Project M Social Thread

[JCaesar]

We're buffing Project M.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

We're buffing Project M.

That's the spirit!

 

[Archangel]

We're buffing Project M.

I thought you were Buffering it?

 

[9Kplus1]

they're just assisting its inputs

 

[Rikana]

When's Marvel?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Because it is a nerf but they don't want to rile people up about nerfing Ike when they said 2.5 wouldn't nerf Ike.

Philosophy of the PMBR
"no it isn't because we said so"

I can hardly care how you word it when he's still getting worse with almost every change. Something can be both a nerf and a tweak. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. So sure, maybe you've convinced yourselveqs and now actually believe you're changing Ike because he was designed according to standard, or maybe you believed that from the start. Doesn't matter though, the changes are still nerfs. The general idea of something that is just tweak are changes that balance out with each others. Ike's do not. You may call them tweaks, PMBR, but they aren't just tweaks. They are also nerfs.

 

[iLink]

I can't believe this conversation has gone on for this long lol.

If you are changing something so it isn't as good as before, yes it is reworking it for the better, but it is still a nerf. With that being said, some other areas of the character might have been touched up to work better, so the character might not overall be nerfed, but just in a certain area.

I can understand them not directly wanting to use the word "nerf" because it has a more negative connotation then "tweak" or "rework", but it seems kind of silly to sugar-coat it for this long when something is obviously nerfed.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Honestly, we'd probably get a lot more information from the PMBR regularly about the design process and what was happening with the game in real time if so many posters didn't make it their own personal mission to constantly stir the **** on topics that were thought about and decided already, but constantly brought up from the dead again and again like a thoroughly beaten horse.

Truth is most of us really don't have any great ideas to contribute and the PMBR is right to humor but mostly ignore this group of very opinionated posters. Anyone would do the same in their shoes.

 

[cannedbread]

i don't even know how they put up with y'all

 

[trash?]

Theorycrafters are the worst people.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Easier idea to comprehend: a buff that completely negates any problem a character should have is negative character design, because while you're making a character BETTER, it's still a bad, imbalanced design. Good example is meta knight in brawl, who had enough recovery options to work with that his lightness was rendered pointless.

Anyway: stop making sensationalist assumptions off of characters you barely know the changes to. There's something absolutely laughable about someone who knows what they're doing telling you how they're trying to rebalance it, and then just hearing you say "gee that's a funny way to say NERF, NERRRRRRRF" while kicking and screaming.

Lightness is not and never will be, a weakness.

Marth's fair taking a relatively long time to hit below him is a weakness. Metaknight's low air mobility is something of a weakness, though not a very prominent one.

 

[iLink]

Lightness is not and never will be, a weakness.

Tell that to Mewtwo

 

[DMG]

Because it is a nerf but they don't want to rile people up about nerfing Ike when they said 2.5 wouldn't nerf Ike.

Well that's not entirely true. The things that we could easily say are nerfs, are the changes to QD (maybe to Eruption as well, but that's more minor imo) and Aether being a more manageable recovery move (which will also be fairer with ledge teching being fixed) It IS a tweak in the right direction, and it's a nerf to Ike. It is both. Now, did they have to do the changes for balance? Not really. The only change they "might" have felt pressure on is how far QD went without charging. The other changes make sense from a gameplay and design perspective: nobody wants to see a ton of QD walljumps from Ike and the added delay to make him feel like Shine also makes sense.

They are nerfs, but with actual game design and "feel" in mind, not simply doing it for balance sake. They made the right decision on tweaking those specific aspects of the character. Now, if the tipper system goes too far and he's got Roy syndrome, then maybe people can panic.

if a character's move(s) get slower, weaker, or smaller that is definitely a nerf of those moves. you 'tweaked' them to be worse, a la nerfed moves on character.

that doesnt mean i care to much because i still believe devs are doing their jobs to a very high degree, so im not afraid of any rediculous changes

It's a nerf, but the direction the game goes because of the nerf is what you care about. Take the QD distance change: it's a nerf but it's better for gameplay because now the move hopefully won't be as mindless and easy to cover options with. Whether it was necessary or not misses the point that the change leads to smoother and more "ideal" gameplay. If you saw Ike in Brawl, and were told that he could endlessly walljump out of Side B in this game, you'd ask "Why?". Even if you thought maybe it's balanced or even underpowered, you'd ask "Why?" because it sounds ridiculous. It sounds like something that wouldn't have been done or shouldn't have been done regardless of the impact. It's "off tangent", and these changes bring him back on tangent. Some of the changes to Ike, are covering those aspects that feel off. Regardless of buff or nerf status. BECAUSE once you address those issues, then you can balance and retool the character to an even greater level and with more precision instead of having to worry one day down the road about the balance implications of endless Side B walljump.

