Project M Social Thread

[Strong Badam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI53tdGjgyQ#t=18m08s

 

[OmegaMuffin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI53tdGjgyQ#t=18m08s

I felt that from over here.

 

[`dazrin]

DK Used Earthquake!

It's Super Effective!

 

[FireBall Stars]

Streaming some demo 2.1 gameplay.

http://twitch.tv/fireballstars

It was rainy today, so tell me if it's lagging

 

[`dazrin]

I really think that Sonic shouldn't have another generic spin move on his usmash. It's a running sonic joke that all he does is curl up into a ball and spin. He just has so many spin moves that it's become bland and distasteful. This is something that EVERYONE I play with in BC agrees with, and jokes about.

Why wasn't this build of sonic kept? IMO this looks WAY better than anything I've seen sonic do so far. If you gave sonic's new Fair, new Dsmash, and that AMAZING usmash, in this sonic build, that would be amazing. I know full well that there will be no character revisions soon, but this really stuck out at me as a "why didn't they do this?" kind of thing.

Also has sonic's uair always been that ridiculous for comboing? Or is it just the fact that sonic seems a bit floatier in this build that makes it seem so good?

And if the concern to why that Usmash was scrapped was because it looked like fox and falco's usmash, maybe something along the lines of this would be nice. The animation is a little weird in that game, and it can definitely be improved in PM. Hell, I'll even make it since I'm studying animation/3d modeling right now anyways.

 

[NeoZ]

That up smash, his current fair and down smash, are moves from Sonic Battle, they're Sonic Up Draft, Sonic Eagle and Sonic Flare, respectively, they don't need look at Sonic the Fighters for inspiration.

 

[`dazrin]

I'm just saying some people might get iffed because that Usmash looks "generic" because it's Fox and Falco's, so I suggested an alternative in it's place if people don't want the updraft.. I personally think it looks GREAT and it's super fitting towards sonic as a character. Not to mention, an amazing move.

BTW: Why would they give Lucas the flip kick on utilt and not have Sonic have it? Makes NO sense to me why they left that spin usmash in. Lol

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I just noticed that SSBPD says I'm a better player than Yeroc (If you don't believe me, look at the NC region). Based on this and me being a CS major, does that mean I can join the PMBR?

Spoiler

Note that I'm too busy with undergraduate research to have time to actually do any work on PM, otherwise I would have applied as a coder already.

 

[leelue]

He just has so many spin moves that it's become bland and distasteful.
This doesn't get brought up a lot, but if you decrease the spin moves by too much you may end up losing one of the two things that make sonic sonic.

"sonic's new Fair... amazing"
Booooo

God I hate the new fair

 

[`dazrin]

That's true, but you don't need a spin move on the Usmash as well. He already spins on his nair, sideb, downb, and dash attack. I think his Usmash could be more original.

Lots of people that I've talked to think so. I'll get them to post their opinions about it soon.

Also why do you hate the new fair, leelue? Can you give some reasoning behind that? I personally like both his old and new fairs because it's really good for gimping (which seems to be sonic's main focus) and you can combo off the meteor really easily. However, I like his old fair as well because of its combo-ability. It was just kind of bland looking imo, and the new sonic battle one looks much more "sonic" to me.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

I just noticed that SSBPD says I'm a better player than Yeroc (If you don't believe me, look at the NC region). Based on this and me being a CS major, does that mean I can join the PMBR?

Spoiler

Note that I'm too busy with undergraduate research to have time to actually do any work on PM, otherwise I would have applied as a coder already.

Unless you have a USB Gecko and can use it proficiently I doubt they could use you much given that the only other coding is PSA related (or I suppose updating the website, but the actual coding on that is probably minimal and/or easy). Don't quote me on this but IIRC they pretty much have all the PSA coders they need so even if you had time they probably wouldn't take you.

 

[ph00tbag]

Yeroc's on the team mostly just as a developer. His skill doesn't really play into that. Even so, he's a gold mine if you want the perspective of someone who's seen how a Smash metagame develops over 10 years.

 

[leelue]

Also why do you hate the new fair, leelue? Can you give some reasoning behind that? I personally like both his old and new fairs because it's really good for gimping (which seems to be sonic's main focus) and you can combo off the meteor really easily. However, I like his old fair as well because of its combo-ability. It was just kind of bland looking imo, and the new sonic battle one looks much more "sonic" to me.

