Project M Social Thread

[ELI-mination]

I use Ike's counter like I use Ganon's utilt.

All the time

 

[metroid1117]

LOL ELI.

Counter can be good if you read (key word: read) an edgehopped attack from the edge, since the opponent will be hit right out of their double jump. This is particularly true if you're fighting an edge-hopped-laser-happy Falco.

Also, Charizard's BThrow is amazing.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, but at the same time, I've punished Ike for reading that they're going to counter, not by NOT hitting them during it but by actually HITTING them during the counter. I like to Aura Bomb a lot, not because it will hit but because of the insane shieldstun it induces, so it lets me get an easy grab > uthrow > bair kill on opponents at high %'s. However, this Ike buddy of mine whom I play with frequently has caught on to this and has started countering the aura bomb to kill me when I try this. How do I counter-attack? I run in and pretend I'm going to grab him to scare him into countering the Bomb. He counters and I grab the counter's attack lag. He's dead. There are plenty of other situations where I punish the lag of the counter attack's lag as well, that was just an easy one for me to remember.

Also this:

If they attack from above or below, even just slightly above or below, Ike will miss, and you'll get ****ed over for the lag there too.

Too many times have I triggered a counter from below a plat and got away chock free, proceeding to punish Ike for getting what we like to call a "good read".

 

[Stevo]

I should start punishing the lag of my opponents moves.

Sounds like a good strategy.

 

[bubbaking]

Sounds like a Smash strategy...

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's a good idea metroid, I'll look into that. Unfortunately if they miss or Ike misses or they don't even attack, they essentially get a free option from the ledge.
I've also had fun using it to punish low recoveries, space animals are easiest. Not that there aren't a million others ways to do that.
TBH I still think counter should be reworked. Preferably something to like a combination of Counter and Marth/Roy's side-bs: when successfully countering an opponents move, you get an option of 3 or four directional sword swings that have different functions, sort of like the options you get at any point in Dancing Blade. That way, he can cover the different areas the opponent might be in when he counters them, rather than just automatically missing unless they are directly behind him or directly in front of him...

Also look:
Current public version: Demo v2.1
Current dev version: r9500

neat
I hope PMBR aren't planning on making us wait til 10k though O_o

 

[JOE!]

Counter should do eruption

 

[DrinkingFood]

You can do that in minus iirc
I think you can also store a full eruption charge lol
maybe that was an old build but I don't remember anyone saying they changed that

 

[cannedbread]

ike is bad tier in minus

i want to play this game really badly

 

[bubbaking]

Ike is God Tier in Minus, and yes, you're right Drinking. He can still do that. My friend makes it a habit to spam Counter > Eruption for that very reason. XD

Edit: In Minus obv.

 

[Juushichi]

Ike was pretty OK in minus.

 

[bubbaking]

Any shielded move into Eruption was a guaranteed shield break. He basically punished you for shielding more than Ike, Lucario, or any spacee could do in this game. Then of course you had cancellable DAs and cancellable aerial QD's which gave rise to such shenanigans as floating Counters which led into floating Eruptions that covered a large area. In the right hands, he was quite beastly.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Bubba
what does that smiley even mean
I don't think you even know

 

[SFA Smiley]

Ike with the smash windboxes and healing aether XD

I loved Brawl Minus it's still my favorite mod, I never actually got good at it though because my friends and I just played it for fun.

Bowser, man...

Although I like this game's bowser more. Brawl Minus's was amazing but this one is more how bowser actually should be.

 

[bubbaking]

Bubba
what does that smiley even mean
I don't think you even know

It says : smash : so I interpret it the way I like and use it to denote broken things. I don't think smileys are meant to actually "mean" anything, not concretely anyway. For instance, could mean that something truly is awesome or that something is lolzy and shouldn't be taken seriously. What's the difference between and ? What's the difference between and ? What's the difference between and ? And when would I ever use ? I say it's all up to the reader's interpretation of what the writer wants to say.

#WebTalk101

 

[JOE!]

The subject of "what makes a character viable?" has popped up on Smashmods, and I think it may be an interesting point of discussion when it comes to the direction P:M takes it's characters.