Philosophy of the PMBR
"no it isn't because we said so"

I can hardly care how you word it when he's still getting worse with almost every change. Something can be both a nerf and a tweak. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. So sure, maybe you've convinced yourselveqs and now actually believe you're changing Ike because he was designed according to standard, or maybe you believed that from the start. Doesn't matter though, the changes are still nerfs. The general idea of something that is just tweak are changes that balance out with each others. Ike's do not. You may call them tweaks, PMBR, but they aren't just tweaks. They are also nerfs.

Well for now, be cool with the nerfs because he's getting to a better place design wise with them (or will be once the kinks are figured out. Like the tipper system, if it's too Royish then it will be bad but tweaked well it's great). Once his design is settled down, the process of really hankering down and buffing or nerfing him will take place. If you just left those aspects alone and tried to buff or nerf other things, it would be much harder to keep him from being polarized in one direction or the other. Like say the nerfs to his recovery. This makes it easier for the broader cast to deal with it, not just the specific Marth Shiek etc. Because of this however, it's easier to buff his close combat abilities. Because it's hard to balance a character with tons of flexibility and power and reach and decent recovery and CG/TC game, who's offset by crappy (sorta, I think it's underrated) neutral game/close combat or bad combo breakers/OOS gameplay. It's hard to balance endless walljumps and longer range QD and xyz tangent. Screw getting buffs he would likely get outright nerfs not even tweaks like outright less damage less power no tipper system, no wall jumping no QD attack in the air etc.

He has design choices that don't fit very well into the game. Regardless of power. And I'm proud that the PMBR isn't ignoring them to save face or try and say no we got it right the first time. Once they are addressed, the actual process of buff nerf etc will take place.

i don't even know how they put up with y'all

Copious amounts of Don't Give a ****

 

[Jolteon]

I don't know why all of the Ike changes are being called nerfs. For example, from experimenting, I think Ike's new nair is an improvement to his previous nair, his low % combo game is already really good so losing nair for that isn't much of a big deal. The cool thing about his new nair is that it significantly improves ledgehop nair as an edgeguard option. Ike's pretty limited when it comes to edgeguarding people from below who are adept at sweetspotting and ledge teching, and ledgehop nair is one of his best tools for that purpose, so overall I think that change improves Ike as a character.

Also, Ike's jumpsquat QD change isn't really a nerf, it makes the execution more precise but doesn't change how the move works (from what I could tell at least). I think it's pointless as a change but it's easy to adapt to after playing for a little bit.

Like, I understand that people are arguing that technically things like a shortened recovery and shortened QD are nerfs by nature, but from what I can tell they are called "tweaks" rather than "nerfs" as a result of the PMBR's approach to the game; which is to alter the game as a whole rather than focus on making good characters worse. That's just how I feel about it, though.

 

[Warhawk]

Tell that to Mewtwo

Mewtwo's light weight wouldn't be so bad for him if he weren't so big in addition to being light.

 

[leelue]

Mewtwo isn't light he's floaty

 

[DMG]

^^^

Float Float

Although Mewtwo is on the lower half of weight, like below Marth. So it's sorta true.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Mewtwo's awful moves are of much more concern for the character.

Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Ganon, Bowser, Peach, Olimar, Diddy, Metaknight, DeDeDe, Wario, Snake, BrawlLink, BrawlFalcon, BrawlJigglypuff, BrawlGanon, BrawlBowser

There's no correlation between weight and character capability at all. Let alone enough correlation to even pretend there is causation.

 

[bubbaking]

Samus is light guys. She's definitely not heavier than Ganon. Oh, and I'm on board with JCaesar. Buff the heck out of Project M.

And ftr, all of you are crazy. Pichu is definitely heavier than Mewtwo. Don't you see how fast he falls?!?

 

[Shadow Huan]

iirc mewtwo's as floaty as peach and around the same weight, which considering he's bigger than Ganondorf is a pretty ****ing big problem.

 

[bubbaking]

But his bones are hollow. I kid you not.

#ReadtheTrophyInformation

Edit: Oh, I'm wrong. "Since Mewtwo spends much of its time floating, it flies far when struck."

 

[leafbarrett]

Upgrade (buff): Making a character objectively better in some fashion.
Downgrade (nerf): Making a character objectively weaker in some fashion.
Sidegrade (tweak): Altering a character without making the character objectively any better or worse overall.
Just so we're clear.
MOST of what the PMBR does is tweaking. What they did to Ike is a nerf. Buffs and nerfs can both be good or bad depending on the context and how it affects the game design. The changes to Ike would be a positive nerf, for example.

I say objectively because "in a vacuum" doesn't sound right.

 

[bubbaking]

And Leaf has GOT IT!

