Project M Social Thread

[Rubyiris]

K9 is one of the few people who uses buffer. I experiment with it but prefer 0 buffer.

Sent from my LG-VM670 using Tapatalk 2

 

[metroid1117]

In other news, I played a butt ton of Ike. I won most of the games I played, but it wasn't easy. Seems like only time I really got things going with him was when Oksas messed up.

I saw some of your matches (second video against Wolf and the Ike/Ganon video), I was impressed with what I saw. If you want, I can comment on some of the matches with suggestions.

Just out of curiosity, what's your opinion on Ike after playing him more? If I recall correctly, you thought he was mediocre/bad when Demo 2 first came out. Has your opinion changed since then?

As a side note, I'm impartial whether or not buffer is allowed. I'm not even sure if it exists in PM or not, but it'd be interesting to see if buffer would make the chaingrab that Ganon has on Fox/Falco in Melee more practical.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

That chaingrab is already pretty practical, Ganon's just suck at doing it. We had a discussion about it recently in the Ganon boards, which led to more people working on it, and more people pulling it off in tournament.

It's nowhere near as easy as the Lucas chaingrab, though.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

That was the depression talking. I've been trying to live my life without treatment, but I've come to the conclusion that I just can't do it anymore.

When I'm actually in a decent mindset, smash is enjoyable.

/Offtopic:

I had this problem related to smash because of my depression, I hated smash, my community, losing and so on.

If you feel that you need treatment just take every bit of help you can (social support, medication, therapy etc.). Depression is not forever (even though it feels like it) and ultimately you learn how to heal yourself. For myself, a lot of it had to do with learning to love myself and to improve my self-esteem (discovering the loving inner voice as opposed to the negative one). It's still a work in progress but when you start to learn how to love yourself and your self-esteem improves, it feels better than anything.

Also, I've gotten hella lot better at smash because of it lol

Don't give up, negative experiences make us strong in the end

Sorry about offtopic

/Offtopic

 

[CSDragon]

That chaingrab is already pretty practical, Ganon's just suck at doing it. We had a discussion about it recently in the Ganon boards, which led to more people working on it, and more people pulling it off in tournament.

It's nowhere near as easy as the Lucas chaingrab, though.

Once you get them past 20% pits is super easy too and works until like freakin 90% or more

 

[GaretHax]

melee had buffer for spotdodges and rolls if I'm not mistaken.
I'm not entirely against buffer but I would like to see the option to have buffer to be gone in demo 3. It doesn't really work as a learning tool and only leads to these discussions that lead nowhere.
It would be fine if the PMBR decided to universally put in buffer, so that everyone would still play the same game. Right now, you would have to adjust from tournament to tournament to play with buffer or without, because while there is a trade-off, playing without buffer at a tournament where buffer is allowed will put you at a disadvantage.
It's also not even easy to switch between using buffer and using no buffer, because you can use an ENTIRELY different timing to wavedash when using 3 or 4 frames of buffer and you will eventually get used to that easier timing after playing for a few hours. Readjusting every time you play the game (as intended) without buffer would be a pain.
Luckily, there are no tournaments allowing buffer yet, but it would really help to just have the option to have buffer removed in demo 3 so this stupid discussion can finally end.

Personally, I have nothing against buffer in a game, as long as it doesn't split the community and doesn't allow things to be done more consistently that are balanced around being hard to do, like multishines.
I personally would be fine with buffer for:
-Dashing after landing lag
-A-button-attacks after other A-button-actions (dsmash after dash attack, up tilt after ledge-attack etc.)
-Aerials during jump start up (NOT specials, to prevent easy multishining to break the game)
-Not 100 % sure on this but air dodges during jump start up (aka frame 1 wave dashes), so that wavedashing smart and in the correct situations becomes more important than the action itself. This, however, definitely lowers the tech skill needed so I'm not sure. Another point for adding buffer for that is that it makes wavedashing easier for people who main two characters with different jump start up.

Anyway, I only want this kind of buffer when it is not optional and I can definitely see why the PMBR would go the melee route and not add any buffer except for dodges/rolls (and I would definitely be fine with that as well), I just don't think having the option to play with buffer in the game accomplishes anything

Honestly I agree with all his main points, though tbh melee only style buffer sounds better than a mashup of attempted band-aids. Not to say that there isn't any merit to that suggestion, because it does sound cool, I just don't think it would fit the goals of the project. If you can't moonwalk practice, if you can't sh-bair-DJ-double-bair with Ganon your life isn't worth living, I mean erm practice >_> The option to have buffer was a really nice thought and a cool idea in essence. I just fail to see its practicality or how it can really do anything but cause unnecessary conflicts within the community. (well besides making things easier and eliminating a tech skill barrier that really does NEED to be there)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No reason to split the community. Just allow it for now to see what happens. I highly doubt that it would ever hurt attendance, and I know it would help in places.