My thoughts on it:

Spoiler

Maybe if it were broken down as such:

Mobility: (The ability for a character to move about)

Spoiler

Ground: (Movement while grounded, includes dashes, WD, walking, certain specials, etc)
-Agility: (Close-Quarters mobility, IE WD'ing and just weaving in and out)

-Speed: (Long-range mobility, getting from A to B quickly to follow opponents or escape and recuperate)
If a character does well in both these aspects, they have overall good ground mobility.

Air: (Movement while airborne, includes Fall Speed*, Air Speed, Air Control, Jump(s), and the ability to transfer from air to ground or vice versa)
-Agility: (Again, the ability for a character to maneuver around their opponent. In this case in order to get higher, get back to the ground safely, or just keep at them from the air or such. Jumping falls in here, including SH height, Full hop, Jump squat, etc)

-Speed: (The ability to get from A to B quickly, weather it's horizontal or vertical in this case. Mainly useful for offstage or vertical movement whereas agility is more useful for horizontal movement along the stage)
*Fall speed is a little awkward as it can either really help a character or hinder them based on which aspect you look at.
If a character does well in both these aspects, they have overall good air mobility.

If a character does well in both categories, they have overall good mobility. A case can be made for characters with extremes in one category to have overall good mobility as well, as one aspect could easily make up for another, such as having enough ground speed to follow up on aerially launched foes, or air speed to not have to run.

Offense: (The character's ability to inflict damage on another & KO)

Spoiler

Strength: (The raw damage and/or power the character can apply per move, as well as the follow-up options allowed)
-Power: (The damage or outright KO-ability potential a character has on average. Slightly hard to pin down, but characters like Bowser would have great showings here with large quantities of Knockback and Damage being slung about, whereas a character like Sonic has overall weaker Power due to having the opposite problem (mobility more than makes up for this, as we'll see in a bit). Other examples include Sheik (good damage, low power) and GW (low damage, high power))

-Reliability: (The ability for a character to actually capitalize on options or force options themselves, building/keeping momentum. Examples include being able to force opponents into edge-guards (Marth), follow up on launchers (Charizard), turn a throw into a near-auto aerial hit (Sheik/Fox) as well as taking advantage of shield (Ike/Falco) )
If a character does well in both aspects, they have a Strong offense. As with most all categories, extremes can make up for shortcomings in others, such as Sonic making up for Power with Reliability in how he can constantly build up hits and take advantage of a foe's position, or how Ganon's sheer power demands respect although his "reliability" factor can be a guessing game at times.

Safety: (The ability of a character to either space efficiently or simply land attacks / recover from misses efficiently)
-Spacing: (A character's reach/disjoint as well as mobility factoring in how easily they can hit the foe while not getting hit themselves. The former can come from both disjointed attacks (Marth/Ike) and projectiles (nearly everybody) to simply control the space around and in front of them. The latter equally controls space, but is a tad more dynamic in that the character moves the space they control around with them, either supplementing or making up for disjoints)

-Risk: (The commitment a character needs to put in overall to perform their offense. Characters like Fox for example have very low risk (good) as nearly all his moves sans Fsmash, Side B and Up B are safe to toss about (ignoring his own momentum and other factors that can be used against him such as fall speed), whereas somebody like Ike takes a lot of Risk to perform his offense due to most all of his moves having punishable lag (ignoring his amazing spacing), or GW as due to the nature of his attacks, he has to commit to them even if he doesn't hit, forfeiting positioning at times. Priority helps in this aspect amazingly, as Marth for example can be baited into commitment, his large disjoints and damage leads to lower risk thanks to priority attacks)
Characters with good Spacing and Low risk have amazing Safety. As always, character can make up for one aspect with extremes with Good Spacing/High Risk (Ike, Link) or Low Spacing/Low Risk(Fox, he has low "real" range).

Overall, if a character has great strength and safety, they are bound to have an amazing offense. Unlike mobility where both aspects are sorta equal, Safety is a bigger issue at higher levels of play than Strength, but both are important aspects in the long run.

