Project M Social Thread

[shanus]

uh, GFX nitpicks can be valuable. Personally, I've never loved the ganon fair purplefire as an example. If everyone hates it, we can remove it. If most people like it, we can keep it.

Either way FroHo, don't be so dismissive of people please. Especially over an argument as simple as graphics!

 

[FrozenHobo]

i don't recall the wbr being very open when i presented my arguments against including sandbag when B+ was first implementing WWR as a legal stage...

 

[ManEg]

and humble, just for the record: side-b gerudo dragon/flame choke, down-b wizard's foot, neutral-b warlock punch. Sorry for nitpicking, I like ganon :D

 

[humble]

k. but you do understand its not your call, right? you can complain and argue all you want, but its not really going to do much...

I know, I have no power to affect any of the decisions regarding P:M. What I can do is make my opinions and input known, and hope that the team takes it into consideration. This thread is here to discuss, hype, showcase, update, and share with us, the smash community, what is going on with the Project. Its a venue for us to share our input on all the developments, changes, videos, etc. So I'm giving input and trying to persuade others to consider my opinions and ideas, because I would like to see P:M turn out in the best possible form, and I am trying to find ways to point discussion to generate more ideas to improve the project. I'm limited to the use of words and posts to do what I can; I don't have any influence on the decisions, so all I can hope for is that my input reaches the team and is considered. I never intended to complain nor argue, I am sorry if I came across in such a manner, my sole intent was to put forth my view point.

i don't recall the wbr being very open when i presented my arguments against including sandbag when B+ was first implementing WWR as a legal stage...

Frozen, its unfortunate that others were close minded and weren't open to the free exchange of ideas, or that they failed to consider the merits of your idea, however I want to ask; do you really want to emulate them and their poor behavior? You personally experienced what it felt like when someone else was close minded and unwilling to consider your ideas, so why make the choice to treat someone else that way?

 

[FrozenHobo]

alright. i know i came across as being very blunt. its my nature. i do understand that you have good intentions.

 

[cubaisdeath]

Humble, Melee chaingrabs aren't as cheap as they seem and a lot of them (if not all of them) require good prediction, concentration, and some only work under certain condtions. That doesn't mean that Shiek, ICs and D3 aren't going to have highly effective chain grabs but for most of the cast you probably don't need to worry.

sheik has a very hard time chaingrabbing in PM as it is because of the PAL trajectory on her dthrow. its not like she really needs chaingrabs anyways, her combo game is incredible, and grabs are really just allowing free followups, like with most characters throws. DDD chaingrab on the otherhand is hilarious. he looks like an overweight marth.

And in regards to Yoshi, he definitely needs a buff. For his up-b would giving him egg cancelling or increased thrown egg airspeed help with his approach/ defense?

you need to go into more detail when you say "egg canceling." as far as I know, you can do a running up b to the edge, and have the egg come out as you grab the edge. I honestly don't think you need to increase anything on the up b, except for maybe damage. he can camp good enough with them as is, seeing as you can control how far and fast they go, as well as the trajectory. the only thing that sucks about that is that its very easy to wavebounce eggs. wavebouncing an egg off stage after you've used your jump really sucks. airdodge can only save you half of the time if you're lucky lol

Also, I've noticed that yoshi goes up, forward, and down when using his down b on the ground. Is it possible for this effect to also apply in the air? It would give him an extra vertical (and minimal horizontal) boost for recovering. I also think bowser's down b should operate in a similar fashion when used in the air.

wtf? lol. thats not really needed tbh. he has a better double jump, multiple up bs, and a directional airdodge. part of playing yoshi is dealing with his bull**** bad recovery. look at falco. just because his recovery sucks doesn't mean we have to make it better

 

[L/A/W]

uh, GFX nitpicks can be valuable. Personally, I've never loved the ganon fair purplefire as an example. If everyone hates it, we can remove it. If most people like it, we can keep it.

Either way FroHo, don't be so dismissive of people please. Especially over an argument as simple as graphics!

would this be the case for mewtwo if you got a good vertex for him?

