JediKnightTemplar
Smash Lord
What else would you say gives him problems? The other main thing I've noticed is that Pit has priority over a lot of Ganon's attacks and he's able to recover quite well due to the fact he has something like 5 jumps IIRC.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
- Start date
- Status
`dazrin
Smash Champion
pit has 3 jumps, jkt 
JediKnightTemplar
Smash Lord
I knew it was a prime number, I just don't play him enough to remember which one.
EDIT: Jiggs has 5 jumps, that must have been what I was thinking of.
EDIT: Jiggs has 5 jumps, that must have been what I was thinking of.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
1 normal jump + 3 midair jumps.
`dazrin
Smash Champion
^Thats why I thought it was a spike, but i guess not.
and sorry i meant 3 midair jumps.. >_> yeesh lol
and sorry i meant 3 midair jumps.. >_> yeesh lol
yea I figured...but that's just confusing. We don't say that fox, falco, marth, ganon etc have 1 jump
and yea i thought Pit's dair was a spike as well....it's quite hard to land consistently
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
anyone care to explain this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeqPfVoPkCA
looks like a clone engine to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeqPfVoPkCA
looks like a clone engine to me.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
No, it's not a clone engine. On the other hand...
THAT CSS ACTUALLY WORKS?! I've seen it via a link on a signature in Smashmods, but HELL, I'VE NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD ACTUALLY WORK!
This is the post: http://lsteam.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=menu&action=display&thread=224&page=1
EDIT: after seeing a bit of the video, i think it might be.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
There's some old codes floating around for a clone engine that allows you to have 2 marths, one over MarioD. They're hidden somewhere on one of Dant's old public webpages. It has numerous aesthetic and probably practical bugs, but it works. They probably spent some time digging it up and used it for this video. Requires a custom CSS to even use it IIRC.
This info is not only public but almost 2 years old at this point. It was never really big-time publicized, but it's sort of weird how few people know about this stuff (nobody follows the clone engine :<). I guess cats out of the bag now, huh?
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Coming soon (within the next 2 hours), the match of the century: 9K+1 vs ThatGuyYouMightKnow (the guy 9K basically replaced in our crew).
2 small sarcastic black guys walk in. Only 1 walks out. Who is the supreme Tay Zonday? Place your bets now!
Tune in to http://www.twitch.tv/jcaesar in an hour or so to find out!
2 small sarcastic black guys walk in. Only 1 walks out. Who is the supreme Tay Zonday? Place your bets now!
Tune in to http://www.twitch.tv/jcaesar in an hour or so to find out!
MaxThunder
PM Support
What's MarioD?..
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
debug mario, a test mario slot
JCaesar
Smash Hero
http://www.twitch.tv/jcaesar
After we build up some viewers, then it's SHOWDOWN TIME!
Probably like 7ish.
After we build up some viewers, then it's SHOWDOWN TIME!
Probably like 7ish.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
I have to question zeldas balance...IMO she is far and away the best character in the game.
she has the 2 best moves in the game...faeores wind and nayrus love. are both rediculous. you thought dins fire was where its at? Thats just the tip of the iceberg
Lemee go over the problems with both and maybe y'all can see where Im coming from here...lets compare Faeores wind to the only other teleport in smash, mewtwos teleport. Im talking primarily about onstage usage, not for recovery purposes fyi.
+ Faeores goes about 2x further, with the option to make it any virtually length inbetween
+ Faeores has a starting and ending hitbox, M2s has neither
+ The ending hitbox is cancellable into a waveland, which makes the move safe at the cost of the explosion not coming out - this is the kicker
- 30~ frames of startup, M2s had very little
I'd like to talk about the last positive bit, because that is what makes her teleport truly outrageous IMO. With this she can safely ESCAPE EVERY NEGATIVE SITUATION because there is no way to stop her from teleporting the whole stage away when you are approaching her. This would normally be able to be stopped by baiting her and waiting, but because of the HITBOX, that is not an option. Lets go down the flowchart scenario real quick:
> You are running at a Zelda, who gets scared and starts up a teleport before you can reach her.
> You see her start to teleport and you immediately hold middle ground between where shes currently at and her max teleport range. For the sake of example lets say you're falcon and can close this gap very easily no matter where she chooses to go. Effectively, you've punished her already and the moves not even over yet, a very good play from you!