Defense: (The ability for a character to avoid offense of others, mitigate incoming damage, and eventually just survive)

Spoiler

Mitigation: (Avoidance, Spacing, Shield-utility and Misc. other tools used to take the least damage/KB possible)
-Avoidance: ("Don't get hit", characters with good avoidance can either just cover their hurtbox with hitboxes really well (Marth) to simply lessend the chance of an opponent getting to them, or simply have the mobility and/or pressure to make sure they're rarely in a position for them to get hit by a combo-starter or a finishing move)

-Shield: (A character's shield options, including Jump, Usmash, Grab, rolls (lol), etc, as well as how well they deal with shield pressure. Special shields can also go here if applicable, such as Reflectors, Absorbers (Earthbound), and traps/minions which can act as deterrents (Snake) or simply take hits for you (Waddles/Pikmin))
Both schools of "Nogethitsu" are great, but higher level play seems to favor Avoidance, at least in Melee. Characters with amazing OoS options however can be equally as effective as it becomes hard to effectively build an offense against them. Characters with good traits in both have good Mitigation vs offense.

Durability: (A character's ability to recover not only to the stage, but from combos, juggles, hits in general and to reset bad situations)
-Recovery: (Actually recovering from off-stage. A character's recovery generally has to cover a good amount of distance (horizontally and vertically) as well as be versatile/safe in order to get by edge-guard attempts once in range of the edge/stage. Recoveries have their own nuances per character, but just like everything else: high safety can make up for low distance (Falco's versatility within X range), and sheer range can make up for safety (try and gimp Peach when she can recover high). Weight, Fall Speed and Air Speed all factor in here as they determine how far you can recover from/get launched offstage)

-Survival: (The character's CC-ability/options, DI, ability to return to the ground and reset in general ties into Survival. In general, weighty characters come with good survival due to Crouch Canceling, but often lack in ability to return to the ground safely or DI out of combos as easily. Characters with good survival include Bowser (he's easy to combo, but can eat many attacks for breakfast, making him tricky to actually "kill") and Jigglypuff (for the exact opposite reason: she's incredibly hard to combo/hit in general, making landing strings or finishers a pain in the ***))
Recovery and Survival go hand-in-hand when it comes to Durability, and lacking in either aspect can really hurt a character unless they really have an extreme in one area, such as recovery options.

Defense is a lot more finicky than offense or mobility (as well as encompassing both) as lacking in one area of defense can get exploited and drag the character down quickly. Having acceptable defense in most areas, or at least really strong areas to mitigate lacking ones makes for a nice safety net for the character to continue fighting.

On the whole, most viable characters have strengths in at least 2 of these aspects, and at least a mediocre "stat" in the third. Polarizing characters tend to have an EXTREME stat one way and the other, with the third being mediocre. Bad characters have like 1 good stat, or just bad all around. In general, the viability of a character should be able to be found by averaging/adding up these factors.

 

[bubbaking]

Couldn't read all of it but that's a pretty nice analysis.

 

[Stunts]

The subject of "what makes a character viable?" has popped up on Smashmods, and I think it may be an interesting point of discussion when it comes to the direction P:M takes it's characters.

My thoughts on it:

Spoiler

Maybe if it were broken down as such:

Mobility: (The ability for a character to move about)

Spoiler

Ground: (Movement while grounded, includes dashes, WD, walking, certain specials, etc)
-Agility: (Close-Quarters mobility, IE WD'ing and just weaving in and out)

-Speed: (Long-range mobility, getting from A to B quickly to follow opponents or escape and recuperate)
If a character does well in both these aspects, they have overall good ground mobility.

Air: (Movement while airborne, includes Fall Speed*, Air Speed, Air Control, Jump(s), and the ability to transfer from air to ground or vice versa)
-Agility: (Again, the ability for a character to maneuver around their opponent. In this case in order to get higher, get back to the ground safely, or just keep at them from the air or such. Jumping falls in here, including SH height, Full hop, Jump squat, etc)

-Speed: (The ability to get from A to B quickly, weather it's horizontal or vertical in this case. Mainly useful for offstage or vertical movement whereas agility is more useful for horizontal movement along the stage)
*Fall speed is a little awkward as it can either really help a character or hinder them based on which aspect you look at.
If a character does well in both these aspects, they have overall good air mobility.

If a character does well in both categories, they have overall good mobility. A case can be made for characters with extremes in one category to have overall good mobility as well, as one aspect could easily make up for another, such as having enough ground speed to follow up on aerially launched foes, or air speed to not have to run.