About the spins, I was only playing devils advocate. I don't really care what the attacks animations are so long as the moves work.

anyway
The thing I dislike the most about sonic is his inability to go head to head with any move in the air. He doesn't really have a rar for bair so that's out, approaching with Uair isn't a good option most days, dair has uses (but sparingly), and nair flat out loses to everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2klOQHZUqo
Here, they get on my case because I'm f smashing a lot, but I'm using the move because I don't really have an option to get in on any of luigi's moves (ftilt, perhaps). This isn't a luigi-only problem either. Because of where old fair hit, it was a legitimate option against an opponent's walling (Which I've said is Sonic's critical weakness and why he shouldn't beat many characters piloted by players with experience against him. It's a fatal flaw that.)

The sheer weakness of the meteor annoys me to no end; It gives me an aneurysm every time I think about the 130%+ hits that didn't kill my opponent.

I find it odd that he has two weak meteors on grounded opponents (dair). The execution is different, but it's still odd to me. Not a big point.

The old fair made his grab game what it was. Down throw to fair off the ledge was insanity, and the current forward throw to old fair on the middle of the stage would be a great option as well.

More than anything, I feel offended that the move that really defined sonic for me up until I playtested the dev build before 2.0 was taken away. Stolen. Hoodwinked. I hate what the new fair stands for. I remember saying when I first played that dev build "Did someone who didn't play sonic do this?"
I was once told by someone that part of why the move was taken was because it and nair were too similar. And...

wait

What am i saying.

His current Nair could just be his old fair. I mean, you lose a mindgame but...
Hm..
Marginally weaker at low % because it was bananananas, and marginally more KBG to replace the good KBG on current nair. Done deal.

 

[Oneupsalesman]

I seriously need help on how to do the AGT. I've searched for tutorials and I still can't pull it off, PM's regarding advice on it would be appreciated.

 

[`dazrin]

About the spins, I was only playing devils advocate. I don't really care what the attacks animations are so long as the moves work.

anyway
The thing I dislike the most about sonic is his inability to go head to head with any move in the air. He doesn't really have a rar for bair so that's out, approaching with Uair isn't a good option most days, dair has uses (but sparingly), and nair flat out loses to everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2klOQHZUqo
Here, they get on my case because I'm f smashing a lot, but I'm using the move because I don't really have an option to get in on any of luigi's moves (ftilt, perhaps). This isn't a luigi-only problem either. Because of where old fair hit, it was a legitimate option against an opponent's walling (Which I've said is Sonic's critical weakness and why he shouldn't beat many characters piloted by players with experience against him. It's a fatal flaw that.)

The sheer weakness of the meteor annoys me to no end; It gives me an aneurysm every time I think about the 130%+ hits that didn't kill my opponent.

I find it odd that he has two weak meteors on grounded opponents (dair). The execution is different, but it's still odd to me. Not a big point.

The old fair made his grab game what it was. Down throw to fair off the ledge was insanity, and the current forward throw to old fair on the middle of the stage would be a great option as well.

More than anything, I feel offended that the move that really defined sonic for me up until I playtested the dev build before 2.0 was taken away. Stolen. Hoodwinked. I hate what the new fair stands for. I remember saying when I first played that dev build "Did someone who didn't play sonic do this?"
I was once told by someone that part of why the move was taken was because it and nair were too similar. And...

wait

What am i saying.

His current Nair could just be his old fair. I mean, you lose a mindgame but...
Hm..
Marginally weaker at low % because it was bananananas, and marginally more KBG to replace the good KBG on current nair. Done deal.

Thats all really true. Sonic has zero priority on his aerials and it's super easy to camp him and throw projectiles out for days. I main toon link, and just putting an arrow on the ground covers the option that sonic could approach me with a spindash. It's kinda pathetic lol.

I would be totally happy getting rid of current nair and putting old fair in it's place instead. Too many spin moves anyways. His bair really needs some REAL power/ priority though. Sonic needs to have at least one really solid aerial. Making it a sex kick would be even better, but for some reason PMBR hates the idea of giving characters sex kicks for some reason. >_>

But yeah new Usmash should be an uppercut from sonic:the fighters or sonic updraft from sonic battle. None of this super dumb "spin attack hurr durr sonic" stuff. He can keep it on his dash attack and of course his side b and down b, though. It's very fitting for those moves.