 

[cubaisdeath]

ugh, lucario is much better than mewtwo will ever be

 

[Revven]

would this be the case for mewtwo if you got a good vertex for him?

How many times must this be said?

We're not including Mewtwo without a clone engine. You can add him freely when it's out but know it's not apart of the main set.

 

[humble]

and humble, just for the record: side-b gerudo dragon/flame choke, down-b wizard's foot, neutral-b warlock punch. Sorry for nitpicking, I like ganon :D

I know the proper names, but I wasn't really thinking about the names so much when I typed them- as long as you knew what I was referring to, it served its purpose. And I like ganon as well, but his greatness need not be confined to proper names. His destruction is equal no matter what you call it.


@L/A/W- They have stated many times over that they will not be replacing any characters, and Mewtwo will only be in if they have a working clone engine. Because currently to get him in the game you would have to remove a character, and that would be unfair to all the people who wish to use that character, and we cannot justify the removal of one character for another- I mained Mewtwo in Melee, and he was my favorite character, and I was upset when he wasn't in Brawl. However its been 3 years(?) since Brawl came out, and at this point you just can't reasonably expect for anyone to be removed from the cast, even to allow the return of a much beloved character such as Mewtwo.

 

[GP&B]

I sympathize with the people who find Lucario super boring. Maybe it's just the GFX and SFX in combination that makes him feel so bland and uninteresting.

However, I'm not supporting the replacement of him on such a silly basis. At the very least, if others find that the SFX with the aura attacks are annoying too, we could redirect them to a different sound call. It's a very minor complaint for me seeing as I never use Lucario though.

 

[cubaisdeath]

lol, his sound effects are pretty goofy. blame goku for that. but overall, in character design, playstyle, and overall aesthetics, lucario is way better than mewtwo. don't get me wrong, having mewtwo would be cool and all, but I just see it as pointless with lucario still there

 

[humble]

In regards to Yoshi, it is fairly obvious he needs to be buffed. You could play to his strengths, or his weaknesses. If you buff his strengths, he'll do really well in some matchups where he can abuse his strengths, and he'll have some abysmal matches where they can take advantage his weaknesses. On the other hand, if you fix his weak areas, he'll be more even across the board. Of course, we have yet to see anyone play P:M yoshi, and no work has been done (at least from what we've seen in the thread) on him, so he is largely a blank canvas for the creativity of the team to work with. And as he is currently one of the worse characters in the game (still retains flaws from brawl) he'll probably need more then a few tweaks to make him a P:M character that stands a chance.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm just gonna say that the fact Mewtwo is a ****** is a perfectly logical reason for replacing Lucario with him.

 

[cubaisdeath]

lol strongbad

 

[humble]

I'm just gonna say that the fact Mewtwo is a ****** is a perfectly logical reason for replacing Lucario with him.

While I loved Mewtwo and want to play him in P:M, I also feel like it wouldn't be fair to do so, and I think its important to think of others before coming to a decision.

I wish a capable Programmer would look into allowing Alloys to do the few actions that are still limited for them (grabbing the ledge, shielding, grabs+throws, picking up items, rolls/spotdodges/airdodges) because they are three characters who no one would mind replacing, that would allow us to get Mewtwo and two others into the project.

 

[bleyva]

While I loved Mewtwo and want to play him in P:M, I also feel like it wouldn't be fair to do so, and I think its important to think of others before coming to a decision.

yea, lets think of all the others who believe that lucario sucks. its mewtwo time.

but im only for it if we can remove the purple fire from his fair

Spoiler

 

[OverLade]

So a few people in my region have copies of the Project M alpha build. I'm wondering, how could I participate in the testing, as my region has many melee players (who don't play brawl) that are really excited for it.

 

[humble]

So a few people in my region have copies of the Project M alpha build. I'm wondering, how could I participate in the testing, as my region has many melee players (who don't play brawl) that are really excited for it.

I support this, RedHalberd's a great player and you'd get some great replays for sure.

 

[ValTroX]

Hyped for Melee physics/camera, need stream...BADLY

 

[A Diamond For Disease]

Hyped for Melee physics/camera, need stream...BADLY

You're excited feel these nipples!