Now either one of two things will happen:
{> But wait! Zelda's not done yet - she teleports right in front of you, as you predicted, and you run to punish her ending lag. But wait, she wavelands and there is none! Well you sure screwed up, as the only counter to this is to have a move out in the 10 frames of vulnerability she has during the endlag.
{> But wait! Zelda's not done yet - she teleports right on top of you, and explodes in your face. Well damn, that was silly of you to not see that coming, you suck! The only counter to this is to shield the explosion or move out of range of it.}
Do you see the problem here? If not, let me spell it out a bit more - This means you have to not only predict where she is going, but what she will do out of it, and the counters for her two OOT options are direct opposites. So not only do you have a 1/16 chance of correctly guessing where shes going (which can be reduced through proper thought and option coverage, of course), but then you have another 50/50 mixup even if you guess correctly! IMO, that's pretty outrageous.
Anyway, the other move I think needs a tone down is Nayrus Love. Let's compare it to its only other similar counterpart, Fox/Falcos Shine:
+ Roughly 2-3x the range as shine
+ REDICULOUS priority, good luck finding any move that beats this without a crazy disjoint
+ Helps with recovery when you Love Boost
+ Completely safe on shield due to:
+ Land cancellable, meaning when she jumps and uses it (and her height gain is completely stopped when initiating the move, leading to easy application of this) her landing is lag-free. This leads to:
= All 3 characters have guaranteed kill combos off this move (Falco has dair stuff, Fox shine spikes, Zelda has LC Nayrus to Uair or other aerials or even ftilt into other aerials or smashes at lower percents - its not just for kills anymore!)
= Invincible, but I believe Zelda has a bit more invincibility than shine so thats more of a plus for her really
= Both reflect projectiles (ofc)
- Shines are Jump cancellable, giving it a bit more utilty than only land cancellable nayrus
Keep in mind that people already hold Shine to be one of the best moves in the game. Nayrus Love is a better shine, though with less mixup potential to be fair. Still, calling the moves comparable is totally realistic with all of the buffs it received.
On top of this, shes got Dins which everyone knows are very good. LKs (and combos into them =D), buffed smashes which you cant fall out of (Seriously wtf, that is the whole weakness of multihit moves, you can basically consider them one hit attacks with active hitboxes the entire time LOL)...IMO shes the best character in the game currently. She doesnt get too much love (which Im hugely thankful for), because if everyone played her this game would be terrible trying to fight through all of this BS.
she has the 2 best moves in the game...faeores wind and nayrus love. are both rediculous. you thought dins fire was where its at? Thats just the tip of the iceberg
Lemee go over the problems with both and maybe y'all can see where Im coming from here...lets compare Faeores wind to the only other teleport in smash, mewtwos teleport. Im talking primarily about onstage usage, not for recovery purposes fyi.
+ Faeores goes about 2x further, with the option to make it any virtually length inbetween
+ Faeores has a starting and ending hitbox, M2s has neither
+ The ending hitbox is cancellable into a waveland, which makes the move safe at the cost of the explosion not coming out - this is the kicker
- 30~ frames of startup, M2s had very little
I'd like to talk about the last positive bit, because that is what makes her teleport truly outrageous IMO. With this she can safely ESCAPE EVERY NEGATIVE SITUATION because there is no way to stop her from teleporting the whole stage away when you are approaching her. This would normally be able to be stopped by baiting her and waiting, but because of the HITBOX, that is not an option. Lets go down the flowchart scenario real quick:
> You are running at a Zelda, who gets scared and starts up a teleport before you can reach her.
> You see her start to teleport and you immediately hold middle ground between where shes currently at and her max teleport range. For the sake of example lets say you're falcon and can close this gap very easily no matter where she chooses to go. Effectively, you've punished her already and the moves not even over yet, a very good play from you!
Now either one of two things will happen:
{> But wait! Zelda's not done yet - she teleports right in front of you, as you predicted, and you run to punish her ending lag. But wait, she wavelands and there is none! Well you sure screwed up, as the only counter to this is to have a move out in the 10 frames of vulnerability she has during the endlag.
{> But wait! Zelda's not done yet - she teleports right on top of you, and explodes in your face. Well damn, that was silly of you to not see that coming, you suck! The only counter to this is to shield the explosion or move out of range of it.}
Do you see the problem here? If not, let me spell it out a bit more - This means you have to not only predict where she is going, but what she will do out of it, and the counters for her two OOT options are direct opposites. So not only do you have a 1/16 chance of correctly guessing where shes going (which can be reduced through proper thought and option coverage, of course), but then you have another 50/50 mixup even if you guess correctly! IMO, that's pretty outrageous.