Offense: (The character's ability to inflict damage on another & KO)

Spoiler

Strength: (The raw damage and/or power the character can apply per move, as well as the follow-up options allowed)
-Power: (The damage or outright KO-ability potential a character has on average. Slightly hard to pin down, but characters like Bowser would have great showings here with large quantities of Knockback and Damage being slung about, whereas a character like Sonic has overall weaker Power due to having the opposite problem (mobility more than makes up for this, as we'll see in a bit). Other examples include Sheik (good damage, low power) and GW (low damage, high power))

-Reliability: (The ability for a character to actually capitalize on options or force options themselves, building/keeping momentum. Examples include being able to force opponents into edge-guards (Marth), follow up on launchers (Charizard), turn a throw into a near-auto aerial hit (Sheik/Fox) as well as taking advantage of shield (Ike/Falco) )
If a character does well in both aspects, they have a Strong offense. As with most all categories, extremes can make up for shortcomings in others, such as Sonic making up for Power with Reliability in how he can constantly build up hits and take advantage of a foe's position, or how Ganon's sheer power demands respect although his "reliability" factor can be a guessing game at times.

Safety: (The ability of a character to either space efficiently or simply land attacks / recover from misses efficiently)
-Spacing: (A character's reach/disjoint as well as mobility factoring in how easily they can hit the foe while not getting hit themselves. The former can come from both disjointed attacks (Marth/Ike) and projectiles (nearly everybody) to simply control the space around and in front of them. The latter equally controls space, but is a tad more dynamic in that the character moves the space they control around with them, either supplementing or making up for disjoints)

-Risk: (The commitment a character needs to put in overall to perform their offense. Characters like Fox for example have very low risk (good) as nearly all his moves sans Fsmash, Side B and Up B are safe to toss about (ignoring his own momentum and other factors that can be used against him such as fall speed), whereas somebody like Ike takes a lot of Risk to perform his offense due to most all of his moves having punishable lag (ignoring his amazing spacing), or GW as due to the nature of his attacks, he has to commit to them even if he doesn't hit, forfeiting positioning at times. Priority helps in this aspect amazingly, as Marth for example can be baited into commitment, his large disjoints and damage leads to lower risk thanks to priority attacks)
Characters with good Spacing and Low risk have amazing Safety. As always, character can make up for one aspect with extremes with Good Spacing/High Risk (Ike, Link) or Low Spacing/Low Risk(Fox, he has low "real" range).

Overall, if a character has great strength and safety, they are bound to have an amazing offense. Unlike mobility where both aspects are sorta equal, Safety is a bigger issue at higher levels of play than Strength, but both are important aspects in the long run.

Defense: (The ability for a character to avoid offense of others, mitigate incoming damage, and eventually just survive)

Spoiler

Mitigation: (Avoidance, Spacing, Shield-utility and Misc. other tools used to take the least damage/KB possible)
-Avoidance: ("Don't get hit", characters with good avoidance can either just cover their hurtbox with hitboxes really well (Marth) to simply lessend the chance of an opponent getting to them, or simply have the mobility and/or pressure to make sure they're rarely in a position for them to get hit by a combo-starter or a finishing move)

-Shield: (A character's shield options, including Jump, Usmash, Grab, rolls (lol), etc, as well as how well they deal with shield pressure. Special shields can also go here if applicable, such as Reflectors, Absorbers (Earthbound), and traps/minions which can act as deterrents (Snake) or simply take hits for you (Waddles/Pikmin))
Both schools of "Nogethitsu" are great, but higher level play seems to favor Avoidance, at least in Melee. Characters with amazing OoS options however can be equally as effective as it becomes hard to effectively build an offense against them. Characters with good traits in both have good Mitigation vs offense.