 

[Shadic]

So a few people in my region have copies of the Project M alpha build. I'm wondering, how could I participate in the testing, as my region has many melee players (who don't play brawl) that are really excited for it.

Send a PM to Shanus with a basic application. If your credentials are good (Assuming they are - BBR and all), you'll get accepted. We're looking for skilled (professional) players with feedback.

 

[I R MarF]

wtf? lol. thats not really needed tbh. he has a better double jump, multiple up bs, and a directional airdodge. part of playing yoshi is dealing with his bull**** bad recovery. look at falco. just because his recovery sucks doesn't mean we have to make it better

I feel you overestimated yoshi and I was only giving a realistic suggestion for giving Yoshi (and bowser) improved vertical recoveries.

Also I think Falco is a fairly bad example when comparing recoveries, Falco has more than one option (upb and side b), and his side b can also spike making it more risky to intercept. He (and the majority of the cast) can also meteor cancel, so endless yoshi gets a third jump of some kind, he is completely defenseless when meteor smashed.

Not to mention, Falco has lasers, shine, and speed making him overall a more effective and appealing character than Yoshi. So I am sure its easier for Falco mains for dealing with his bull**** bad recovery than Yoshi mains dealing with his bull**** bad recovery.

You also said that Yoshi has a good second jump; sure it goes pretty far but characters like Peach, Jiggs, MK, Kirby and Pit all have much superior second jumps and horizontal recovery options. Now why is it fair that they also get an extra b move recovery? (jiggs is the only exception, but her side b is world's better than yoshi's up b)

I also completely doubt that giving yoshi a recovery that is probably equal to kirby's up b and Ike's up b in effectiveness would in any way diminish the core concept of the character. Its just giving Yoshi a true recovery and defense against meteor smashing.

Also, when I was talking about egg cancelling, I pictured the technique operating similar to samus's missile cancelling. It could be broken but so are a lot of things in melee.

 

[Kix]

Couldn't the "thinking of others first" go the other way around? This is basically going to be the sequel to Melee, and people actually did play Mewtwo. Mewtwo was a character that could have had a lot more in Melee, and I think that since his playstyle is basically entirely missing, and not replicated by Lucario, that Lucario is secondary because he came later.

Forget the "three years" since Brawl thing, how long has Melee been out? What kind of game is this?

 

[iLink]

How many people HONESTLY used mewtwo in a serious match (tourney environment) and not just in friendlies?

 

[GP&B]

Taj.


._.

But I wouldn't know otherwise >_>.

 

[humble]

I feel you overestimated yoshi and I was only giving a realistic suggestion for giving Yoshi (and bowser) improved vertical recoveries.

Also I think Falco is a fairly bad example when comparing recoveries, Falco has more than one option (upb and side b), and his side b can also spike making it more risky to intercept. He (and the majority of the cast) can also meteor cancel, so endless yoshi gets a third jump of some kind, he is completely defenseless when meteor smashed.

Not to mention, Falco has lasers, shine, and speed making him overall a more effective and appealing character than Yoshi. So I am sure its easier for Falco mains for dealing with his bull**** bad recovery than Yoshi mains dealing with his bull**** bad recovery.

You also said that Yoshi has a good second jump; sure it goes pretty far but characters like Peach, Jiggs, MK, Kirby and Pit all have much superior second jumps and horizontal recovery options. Now why is it fair that they also get an extra b move recovery? (jiggs is the only exception, but her side b is world's better than yoshi's up b)

I also completely doubt that giving yoshi a recovery that is probably equal to kirby's up b and Ike's up b in effectiveness would in any way diminish the core concept of the character. Its just giving Yoshi a true recovery and defense against meteor smashing.

Also, when I was talking about egg cancelling, I pictured the technique operating similar to samus's missile cancelling. It could be broken but so are a lot of things in melee.

Yoshi has the highest airspeed in the game, the highest double jump in the game, which also has superarmor frames, and his egg allows him short rises. Essentially, he has a fine recovery.

