Project M Social Thread

[DMG]

I hate to bring up Ike again, but I was tossing this around in my brain, and I wanted more opinions on it; note this isn't a suggestion, more of a question. Someone was discussing earlier that Ike should have more appreciable differences in his sword sweetspot and sourspots than just small angle and smaller knockback differences. Say we gave him something like marth- Powerful at the tip and weak up close (but scaled both scaled up as Ike tends to be stronger than marth). Would this be a buff, nerf, or neither? Athough it would allow him to combo better, Ike doesn't really NEED to combo better- that's covered by his early killing and ability to carry the opponent across the stage easily. But what he would lose out in that is the ability to easily kill opponents early with the sourspot of his sword, something he can do now. But if he gained the ability to combo to higher percents more easily, something now less possible because high knockback on a lot of his moves, would he need to kill quite so early?
Again, I'm not asking for a change to Ike, although I do wish there was a little more depth to Ike (I main him, and it doesn't seem like there's very far to go with him...).

The difference would be being able to combo or kill without regard to spacing, or asking Ike to space somewhere specific on the sword to kill/combo the same. The end outcome would be the same, the difference being he's required to be a bit more precise. I don't wanna give him the Roy dilemma though. The difference for Roy's knockbacks was too huge: weak hits were pathetic and hitting with strong hits sent people too far away for combos. His Fsmash at low % though on fast fallers jesus the angle that would send you was nasty.

Ike's general kit gives him a lot of room for comboing. Look at his throws and options out of Side B. Changing the general knockback on his attacks wouldn't change those. (Not a complaint either that's just pointing out that he's got a lot of natural room for combos or strings)


Edit: it didn't edit my first post I'm salty.

 

[Dingding123]

urethr!a

kno wat iek has
dat other combo ppl don has

15704% jab cmobo

take ot 3d hit
rewrok spratn kick into genetlmen knee

viola

is newbalnecd

 

[DMG]

pik doar win priz

u resheeve dingding speek!

 

[leelue]

Dammit I've come to like dingding

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Squirtle's Water Gun is a water type from the Pokemon game, yet... it doesn't do damage....
Lucario's double team is suppose to increase his atk. speed and yet, it's a counter in vBrawl.


There's a lot of things that would "make sense" if a person designed a character a certain way, but the fact of the matter is that Charizard's seismic toss was not designed to be a knockout move. Your argument holds no weight considering there are many anomalies within characters move that doesn't exist.

tl;dr; Just because a move was something from one game does not mean it has to be the same thing in another.

all true but the difference is zard's up throw was added into this game specifically b/c for some unknown reason the anime made it his signature ko move, so it makes sense when a move is specifically added and why/what it is added from it is his go to ko move that the move would still be a ko move. (also remember i said anime every time b/c its a crap move in the games)

the other moves you named were already in smash and sure double team was changed but as someone else pointed out it now deals with evasion like it does in game, squits water gun was a brawl thing and doesnt make sense (maybe thats what a splash from squit looks like), and rest idk doesnt make sense. but that doesnt mean the moves in this game shouldn't or can't make sense.

 

[GHNeko]

Dammit I've come to like dingding

welcome to the herd.

 

[ph00tbag]

Charizard's uthrow could be improved easily. Take out Seismic Toss and give him something different. Sure it looks cool, but you look at that throw compared to Mario, Marth, Ike, heck even DK's regular Uthrow might be better than this throw despite being 5 times worse than cargo Uthrow lol.

Or they could just improve dthrow. Y'know, the one that's actually shallow and one dimensional?

is alkadoof

My b.

 

[Silly Kyle]

is one of the best characters in Project M.

KthxDAI

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

 

[GHNeko]

wat?

nah.

she's got miles to go son.

 

[Omni]

Me and Nintendodude had a good training session yesterday. Lucario beats Ike, IMO, 60:40.

 

[Silly Kyle]

wat?

nah.

she's got miles to go son.

no way. she's seriously top 5

 

[GHNeko]

Me and Nintendodude had a good training session yesterday. Lucario beats Ike, IMO, 60:40.

please tell me you got videos.

no way. she's seriously top 5

fox, falco, shelda, ike, lucario disagree.

Spoiler

i'm just being argumentative for discussion purpose ie devil's advocate.

 

[Silly Kyle]

peach kinda poops on them, with the exception of ike. and zelda can be annoying.

one word - downsmash.

 

[GHNeko]

what's so different about dsmash now that makes it a move that ****s on other characters. :V

 

[Silly Kyle]

Downsmash with Peach in Project M is soooo broken. I think it might be more broken then what it was in Melee. She can ****ing hold a turnip while doing it now too, so yeah. I dont think you understand how broken it is considering a lot of people who play PM haven't played a high level Peach yet

 

[GHNeko]

Not seeing how holding a turnip during smash breaks the move so much that it makes her top 5.

Could you go into detail? Because as far as I'm concerned, the move is pretty much the same as melee, stat-wise.