 

[leafbarrett]

And Leaf has GOT IT!

I'm studying to be a game designer. I gotta know these things.

 

[bubbaking]

>Studying to be a game designer.

>Doesn't want to apply for PMBR.

Hmmmmm.....

 

[leafbarrett]

>Studying to be a game designer.

>Doesn't want to apply for PMBR.

Hmmmmm.....

It's not that I don't want to, it's just that I don't have the skill or the competitive knowledge needed.

 

[bubbaking]

Excuses, excuses....

Lolz, I'm jk'ing.

 

[GaretHax]

Upgrade (buff): Making a character objectively better in some fashion.
Downgrade (nerf): Making a character objectively weaker in some fashion.
Sidegrade (tweak): Altering a character without making the character objectively any better or worse overall.
Just so we're clear.
MOST of what the PMBR does is tweaking. What they did to Ike is a nerf. Buffs and nerfs can both be good or bad depending on the context and how it affects the game design. The changes to Ike would be a positive nerf, for example.

I say objectively because "in a vacuum" doesn't sound right.

Good and bad are subjective assumptions to begin with. Without extensive experience one cannot have an accurate opinion. Perhaps Ike's new Nair might make some insane new stuff possible, maybe the new eruption will combo into uair at mid %s. Maybe a ton off stuff that nobody has tried or thought of as of yet has been opened up by a minute change we aren't pointlessly argueing semantics over. Who knows, however I'm inclined to trust the people with hands on experience.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't see why the new Eruption should combo into anything that the old one didn't. I thought it only received a hitbox size adjustment.

/JustSayin'...

And my original argument still stands.

Couldn't we at least have waited for 2.5 mechanics to be put into effect before deciding which 'OP' chars were actually OP?

 

[ELI-mination]

You don't "decide which characters are OP"

 

[bubbaking]

It sure sounds like people do when they scream "Nerf Ike!"

And I believe the correct phrase is...

 

[ELI-mination]

It sure sounds like people do when they scream "Nerf Ike!"

And I believe the correct phrase is...

That picture is gahlike

 

[bubbaking]

utaunt and dtaunt have hitboxes. dtaunt sends lowww

taunt combos are silly i don't know if they actually work but i doubt it

It wouldn't surprise me if those taunt combos (the most of them, anyway) are on WiFi.

Utaunt > usmash is a true combo.

Characters aren't single moves. (Or they shouldn't be.)

 

[Oro?!]

Fox can kill you using any single move of his repeatedly. True story.

 

[JOE!]

Damn, all I was arguing that the changes to Ike were nerfs, not tweaks... not the global impact of em.

But yeah, what leaf said is spot on, it's just that it's near impossible to gauge what the changes do in the long term and across the 290373948723 matchups, so looking at the situation where we can: it's a "nerf" for Ike, but a Buff for P:M.

 

[ELI-mination]

He's probably referring to how I say "Nerf Ike!" everytime I do Fox/Falco silliness in-game, like uthrow-uair for example.

 

[Archangel]

Fox can kill you using any single move of his repeatedly. True story.

That's actually a false story. only a handful of his moves kill but they transition very well together.

He's probably referring to how I say "Nerf Ike!" everytime I do Fox/Falco silliness in-game, like uthrow-uair for example.

Of all the fox things to call silly I'm not sure I consider Uthrow-Uair one of them. I actually am more angry when I get Uthrow or Dthrow-Knee'd by Falcon than I am with Uthrow U-air. I usually can DI-SDI out of it.

Fox's waveshine/multi-shine against Walls pissed me off way more.

Falco is just silly by nature....but one you get him off stage he's not so bad.

I'd say the key difference between Losing to Ike vs Losing to a spacie is this. Vs Ike it feels like you just lost to Ike as a character, vs Spacies it feels like you lost to a player. That's just...the general feel I'd say. I mean there is so much room for error with spacies technical skill it's kind of impossible to compare them with Ike. it's like comparing Football to Darts.

 

[ELI-mination]

LOL no
I never feel like I lost to the player when I lose to Fox
Spacies are waaaaaaaay dumber than Ike and make much less sense

 

[Archangel]

I guess it depends on each person. I typically can't lost to a fox/falco unless someone good is playing them.

2.1 Ike I feel like I could almost lose to or be beat by people who aren't close to my level skill-wise and someone equal or past my skill level who also use Ike would be particularly ****ty to play against. It's not luck that Ike won more than half of all recorded PM tournaments in 2.1.

 

[DMG]

Ike is forgiving as a character. That's what you're feeling. Spacies aren't as forgiving. The character has a feel of "well I don't have to space this precisely I don't have to recover the same I can whiff the xyz attack on shield and not die to a CG or edge guard immediately I'm heavy etc".