Anyway, the other move I think needs a tone down is Nayrus Love. Let's compare it to its only other similar counterpart, Fox/Falcos Shine:
+ Roughly 2-3x the range as shine
+ REDICULOUS priority, good luck finding any move that beats this without a crazy disjoint
+ Helps with recovery when you Love Boost
+ Completely safe on shield due to:
+ Land cancellable, meaning when she jumps and uses it (and her height gain is completely stopped when initiating the move, leading to easy application of this) her landing is lag-free. This leads to:
= All 3 characters have guaranteed kill combos off this move (Falco has dair stuff, Fox shine spikes, Zelda has LC Nayrus to Uair or other aerials or even ftilt into other aerials or smashes at lower percents - its not just for kills anymore!)
= Invincible, but I believe Zelda has a bit more invincibility than shine so thats more of a plus for her really
= Both reflect projectiles (ofc)
- Shines are Jump cancellable, giving it a bit more utilty than only land cancellable nayrus
Keep in mind that people already hold Shine to be one of the best moves in the game. Nayrus Love is a better shine, though with less mixup potential to be fair. Still, calling the moves comparable is totally realistic with all of the buffs it received.
On top of this, shes got Dins which everyone knows are very good. LKs (and combos into them =D), buffed smashes which you cant fall out of (Seriously wtf, that is the whole weakness of multihit moves, you can basically consider them one hit attacks with active hitboxes the entire time LOL)...IMO shes the best character in the game currently. She doesnt get too much love (which Im hugely thankful for), because if everyone played her this game would be terrible trying to fight through all of this BS.
personally i don't really mind farore's wind...but naryus love is ********. the range on it pretty much shuts down everything and even when i try to space it out...you still get hit by the end hitboxes when trying to punish her endlag, or she'll just landcancel and beat you with an u-tilt
/********
/********
JCaesar
Smash Hero
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention if you guess wrong on the faeroes after guessing right on where shes going, not only do you not get anything, you actually get punished.
Shield the waveland -> She can grab or something. Or just wait for you to do an OOS option and punish that. whenever your shielding and your opponents not doing anything, thats a loss for you.
Attack the explosion -> obv, you get exploded on lol.
I just said that you had to guess correctly in the post, I didnt go into detail about what happens if you guess wrong. TLDR: You lose.
Just..everything about this character...who was in charge of her? Im curious...
Shield the waveland -> She can grab or something. Or just wait for you to do an OOS option and punish that. whenever your shielding and your opponents not doing anything, thats a loss for you.
Attack the explosion -> obv, you get exploded on lol.
I just said that you had to guess correctly in the post, I didnt go into detail about what happens if you guess wrong. TLDR: You lose.
Just..everything about this character...who was in charge of her? Im curious...
Do you realize how fast shine is?
And being jump cancelable is not something minor that you can just shrug off as "a bit more utility".
Jonny Westside
S4mus Fiend
Ryoko, a melee Zelda main. So there's obvious bias towards her lol
I do agree with every point you made, simply piling on buffs at this point is just ridiculous.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
sure it is. I might not have gone into total and utter detail, but once the respective moves land nayrus is far better. shine is only better if you miss, because of the safety. but nayrus is still safe if you miss as long as you jumped before using it, which is as obvious as
going into flight with morrigan before shooting a soul fist lol (Yay Hidden
marvel references.)
missiles!
and shine is faster, yes. should've put that under the cons, but forgot to mention it. That doesn't really change anything however.
Archangel
Smash Hero
I don't think Zelda is far and away the best character. I do feel she's the only character that feels intentionally S-tier design. and having Sheik(another S-tier) as her downB doesn't help.
Alot of terrible characters were made pretty good. The got the tools they needed to be better. Zelda has alot of tools she needed to compete. Then they gave her extra tools for the **** of it.
Alot of terrible characters were made pretty good. The got the tools they needed to be better. Zelda has alot of tools she needed to compete. Then they gave her extra tools for the **** of it.