This mod stands the greatest chance of working out by stressing that it's a Melee-Brawl hybrid. If anyone wants this to be the future of Smash, we should at least try it instead of alienating players over something that hasn't even been shown to hurt competitive play.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah! And why don't we also add a timer to hitstun so that people can break out with an air dodge or an aerial? Brawl has it, and yet tournament play still exists, and strongly too. It doesn't hurt tournament attendance, so that must mean it's a good thing.
And let's take out L-canceling, because, apparently, there is no competitive basis for it. Brawl doesn't have it after all. And using brawl in arguments is a good idea.

In truth, people aren't going to quit playing smash because of a lack of buffer unless they weren't really serious about it anyways.

 

[GaretHax]

Yeah! And why don't we also add a timer to hitstun so that people can break out with an air dodge or an aerial? Brawl has it, and yet tournament play still exists, and strongly too. It doesn't hurt tournament attendance, so that must mean it's a good thing.
And let's take out L-canceling, because, apparently, there is no competitive basis for it. Brawl doesn't have it after all. And using brawl in arguments is a good idea.

In truth, people aren't going to quit playing smash because of a lack of buffer unless they weren't really serious about it anyways.

Out of pure curiousity who are you directing this at? As I'm all for completely doing away with brawl's global buffer. Personally I think leaving it in is just inviting well exactly this here among the community, not to mention bridgeing far too big a tech-skill gap. (and who honestly wants to n-air to their deaths everytime they jab too close to a ledge anyway?)

 

[DrinkingFood]

'Twas directed at TheReflexWonder.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

so played this for the 1st time in a long time and bowser is pretty awesome well done. (still mad no zss)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah! And why don't we also add a timer to hitstun so that people can break out with an air dodge or an aerial? Brawl has it, and yet tournament play still exists, and strongly too. It doesn't hurt tournament attendance, so that must mean it's a good thing.
And let's take out L-canceling, because, apparently, there is no competitive basis for it. Brawl doesn't have it after all. And using brawl in arguments is a good idea.

In truth, people aren't going to quit playing smash because of a lack of buffer unless they weren't really serious about it anyways.

No one is asking the PMBR to add anything. There's just no reason to ban something in the game if it isn't detrimental to the competitive scene, especially if banning it is potentially detrimental to the competitive scene.

The ability to airdodge out of hitstun isn't something you can turn on or off; we don't have that kind of luxury. Also, even if it were, we would switch it to what appeared to make for a better game. I don't feel that taking away the buffer option that the game gives you makes it a better game. Also, no one is questioning the idea of quitting Smash, because you can't quit something you don't play in the first place. The problem is that people would be put off from giving it a real shot. Don't like airdodging to your death after getting jabbed? Get better with buffer, or keep it off. No one is forcing any player to do anything by turning on the OPTIONAL BUFFER setting.

 

[DrinkingFood]

She'll be in it in due time, Nagace, don't fret. Undoubtedly in the next release.

 

[foshio]

I, for one, think that buffer should be removed. To compete at a high level players should be in complete control of their character at every instant. I think it is unskillful any other way and thus, not like melee...

 

[FireBall Stars]

Many fighting games have some degree of buffer, but it's very rare that buffer to be universal.

Buffer on fgames can change depending on the specific move you hit and even more if it was a counter hit or not. Sometimes its value even depends on which move you are trying to do next.

Buffer is mainly used due to ease the execution of moves that require an specific motion, or else it would require a frame perfect input, generating 1 frame link everywhere for everything.

It's usually used to turn things humanly possible since many inputs are required on the same time, moving from all 8 directional inputs with some characters, so, it's ultimately needed.

i.e (completely hypothetical and only illustrative values) a dash to a jump has a buffer value of 4 frames, a dash to a hadouken could be of 7 frames, and a dash from a shoryuken of 10 frames. If hit used in a counter hit, each buffer value would be increased by 20%.

Smash doesn't have that kind of difficulty, I don't see how an universal buffer is needed, it has been clearly put on brawl to give the impression that the controls are smoother and easier to control for a wider public.

 

[hotdogturtle]

This isn't "many games", this is Smash and using several unrelated games as an argument for something in this game is entirely stupid.

*not taking sides*

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Many fighting games have some degree of buffer, but it's very rare that buffer to be universal.