Durability: (A character's ability to recover not only to the stage, but from combos, juggles, hits in general and to reset bad situations)
-Recovery: (Actually recovering from off-stage. A character's recovery generally has to cover a good amount of distance (horizontally and vertically) as well as be versatile/safe in order to get by edge-guard attempts once in range of the edge/stage. Recoveries have their own nuances per character, but just like everything else: high safety can make up for low distance (Falco's versatility within X range), and sheer range can make up for safety (try and gimp Peach when she can recover high). Weight, Fall Speed and Air Speed all factor in here as they determine how far you can recover from/get launched offstage)

-Survival: (The character's CC-ability/options, DI, ability to return to the ground and reset in general ties into Survival. In general, weighty characters come with good survival due to Crouch Canceling, but often lack in ability to return to the ground safely or DI out of combos as easily. Characters with good survival include Bowser (he's easy to combo, but can eat many attacks for breakfast, making him tricky to actually "kill") and Jigglypuff (for the exact opposite reason: she's incredibly hard to combo/hit in general, making landing strings or finishers a pain in the ***))
Recovery and Survival go hand-in-hand when it comes to Durability, and lacking in either aspect can really hurt a character unless they really have an extreme in one area, such as recovery options.

Defense is a lot more finicky than offense or mobility (as well as encompassing both) as lacking in one area of defense can get exploited and drag the character down quickly. Having acceptable defense in most areas, or at least really strong areas to mitigate lacking ones makes for a nice safety net for the character to continue fighting.

On the whole, most viable characters have strengths in at least 2 of these aspects, and at least a mediocre "stat" in the third. Polarizing characters tend to have an EXTREME stat one way and the other, with the third being mediocre. Bad characters have like 1 good stat, or just bad all around. In general, the viability of a character should be able to be found by averaging/adding up these factors.

pretty well said. I agree with all of this.

 

[Kink-Link5]

My thoughts on Joe's thoughts on metaconcepts

Spoiler

Offense and Defense are very archaic ways of examining a fighting game.

Who's to say a character with absolutely absurd mobility isn't defensive or offensive in how that mobility is used? How can it be a separate category when its application goes into both of your other concepts?

Like ICG said, Offense and Defense are nearly synonymous, and it isn't just with Jigglypuff. When you're dashing around a shielding opponent with Fox you are doing so not only to avoid something like a grab, but also to pressure the opponent safely to secure a hit. Or when you're wavedashing back while using Marth or Luigi's F-tilt, you do so both to avoid and cause damage.

It's just a really outdated way of looking at the meta concepts of a game, "She's shielding and is thus engaging in the defensive part of the game, he is approaching, engaging in offense." They're antiquated and don't really take into consideration the constant overlap of things that can be considered both offensive and defensive. When you're spacing Marth's fair, for example, s it safely applying damage, or mitigating damage from the opponent? What about Falco shooting lasers? Well clearly doing so from across the stage is defensive, but at what about from mid-way across? Just out of the enemy's range? Just barely inside it? Where does the line get drawn before something stops being offensive and starts being defensive?

The point of these meta approaches to examining the game is to take what are really very simple ideas, and word them in such a way that they can be expressed to others so that the concepts make sense and accurately describe what happens in-game.

My thoughts on metaconcepts

Spoiler

Generally, what I call encompassingly, a good neutral game leads to a likewise good character. What goes into that good neutral game is quite a few things but you touched on them a bit.

Mobility, in this case, strictly referring to a character's ability to quickly navigate within a close proximity of their opponent. Part of good mobility means a good dash dance, or a good wave dash, having a fast shff, having a good jump y-velocity to get around platforms/do stuff like Falcon's notorious SH, late DJ, FF, Fair, and generally anything involving quick, close range spacing options. You can call it what you want, I'm calling it mobility for the sake of defining a term and using it within that point of reference.

Moves that are safe on whiff, or block, or CC, or any combination. This usually means any proper combination of high damage output (Relates directly to shieldstun), low endlag on a move, or the ability to incorporate a character's moves with strong mobility options (Stuff like rising nairs to get away safely, among other things I can't really think of in particular).

Moves that can be done quickly and precisely in a good spacing position. For example, even with Charizard's shortcomings, his nair is a very good move overall, and one of the reasons why is that it has a hitbox that comes out quite far from away from his closest hurtbox (Much futher than Jigglypuff's bair in fact) and on frame 4, making that particular position always off-limits to the opponent unless they have something really good at dealing with nair, like a longer reaching move (Not many are longer than nair's startup though), or something that can deny charizard's position from meaning something (like Falco lasers).

