Project M Social Thread

[CSDragon]

I like my controllers like I like my Ming Vases.

Kept in pristine condition, with only the gentile wear of time making them rarer and more beautiful every year.

 

[9Kplus1]

Right, so onto a different topic: I, 9kplus1, will be available as a usable character in the next patch. I'm a heavyweight with slow fall speed. A comprehensive moveset will soon follow my release; however, I'll quickly note that jumping out of my side-b will be possible

Feel free to discuss my potential impact on the still developing P:M metagame.

 

[CSDragon]

Ike's already in the game



Edit: Ok, in all srsness, sounds like Yoshi to me.

 

[Strong Badam]

Shut up 9k.

 

[Kink-Link5]

So if I can get my recording cables and **** by Thursday, I can try to record a PM, Pikmin 2, and Custom Robo setup I'll arrange when I go to AnimeIowa. I don't expect much turnout, but if we can get enough people for a round robin competition, it could be a nice few sets.

 

[9Kplus1]

Ike's already in the game

That was just something to trigger a different topic in here, since the ongoing conversation was drifting far offtopic. It was mostly an Ike reference to keep people focused on Demo 2; if it relates to any other character, then that's just pure coincidence.

 

[Tlock]

Is another CPU AI update a possibility before the next large update/demo? It would be appreciated for those of us who play CPUs more than other people.

 

[Strong Badam]

The AI should be updated in our next version, but we aren't going to release an AI upgrade before the next general update.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Just use Virtual Dub. It's what Strong Bad and I use to record with.

The only problem with Virtual Dub is the files are really big. My old laptop's hard drive was too small for me to be able to use it.

Fortunately, my new laptop has a 1TB hard drive, so I can happily use it now.

Oh, and have you seen the movie now? It was really good.

 

[Strong Badam]

Use a compression codec then. I use Lagarith Lossless Codec (1GB for about 30 mins? I dunno) and then open it up in Vegas to export to YouTube.

 

[GimR]

Smash @ Xanadu - Project M - Streaming Now - http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Use a compression codec then. I use Lagarith Lossless Codec (1GB for about 30 mins? I dunno) and then open it up in Vegas to export to YouTube.

I'll have to give that a try. I don't own a copy of Vegas, though. I tried using Pinnacle Studio to separate the individual matches, but the resulting videos would speed up and slow down at random times, so I've been borrowing computers and using iMovie instead.

 

[Strong Badam]

Vegas is free if you know where to look

 

[CSDragon]

The AI should be updated in our next version, but we aren't going to release an AI upgrade before the next general update.

But that's gonna be months from now.




It'd be cool if you guys did monthly patches or something like that like DotA/Dota 2/League. The meta doesn't need that much stewing time. I'm actually a fan of HoN's old weekly balance patches always shaking things up.

 

[DMG]

Updating weekly is a no no unless you made the patching process work over homebrew wifi/some method that isn't redownloading major stuff from the smash mod site. Every 2-4 weeks maybe, but not weekly. Weekly is a big no no.

A good idea though would be comprehensive frame data for each character, or whatever frame data you have. Right now I've only seen... I think Ike's frame data thread, didn't see one for anyone else.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I'd think every 3-4 months would be best.

For example, a summer DLC with extra characters.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Hmmm... If all I have is the dazzle apparatus and stuff to hook it up, can I still get it to work without shelling out money?

 

[CSDragon]

3-4 months?!

That's waaaaaaaaaaay too slow to fix balance.

I mean, granted, P:M doesn't have a dedicated balance analyzer who has access to replays of every competitive match ever played between the last patch and now, and fighting games have way less large tournaments than MOBAs since they're not done online, but surely enough information can be gathered to make a small balance patch in about a month.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I highly doubt a month would give enough time for the metagame to change enough to know if something is balanced or not.

In addition, you have to factor in that there's no auto-updater, so people have to update manually. Having to update every month is a lot of work.

Think of how long PM has been out for. We still don't have a good idea of what should be altered for a balance patch. Should Ike be weakened, or do people just not know how to play against him? Is Leelue amazing, or is Sonic better than people give him credit for? There are two many unknowns at the moment to make a patch.

Dazzle and Virtual Dub should be enough.

 

[Shadic]

3-4 months?!

That's waaaaaaaaaaay too slow to fix balance.

I mean, granted, P:M doesn't have a dedicated balance analyzer who has access to replays of every competitive match ever played between the last patch and now, and fighting games have way less large tournaments than MOBAs since they're not done online, but surely enough information can be gathered to make a small balance patch in about a month.