Buffer on fgames can change depending on the specific move you hit and even more if it was a counter hit or not. Sometimes its value even depends on which move you are trying to do next.

Buffer is mainly used due to ease the execution of moves that require an specific motion, or else it would require a frame perfect input, generating 1 frame link everywhere for everything.

It's usually used to turn things humanly possible since many inputs are required on the same time, moving from all 8 directional inputs with some characters, so, it's ultimately needed.

Smash doesn't have that kind of difficulty, I don't see how an universal buffer is needed, it has been clearly put on brawl to give the impression that the controls are smoother and easier to control for a wider public.

They can, but, they don't (necessarily). For example, if I'm not mistaken, Soul Calibur has a TWENTY-FRAME universal buffer.

Also, your statement about how Smash doesn't have that kind of difficulty spits in the face of every single Melee player on Earth, as well as knowledgeable Brawl players (certain BDACUSes; this thing). I would recommend clicking the link that was referenced earlier to get a better understanding of how it can benefit the game.

That said, this is an entirely different series and an entirely different situation. We shouldn't need to feel validated by assuming that other games' systems are automatically better, whether that's by allowing an optional buffer or taking it out.

I, for one, think that buffer should be removed. To compete at a high level players should be in complete control of their character at every instant. I think it is unskillful any other way and thus, not like melee...

"Just like Melee" does not automatically equal skillful. P:M uses the Melee teching system, which is incredibly lenient and "unskillful" compared to Brawl's teching.

 

[FireBall Stars]

They can, but, they don't (necessarily). For example, if I'm not mistaken, Soul Calibur has a TWENTY-FRAME universal buffer.

Also, your statement about how Smash doesn't have that kind of difficulty spits in the face of every single Melee player on Earth, as well as knowledgeable Brawl players (certain BDACUSes; this thing). I would recommend clicking the link that was referenced earlier to get a better understanding of how it can benefit the game.



"Just like Melee" does not automatically equal skillful. P:M uses the Melee teching system, which is incredibly lenient and "unskillful" compared to Brawl's teching.

That's a good argument, I'll research more about SCV.

Btw, it doesn't spit on anyone if you see how I say it, smash doesn't have the difficulty of needing to do many different inputs for one single move.

Technical Skill on smash has a different kind of direction based on physics dominance and simple inputs or combinations of simple inputs done on rapid succesion, increasing difficulty. Not to mention that the directional inputs on smash are analogical instead of digital, allowing more that just 8 directions.

I have to agree on the teching situation, teching is much easier in melee, however, it's more needed during the on-stage gameplay, and still it's not rare to see people missing techs.

 

[ZodiakLucien]

buffering is only bad if it allows ridiculous amount of OS, which doesnt really exist in smash. Buffering doesn't allow them to do anything they couldn't otherwise, there should be no problem. People are freaking out over nothing. If buffering, which is optional, only makes the game more accessible for people then it's a plus all around.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I have to agree on the teching situation, teching is much easier in melee, however, it's more needed during the on-stage gameplay, and still it's not rare to see people missing techs.

Well, maybe they should just get better.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Not counting the many factors behind that, yeah, probably yes.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Personally, I think that at least wavedashing should be buffered. I mean, it's a basic technical skill that everyone should be able to do. I don't see a problem with making it slightly easier for people to learn, so they can get into the good part of the game (spacing, reads, etc) instead of spending forever trying to learn to wavedash. L-cancelling is already a lot easier thanks to the flash, so I don't see any reason to not make wavedashing slightly easier. That being said, being able to L-cancel is a lot more important than being able to wavedash.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Buffering removes room for error in high level play, especially in very frame tight situations like wavedashing. In other words, anything buffer is applied to becomes not only easy to learn but easy to perform perfectly even under pressure.

The argument that buffer is needed to bring in players who would not other play is invalid. That's what non-technical characters like Bowser, Jigglypuff, Donkey Kong, etc are far. Since they're all now viable characters, buffer isn't needed nor will it help attract players who wouldn't play characters such as the above in the first place. Project: M, as I recall, does not exist to cater to bad players, not to attract people who aren't willing to put in the time to learn the technical aspects of the game as is. I've said it before and I'll say a dozen times more: the pro-buffer side of this argument, the one making the claim, has to show that buffer deserves to be allowed. Neither I nor any other anti-bufferer needs to show that it doesn't need to be allowed, because we are not making a claim (that buffer will widen the audience).

 

[GP&B]

Personally, buffer is better off as a training tool for more intricate techniques like waveshining or Mario's SH Bair waveland. It's something you narrow down to 0 frames so that you can do it without the assistance.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Buffering removes room for error in high level play, especially in very frame tight situations like wavedashing. In other words, anything buffer is applied to becomes not only easy to learn but easy to perform perfectly even under pressure.

