the edge, just like the phony statement Ike has to "space" his moves, but you'll see that it's artificial depth and subtracts other aspects and options from the game (Ike's spacing ideal isn't decent like Marth's, it's already a flimsy ideal that you have to hit with the closer portion of the move: but his moves are slow which adds to the issue in a lot of ways).

Adding diminishes/limits to everything doesn't always add depth, it can create boring and uncreative (predetermined) play/characters; similar to Brawl thinking it was a good idea to make you think more about stale moves so it added direct KB staling upon already Melee's damage staling.

 

[traffic.]

but why cant we just change the game so i dont have to get better at stuff

Spoiler

l cancel discussion

:x

 

[BrandX]

So who here actually plays on wifi lol

 

[DMG]

I'm forced to quite often. Not many people play the game locally from what I can tell, and although Dallas has a pretty solid scene going on they are still roughly 2 hours away from me.

 

[Kink-Link5]

So who here actually plays on wifi lol

You know I'm willing to play with you, and then I can get 50% comboed in SG afterward lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I can just tell you I don't like the Idea: as much as you'd think it'd help, it'd add an unnecessary aspect to something that was already partly addressed. Ledge invincibility was reduced by 1 frame than Melee's, Melee's is 1 frame less than Brawl's. If you reduced it any more it could very well take the point out of refreshing your invincibility or the points of using it when you're doing something to get back on the stage (The first laser of ledge hop DL being invincible and stuff like this). But that's if you reduce it anymore, if we talk about the diminish idea I think that has issues as well. Well first off it's not like Brawl/Melee, but you're really taking away options as well: and I frankly think that's stupid (depending on the level of it). Ike's 2 WJ limit took away a lot of options, as well as the options the opponent had to deal with it. If you can't deal with ledge stalling in P:M (which is again 1 frame less than Melee's), then either it's slightly your character's inabilities or mostly you're inabilities as a player. Again though, the 1 frame thing does make a difference along with Sheik's Shino stall being much harder to perform: this isn't the same concepts when applied to Melee. In P:M you should be FULLY capable to deal with it, and if you're not then that's just stupid that the game deals with it for you by ripping out an in-depth aspect that's seen as just an annoying problem. You might think you're going to gain so many positive aspects about how you have to "think" about how many times you re-grab the edge, just like the phony statement Ike has to "space" his moves, but you'll see that it's artificial depth and subtracts other aspects and options from the game (Ike's spacing ideal isn't decent like Marth's, it's already a flimsy ideal that you have to hit with the closer portion of the move: but his moves are slow which adds to the issue in a lot of ways).

Adding diminishes/limits to everything doesn't always add depth, it can create boring and uncreative (predetermined) play/characters; similar to Brawl thinking it was a good idea to make you think more about stale moves so it added direct KB staling upon already Melee's damage staling.

Disagree--Invincibility frames are generally a polarizing aspect of any fighting game, and the current ledge invincibility allows most characters to be in neutral position with invincibility frames still active for long enough to do an invincible grab, Jab, fast tilt/Smash, or just go back to the ledge, and I think that it could get to be a problem, especially when it makes every other ledge option obsolete.

Only time will tell, I suppose...

 

[Kink-Link5]

To be honest I think I'd rather have a 5-grab-in-a-row forced limit like how tethers have a 3-grab limit than diminishing invincibility.

And I don't want a forced grab limit.

 

[BrandX]

You know I'm willing to play with you, and then I can get 50% comboed in SG afterward lol

Lol we'll probably be even then cause I suck at P:M XD

 

[DMG]

I have been told that I am the Wifi mass destructor/fun ruiner/Jedi by my friends. They'd rather play vs each other, or force me to go characters I'm not familiar with to get an edge.

 

[GMaster171]

Sorry for not responding, I had gone to sleep after posting last.

@Ph00tbag
I understand what you mean, punishing people for doing nothing would be bad, but allowing a one sided mechanic to be abused would be equally bad.

If possible, would ledge invincibility after 5 grabs be a good compromise? 4 or 5 regrabs isnt really stalling, its just choosing your time to come back to the stage. If you look at almost any player, they do 2 or 3 almost every time they recover, to be unpredictable when coming back, not to stall the clock. It wouldn't effect the current game play, but it would punish deliberate stalling.

These are just thoughts, not really suggestions. If it becomes a trend at any point, it might be needed, but until then I think it can do without it.

 

[Stevo]

thanks for the responses guys.

I really don't think it would affect gameplay much, especially if you made it diminish at a slow rate (or just made the frist few grabs the full invincibility). Perhaps it might be best to just wait until it shows to be abusable. I'm pretty sure SOMETHING is going to come up, just a matter of time imo.

 

[Revven]

I probably already know the answer to this question, but will P:M have a panel at EVO?

We're trying to get in touch with Mr.Wizard or the Cannons to find out whether or not we qualify for a panel and/or booth like at Apex 2013.

We'll let everybody know for sure as soon as we can, but we're not promising anything. However, some of us are going to attempt to go to Evo anyway whether or not P:M is there in some form. So you should definitely try to find some of us!

