Project M Social Thread

[stingers]

minimum is 6 frames.
lag is really annoying, but you CAN get used to it (provided the connection isnt too terrible). and when you do its not too different from offline.

the only annoyances are:
dropped inputs
and visual lag (stuttering)

dropped inputs is heavily mitigated by buffer, but for some inane reason most people I talk to refuse to put buffer on when playing online. I don't understand why, as I'm 99.99% sure the entire reason that we even had 10 frames of buffer in brawl was due to online play (and Nintendo understanding how buffer helps lessen the damages caused by their horrible online infrastructure). The problem there is that people try and brute force online to fit into their preconceptions of how the game should be played (ie. offline rules), and refuse to change even when its beneficial. which is sad =[ but nothing I can do about it other than spread the gospel of online buffer.

 

[NeoZ]

Hey Guys

Later today the UK will be Streaming v2.5 and getting a grip with Ivysaur

The fest will include Myself, Fuzzyness, Jolteon and Alpha Dash
And of course I will be demonstrating how Snake is Top Tier

The Stream will be on www.twitch.tv/Fuzzyness @ 8pm (it's 4:43pm here right now, so for those of you with different time zones, in about 3 hours)

Will re-post again closer to the time :D

Is this still happening?

minimum is 6 frames.
lag is really annoying, but you CAN get used to it (provided the connection isnt too terrible). and when you do its not too different from offline.

To me that is already too much, things that require visual cues would be impossible, not to mention not being able to react to stuff.

 

[victra♥]

hey steve wanna try online sometime looool

 

[drsusredfish]

i'f you really wana play i'll play you

 

[Stevo]

hey steve wanna try online sometime looool

hahaha yeah we should just to see how it is. I'm kinda curious

 

[stingers]

neoz, please listen to what I say with an open mind.
you're wrong.
human reaction time is about 12-15 frames (on average).
even peak human reaction times sizzle out around 8-9 frames.
so a 6 frame delay wouldn't actually influence your reaction abilities. the problem is, lag is often more then that, which can heavily affect your reaction abilities. but with a good connection, at the minimum? you'll barely notice.

 

[Stevo]

could be the difference between powershielding a laser or not though
and with muscle memory you don't always have to completely "react" to things.

I'll comment more when I've actually tried it though

 

[stingers]

the thing is, the human body has a built in ability to deal with lag, as long as its static. if you play on a tv with a 6 frame delay long enough, you won't even notice the 6 frame delay is there (until you screw something up and need something to blame). The major problem lies in the fact that the degree of lag on online brawl can often be variable, which will screw you up hard as your brain is trying to get used to rapidly varying latencies.

so in your powershield example, if the lag stayed static with no visual stuttering, it wouldn't actually be that hard to do, but only once you get used to the lag (if its your first match of wifi of the day for example, your brain still needs to warm up to adjust to lag). but when the lag filckers between 6-16 frames at any given moment (because Brawl sucks), things get a lot harder to do and we curse and scream and generally make any john we possibly can.

tldr: wifi sucks, but its playable, just don't take it seriously (as in get personally invested into the results of the match) and it's a VERY valuable learning tool (provided you don't have anyone in your general area to play with already)

 

[Stevo]

oh, I forgot that you lose out on a couple fixes though. I remember in the demo 1 days I couldn't stand things like Wavedash out of shield and the like. So I probably will hate it regardless lol

 

[Avalancer]

Is it possible to fix luigi losing his (wavedash) speed after he does an attack? One of his best approaches is WDing forward, then WDing backward and doing an f-tilt while sliding back. This also removes the reverse f-tilt edgehog (getting on the edge by turning around with a reverse f-tilt)

 

[victra♥]

ok i'll definitely hop onto online sometime tonight to try it out.

 

[trash?]

Professor Pro, isn't fuzzy's stream supposed to be on by now?

 

[stingers]

oh, I forgot that you lose out on a couple fixes though. I remember in the demo 1 days I couldn't stand things like Wavedash out of shield and the like. So I probably will hate it regardless lol

well, you've already decided that you hate it, so yes, I don't think there's any chance of that changing.
if you went in with no preconceptions, and an open mind, things could've worked out differently.

for anyone without a reliable practice partner who still wants to play/get better, the most important thing to remember is humility. you will lose because of lag, it will screw up your inputs, and there's nothing you can do about it (except put buffer on but nobody does that so whatever =[). whats important is that even through the losses and failed executions, your successes and failures alike can still teach you new things about the game that you can use come tourney time. practice is practice, even in imperfect environments. it worked for goku =p

 

[ELI-mination]

The only flaw there is the smash community isn't exactly filled with metroids

 

[victra♥]

i didn't realize this metroid guy was the melee dude who uploaded all those OG melee combo videos from the hub onto youtube years ago.

that is so tight

 

[Stevo]

oh really? that's awesome! I didn't realize that either.