10 years isn't even enough to know where everybody places on the Melee tier list. Why would we want to do global balance changes every four months?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Because people are going to complain until you release one.

Personally, I think patches should be released every 3-4 months fixing the various physics bugs that are in 2.1, assuming you can release those without much trouble.

 

[CSDragon]

I don't know, I think the meta is more established than people think. We're just wishy-washy about it.

However, I think that to get information fast enough we definitely need more frequent tournaments (2-3 a month), sponsored players and tournaments, online ranked matches, ladders and leaderboards, etc.

@Shadic Because Icefrog is able to do it
On a more serious note: The reason it's taken 10 years is because of the lack of ranked matches and a leaderboard imo. It's nearly impossible to collect data at a consistent rate from high-tier play. However tier ranges of characters are pretty clear. I mean, this whole thing is one big balance patch to melee.


Edit: I am sometime incomprehensible and flit around from point to point. I've edited this post like 20 times and I still can't get my point across without having to say "You'll have to figure out what I actually mean by what I'm saying here"

 

[Strong Badam]

We've discussed this issue a lot in the BR, and the fact of the matter is that while we do our best to balance characters at the current time and in the interim between releases while we work on the mechanics/finalizing the game engine, we're still not at a point in development where character balance is the only thing left. 10 whole characters aren't completed design-wise yet, and we still have quite an exhaustive list of important game mechanics-related things to work out. To go "this is good enough" and start going into game-is-done-public-balance-patches-time would be to do a Brawl development-wise. What we currently have planned regarding our release schedule is what we feel is most beneficial to the game, both for our fans and for the game's competitive future. We appreciate your dedication to us and patience regarding the release of our public versions.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@raphaelrobo I don't think I have all the disks that came with it- does it install the drivers on its own or does it require those disks?

@CSDragon
ONLINE RANKED MATCHES AHAHAHAHA

 

[hotdogturtle]

So if I can get my recording cables and **** by Thursday, I can try to record a PM, Pikmin 2, and Custom Robo setup I'll arrange when I go to AnimeIowa. I don't expect much turnout, but if we can get enough people for a round robin competition, it could be a nice few sets.

Pikmin 2 battle mode? I'd watch that.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

@raphaelrobo I don't think I have all the disks that came with it- does it install the drivers on its own or does it require those disks?

I think the drivers come on the disk. I don't know if you need to install them to use VirtualDub, since it's been ages since I set mine up. If you need the driver, you can probably look in the same place SB looked to get Vegas.

 

[Strong Badam]

Driver's downloadable from http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFiles/Hardware_Installer/readmeHW10.htm
You can use VirtualDub just fine after you've installed the proper driver.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I thought it was a well known fact that raph does not know what he's talking about in regards to most things.


frequent balance patches lead to disinterest in continuous updated which lead to disinterest in the project, regardless of the fact that they aren't a good strategy for rebalancing the game. 6-9 months is a better time frame to incorporate very small, subtle changes if characters fall behind.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Like I said, when I said 3-4 months, I meant for things like physics changes, not balance changes. Unless something is completely broken (e.g. an infinite, or something), I think a year is the minimum time before we'd want a balance patch.

I'm not sure why you'd single me out, when I wasn't the one saying balance patches at least every month.

Spoiler

Now you've got me:

balance patches at least every month.

If there's something where I don't know anything about it, I'll either say something so ridiculous that it's obviously a joke, or just not talk about it. I can list examples of this if you want.

 

[DrinkingFood]

EDIT: Ignore this post, I misremembered something CSDragon said as something RaphaelRobo said.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I didn't make a post about that, did I? I was trying to come up with some joke, but couldn't get anything good.

 

[robosteven]

So uhm. Dayum. I haven't been here since Demo 2 came out, and I downloaded 2.1 but never really checked in after that. Has any breakthrough progress been made, or is it pretty consistent right now?

also hey guise

 

[Strong Badam]

No breakthroughs yet; just keep playing 2.1

 

[leelue]

Why are AI patches lumped with balance patches in terms of availability?

 

[Iceman12]

What changes have happened with the AI? Would be very interesting to know.

 

[CSDragon]

@raphaelrobo I don't think I have all the disks that came with it- does it install the drivers on its own or does it require those disks?