The argument that buffer is needed to bring in players who would not other play is invalid. That's what non-technical characters like Bowser, Jigglypuff, Donkey Kong, etc are far. Since they're all now viable characters, buffer isn't needed nor will it help attract players who wouldn't play characters such as the above in the first place. Project: M, as I recall, does not exist to cater to bad players, not to attract people who aren't willing to put in the time to learn the technical aspects of the game as is. I've said it before and I'll say a dozen times more: the pro-buffer side of this argument, the one making the claim, has to show that buffer deserves to be allowed. Neither I nor any other anti-bufferer needs to show that it doesn't need to be allowed, because we are not making a claim (that buffer will widen the audience).

It's worth noting that I wouldn't have entered my first (and, as a result of how pleased I was, my second) P:M tournament if buffering hadn't been legal. Pretty sure I'm not the only person who has had a similar experience and/or wouldn't have bothered without the welcome help (since I was especially used to Brawl and the character models are very similar/identical, it would have messed up my inputs pretty terribly).

I don't have to "prove" anything--I'm TELLING you that turning off an option without testing it in tournament play can only stifle community growth and alienate players. It may or may not be by a significant amount, and none of us can say with certainty either way. It shows that the people in charge of the tournament scene don't care about figuring out what options make the game most enjoyable and/or most competitive for the community. It's an ignorant, premature, "my way or the highway" attitude that I don't share and don't care to support. If you don't see any problem with this kind of thinking, then just ignore me and leave it at that, because it would mean you don't care about the community, which means I don't give a damn what you think about the subject. If you have trouble with the way I view the anti-buffering argument, then please point out what I'm missing. I just want the community to potentially benefit as much as possible, and the way I see it, that can only happen by trying every option currently available to us.

Even if you think it would hurt the game, there is absolutely no reason that people shouldn't at least test it to see how it affects gameplay, instead of auto-banning it and using unfounded theorycrafting to try to justify their point. I'm not suggesting that the developers modify the game in any way. I just want people to be open to trying the options that are already available to us.

People say that the developers are balancing characters without an optional buffer in mind. That doesn't mean that the game might be more enjoyable and/or more competitive with the optional buffer on. The P:M developers are also not balancing characters with inevitable glitches/future ATs in mind, but, the same logic works there, too. Giving people a chance to use and abuse new mechanics will only give us a greater understanding of what to do with our tournaments in the future.

 

[MonkUnit]

Unless buffer is proven to be broken, unfair, etc. in multiple tournaments, I don't think it should be removed. While it does make certain things easier, I have not seen any tournament results and/or videos showing how broken it is.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Unless buffer is proven to be broken, unfair, etc. in multiple tournaments, I don't think it should be removed. While it does make certain things easier, I have not seen any tournament results and/or videos showing how broken it is.

I think the main argument used against it is that it grants players a way to lower the tech skill barrier in a significant, turn-tourney-results-upside-down kind of way that is detrimental to competitive play, not that it's inherently broken. That said, I don't agree with that statement, either.

Also, I've heard a lot of "Melee master race," which is also silly, given the number of Brawl elements used.

 

[Rubyiris]

/Offtopic:

I had this problem related to smash because of my depression, I hated smash, my community, losing and so on.

If you feel that you need treatment just take every bit of help you can (social support, medication, therapy etc.). Depression is not forever (even though it feels like it) and ultimately you learn how to heal yourself. For myself, a lot of it had to do with learning to love myself and to improve my self-esteem (discovering the loving inner voice as opposed to the negative one). It's still a work in progress but when you start to learn how to love yourself and your self-esteem improves, it feels better than anything.

Also, I've gotten hella lot better at smash because of it lol

Don't give up, negative experiences make us strong in the end

Sorry about offtopic

/Offtopic

I was originally diagnosed with clinical depression at 13. I'm 22 now, and probably worse off now than I was then.

 

[kaizo13]

max buffer should only be 3-4 frames imo

 

[Rubyiris]

max buffer should be what ever the person feels like.

 

[kaizo13]

max buffer should be what ever the person feels like.

i disagree....you simply would be taking away from high level play, which revolves around precision. first to make a mistake gets punished. Nobody can successfully wavedash with fox everytime under pressure, under any situation.....well, unless ofcourse you got buffer

 

[Rubyiris]

And games shouldn't be arbitrarily difficult.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

i disagree....you simply would be taking away from high level play, which revolves around precision. first to make a mistake gets punished. Nobody can successfully wavedash with fox everytime under pressure, under any situation.....well, unless ofcourse you got buffer

That hasn't been proven through competitive play using the optional buffer. Until that happen, I don't feel that that is a viable excuse to ban it from tournament use.