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
how to make zelda more balanced:
nerfs:
remove or less invincibility on air nayru but keep land cancel.
more end lag on fire hit box on up b so it has more risk in the mix up.
buffs: more frames to hit the thunder kicks keep the one frame critical kick.
these are the only things i think may need to be done.
nerfs:
remove or less invincibility on air nayru but keep land cancel.
more end lag on fire hit box on up b so it has more risk in the mix up.
buffs: more frames to hit the thunder kicks keep the one frame critical kick.
these are the only things i think may need to be done.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
the invincibility on nayrus doesnt even matter against most of the cast, since you need a long disjoint to get through it to begin with. removing it will only affect her vs like, Ike, Marth...a few others with random long disjoints lol. I didnt even know she had it until I was playing one with Ike earlier today for example.
and endlag on fire is similarly pointless. if you shield the fire, you will get a punish as is. the PROBLEM lies in there being the 50/50 with two mutually exclusive options to cover them. it is essentially rewarding zelda even when her opponent reads her. it is supposed to be the players responsibility to teleport safely, not have the move make it safe for you. thats just absurd!
so you suggesting those two nerfs specifically that wouldn't really do anything is kind of weird. and then having the gall to suggest a BUFF on top of it to her best killing move is just like...I dont even know.
Do all zelda players think this way? Maybe we just need to get someone who doesnt play Zelda to design her to avoid all this
and endlag on fire is similarly pointless. if you shield the fire, you will get a punish as is. the PROBLEM lies in there being the 50/50 with two mutually exclusive options to cover them. it is essentially rewarding zelda even when her opponent reads her. it is supposed to be the players responsibility to teleport safely, not have the move make it safe for you. thats just absurd!
so you suggesting those two nerfs specifically that wouldn't really do anything is kind of weird. and then having the gall to suggest a BUFF on top of it to her best killing move is just like...I dont even know.
Do all zelda players think this way? Maybe we just need to get someone who doesnt play Zelda to design her to avoid all this
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
with characters like ike and marth around zelda needs no nerfs . i've even seen jiggs give zelda a hard time. lucario can get her with correct spacing. i got one vid i need to upload of me goin ham on Z
edit: if you'd play her you'd figure out how to beat her. thats what i do.
edit: if you'd play her you'd figure out how to beat her. thats what i do.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Right, the only chars who can even challenge her are ones who can get through nayrus, because it straight up shuts down a lot of chars close range options. Im glad you agree with me tank =p
Just use faeores intelligently and you dont even have to fight though
Just use faeores intelligently and you dont even have to fight though
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I would deny the first two but I doubt it would do much good compared to what little repertoire I have (at the moment) for what my observations actually are, so I'll just say yup to save time and further argument.I played Chu in that matchup just a few weeks ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I'm pretty sure I won. Can't check at the moment but the videos are on my youtube.
What exactly are you basing your observations on? Theorycrafting? Wifi friendlies? Because if you go by tournament data, Wolf and Ness are 2 of a handful of characters who have tourney wins under their belts. Wolf's win was particularly impressive.
Ike the best because of wi-fi. Fox second best by theorycrafting.
I'd really like more tournament results with top level Melee players, but I'm sure they will come in time.
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
its not all about spacing its about speed and accuracy too. sheiks fair and other quick airials can trade with nayru u only take 1% damage. how bout more endlag on ground nayru so zelda is punished for missing landcanceled nayru that could be another nerf. BTW after we done with zelda we should talk about ike nerfs
9Kplus1
Smash Master
Zelda sucks. Soooooooo free
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Zelda is #3 in Wi-Fi fool
Revven
FrankerZ
I haven't seen a Zelda win a tournament yet... nor have I seen enough footage to display to me, personally, she's the best in the game.
I see no reason to cry for changes when the evidence just isn't there to support your claims. Theorycrafting is all well and good, but it's not factual.
Like said a million times, we're not looking for feedback that involves, "Change this character!" We're watching. We need to visibly see the character pull off this stuff, both in tournament and actual matches.
Until I start seeing Zelda win tournaments consistently, or matches where she wins a ton against characters she wasn't good against in Melee and they're top level players, I'm not convinced by simple theorycraft.
The above is my opinion by the way, so don't mix my words with the PMBR as a whole. Where I say, "I", I literally mean me. When I say "we", I literally mean us. Not aimed at anyone specifically, just stating so.
Edit: And no, WiFi matches will not count as evidence.
I see no reason to cry for changes when the evidence just isn't there to support your claims. Theorycrafting is all well and good, but it's not factual.
Like said a million times, we're not looking for feedback that involves, "Change this character!" We're watching. We need to visibly see the character pull off this stuff, both in tournament and actual matches.