 

[Silly Kyle]

Let's just look at it this way...
Peach is like 100x better than she was in Brawl.
Peach was one of the best characters in Melee.
Adding those strengths back to Peach + the good things from Brawl makes her an extremely good character in Project M.
Her main issue is that she is kinda hard to play in Project M and doesn't get as much exposure.
Either way, I've won the most tournaments in Arizona with Peach in Project M and can't wait to surprise OoS people <3

 

[Omni]

Peach does really, really well vs. Lucario. I don't think Silly Kyle is exaggerating that she's a top tier threat.

@GHNeko: Nah. We were going to, but then we just ended up not saving our matches. Boo on us, I kno rite. Maybe some other time.

Thoughts:

Lucario vs. Ike - 60:40
- Combos Ike very hard
- Combo into his force palm super at lower %'s off stage
- F-smash makes it really, really difficult for Ike to recover. He has to perfectly sweetspot his upb which isn't an easy feat.
- F-smash and aura-ball destroy Ike's bad horizantal recovery
- Double Team can be used to get out of a lot of Ike's telegraphed aerials/attacks. Makes it hard for Ike to pinpoint Lucario
- Up-throw to b-air kills Ike around 90%. If they DI properly, you can d-throw instead and still setup the b-air. Lucario's kill throw setups are godlike against mid-heavy fallers.

Those are just most of the pro's for Lucario. There are a few cons, but I do think Lucario has the upperhand, tho', a good Ike vs. Lucario definitely won't look one sided.

 

[Silly Kyle]

As for downsmashing with a turnip, think of this scenario:

Peach is approaching a Falco close to the ledge with a turnip in hand. She hits Falco's shield with a FC aerial to downsmash, piercing his shield, combos him for like 30-60% with just downsmash, then sends Falco flying offstage with the last hit, followed up by throwing a turnip immediately to stop his recovery and hitting him offstage even further, setting up for an easy ledge guard.

So broken and can work on lots of characters. Downsmash combos into itself, pierces shields, sets up for ledgeguards, additional combos, and can kill. It's like... what more could Peach ask for?

 

[MaxThunder]

a bit late but i just wanna point out that squirtle's water hurts people now... at least it does if you get pokemon trainer on wifi...

 

[DrinkingFood]

@kyle... A JCable QuickDraw?

Also omg leaks

 

[Revven]

She can ****ing hold a turnip while doing it now too, so yeah.

Not an intentional change, please don't get used to it, it's a bug and every character can do it while holding an item with any smash attack iirc.

 

[Omni]

So I think I'm going to main Lucario/Pit for the first year of this game. Awww yeeeeeee.

Pit feels so good. He reminds me of Mario. Very mobile, projectile, combos well, recovers well, anti-projectile reflector, good edgeguarding, etc. Seems like the kind of character that will have little to no bad match-ups, but we'll see.

 

[bubbaking]

Hitstun isn't an individual value in the game we can tweak on a move by move basis.

Y'know....I knew this, but for some reason, I thought throws would be different. My mistake....

Asking opinions about putting sweetspot on tip of Ike's sword.

I think it would be more logical to make Ike a better Roy and put the sweetspot close to his tilt. As I said earlier, Ike's a brawler. It would make sense for him to be more powerful up close. Put up your dukes, man!

Or they could just improve dthrow. Y'know, the one that's actually shallow and one dimensional?

What? Dthrow is probably Zard's best throw. The move's an auto-TC on platforms, and everywhere else Zard can just TC Marth-style.

 

[DMG]

So I think I'm going to main Lucario/Pit for the first year of this game. Awww yeeeeeee.

Pit feels so good. He reminds me of Mario. Very mobile, projectile, combos well, recovers well, anti-projectile reflector, good edgeguarding, etc. Seems like the kind of character that will have little to no bad match-ups, but we'll see.

Pit is very stage dependent and influenced imo. He needs room, he's awful on most smaller stages because people like Fox Falcon etc will rush him down too easily or certainly kill him very quick. I personally think he's very conflicted stage wise because the smaller it is, the less room and time he has to deal with those super "in your face" characters, but the larger a stage is makes killing for Pit exponentially harder. Besides a close to the edge gimp, actually killing with Pit is something I don't know how he's going to remedy. I mean, if you are on a larger stage, and your opponent is Ganondorf, stuff like that looks very good for Pit. But take a smaller or regular stage, and it just doesn't seem like he can handle it. Marth Shiek on BF or smaller, Falcon on basically any stage (I think Falcon is easily 6:4 vs Pit regardless of stage usually), Fox in general, etc. On bigger stages it just feels like a chore killing. It's either pray to god Usmash does something, or that you get them offstage mid % and arrow them to death lol.

 

[Omni]

Pit is very stage dependent and influenced imo. He needs room, he's awful on most smaller stages because people like Fox Falcon etc will rush him down too easily or certainly kill him very quick. I personally think he's very conflicted stage wise because the smaller it is, the less room and time he has to deal with those super "in your face" characters, but the larger a stage is makes killing for Pit exponentially harder. Besides a close to the edge gimp, actually killing with Pit is something I don't know how he's going to remedy. I mean, if you are on a larger stage, and your opponent is Ganondorf, stuff like that looks very good for Pit. But take a smaller or regular stage, and it just doesn't seem like he can handle it. Marth Shiek on BF or smaller, Falcon on basically any stage (I think Falcon is easily 6:4 vs Pit regardless of stage usually), Fox in general, etc. On bigger stages it just feels like a chore killing. It's either pray to god Usmash does something, or that you get them offstage mid % and arrow them to death lol.