Hell, for all we know, high-level play might not revolve around precision, either. "High-level play" will probably be very different for most characters at some point in the future, even if we pretend that V2.1 is the final version.

 

[KingBlaze777]

@TheReflexWonder

The public to whom this mod is intended to cater is the hardcore Melee players and the PMBR recommends that setting Buffer to 0 be the standard. Why? Because it allows you to perform AT's much easier than they are. Just imagine a random scrub (scrub = person that has never played Melee) learning the input sequence for Waveshining and doing it consistently with buffer. Melee didn't have buffer IIRC and if you wanted to waveshine, you had to practice A LOT to do it.

The PMBR gave us Buffer so that Brawl players could start working their way down from 10 frames of buffer all the way towards 0 frames, they didn't make it with the intention of buffer being present in competitive gameplay. If it's too hard for pro-buffer players to play with 0 buffer... Well, maybe they should just get better.

 

[MonkUnit]

Melee had buffer. You could buffer shield rolls, spot dodges, and jump out of shield with the C stick.

 

[kaizo13]

yes, and P:M has universal buffer....big difference

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@TheReflexWonder

The public to whom this mod is intended to cater is the hardcore Melee players and the PMBR recommends that setting Buffer to 0 be the standard. Why? Because it allows you to perform AT's much easier than they are. Just imagine a random scrub (scrub = person that has never played Melee) learning the input sequence for Waveshining and doing it consistently with buffer. Melee didn't have buffer IIRC and if you wanted to waveshine, you had to practice A LOT to do it.

The PMBR gave us Buffer so that Brawl players could start working their way down from 10 frames of buffer all the way towards 0 frames, they didn't make it with the intention of buffer being present in competitive gameplay. If it's too hard for pro-buffer players to play with 0 buffer... Well, maybe they should just get better.

That's not what this page says--

http://projectm.dantarion.com/about/

The only point of contention within that would be, "where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved," and I would definitely argue that that is the case regardless of whether or not the optional buffer is allowed. It doesn't make L-Cancels easier to hit or (S)DI easier to input. I've also yet to see any proof that the optional buffer would make anyone suddenly be capable of mastering waveshining with Fox, so that's not fair to say, either. If a person argues that an optional buffer is too significant a weakening of the technical aspect of the game, then they should also demand that they shave off 15+ frames off the tech window to bring it back to Brawl-level difficulty.

I don't see anything about this necessarily catering to only the most hardcore Melee enthusiasts.

Melee had buffer. You could buffer shield rolls, spot dodges, and jump out of shield with the C stick.

As an aside, the main reason I prefer to use buffering when I play is to be able to jump out of shieldstun efficiently. If Melee allows you to buffer that via C-Sticking, my need must be fulfilled if it's at all possible, regardless of who does or doesn't have a beef with a universal optional buffer.

 

[MonkUnit]

I've also yet to see any proof that the optional buffer would make anyone suddenly be capable of mastering waveshining with Fox, so that's not fair to say, either.

^^^ Without any tourney vids, results, etc. proof showing that buffer should be turned off at all times, it's just all theory-smashing.

 

[NeoZ]

If a person argues that an optional buffer is too significant a weakening of the technical aspect of the game, then they should also demand that they shave off 15+ frames off the tech window to bring it back to Brawl-level difficulty.

This straw man+slippery slope reminded me of a question I had:

How did teching work in Brawl?
I remember that in my short experience with the game I found teching to be a bit weird and it didn't seem to be just a shorter tech window(maybe it was, I only played the game for a couple of days anyways).

Since you guys had to change in order for it to match Melee, what exactly did you have to change?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How did teching work in Brawl?
I remember that in my short experience with the game I found teching to be a bit weird and it didn't seem to be just a shorter tech window(maybe it was, I only played the game for a couple of days anyways).

Since you guys had to change in order for it to match Melee, what exactly did you have to change?

If I recall correctly, it's based on distance from the techable ground/wall in Brawl. I think the window is generally somewhere between 3 and 5 frames.

In Melee and P:M, it's, "If you hit a techable ground/wall within 20 frames of pressing a Shield button, you tech. If you don't hit a techable ground/wall 20 frames after pressing a Shield button, you cannot tech for 40 frames afterward."

Outside of that, Melee allowed you to SDI into a wall that you're touching during hitlag and tech it as knockback starts, no matter what direction you're being sent toward, but because of the way the game engine works, they haven't been able to recreate that in P:M.