Project M Social Thread

[victra♥]

changes aren't always to nerf or buff. Sometimes it's for the overall gameplay and feel.

Jigglypuff has lots of jumps, but they run out eventually. Ike only being able to walljump twice (if that is indeed confirmed eventually) means he has more than 1 to mix up his recovery, but also cannot abuse things like infinite stall etc.

I think Ike shouldn't have armor on his up-b because it is counter intuitive and not conducive to exciting edgeguards.

yeah that ike upb is hard gay

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why all the Ike nerfs?

Can you remove two of Jigglypuff's jumps? It would make there be a risk to her going off stage and only affects a small portion of her on-stage game. There's no reason you should be using more than 4 jumps on stage unless you're doing some Hungrybox stuff anyway.

Wall Jumps decay.

How much stalling are you doing with 7 wall jumps?

FFS this so much.
Ike rarely needs the 3rd wall jump for a recovery, and nobody ever uses those wall jumps for excessive stalling. If they tried, they wouldn't be very successful given the wall jump decay and 5 edge grab limit on aether. The only thing this really takes from Ike is the ability to do hella stylish things like low wall jump edge guards on FoD and DC which often DO require a third wall jump before touching the ground to recover. I see literally no reason or need for this nerf. If stalling was really a problem, you could just prevent wall jump height from restoring on ledge grab. If. He recovery was too good, then you'd want to edit aether, not QD. You may go "if it's not that important to him, then why are you complaining?" it's because I'm not just looking at what I is useful for him, I'm looking at how I like to play the character. All this is is an arbitrary limit that really serves no apparent purpose except to appeal to the demands for nerfs by the uninformed public.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The Jigglypuff comment more so tied into Pit's Glide limit, but I can see how it sort of applies to Ike too.

 

[Revven]

Ike already has a decay system for his wall jumps in demo 2.1. It just doesn't matter that much because most Ikes regrab the edge before the decay actually starts to matter.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Most people aren't dumb and let Ike infinatly wall jump either. MANY things disrupt it.

 

[Hylian]

I like Ikes moveset and mechanics, the only warranted nurf I could think of him getting would be to make him lighter.

 

[Stevo]

It's not even confirmed yet though

@Ike nerf

 

[DMG]

I like his moveset, barring some of the knockback. The weight thing might be good.

 

[stingers]

ike definitely needs something done to him, hes got a little bit too much of everything.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Except for his slow start up speed and end lag on moves outside of D-tilt.

Point being, crying fowl on Ike is analogous to saying Ike is not only broken as it stands, but more broken than Fox, Falco, Peach, and others.

 

[stingers]

meta knights lighter than average.
you get my point.
he's got a little bit too much of everything (in comparison to the rest of the cast).

 

[Kink-Link5]

What move does Ike have that is faster/safer than Peach's nair on whiff?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

U do know ike has far more range then peach (and the space animals) and b/c of the weird cutting his lag in half on shield he like peach, fox, falco is safe on shield

 

[Vkrm]

On shield. Then don't shield, dash dance grab, or hit him before his hitbox goes active. Should be simple considering he has like 11 minutes of jump squat and his ariels have a good bit of start up.

 

[metroid1117]

On shield. Then don't shield, dash dance grab, or hit him before his hitbox goes active. Should be simple considering he has like 11 minutes of jump squat and his ariels have a good bit of start up.

That's much easier said than done and Ike has more options than aerials when it comes to approaching. Hungrybox is probably the only person who makes this look as easy as you say.

On a general note (not directed towards Vkrm or anyone in particular), I really wish people would play against good Ikes before making comments about his brokenness or otherwise.

EDIT: For the record, I also think the reduced-hitlag-on-shield mechanic is silly and, given the range on Ike's aerials, unnecessary.

 

[leelue]

I just think that the property is silly and unwarranted

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

1st off vkrm i was just stating facts. But i feel what u stated is easier said then done

Some of his aerials have a good amount of start up, but b/c of rar he can just bair at you which is 7 frames. (Not slow), his nair is 12 frames which isn't fast but not slow ether plus both of these moves have only 9 frames of lag which isn't bad at all.
*

 

[ph00tbag]

I just think that the property is silly and unwarranted

If this is on the topic of Ike's walljump, I'm 100% in agreement here.

He doesn't actually need any more than one, and even that feels totally out of place in the context of a game that's supposed to feel like Melee.

 

[Kati]

At the very least, can the hitbox on the hip during f-smash be taken out?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Or you could stop getting hit by a move that takes 30 frames to come out at best. Unless you're offstage, then it's acceptable, but it certainly isn't the hip hitbox that's getting you there. Jesus christ. If you were going to complain about anything, that would be the worst possible thing.

Except for those people that actually think eruption is a good edgeguard (even before the ledgetech was fixed). I just lol every time. If I see an Ike charging eruption, I aim my body at his face so I can recover more easily*.
*unless your character dies easily off the top and said character can't recover high to avoid it in the first place

 

[DMG]

If this is on the topic of Ike's walljump, I'm 100% in agreement here.

He doesn't actually need any more than one, and even that feels totally out of place in the context of a game that's supposed to feel like Melee.

He was talking about Ike's sword hits on shield being safer because of the intentional shield stun "ratio" or multiplier or whatever you want to call it was tweaked to make him safer on shield. When you see people go for Fair -> Tilt, or spam tilts on shield, that's why lol. Pretty tight window for people to punish because of it, and given his range it's a bit iffy sometimes (another part of it is shield push back being greater. More stun and knocked further, close to the end of Ike's long range, makes it unnaturally hard to punish). Fixed shield pushback, tweak the ratio a bit, all would be well likely.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Let's just remove a spacing character's ability to space, that sounds like a good idea.
Why don't we just take away his sword, too? I bet he wouldn't be "OMG SO BORKEN" then.