Which is a nice segue into the next component

Space control. How much of the stage can the character effectively cover at once, at any given time and in any situation. Take Lucario. When he is dash dancing he is effectively covering:

The area of the stage he is dashing around (obviously)
The area he can cover with sh aerial (not much thankfullly)
The area dash attack can cover quickly (Aha, here's the big one)

So all that combination is effectively what area of the stage he controls at once. Overall I'd say his stage control is about half of FD's total length, and a little worst on stages like BF since his options above him aren't as fast/effective as those to his side.


Basically, and at it's simplest core, the best characters are almost always in the long run, the ones that can hit their opponent the most, without getting hit themselves. A part of it is damage output I guess, but that's something more of an aftereffect of their neutral game. Without the ability to get that hit, all the reward in the world is just a joke.

Isai's "Don't get hit" is a super simplified version of this, but that's the general idea.

In the long run it will always be the ones with the best neutral games that do well. After that, if characters have what could be described as having equally potent neutral games, then the damage output/gimpability/survivability/other stuff can come into play as differentiating features. But first and foremost a good character absolutely needs good tools for a strong and reasonable neutral game.

Interesting conversation about these meta concepts starts here: http://smashmods.com/forum/thread-5829-post-116470.html#pid116470

 

[JOE!]

Yo dawg....

Spoiler

Offense and Defense are very archaic ways of examining a fighting game.

Who's to say a character with absolutely absurd mobility isn't defensive or offensive in how that mobility is used? How can it be a separate category when its application goes into both of your other concepts?

That's the thing: each aspect is connected. Said character could easily supplement their offense/defense with mobility just as they could tie offense into defense and vice versa. Just because each part flows into another doesn't mean they aren't seperate.

Like ICG said, Offense and Defense are nearly synonymous, and it isn't just with Jigglypuff. When you're dashing around a shielding opponent with Fox you are doing so not only to avoid something like a grab, but also to pressure the opponent safely to secure a hit. Or when you're wavedashing back while using Marth or Luigi's F-tilt, you do so both to avoid and cause damage.

In order stated: agility/avoidance, risk/spacing, reliability/avoidance. Fox in this example is actually on the offense as he is the one actually attacking a shield, he's just safely applying pressure. The latter two are examples where the sane move has utility as both offense & defense, but what of characters where the option is really only good on retreat or advance?

It's just a really outdated way of looking at the meta concepts of a game, "She's shielding and is thus engaging in the defensive part of the game, he is approaching, engaging in offense." They're antiquated and don't really take into consideration the constant overlap of things that can be considered both offensive and defensive. When you're spacing Marth's fair, for example, s it safely applying damage, or mitigating damage from the opponent? What about Falco shooting lasers? Well clearly doing so from across the stage is defensive, but at what about from mid-way across? Just out of the enemy's range? Just barely inside it? Where does the line get drawn before something stops being offensive and starts being defensive?

The point of these meta approaches to examining the game is to take what are really very simple ideas, and word them in such a way that they can be expressed to others so that the concepts make sense and accurately describe what happens in-game.

You keep bringing up similar characters.. but anywho, this is when you get into specifics about the character. Is Fair better used defensively, or aggressively? Do falco's lasers show more use as a mitigator, or used to extend combos? If the former, than more often than not its defensive, if the latter its offensive. But then you have to look at the character as a whole beyond and with those moves included.

(Posted with a phone)

 

[cannedbread]

range power speed

bb it's all you need

 

[stingers]

When did this become the pokemon thread

 

[bubbaking]

Dude, that part's been over for a while now..... (-_-)

 

[Kink-Link5]

range power speed

bb it's all you need

"Range... Speed... Priority... Know and master all of your attacks!" -Ryu, 1999

 

[DMG]

I just wanna say that Chansey isn't very centralizing because she has no offensive presence and is setup food for quite a few Pokemon. Trick Taunt Encore and Sub all ruin her and she's more predictable than Blissey (both because she's forced to use healing a bit more with no leftovers, and because her offense is so lacking she can't run a coverage move).

On with P:M!

Ike Discuss

 

[Archangel]

I think What makes a character viable is alot less complex than people think.

