Project M Social Thread

[DrinkingFood]

Implying everyone doesn't theorycraft
like 99% of the posters in this thread don't play nearly at the top level, yet they beat up on the people who don't have tourney experience. Very few of anyone has tourney experience at the highest level, where metagame discussion actually counts, yet everyone feels dignified to talk about it so long as they've been to a lot of tournaments rather than placing high at a lot of tournaments. Like, I'm not harshing on them talking about it. Just stop misplacing your ability to talk about the game. For the mass majority of people, it's hardly from having been to a certain number of tournies, or a certain number of regional tournies, even. That small number of players playing at the top level... yes they craft accurate theories from experience. But for everyone else, it's mostly from watching others play at the highest level gameplay, something anyone can do. And anyone with a properly functioning brain can accurately analyze it... hell, you don't even need that, just look at ICG

tl;dr: stop attacking it because it's theory crafting and because call it that is an easy way out, start attacking it because it's bad logic, IFF that's the case.

 

[ELI-mination]

I'd also like to point out (since it seems lost on some people) that:

Placing high in P:M tournaments is not the same as placing high in melee tournaments

 

[joY]

Well yeah.

Placing high at P:M tournaments is more indicative of your true skill.

 

[GaretHax]

That's actually a false story. only a handful of his moves kill but they transition very well together.



Of all the fox things to call silly I'm not sure I consider Uthrow-Uair one of them. I actually am more angry when I get Uthrow or Dthrow-Knee'd by Falcon than I am with Uthrow U-air. I usually can DI-SDI out of it.

Fox's waveshine/multi-shine against Walls pissed me off way more.

Falco is just silly by nature....but one you get him off stage he's not so bad.

I'd say the key difference between Losing to Ike vs Losing to a spacie is this. Vs Ike it feels like you just lost to Ike as a character, vs Spacies it feels like you lost to a player. That's just...the general feel I'd say. I mean there is so much room for error with spacies technical skill it's kind of impossible to compare them with Ike. it's like comparing Football to Darts.

I agree with this actually, well said.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I dunno. Falco may press more buttons, but when I lose to one, I don't really feel like I was more "outskilled" than when I lose to an Ike player.

Either way, losing is losing.

 

[ELI-mination]

2 things

Ike isn't even as good as spacies. I would argue he's not even on the same level.
Having amazing tech skill with spacies isn't necessary to win with spacies

In fact, basic stuff like waveshining and shine OoS isn't really that difficult at all

 

[leelue]

Come to think of it... I wonder how many of us who post here regularly do well? I know JC and cmart are reasonably good, wavebuster is good, Eli is elike, im good, metroid sucks (just ask him), and... I must be missing a few more

Edit
To my knowledge reflex is good too.
Still must be missing some

Hm
Strongbad is the second best pm dk

 

[Oro?!]

Good is subjective. NY wouldn't get top 3 at a Chicago local. : P

 

[Hylian]

I only lose to dk >_> lol.

 

[leelue]

Ryan doesn't come out often, so yeah. But top 2 is fine too

 

[leafbarrett]

Even I managed to pull off a 0-death combo with Fox. Those instances are few and far between, though. I will grant you this much: the spacies are hard to truly use to their full potential, whereas I've won a match as Ike by spamming fsmash & fair the entire match.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nobody questions how easy Ike is, it's much harder to make technical errors with him than with fox. Although the two are related on the level of "Factoring in human error" human error plays a minute role at high level play and, with the exception of reaction time, which a universal error of humans that is impossible to work past and should never be ruled out(I would accuse many players of doing so when analyzing the spacies and their frame one cancelable move), human error is generally ruled out. The reasons are that human error are unpredictable (again, with the exception of reaction time). Ike may be easy but that doesn't mean Fox can't be played better. It just means playing fox better requires a lot more in terms of button presses. It also means fox requires more dedication. This still doesn't mean Ike is better, or even comparable. Regardless, the low quality of your opponents, who can be beaten by spamming fsmash and fair the entire match, completely rules out that anecdote's credibility. If you're going to convince anybody, or even if you're just trying to tell us why you're convinced, you're going to need to do a much better job than that, because there is next to no real reasoning behind what you've said.

 

[leafbarrett]

*sigh* Fine, I exaggerated a little, I did have to use other attacks. Still, those 2 moves are absurdly spammable in most circumstances.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nerf Marth. Spamming F-smash is just too good.


*Continues to nair*

 

[ELI-mination]

I might as well say I spam usmash with Fox or dair with Falco. If somebody is losing to spammed attacks, I wouldn't consider them worth discussing in terms of metagame.

I'm not like most smashers; I don't really value tech skill much. I don't really think it's representative of goodness. So there.

In a few weeks, NY may get the chance to play metroid. Get hype.

 

[Ishiey]

LOL no
I never feel like I lost to the player when I lose to Fox
Spacies are waaaaaaaay dumber than Ike and make much less sense

Ike is forgiving as a character. That's what you're feeling. Spacies aren't as forgiving. The character has a feel of "well I don't have to space this precisely I don't have to recover the same I can whiff the xyz attack on shield and not die to a CG or edge guard immediately I'm heavy etc".

Seconding both of these.

Especially when you consider that, idk, people have had 11 years of learning how to fight Fox/Falco and only 6 months of learning how to fight Ike. As DMG said, Ike is more forgiving than Fox/Falco, so he can be used at lower levels and still seem impressive. I'm pretty sure that regardless of the changes to Ike, in time people would figure out how to deal with him properly and he'd be considered much more balanced than Fox/Falco with their frame-1 hitboxes that can be JCd, ridiculous pressure games, and simple/flexible combos that come out of their pressure.