I seriously need help on how to do the AGT. I've searched for tutorials and I still can't pull it off, PM's regarding advice on it would be appreciated.

I'm working on a ToonLink ATs video right now with Frenum. Be patient! ^_^

The input is: :ltrigger::stick8:stick8: simultaneously.
You can change the direction of your momentum by changing the direction of your control stick, and you can change the direction of your bomb throw by changing the direction of your Cstick. For example, if I wanted to AGT up and towards the stage when recovering while bomb tossing towards the stage to foil edgeguard attempts, the input would be:
:ltrigger::stick9:stick6:
Just keep in mind you can only have 2 bombs out at a time, (which is dumb ) so if you want to keep AGTing for an extended amount of time, bombtoss downward so your bombs die asap.

Hope this helps!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Yeroc's on the team mostly just as a developer. His skill doesn't really play into that. Even so, he's a gold mine if you want the perspective of someone who's seen how a Smash metagame develops over 10 years.

Yeah, I know. I was really only mentioning it as a joke, because Yeroc's way better at this game than I am (except when he isn't using a controller. I can beat him then), and knows way more about the metagame than me. Plus, from my conversations with him, he seems to have a very good idea about how game design works, which is something you definitely want when working on a mod like this.

 

[leelue]

I main toon link, and just putting an arrow on the ground covers the option that sonic could approach me with a spindash. It's kinda pathetic lol.
I was so mad when I found this out. I do think it's perfectly legit though.

I would be totally happy getting rid of current nair and putting old fair in it's place instead. Too many spin moves anyways. His bair really needs some REAL power/ priority though. Sonic needs to have at least one really solid aerial. Making it a sex kick would be even better, but for some reason PMBR hates the idea of giving characters sex kicks for some reason. >_>
Bair is ok. Slow, yes. Can't Rar into it (not the move's fault), yes. But still playable.
A sex kick is of course going to be great, but sex kicks are just such a cop out


But yeah new Usmash should be an uppercut from sonic:the fighters or sonic updraft from sonic battle. None of this super dumb "spin attack hurr durr sonic" stuff. He can keep it on his dash attack and of course his side b and down b, though. It's very fitting for those moves.

I don't have much of a comment about Up smash's animation

 

[Hylian]

Has there been any discussion on removing crouch cancelling? Just kind of seems like a silly mechanic to keep in considering you get punished for hitting someone :/. I've talked about this with several melee players and most of them agree that they don't really like crouch cancelling and are just use to it. What exactly good does it add to the game? Just thought it would be good to discuss.

 

[Kati]

Crouch cancelling is definitely not one of my personal pet peeves for this game.

-You can get punished for hitting someone who shields too.
-Taking it out would require enormous balance changes (think Peach's down smash).
-It can backfire if they are at too high of percent, and go flying at a seriously low angle rather than absorb it.

 

[`dazrin]

I think it's fine. I don't really see it as janky or stupid. It's a legit strategy, imo. Besides, the people who take advantage of CCing are very obvious when they use it. Peach will always try to CC Dsmash, and sheik will do the same. Falco will also do it more occasionally than other characters as well. Just play smarter and watch yourself, and you won't get *****.

Besides, its not like it works at high %, or works all the time. Many times, people CC and they get hit at a downwards angle because they accidently DI'd downwards from CCing. It's a smart thing to do when appropriate. For example, sheiks jabs and tilts, spacie jabs, most dash attacks, etc. It's a fine mechanic in my opinion and I personally have no problem with it.

I don't know how others feel about it though. Never thought about it until now.

 

[Hylian]

How is it smart to do when appropriate? It's pretty much always smart to do in any situation aside from you being at high %. Just CC pretty much anything and then you get a free hit from just pressing down. Comparing to to a shield doesn't make sense, you can pressure shields/break them/space against them. You can CC on reaction when you are hit with a move you don't have to be holding it before. Say you are shiek fighting a DK. He can CC all of your moves till like..50% or higher even. Sooo...you run around and spam needles and grabs? There is obviously more to it than that(and I don't think people realize how useful CCing is) but that's just a simple example.

I just think it's kind of silly to get punished for hitting someone because they pressed down. It limits options in several match-ups to more campy/grab centric play at low percents and doesn't seem to add depth in any way.