It has to do with a characters design matched against all other characters in the roster. Everything from height, reach, speed, and the tools of that character will ultimately measure his worth in battle. Then there is the matter of the environment. The Stages, legal or banned, Neutral or counterpick also factor in to the general success of any given characters.

In the end it's a matter of pros and cons. If the pros outway the cons or at least break even then the character is viable. If the cons are even or outway the pros the character will end up nonviable. (See Kirby, Pichu, GnW in melee)

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think What makes a character viable is alot less complex than people think.

It has to do with a characters design matched against all other characters in the roster. Everything from height, reach, speed, and the tools of that character will ultimately measure his worth in battle. Then there is the matter of the environment. The Stages, legal or banned, Neutral or counterpick also factor in to the general success of any given characters.

In the end it's a matter of pros and cons. If the pros outway the cons or at least break even then the character is viable. If the cons are even or outway the pros the character will end up nonviable. (See Kirby, Pichu, GnW in melee)

Space control, mobility, hitbox coverage, and frame advantage are all really simple concepts.

Like I said, the point of coining these terms is to describe something really simple, but that lacks a current description. They're very basic ideas that most players already have ingrained, but simply lack the ability to describe.

Similarly, Smash has a good "gamefeel" but there is no real way to describe why. It feels good to play. You feel like you have control, it's fluid, and the game is just plain well-handled, but none of these say what about the game is good. My mentality and description of Smash's fun gamefeel is that it is very analog- you have a large degree of control over your character in a way opposed to digital controls. Instead of there being one walk speed, one run speed, a dedicated jump arc, etc., you're given full potentiometer mobility, with a hugely varied amount of small nuances that go into what happens.

These are all just meta concepts- beyond the game and already ingrained in the minds of players, with no words currently to describe them.

 

[JOE!]

I think What makes a character viable is alot less complex than people think.

It has to do with a characters design matched against all other characters in the roster. Everything from height, reach, speed, and the tools of that character will ultimately measure his worth in battle. Then there is the matter of the environment. The Stages, legal or banned, Neutral or counterpick also factor in to the general success of any given characters.

In the end it's a matter of pros and cons. If the pros outway the cons or at least break even then the character is viable. If the cons are even or outway the pros the character will end up nonviable. (See Kirby, Pichu, GnW in melee)

All these I went over in my analysis, I must categorized them

 

[iLink]

Character viability basically comes down to match-up spreads.

 

[JOE!]

Which comes from their traits vs another's

 

[DMG]

And their traits come from GOD

So really, we're judging how competent God is at making a fighting game

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

So I brought a suggestion box to Genesis 2011 as kind of a joke, but actually people used it! Had the box been there all three days, and had it been in a more strategic spot, it would have garnered a good deal more, cuz people like to give their opinions a lot. Anyway here they are:

 

[SpiderMad]

I would of drew a picture

 

[hotdogturtle]

We had a lot of kindergarteners at Genesis it seems >_>

 

[drsusredfish]

oh god cursive. I'm surprised i can still read that dead language.

 

[Stunts]

I hope the PMBR did not let those Genesis complaints cloud their judgement. Many of those seem bogus :/

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'd be glad to discuss further what I think on game design, character design, balance, character strengths and weakness, playing homo, wearing skirts, character viability, neutral games, what changes I feel characters could use (Hint: Not many at all, and mostly buffs across most of the cast), and my overall thoughts on Project M whenever I can meet up with players in-person. Hopefully that will be sometime in the next two weeks and before Christmas with Strong Bad.

Should be insightful since DK is a character I have almost hard data on.

Most characters I can see where there are faults in design, but DK is one of the few I haven't looked at much. I feel like he controls space decently what with the bair and the down B and the grab and the big, fast dash attack, but that coverage and mobility are very low. I have no idea how safe he is on block/whiff/CC, so that'll probably be something of discussion.

 

[JOE!]

Kink, you're in like ct aren't you?

 

[SpiderMad]

I hope the PMBR did not let those Genesis complaints cloud their judgement. Many of those seem bogus :/

The stuff from the last one came true I think

 

[`dazrin]

Hahaha

"Make names start from the newest on the bottom, and the oldest at the top"
"Make it so that characters should be able to be selected and deselected immediately so we can spam. This is super important."

So this is where these glorious features came from!