Until I start seeing Zelda win tournaments consistently, or matches where she wins a ton against characters she wasn't good against in Melee and they're top level players, I'm not convinced by simple theorycraft.
The above is my opinion by the way, so don't mix my words with the PMBR as a whole. Where I say, "I", I literally mean me. When I say "we", I literally mean us. Not aimed at anyone specifically, just stating so.
Edit: And no, WiFi matches will not count as evidence.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
There has to be a better synonym for facetious. My lexicon is suffering by the generally jovial nature of my posts.
Revven
FrankerZ
Nobody is getting nerfed or buffed here. Everyone is or should be playing the game, literally a lot, to figure things out instead of asking us to change things or "please look into how ridiculous this character is". Uh, that's your job right now. Show us the character is ridiculous through videos.its not all about spacing its about speed and accuracy too. sheiks fair and other quick airials can trade with nayru u only take 1% damage. how bout more endlag on ground nayru so zelda is punished for missing landcanceled nayru that could be another nerf. BTW after we done with zelda we should talk about ike nerfs
WiFi matches don't count, however.
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
I was just appealing to his want of changes semi-sarcasticly. you can't rely on a plaerys skill as a way to nerf a fighter. so long endlag on ground nayru for missing the cancel is irrelevent to nerf her thats why it was semi-sarcastic.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
Ganon's Utilt needs to be buffed. His crotch should be on fire throughout the entire move, and should have a hitbox with the strength of rest.
Also, Kirby probably needs to be buffed from how he was in Melee.
And one of Pikachu's taunts should hurt himself when facing a certain direction, as a reference to Pichu. Unless you guys have already done this, and I didn't notice because I never play Pikachu.
Also, Kirby probably needs to be buffed from how he was in Melee.
And one of Pikachu's taunts should hurt himself when facing a certain direction, as a reference to Pichu. Unless you guys have already done this, and I didn't notice because I never play Pikachu.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Stingers, it's Farore's Wind, not Faeores Wind.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
Since we're talking about who's the best character in the game, who do you guys think is the worst character?
Personally, I'm thinking Ganon's in contention for it. I mean, he has a slightly better recovery, but it's still as easy to predict and edgeguard as it was in Melee. He does have a better aerial sideB, but his ground sideB is a lot worse. His old one could be used to intercept aerials, and you could combo out of it. If you hit with this new one, which is harder because it doesn't intercept aerials anymore, you have to techchase, and I'm sure we all know how good Ganon is at that. As Magus said earlier, all Ganon can do is deny options from his opponents, he's really too slow to techchase. Ganon does have a DACUS, though, which is a cool improvement.
So to summarize he has a:
Slightly better recovery
Better aerial sideB
Worse ground sideB
Good DACUS
This might put him up to Melee IC's tier, but not high tier, which I understand is the goal for the characters in PM. Assuming all the other characters are at least high tier, as intended, then most of them would be better than Ganon. Of course, this doesn't mean Ganon isn't playable. He was playable in Melee, so even with no changes he'd still be playable in PM.
As for Zelda, watching Ryoko v Magus, Ryoko hardly ever uses Nayru's Love. So either it's not as good as you guys think it is, or Ryoko should start using it.
Personally, I'm thinking Ganon's in contention for it. I mean, he has a slightly better recovery, but it's still as easy to predict and edgeguard as it was in Melee. He does have a better aerial sideB, but his ground sideB is a lot worse. His old one could be used to intercept aerials, and you could combo out of it. If you hit with this new one, which is harder because it doesn't intercept aerials anymore, you have to techchase, and I'm sure we all know how good Ganon is at that. As Magus said earlier, all Ganon can do is deny options from his opponents, he's really too slow to techchase. Ganon does have a DACUS, though, which is a cool improvement.
So to summarize he has a:
Slightly better recovery
Better aerial sideB
Worse ground sideB
Good DACUS
This might put him up to Melee IC's tier, but not high tier, which I understand is the goal for the characters in PM. Assuming all the other characters are at least high tier, as intended, then most of them would be better than Ganon. Of course, this doesn't mean Ganon isn't playable. He was playable in Melee, so even with no changes he'd still be playable in PM.
As for Zelda, watching Ryoko v Magus, Ryoko hardly ever uses Nayru's Love. So either it's not as good as you guys think it is, or Ryoko should start using it.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
KishSquared is hosting a PM tourney in Indiana on July 7th! http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=323532
- Status