Pit has a pretty legit killing combo at around 90% with his d-throw. If the opponent DI's into your d-throw, it's a free up+b kill. However, if your opponent DI's away, you can go into a f-air -> glide attack -> f-air. I think his best kill setups will be from d-throw, but he clearly has a great edgeguarding/gimp game for early kills. I wouldn't rely too much on Pit's up-smash for killing.

I think the conception is that Pit isn't a "brawler" and needs space to maneuver and camp, but he's actually really good at CQC. At low %'s, he can d-throw chaingrab to about 20-ish% and follow up with an off the stage f-air to setup a gimping opportunity.

I do see your points about his weaknesses, but I think he can work his way around it a Pit player becomes extremely good at just close range fighting. Don't worry. I'll make it work.

 

[bubbaking]

Ugh, Pit's fsmash and usmash can be CC'd and punished before the strong hit comes out. Usmash in particular is a problem because the first hit can be CC'd and then the rest of the hits simply don't connect. I've even dropped combos because of that crap.

Edit: To clarify on that last sentence, I think the first hit of Pit's usmash was SDI'd into the ground and then the rest of the hits simply didn't connect.

 

[Omni]

Yeah... I wouldn't rely on Pit's f-smash/up-smash for killing. F-smash is decent for catching air-dodges and side-steps. Up-smash is a decent poke for people on platforms.

D-smash is the go to smash for sure.

 

[`dazrin]

Ugh, Pit's fsmash and usmash can be CC'd and punished before the strong hit comes out. Usmash in particular is a problem because the first hit can be CC'd and then the rest of the hits simply don't connect. I've even dropped combos because of that crap.

Edit: To clarify on that last sentence, I think the first hit of Pit's usmash was SDI'd into the ground and then the rest of the hits simply didn't connect.

Yeah... I wouldn't rely on Pit's f-smash/up-smash for killing. F-smash is decent for catching air-dodges and side-steps. Up-smash is a decent poke for people on platforms.

D-smash is the go to smash for sure.

Haha, reminds me of the days when I mained Young Link in melee.

 

[GHNeko]

Reminds me of when Melee was a growing scene.

 

[iLink]

I agree that lucario beats ike. His dash dance coupled with his dash attack are just really good for amking ike throw out stuff.

 

[BJN39]

I think Zelda is good at amking people suicide of annoyance and boredom.

 

[cannedbread]

my brother got so frustrated with my zelda one day so he decided to try to time me out. he was marth. marth is hard for zelda. i need better people to play with.

 

[GP&B]

It's unfortunate that playing Zelda amks people bored.

 

[cannedbread]

i see what you did there

 

[ph00tbag]

What? Dthrow is probably Zard's best throw. The move's an auto-TC on platforms, and everywhere else Zard can just TC Marth-style.

It is Zard's best throw. I'd go so far as to say it is broken and centralizing to the character, once people learn to read knockdown responses on reaction. It's also one dimensional and shallow.

And if you aren't able to beat the techs on reaction, it's his worst throw, hands down, because it only occasionally achieves what it's meant to achieve, and often directly results in a 180 degree shift in momentum, a problem other throws never suffer from.

 

[cannedbread]

can link hookshot cancel in pm?

 

[Hylian]

can link hookshot cancel in pm?

There is more lag than there was in brawl, but you can ADC it from a full-hop and have no lag.

 

[metroid1117]

@GHNeko: Nah. We were going to, but then we just ended up not saving our matches. Boo on us, I kno rite. Maybe some other time.

Thoughts:

Lucario vs. Ike - 60:40
- Combos Ike very hard
- Combo into his force palm super at lower %'s off stage
- F-smash makes it really, really difficult for Ike to recover. He has to perfectly sweetspot his upb which isn't an easy feat.
- F-smash and aura-ball destroy Ike's bad horizantal recovery
- Double Team can be used to get out of a lot of Ike's telegraphed aerials/attacks. Makes it hard for Ike to pinpoint Lucario
- Up-throw to b-air kills Ike around 90%. If they DI properly, you can d-throw instead and still setup the b-air. Lucario's kill throw setups are godlike against mid-heavy fallers.

Those are just most of the pro's for Lucario. There are a few cons, but I do think Lucario has the upperhand, tho', a good Ike vs. Lucario definitely won't look one sided.

I agree with the points above except for the bolded one; Lucario's hitbox for FSmash doesn't go below the edge, whereas the sweetspot for Ike's Aether is so enormous that he shouldn't have too much trouble grabbing the edge from below it.

 

[iLink]

I use lucario's upb on stage to edgehog Ike.

More lucarios should do it in general.