Project M Social Thread

[Kink-Link5]

I can give you any Charizard frame data you need.

Nair is super stupid and is only bad because it happens to be attached to a character like Charizard.

Hits on frame 4 with a massive disjoint, then wraps back around to make it safe on whiff, auto-cancels on a SH (If only Fair were so lucky) with that wraparound hitbox coming back around and hitting, combos into any one of his followups, including itself, which it can do for two or three repeated hits, as well as combos into an lolfootstool for what that's worth. Kills at 120%, deals a decent base damage alongside its multiple followups.

And they're making it even better in 2.5, with a nicer initial hitbox placement that can scoop up even crouching opponents when RAR'd, with the fastest startup for any move of anywhere close to comparable range and an extremely low cool down (Less than Puff's bair from when the move wraps back around) that makes is absurdly safe on whiff. It's not nearly as good on block if the initial hit is blocked, but it hits so far away there really isn't much that can be done to get in on him quickly (There are still things, mind)

I can give you his other moves but they are not nearly as "what the ****" as all of nair's stuff.

I call him Nairzard for a reason.

Sometimes Nair Jordan

 

[stingers]

wait, wait. why are they changing initial hitbox on nair? its literally perfect. where are they putting it?

and @ everything else, yes, charizards nair is amazing and by far his best move and the entire reason why I play him. so I hope this change really is for the better...

 

[iLink]

I was going to do charizard's hitboxes and frame data but I had a gut feeling that an update was on the horizon so I put it off. Might do it once 2.5 is out.

EDIT: I think the change to nair is that it hits lower on startup. That way you can sort of scoop up people behind you that are short. At least I think that's what I heard and might not be true.

 

[UltiMario]

I can give you his other moves but they are not nearly as "what the ****" as all of nair's stuff.

There's this move called Upsmash.

 

[stingers]

but it still starts up behind him right? I thought it already hit fairly low. at least it hits low enough to where I never seem to miss standing characters. but my training partner mainly plays marth and ganon so I've got that tall character bias that could be messing things up. I'm interested to see where they're going with this.

@ulti, I think you mean dsmash? his Usmash is pretty subpar, does its job well and its main benefit is being able to approach with it fairly decently, but nothing outstanding. his dsmash is a lot more effective I'd say...combo move, kill move, long range, fast startup, what more could you want

 

[Kink-Link5]

wait, wait. why are they changing initial hitbox on nair? its literally perfect. where are they putting it?

and @ everything else, yes, charizards nair is amazing and by far his best move and the entire reason why I play him. so I hope this change really is for the better...

The change is pretty close to what I went over on Smashmods as a suggestion, so this is pretty accurate-

It is changing from

This:

to something close to this:

Oops wrong picture


This:

All vids and streams I've seen seem to show it hitting like that anyway.

 

[stingers]

oh, huh. so its acting as a pseudo cc counter now? cool I guess, but zard doesn't really put himself into situations where he could get CCed very much anyway since he can't approach the same way chars like fox or pika can. but hey still a nice tool to have =]

 

[cannedbread]

so the hitbox comes out lower or faster or both?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Lower, from what I've seen. No confirmation, so do not take my word for it.

I would need stitches if it came out faster than frame 4.

 

[victra♥]

to something close to this:

Oops wrong picture

lol, this is amazing.

 

[BJN39]

That pic was from way earlier from an argument between Jcaesar and GHNeko... I think

Kink, what's the killing percent on each of zard's aerials? Just curious.

 

[Kink-Link5]

What benchmark do you want? I can do a "No DI Mario Center of FD" kind of thing, or compare the BKB, KBG, angle, and damage to other moves as a reference point.

Or both, if you really need me to.

 

[BJN39]

How's about Mario, best DI, center of FD because good DI (to me) tells kill percent better.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'll see what I can do. Though that doesn't really tell the Kill percents best since most of his kills occur in the middle of the air near the top blast zone anyway.

I'll get back to you probably uh

Tomorrow. Sure.

 

[BJN39]

Okay thanks!

Edit: what are peoples current opinions of Ivysuar comparison wise?
Currently, for me she looks actually kinda bad (in the P:M sorta way where nobody is really bad) But such stuff is subject to change so, yeah *currently*

 

[DrinkingFood]

I actually kind of agree. She doesn't seem to have any really stand out qualities other than pretty good camping and decent spacing. The healing and status affects are nice opinions (I mean arbitraries) but those moves already have significant drawbacks in that they are difficult to land or generally situational. I'm seeing everything on Ivy as just having too much drawback/preparation to be effective. And to top it off, she's got rather low mobility.

 

[UltiMario]

@ulti, I think you mean dsmash? his Usmash is pretty subpar, does its job well and its main benefit is being able to approach with it fairly decently, but nothing outstanding. his dsmash is a lot more effective I'd say...combo move, kill move, long range, fast startup, what more could you want

No.

I ****ing mean USmash.

Choose a character without very excellent downward attacking options and take the Charizard to Warioware.

Get above the main platform at 20%+

Good luck ever getting back on the ****ing ground.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

... I need to get project M

 

[stingers]

No.

I ****ing mean USmash.

Choose a character without very excellent downward attacking options and take the Charizard to Warioware.