 

[abcool]

Since you guys are making small aesthetic changes. Are you going to give Falco back his landing animation?! I mean like he just doesn't look right when he wavedashes in P:M. In Melee he has this cool landing style similar to Mario and Luigi. It just looks cool to look at especially in Melee when Dr pp wavedashes around after killing his opponent. In P:M it just looks meh.. Nothing to serious just some touch ups on the character if the animators have time on their hands.

 

[metroid1117]

With regards to the Wi-fi conversation, I highly recommend it for people who don't have anyone to play. As someone who didn't have anyone to play against when vBrawl came out (all my friends stuck to Melee), I played pretty much only Wi-fi except for tournaments. Wi-fi helped my game a lot because the lag forced me to think hard about what my opponent will do next, what move I should throw out, and when I should start to DI. It's certainly harder to play PM through the lag, but if you approach it with an open mind and don't take it too seriously, like what Stingers said, it really is beneficial for learning some of the things you can't learn by fighting CPUs.

Also, I'm surprised that people remember my channel for those ancient videos lol, that was such a long time ago.

 

[victra♥]

youre a legend dude

 

[NeoZ]

neoz, please listen to what I say with an open mind.
you're wrong.
human reaction time is about 12-15 frames (on average).
even peak human reaction times sizzle out around 8-9 frames.
so a 6 frame delay wouldn't actually influence your reaction abilities. the problem is, lag is often more then that, which can heavily affect your reaction abilities. but with a good connection, at the minimum? you'll barely notice.

Sorry, but no.
What would happen is that you would react to something, but what you did in response wouldn't happen until 6 frames later, which will probably be already too late.
In other words, your ability to react remains the same, but the usefulness of those reactions is diminished a lot.

Let's say something happens that on regular conditions would hit you in 15-20 frames, under 6 frames of delay you would see it, react accordingly and still get hit.

And about "getting used" to laggy TVs, the same thing applies, you're reacting to stuff that happened before it appeared on the screen, no amount of getting used to it would make you able to react as if there was less/no lag.

 

[cannedbread]

yeah i watch kaze no kizzu like every week hehe

 

[victra♥]

who can forget the legendary match that is

Isai (Falcon) vs. Ken (Marth) Match 4

 

[Stevo]

I think I still have that video saved somewhere

 

[Jonny Westside]

Yeahhhh.....who else didn't know about this?

In case the GIF dies, here's the direct link. Click Here

 

[Onomanic]

Yeahhhh.....who else didn't know about this?

Good old Z-axis.

 

[stingers]

omg **** zelda.

 

[NeoZ]

Fuzzyness' stream started, they're playing 2.5: http://www.twitch.tv/Fuzzyness

 

[Jonny Westside]

Good old Z-axis.

Z-axis? D:

I'm afraid I don't know much about Zelda lol

 

[Giygacoal]

Good old Z-axis.

Wait... does Smash Bros. actually have a defined Z-axis?

 

[Stevo]

That's something from Brawl. DDD side step was a good example.

 

[cannedbread]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=079p47Y42Og&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[ph00tbag]

Z-axis stuff happened in Melee, too. It made Samus and Zelda's spotdodges really good.

 

[Magus420]

Z-axis.

 

[Strong Badam]

No Magus, it's a Brawl thing.

 

[Kati]

hmm, and here I always thought raptor boost and Ganon's equivalent were intentionally designed to bypass projectiles.

 

[Stevo]

No Magus, it's a Brawl thing.

lol

So I guess naturally the next question is was it intentional for zelda's side-b to shift in the z-axis? and are there other instances of this?

 

[cannedbread]

doesn't seem intentional but it doesn't seem absolutely gamechangingly amazing either

it goes in the gimmick bucket

 

[Professor Pro]

Sorry guys for the delay blame Fuzzyness

But we have the UK v2.5 with Ivy Stream up and running now including
Myself, Fuzzyness, Jolteon and Alpha Dash

Of course, as usual I will be presenting Snake's Top Tierness

So come, watch and show your support www.twitch.tv/Fuzzyness

 

[DMG]

I could have sworn Melee had Z Axis stuff. Mewtwo spotdodge for example.

 

[ELI-mination]

Professor Pro's top tierness*