Non-sarcastic version: He's supposed to have good spacing. That's the point of having a long *** sword. Shouldn't be shielding everything of Ike's anyways, there are better options.

 

[9Kplus1]

Like getting hit?

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's actually the solution to his jab. I could go into detail but I'd rather just keep you wondering, assuming you don't already know. So yes, kinda.

 

[trash?]

Wait, I thought his strength was his power.

...Or his speed.

Or his options.

Or his everything else

 

[DMG]

His jab you can CC and punish, but it's mostly when they go for the extended jab combo that you get the punish. Going for a CC punish on Jab 1 IF he goes for grab or stops the full jab combo there, is much harder. Sure it's still a slightly advantaged spot if you eat it, but it's not so massive that it's the 1 "easy" hole to exploit on Ike.

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's right, because Ike has other holes to exploit as well. I could run through them but I'm sure they're obvious by now. People just like to forget about them for the sake of complaining...

 

[Kati]

Or you could stop getting hit by a move that takes 30 frames to come out at best. Unless you're offstage, then it's acceptable, but it certainly isn't the hip hitbox that's getting you there. Jesus christ. If you were going to complain about anything, that would be the worst possible thing.

So being punished for rolling behind a character while they smash is acceptable? I don't have trouble with Ike, I have trouble with attributes that make a game grounded on polished gameplay feel like brawl-.

 

[SpiderMad]

That's right, because Ike has other holes to exploit as well. I could run through them but I'm sure they're obvious by now. People just like to forget about them for the sake of complaining...

I could care for another run through.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Lack of answers for most projectiles, lack of pressure relief of any kind, be it at at CQ (although he does have jab), on his shield, and while in combos, and a vulnerable recovery on stages without walls. Not to mention above-average start up on a significant portion of his attacks. That one is mostly covered by his great range though.

@Kati
Is rolling really the best thing you could come up with to deal with Ike's fsmash?
Why did you let him get it started at close enough range to hit you in the first place (granted you aren't offstage)?

 

[DMG]

As far as getting hit goes, it basically boils down to 2 things: CC into punish, or eating certain things on purpose to avoid even worse things. Like if you are a Spacie and he Uthrow CG's you, at a certain % range he can go immediately into Fsmash and it punishes all DI except DI far away from him (try it out on Fox for example. DI behind Ike after Uthrow at 50 ish. He still gets hit because Ike brings his sword back). So you always pick far away DI in this spot, even if it means he can still regrab you or punish with Fair, because that situation is better than eating the Fsmash at 50ish and basically being dead.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Analyzing a matchup on "As far as getting hit goes" is very weak and inconclusive. The spacies' strength didn't lie in the fact that there was no Ike that could convert a grab into a kill almost every time (there were marths for that) but in their ability made it extremely hard to get hit/grabbed in the first place.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think this audio clip needs to be in an Ike video. You know which one it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=e9NYYewCSxo#t=94s

 

[DMG]

I'm talking only about what you were mentioning. I was explaining answers people have to scenarios vs Ike, even if some of them are eating "the lesser of 2 evils". I wasn't talking about MU's lol, I was using Spacies as an example because that's a situation where the smartest option is to always DI away because you will avoid Fsmash there. Eating a Fair, spike, or regrab instead of Fsmash or possible death is smarter for the player to do and stuff like that can be applied to Ike to take the sting out of some things.

Another example? Always tech rolling away from Ike, again to avoid stuff like Fsmash. That's not being sarcastic either, that's a legit strategy even if it's predictable because it forces Ike to then follow up with more effort.

 

[Archangel]

I think this audio clip needs to be in an Ike video. You know which one it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=e9NYYewCSxo#t=94s

You...you just earned 10000000 cool points. **** was funny as ****!

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think this audio clip needs to be in an Ike video. You know which one it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=e9NYYewCSxo#t=94s

I'm going to start reverse fsmashing to punish high recoveries and say this everytime just for the lulz
probably not gonna work, but I can hope

 

[SpiderMad]

Loooooolll

 

[Kati]

Again, I didn't say that I have trouble with Ike. I'm not even referencing an experience where I was the one who rolled. I am fully satisfied with my wavedash ability and my main's forward roll is pretty awful, so I realize that limitations of rolls in the metagame.

Still, it is logical (even by the game's standards) that rolling behind a character swinging a sword forward should result in avoiding harm.

So are you going to call me out for making bad decisions and letting my hypothetical opponent hit me when I clearly had better options in these hypothetical matches or are you going to respond with something constructive?

 

[DrinkingFood]

The point of being critical in that manner is to determine whether or not you know that it's not unavoidable. Since you know this, what is the problem? A character that requires a little bit of backwards thinking to fight? Are you expecting the same tactic should work against every character? Or even every character with a sword?

Also note that rolling behind Ike during fsmash works just fine. Rolling inside of him, on the other hand, does not, and this would be the only reason you would get hit by his fsmash.

 

[MaxThunder]

recovers and lands behind ike... still gets hit... dies...

oh xD
nair would be way cooler. but up b works. is that when the hitbox comes out too? do you know?

you know what we really need? frame data x.x

totally... i'd help with that, but i don't have the attention span to actually go write down the data... i could probably help with gifs, though... as soon as i figure out how to make them loop...

and we do have what rude put up on smashmods...