How about instead of egg cancelling, he got egg lay canceling, where it cancels all startup on landing and goes straight to the grab frames? I ask because improving a good projectile means he would be encouraged to maintain a distance, whereas buffing his egg lay means he'll try to close in and play his good boxing game and try to pressure them. Also, I suggest for egg lay that the perfect egg lay, where if you space if exactly right and hit them with the tip of the tongue, it pulls them in but doesn't swallow them, become the sweetspot hitbox, on the tip of his tongue, like samus's zair sweetspot. It'd be useful because it'd make it a reliable thing to pull off, while allowing him to pull opponent in and combo them.

 

[I R MarF]

I love mewtwo, but I honestly believe Lucario has more opportunity for his meta game.

Also, creating a solid mewtwo vertex hack, and rebuilding his animations would stall the project. Not to mention the significant buffs he would require later down the road.

 

[King Funk]

How many people HONESTLY used mewtwo in a serious match (tourney environment) and not just in friendlies?

Taj.

I guess only one.

 

[humble]

How many people HONESTLY used mewtwo in a serious match (tourney environment) and not just in friendlies?

I did ._.

 

[stingers]

and were successful?

obviously you have taj, and I believe v3ctorman...though thats really it

 

[OverLade]

Iori is a great mewtwo player isn't he?

 

[humble]

and were successful?

obviously you have taj, and I believe v3ctorman...though thats really it

only in locals, when I went regional I got owned.

 

[stingers]

oh yeah, iori. i forgot about him

 

[I R MarF]

Yoshi has the highest airspeed in the game, the highest double jump in the game, which also has superarmor frames, and his egg allows him short rises. Essentially, he has a fine recovery.

Eh, thats debatable. Yoshi wouldn't place 30th out of 37 (thats with Brawl Air dodge and up b boost) or 22nd out of 26 if his recovery was fine. I really hate to beat a dead horse but Yoshi needs some kind of recovery buff. If he gets knocked out of ledge proximity, shine spiked, or meteor smashed after losing his jump he is done for.

Also the egg lay thing sounds interesting, but I still believe the egg cancel would help yoshi with both approaches and guarding. I say: why not both egg lay cancelling and egg throw cancelling?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

People. This is Project Melee, not Melee. It includes Brawl characters, and includes ALL of them. It would not be fair to exclude any character just because replacing them with an ALREADY GONE character (like Mewtwo) would make it "more like Melee". Sakurai was already a **** for cutting any characters, so cutting even more just to replace them with the already gone characters is a load of bull.

 

[eisley]

I would say keep lucario but give him some mewtwo-esque attacks. Somehow blend mewtwo's melee style using lucario, something should be able to be accomplished.

 

[iLink]

Didn't Mewtwo's playstyle basically consist of getting grabs and setting up juggles?

 

[Dantarion]

Ur both wrong.

NTSC = 29.97 FramesPS in two interlaced fields, for a display of ~60FIELDSps. Think of it this way...its 30fps, but each refresh is half a frame at a time.
PAL = 25 FramesPS in two interlaced fields, for a display of ~50FIELDSps.

Read up on Wikipedia, NTSC is 29.97 because of signal bandwidth needed to add color, and PAL is 25fps because NTSC colors sucked.

STANDARDIZATION IS NEAT.

 

[Dantarion]

Eh, thats debatable. Yoshi wouldn't place 30th out of 37 (thats with Brawl Air dodge and up b boost) or 22nd out of 26 if his recovery was fine. I really hate to beat a dead horse but Yoshi needs some kind of recovery buff. If he gets knocked out of ledge proximity, shine spiked, or meteor smashed after losing his jump he is done for.

Also the egg lay thing sounds interesting, but I still believe the egg cancel would help yoshi with both approaches and guarding. I say: why not both egg lay cancelling and egg throw cancelling?

Talk to Olimar.

Its okay for a character to have a hard time recovering.
Its NOT okay for a character to not have tools to overcome their weeknesses. Olimar is a good example of a character with a glaring weakness, but tools to get around it.

I think we should give Yoshi 64 fair.
It would give him a deadly option when recoverying, and give him a combo setup move on stage.
*shudders thinking of how good 64 fair was*
Okay, maybe not TOO good, but I think it would help yoshi out.