Get above the main platform at 20%+

Good luck ever getting back on the ****ing ground.

lol. just go to ledge.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm too busy timing people out and having a nair that takes up 2/3s of the stage on Wario Ware to notice U-smash exists.

 

[leelue]

Ivysaur?
I'll give you a hint

It rhymes with speed dong

And it's pretty good

 

[GP&B]

Holy **** kink, that repost of the NekoXJCz pic completely caught me off guard and I'm dying. I'm saving that post somewhere.

 

[9Kplus1]

Sexy

 

[kaizo13]

this how you play Zard Stingers, step it up

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/335829385?t=99m42s

 

[metroid1117]

I think Charizard's best move is DSmash, followed by jab. NAir is great, but against smart opponents, you'll get punished pretty hard for trying to platform camp with NAir. DSmash combos into itself (if you're under a platform, DSmash -> waveland -> DSmash is amazing) and sets up for a lot of hard-hitting combos like DSmash -> Heat Wave (even if this doesn't kill, it puts the opponent in a really bad situation) or DSmash -> weak UAir -> up+B.

Jab is ideal for setting up DSmash tech chases at 0%, covers a lot of area in front of Charizard, and dash-canceled jab (I use Attack stick, so dash -> crouch -> C-stick diagonally) is good for rushing down dash-dancers or for techchasing. At high %s, jab can also be followed up with jump -> Heat Wave, especially when used for edgeguarding; if you jab someone out of their up+B, they'll probably have used their double jump already and will most likely be DI'ing in to survive, so jump -> Heat Wave works fairly well.

USmash is certainly a great juggling move and a good option out-of-shield, but the fact that it's so DI-able makes it hard to combo off of. If I force my opponents to tech on a platform above me, I'd rather waveland into a DSmash instead.

 

[stingers]

i disagree with usmash being good OoS, the fact it has like no backwards hitbox at all (by that I mean hitbox behind zard) and most people being trained to not land in front of you due to shieldgrabs means you have little chance to punish with it. that'd be a great buff though because zard lacks a lot of OoS options.

 

[Kink-Link5]

this how you play Zard Stingers, step it up

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/335829385?t=99m42s

You play Zard by getting spiked four stocks in a row?

Seems about right.


I think my favourite part of Nair is that it has a consistent knockback through the entire animation. Whether you hit with the quick start up, or the fast cool-down wraparound, it will always knock right upward to combo like smooth cream.

Low Scoop nair hitting on frame 4* seems like a pretty good OoS option to me.

*+Jumpsquat

 

[victra♥]

this how you play Zard Stingers, step it up

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/335829385?t=99m42s

i looool'd

charizard jab is hilarious and so good

 

[UltiMario]

lol. just go to ledge.

If you say so man.

I'll be planning on winning and banning whatever group has Warioware every time.

 

[Life]

Drinkingfood is on "arbitrary" now? :D

 

[`dazrin]

If anyone cares to watch a poor quality Ivysaur VS Toon Link Bo3 + 1 SaltyRunback boring camp match that wasn't de-interlaced, then I have one uploaded for the public eyes. Recorded at 3am 3 weeks ago, so overall gameplay was very sloppy. Sorry about that! >_<"


... Yeah, I'll be sure not to record out of a potato ever again. Video quality in the future will be much better now that I'm investing into a black magic intensity pro shuttle ^_^"

 

[OmegaMuffin]

I think the boys in the PMBR should have some kind of friendly debate or something with the SD Remix guys. It could be used to help distinguish the difference between the two and it would show that you guys don't have some random beef or something.

Because chicken is healthier.

 

[`dazrin]

Many PMBR members are already members of the SDRBR as well (including myself.. even though I'm not very active in the SDRBR )

We're all homies :D

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Oh alright, cool

Wiping brawl off the face of the earth, one hack at a time.

 

[BJN39]

Oh alright, cool

Wiping brawl off the face of the earth, one hack at a time.

Hey, I actually like brawl...

At least it has custom stage obstacle course making.

Just wondering now, will custom stages ever be in P:M?

Also, did they ever rechange Peach bomber do you can wall climb again?

 

[CSDragon]

SD remix? What's that?

If anyone cares to watch a poor quality Ivysaur VS Toon Link Bo3 + 1 S

Is it just me or is Ivy's dair recovery spam too good?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is it just me or is Ivy's dair recovery spam too good?

It's just you. Only the first one has a substantial boost, and the hitbox isn't very large now, so it's not hard to punish her for its use.

 

[Xebenkeck]

IF anything Ivysaur(and olimar/ZSS for that matter) should be allowed to Up-B out of airdodges, so their tether only recoveries aren't inferior to characters who have both a tether and up-B.

I know it can be done, as in Demo 1.0 Lucas could down-B out of airdodge, I know that wasnt intentional, but proof the feature could be given to Ivysaur.

It just seems wrong that Ivy, ZSS and Oli are already handicapped by having a tether only recovery, but that tether is inferior to the other characters(link, tlink, lucas, samus) tethers who also can up-B.

 

[`dazrin]

Let's try to save the "this character's recovery is garbage/broken and should be changed" argument until we've all actually had a chance to try it for ourselves.

I don't want to discourage speculation, but please don't outright judge things prematurely.

 

[Stevo]

Ivysaurs Tether is really good though.

long range and quick snap to the ledge