 

[leelue]

I understand you, empathize with you, but I don't think the pmbr will touch it.

They kinda have a thing for melee

/back pat

 

[Kati]

I don't play Shiek, but what's wrong with grabbing? I'm willing to think otherwise, but presently, I can only imagine lots of combo opportunities going on.

The only real example I can think of is my Falcon vs. my brother's Ganon. He cc's my raptor boost often, preventing a satisfying Dair. But it's easy to see a raptor boost coming at you... so I just figure that I should be less obvious.

 

[Hylian]

I understand you, empathize with you, but I don't think the pmbr will touch it.

They kinda have a thing for melee

/back pat

Lol I understand but it's worth talking about at the very least. I love melee as well so *shrugs*.

 

[`dazrin]

These have been around for quite awhile, but I wasn't able to find them for a long time. These Matches are from May Gameclucks. 2.1 wasn't out yet and Meta had only played Projectm for a week, and it was Toph and Vish's first time playing it at that point as well. Anyways, enjoy!

Meta (Wolf) VS Toph (Fox) 1,2
Meta (Wolf) VS Toph (Fox) 3
Meta (Charizard) VS Vish (Falcon [Blaziken])

Also, PMP results thread is FINALLY up. Took some time to get the bracket google doc from someone who helped us run a Swiss bracket (even though we weren't aware that everyone just agreed to do a swiss to have more games cuz it was a small tournament)

 

[JCaesar]

His bair really needs some REAL power/ priority though.

lolwut? Bair is suuuuper disjointed. So is uair. Sonic has priority, it's just not that easy to use. But then you can just throw out side-Bs and homing attacks to beat everything.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why did it not post my post that I posted when I typed my post? dafuq.

Anyways, @hylian
Projectiles, grabs, and disjointed moves all beat out CCing for obvious reasons, unless your opponent has some ungodly disjointed move that's quick to use out of a crouch, and even then they'll only beat out another disjointed move, but not projectiles or a grab if you can land one. I don't see what the problem is. It's only REALLY good with a few characters... Regardless, you run the risk of dying an early death due to DIing badly while CCing. All it takes is a CC near the edge and enough knockback to lift you off the ground. Of course it's going to be good when done appropriately though. EVERYTHING is good when done appropriately. Even bad moves are good when done appropriately because appropriately for them is almost never.

 

[Hylian]

Right..and that doesn't address any of my points. What depth does it add? The risk/reward is largely in favor of CCing. It's not like people just sit there crouching and you think "Oh he's crouching I should grab him or something!" It's more like you successfully bait him into something and use a combo starting move and they just react and press down as your animation comes out or as they get hit and you get punished -.-. The dynamic it adds isn't fun or rewarding and quite frankly shallow. You are also enforcing my point that at low percents the game because more campy and grab centric purely because of CCing(assuming players who use it correctly).

Also seems like to me that CCing has a much larger effect in many more match-ups than it did in melee.

 

[Gimpel]

I didn't really get how exactly the mechanics behind crouch cancelling work, can someone explain that ? :S
Maybe it would be possible to tone it down so it only plays a major role from 0-25 % instead of 0-50 % like you described it with DK.
I'd also be fine if it was removed completely though

 

[jalued]

Right..and that doesn't address any of my points. What depth does it add? The risk/reward is largely in favor of CCing. It's not like people just sit there crouching and you think "Oh he's crouching I should grab him or something!" It's more like you successfully bait him into something and use a combo starting move and they just react and press down as your animation comes out or as they get hit and you get punished -.-. The dynamic it adds isn't fun or rewarding and quite frankly shallow. You are also enforcing my point that at low percents the game because more campy and grab centric purely because of CCing(assuming players who use it correctly).

Also seems like to me that CCing has a much larger effect in many more match-ups than it did in melee.

I think the concept of CC is a good one because it limits options at certain percentages, so for example you cant do repeated uptilts at 0%.

However I personally feel it is too potent in melee, because you can CC some moves at really high percentages (70-80%) which make no sense. It should be used for punishing poorly spaced and chosen moves, however with some character it has just become standard practice no matter what situation (samus, peach and bowser come to mind)

Changing how CC works would be a risky step because it would change the entire dynamic of smash and would remove part of the melee "feel" of the game. I would be in favour of it having a slightly lower cap, so you cant CC moves at high percentages

 

[DrinkingFood]

What depth does it add?