 

[Oracle]

DMG why you never play with us on wifi

 

[DMG]

Cause I'm usually already playing with my friends if I'm on wifi lol. You or Steve invite me sometime

 

[otter]

been playing p:m since friday, and as expected, I am loving Ivysaur. I had to change my control scheme because apparently you cant short hop on the shoulder buttons in this game. I really don't like the idea of having jumping and attacking share a finger (marvel player), but ill get used to it.

L canceling is easier than I expected although I still have trouble getting things to combo according to training mode. cant wavedash effectively though...

 

[JOE!]

Training mode records "true" combos, aka hits that will always link. Due to DI however its possible to get large strings of hits just by reading the foe, not guarenteed, but certainly rewarding and much more involved.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'm still surprised no one else loves the Wifi light press air dodge

 

[SunJester]

I really hope you guys can get PM into Evo. It'd be pretty cool if you could steal away some of the innevitable new Melee players and get them to play the far superior Smash game. =D

 

[Kati]

^

Also, wifi is still wifi... but does this advance apply to replays?

 

[iLink]

I'm still surprised no one else loves the Wifi light press air dodge

I actually prefer it

 

[DMG]

My Wifi replays have worked so far.

 

[iLink]

I've gotten a few desynchs with replays of ZSS. Clanking with her whip seems to be causing it.

 

[ph00tbag]

General concerns about some internally imposed lgl.

Just to create a baseline, have you ever had to deal much with Charizard's ledgestall infinite?

 

[Slashy]

So Pat Cashman (Brawl's voice for Master Hand), added me as a connection on LinkedIn. I left it up to Strong Bad to figure out how to hopefully seize this opportunity and get him to say the game's title.

However, Dean Harrington (Melee's voice for Master Hand) was REALLY interested in Project:M and was willing to voice overs if the community was willing to compensate him. Considering what we managed for EVO/Breast cancer, this will be a walk in the park.

So perhaps if sound replacement is possible for Project:M, you'll be able to pick between the Brawl and Melee announcers!

 

[ZelDan]

Pat Cashman did VA in Bill Nye the Science Guy, so I say him.

 

[RaynEX]

Just to create a baseline, have you ever had to deal much with Charizard's ledgestall infinite?

We're talking about ledgedrop glide re-grab right?

 

[Yung Mei]

So Pat Cashman (Brawl's voice for Master Hand), added me as a connection on LinkedIn. I left it up to Strong Bad to figure out how to hopefully seize this opportunity and get him to say the game's title.

However, Dean Harrington (Melee's voice for Master Hand) was REALLY interested in Project:M and was willing to voice overs if the community was willing to compensate him. Considering what we managed for EVO/Breast cancer, this will be a walk in the park.

So perhaps if sound replacement is possible for Project:M, you'll be able to pick between the Brawl and Melee announcers!

theres no question about it, Dean Harrington :D

 

[batistabus]

So Pat Cashman (Brawl's voice for Master Hand), added me as a connection on LinkedIn. I left it up to Strong Bad to figure out how to hopefully seize this opportunity and get him to say the game's title.

However, Dean Harrington (Melee's voice for Master Hand) was REALLY interested in Project:M and was willing to voice overs if the community was willing to compensate him. Considering what we managed for EVO/Breast cancer, this will be a walk in the park.

So perhaps if sound replacement is possible for Project:M, you'll be able to pick between the Brawl and Melee announcers!

WHAT. MY POOR WALLET. Let's get him to do it without the echo effect this time, please.

Also,

OK, here is what im proposing.

Apex ruleset. Ice climbers are free to wobble, pause disabled, 4 stock, 8 minutes, 2/3 games, warmups limited to 30 seconds (to make sure your controllers are working).

We will narrow it down to top 8 via one day, but you can play casuals and run side tournaments the other free day.

Thoughts?

Melee doubles with P:M side-tournament? Please?

 

[Jolteon]

So Pat Cashman (Brawl's voice for Master Hand), added me as a connection on LinkedIn. I left it up to Strong Bad to figure out how to hopefully seize this opportunity and get him to say the game's title.

However, Dean Harrington (Melee's voice for Master Hand) was REALLY interested in Project:M and was willing to voice overs if the community was willing to compensate him. Considering what we managed for EVO/Breast cancer, this will be a walk in the park.

So perhaps if sound replacement is possible for Project:M, you'll be able to pick between the Brawl and Melee announcers!

Source ?

 

[Slashy]

Source ?

Let me see if I still have the emails, I doubt I do.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm fine with no doubles. Melee's main attraction is already in, and those other events can be delegated to smash-specific events and venues, should they prove cumbersome for something like EVO.

#freeiceclimbers
#boingboingboing

 

[Slashy]

Source ?

I know I mentioned emailing him in this thread a year ago.

 

[batistabus]

Let me see if I still have the emails, I doubt I do.

-.-

Emails don't typically delete themselves, and I'm not sure why you would delete a message like that...

 

[Slashy]

-.-

Emails don't typically delete themselves, and I'm not sure why you would delete a message like that...

Because I used an email service that gives me 100MB of storage...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Why would you not delete the junk mail and stuff from 5 years ago first lol

I highly doubt that that is your genuine rational behind whatever it is you're trying to defend your self with.