Wait, when is Metroid coming to NY? :D

 

[bubbaking]

He's probably referring to how I say "Nerf Ike!" everytime I do Fox/Falco silliness in-game, like uthrow-uair for example.

Yep, that, "Buff Wolf!" and "Buff Sheik!" but actually Eli, you may remember that I've always been saying that before anyone, including Ike and Lucario, got majorly changed (for better or for worse), we should have changed the spacees. I've also been ranting that Wolf is perfect and Sheik is fine and that everyone is only dissatisfied because they keep comparing them to two other chars who apparently have a higher calling.

 

[Jolteon]

I always place top 3.

But I play Ike, my achievements are invalid.

 

[bubbaking]

Saying Ike is better than Fox just because he's heavy and is allowed to hit shields carelessly is like saying Bison is better than Akuma (SSF II:T or SSF IV:AE, take your pick). The character has NO health and loses practically every trade and there is a much higher learning curve for Akuma. You still lose to the character when you get hit by all the mix-ups, overheads, and dive/slide kicks and then get Raging Demon'd just because you press a button (which is basically how Infiltration steamrolled everybody at Evo 2012).

Meanwhile, Bison gets to hit blocks for free, nonpunishable pressure and he's got a ton more life. Doesn't change the fact that Akuma is ALWAYS an entire tier above Bison.

 

[leafbarrett]

Saying Ike is better than Fox just because he's heavy and is allowed to hit shields carelessly is like saying Bison is better than Akuma (SSF II:T or SSF IV:AE, take your pick). The character has NO health and loses practically every trade and there is a much higher learning curve for Akuma. You still lose to the character when you get hit by all the mix-ups, overheads, and dive/slide kicks and then get Raging Demon'd just because you press a button (which is basically how Infiltration steamrolled everybody at Evo 2012).

Meanwhile, Bison gets to hit blocks for free, nonpunishable pressure and he's got a ton more life. Doesn't change the fact that Akuma is ALWAYS an entire tier above Bison.

So you're saying that Ike is more mindless to play as than Fox, basically? Because really, that's a problem too. (And I agree.)

 

[bubbaking]

Well, maybe, until you face off against a character who's simply better than Ike/Bison (let's call him Bike). Then, unless you're a great player who can think out of his mind, you're bound to lose. I'm more pointing out that the fact that Bike gets to take more punishment and gets to throw out attacks safely does not make him better than a character, such as Flaco/Akuma (let's call him Flakuma), with simply godly tools, even if that character has a bunch of "minor" trait disadvantages (like weight and recovery).

Come to think of it... I wonder how many of us who post here regularly do well? I know JC and cmart are reasonably good, wavebuster is good, Eli is elike, im good, metroid sucks (just ask him), and... I must be missing a few more

Edit
To my knowledge reflex is good too.
Still must be missing some

Hm
Strongbad is the second best pm dk

I got 3rd at that P:M tournament last weekend that you were supposed to come to.

 

[Sneak8288]

LOL Flakuma.. I like how that sounds

 

[DrinkingFood]

So you're saying that Ike is more mindless to play as than Fox, basically? Because really, that's a problem too. (And I agree.)

I agree with this. But this is not the same question as "Is Ike broken?" and likewise the solution is not "nerf this character." If PMBR knows this, then they'll compensate for all the nerfs they've given him. Hopefully with something to serve to break pressure since that's where he's really weak and they're clearly very gung ho about nerfing his strengths. Again, I don't care if they want to call it tweaks... They're still tweaks that harm him. That makes them nerfs as well...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sword sweetspot system seems to be specifically done to address "Ike is easy and does not care about how his moves are used because they are just as effective/ineffective no matter what."

 

[bubbaking]

I don't mind the sword sweetspot system. It makes sense, especially with a sword that long and most definitely with that much power behind a sweetspot.

 

[cannedbread]

Utaunt > usmash is a true combo.

how the **** do you do this

 

[joY]

Off-topic I know, but cannedbread, your avatar is slightly disturbing.

 

[cannedbread]

i wish i knew where it was from

 

[bubbaking]

Cannedbread, it's really easy. The utaunt has a pretty long hit-confirmation time. If you see that it hits, just usmash immediately. It's not practical, but it's full of swag and it works. It's probably the only true combo that I was able to get off anyone's taunts, save Bowser's biting taunt on grabbed opponents.

 

[cannedbread]

it only works on hit?

like i can only cancel it into usmash on hit?

 

[`dazrin]

I do not approve of that avatar.

Gross :< uygh

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not exactly sure. I tested it a couple months ago and the specifics of it are fuzzy, but I'm sure it's a true combo. You should whip out your Wii and try it out yourself.

 

[ELI-mination]

Tournament I'm going to this Saturday is banning the word "****"

Looks like I'll be DQ'd

 

[bubbaking]

Wait, are you serious?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

my avatar is best avatar


oh and yay a discussion about use of words like ****
go for it smash community
show your true colours
childish discussion are best discussions

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wait, are you serious?

I don't see it as any different than a venue banning curse words. If that's not the environment they want to be in, it is what it is.

 

[ELI-mination]

Show your true colors?!?!?
We have a racist over here

 

[drsusredfish]

so hide your color

 

[drsusredfish]

speaking of **** want some irony. this guy was a real super hero

his name is star fox and his power is the ability to seduce woman against their will aka ****. Our fine furry smash friend has roots in the **** game.

 

[cannedbread]

can't test, can't even play. my tv broke and my replacement doesn't have those color inputs so it doesn't work unless i get some converter thing.

daz why don't you like my new avatar