The depth of knowing whether or not to crouch cancel and risk taking damage or even being pulled into a combo for the chance at punishing and/or starting your own combo? If that's not depth then I'm not quite sure what your definition of depth is. It's not a overly good for very many characters except for like maybe... Bowser, Peach, Samus and a couple others. Even for them it's not a fix all, because it's not appropriate at all times. And if the player is using them appropriately, then that kinda makes them a good player. If you're a better player you'll be able to respond appropriately unless you're hard-countered by their character. It wasn't shown to be broken in melee. What makes it more broken here?

 

[Yeroc]

Not arguing for or against CCing, but I just want to point out that something doesn't have to be broken to the point of disrupting the competitive balance for it to be undesirable by the player base.

 

[standardtoaster]

if it was removed samus would be even worse in melee

 

[jalued]

if it was removed samus would be even worse in melee

it would pretty much destroy any current balance that PM has: samus, bowser and all heavy characters would be worse and fox/falco/sheik would become even better

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's a mix-up in and of itself. When will the move one seeks to crouch cancel come out? Should I use a different move to space for damage? Will they come down with the aerial at normal speed, with a fastfall, or an empty jump to shield/spotdodge/Jab? I think having another defensive option based on prediction is a good thing overall, especially with the offensive focus most characters have (as far as I could tell).

That said, it seems significantly more resistant to knockback in this game than it was for Melee, and that's a turn-off. I'm sick of getting all my combo options stuffed by crouch cancels at 100+%. >:/

 

[metroid1117]

I don't think crouch canceling is broken, but I agree with Hylian - it severely limits options and makes match-ups one-sided until certain %s. At low %s, there are very few ways to get clean/unpunishable hits on a grounded opponent unless you grab or throw projectiles at them. Pikachu vs Peach, for example, is extremely difficult for Pikachu in Melee (I don't know about PM, but I'd imagine it's almost the same thing) because Peach is either float-camping and beating out aerial approaches with NAirs/FAirs or crouch canceling and punishing Pikachu's poor ground range and poor knockback/damage on aerials with crouch-canceled DSmashes.

As stated before, it seems silly (to me, at least) to be punished because you hit and dealt damage to the opponent. Yes, it would make some characters much worse in Melee if it wasn't in the game (Samus, Yoshi, Peach, etc.), but I feel that PM has a unique opportunity to tweak balance issues such that characters would be viable without having to rely on crouch canceling.

 

[Stevo]

with time, people will get better at spacing and timing on their attacks. Shield grabbing is OP as well until high level play is achieved.

or just play a character with a shine.

 

[ph00tbag]

Has there been any discussion on removing crouch cancelling? Just kind of seems like a silly mechanic to keep in considering you get punished for hitting someone :/. I've talked about this with several melee players and most of them agree that they don't really like crouch cancelling and are just use to it. What exactly good does it add to the game? Just thought it would be good to discuss.

Only every time I visit Yeroc's place.

Usually, the response to the question, "Why is there still crouch canceling?" boils down to, "Because Melee."

Personally, I've been in favor of keeping something that resembles ccing during initial crouch frames, but making the crouch loop work like Brawl. That way you get the crouch cancel mix-up, but you don't drastically limit gameplay by holding down. Sheik/Jigglypuff is a lame match-up because Sheik has an absurdly small amount of responses to Jiggs doing something as simple as holding down.

 

[Stevo]

I agree, I want to be able to beat every character with sheik.

 

[shanus]

Only every time I visit Yeroc's place.

Usually, the response to the question, "Why is there still crouch canceling?" boils down to, "Because Melee."

Personally, I've been in favor of keeping something that resembles ccing during initial crouch frames, but making the crouch loop work like Brawl. That way you get the crouch cancel mix-up, but you don't drastically limit gameplay by holding down. Sheik/Jigglypuff is a lame match-up because Sheik has an absurdly small amount of responses to Jiggs doing something as simple as holding down.

However, the thing you are forgetting is that the vast majority of CC's use is not during the crouch action. I'd be willing to bet 75% of CCing is done crouch-less, because all the mechanism is as simple as SDIing into the stage when not on a downwards trajectory. With that said, crouching's knockback reduction helps with this, but still, just wanted to nip this in the bud.