@CSDragon
ONLINE RANKED MATCHES AHAHAHAHA

My entire experience with competitive gaming comes from a MOBA/RTS background, and I know that's how they work there. Forgive me if something doesn't exactly translate over to the fighting genre

Though I believe most modern fighters have ranked matches, leaderboards and online rankings too though. All of which allow for a balance team to analyze top level play and keep the game balanced, sooooo I don't see what's so funny about online ranked matches being useful for determining balance.
I mean, there's no one in Melee like DOGKaiser who's job is literally to watch hundreds of replays a day, look at win/loss statistic of every hero in each bracket of skill level. Not because there's no interest for someone like that, but because it's impossible. Streams, live events and youtube videos are all the resources I believe the melee community has.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

That reminds me

Am I the only one that is bothered by how long it takes Pit to do what seems like nothing after a dthrow? I get thrown off a lot by how long the cooldown is after the actual throw because he looks like he should be able to move sooner then he can.

Was this on purpose to limit his options after dthrow?

did they change that in v2.1? because last tourney i played, pits d-throw was combo and kill setup without escape
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b2yiQ13xec&t=6m18s
(was my first match against pit, but i DIed away perfectly, still got 80% comboed of off one grab, no di or towards always resulted in upB or anything)

edit: sorry, was a couple of pages behind Oo

 

[`dazrin]

My entire experience with competitive gaming comes from a MOBA/RTS background, and I know that's how they work there. Forgive me if something doesn't exactly translate over to the fighting genre

Though I believe most modern fighters have ranked matches, leaderboards and online rankings too though. All of which allow for a balance team to analyze top level play and keep the game balanced, sooooo I don't see what's so funny about online ranked matches being useful for determining balance.
I mean, there's no one in Melee like DOGKaiser who's job is literally to watch hundreds of replays a day, look at win/loss statistic of every hero in each bracket of skill level. Not because there's no interest for someone like that, but because it's impossible. Streams, live events and youtube videos are all the resources I believe the melee community has.

Hey! You came from the HoN community too? That's cool, man.
Anyways, don't feel bad, lol. I think he thought you meant something like a "wifi-PR" or something. That kind of thing isn't really practical or accurate in the smash community because of how bad online play is. In HoN/LoL/SC2/DotA, everything is online because that is what it was made for. Smash was intended to be played in person, so I guess that's why he called you out on that one.

As for balancing characters in P:M versus balancing heroes in HoN, it's not as easy and convenient to issue out patches and have people download every single one every 2 weeks like HoN. In HoN, it's automatic so it's very easy to patch the game as much as they want. (Imagine if in HoN/LoL/SC2/DotA that in order to patch, you would have to completely redownload the game every single time. It would get on people's nerves after awhile and they would probably not be as many players.) In smash, it's just different because people will lose interest in having to keep redownloading the same game and there won't be time for a metagame to develop.

Metagame is very different in smash as opposed to the MOBA genre because the MOBA genre metagame usually revolves around countering specific heroes/strategies or capitalizing on an item or hero that isn't very balanced or has no counter for it at the time. In smash, metagame works by developing and deepening how people play characters and the techniques/strategies they employ with them. It isn't about countering a general strategy or a certain hero in smash, it's about character playstyle development, mostly. At least, that's how I've learned to understand it after being in both the MOBA and Smash competitive communities.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

@CSDragon: Keeping Smash "fresh" would piss off a lot of people, probably including you. Imagine you practice a few combos or strategies after a month that you feel completely confident in then a balance patch comes. All of a sudden, your combo can no longer be pulled off and your strategy is no longer viable. The thing you worked so hard for is gone.

It's like you drawing a picture for your parents and then your parents taking the picture, pulling down their pants and releasing their bowels all over it

 

[dirtydurrant]

@CSDragon: Keeping Smash "fresh" would piss off a lot of people, probably including you. Imagine you practice a few combos or strategies after a month that you feel completely confident in then a balance patch comes. All of a sudden, your combo can no longer be pulled off and your strategy is no longer viable. The thing you worked so hard for is gone.

It's like you drawing a picture for your parents and then your parents taking the picture, pulling down their pants and releasing their bowels all over it

If any of you guys have played SC2, you will understand how ****ing annoying it is having a patch come out every month or two. Yeah, SC2 is always fresh but high level games rarely happen when **** keeps changing. The next patch for M shouldn't be out for at least another 3 months imo, unless like someone said, there's a discovery that could break the balance of the game. Or it's some small change or fix that wasn't suppose to be there in the first place.