Project M Social Thread

[I R MarF]

Not very often. Next update: You Must Recover!

:V

Oh god...

ties noose

swallows pill

puts gun too head

cuts wrists

runs car in garage

jumps off cliff

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! ST0P T3LL1NG M3 THaNGS I ALRE4DY KN0WSZ!!!11!!!!

 

[JCaesar]

You can expect updates when they're ready.

 

[Untrust Us]

has a shine -> wavedash -> grab been done with fox in project M yet?

 

[shanus]

has a shine -> wavedash -> grab been done with fox in project M yet?

yes


10yes's

 

[Ulevo]

Question. Is there a reason Falco's fair has not be modified?

 

[I R MarF]

Question. Is there a reason Falco's fair has not be modified?

I actually liked Falco's vBrawl fair better than his melee one. Also, I think its important to have distinguished moves between Fox and Falco on some level to help declone similar characters.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Falco has a forward-air?

 

[GHNeko]

Falco has a forward-air?

Beat me to it. :mad:

 

[Sneak8288]

Brawl fair is beast with melee physics. That is all.

 

[Ulevo]

I only ask because I think it would actually be good to keep Falco's Brawl move animations, barring his shine, and just have them function like his melee counterpart. It adds character, and while the aim is to replicate melee, people weren't always impressed with how cloned some of the characters were. Right now, a lot of melee'd moves don't look natural. Especially that forward smash.

Looks good though.

 

[[TSON]]

Um, fair is melee with a different animation

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I only ask because I think it would actually be good to keep Falco's Brawl move animations, barring his shine, and just have them function like his melee counterpart. It adds character, and while the aim is to replicate melee, people weren't always impressed with how cloned some of the characters were. Right now, a lot of melee'd moves don't look natural. Especially that forward smash.

Looks good though.

While I personally would like to see what you're saying, as I've mentioned before, you can't jury rig many of the Brawl moves to function like the Melee moves. Even changing something like Falco's utilt to his Brawl version...well it still wouldn't function the same at all, even though they're both moves that hit up (nevermind trying to make Brawl nair even remotely function like Melee nair). For this project, it's important to retain the feel of the Melee characters as much as possible, so some moves will have to be changed even if doing so would give the characters their own distinct flavor.

I'm not saying we should get so anal-retentive that we change moves that function similarly or better than their Melee counterparts (here's looking at you, Falco jab/fair), but shine/utilt/nair/fsmash have certain properties that are so integrated into Melee Falco's playstyle that there's no way they could be any different from what they are now.

Um, fair is melee with a different animation

NONSENSE THERE IS NO KICKING IT DOESN'T PRESERVE THE FEEL OF MELEE THIS GAME IS RUINED FOREVER RAEG!

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Did Fox keep his rolling roundhouse fsmash, or do him and Falco have the same Melee style one?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

So far Fox has his Brawl animations for utilt/fsmash.

I think it's kinda cool that they did that. In a way it makes the moves not exact clones of one another while still having serving their normal (in a Melee sense) purpose.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Good. I was hoping they weren't being completely re-cloned when Fox's animations work just fine for him.

Also, Falco's Brawl jab is ridiculously good from what I played of P:M (Mind you, like 2 matches). He's keeping it?

 

[Starscream]

Did Fox keep his rolling roundhouse fsmash, or do him and Falco have the same Melee style one?

From the vid of Fox vs Falcon, it seems like Fox still has his Brawl Fsmash. That's one thing I love that you guys did though. Instead of just pasting Fox's animations for Utilt and Fsmash onto Falco you guys replicated the Melee animations. You guys planning on leaving Fox's animations the way they are or going the Melee route? Right now I think this is a good way to differentiate the two without functionally changing the moves.

That vid was bloody amazing but the SFX on the Shine has got to go. Don't like that at all. Here's hoping the next Dojo update is Ganon!

Edit: Oops, beaten on the Fox shebang.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Also, Falco's Brawl jab is ridiculously good from what I played of P:M (Mind you, like 2 matches). He's keeping it?

Word is that he'll be keeping that and the Brawl fair because they're strictly better than their Melee counterparts. That logic should be applied for most of the Brawl moves that stay (such as Ganon's murder choke).

And from watching the featured video...yeah I'm not a Melee purist by any means, but wow has that "zap!" sfx gotten annoying as hell x_x.

 

[Kaffei]

Is Marth's Wave dash long like Melee's

 

[kaizo13]

keep in mind that they are going one character at a time.....and i don't think they have really touched fox yet (animation wise)

so i wouldn't be surprised if they do "melee-fy" his animations once they get to him. I hope they do, i'm not a fan of Brawl animations. imo Melee animations just look "tougher" and better overall (that also goes for SFXs)

 

[SolarChimecho]

keep in mind that they are going one character at a time.....and i don't think they have really touched fox yet (animation wise)

so i wouldn't be surprised if they do "melee-fy" his animations once they get to him. I hope they do, i'm not a fan of Brawl animations. imo Melee animations just look "tougher" and better overall (that also goes for SFXs)

Brawl Fox and Melee Fox animation are very different. Fox went from looking like a beast and basass looking to being some hyper active cocky character(can't forget about the changes between Brawl Fox and Melee Fox face......)

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I really wouldn't say the animations look tougher, just that Melee Fox looks much more serious than Brawl Fox.

The barrel roll roundhouse on Melee Fox would've looked straight up bad ***, in my opinion.

As for utilt, I actually prefer the Brawl animation.

 

[GPDP]

so i wouldn't be surprised if they do "melee-fy" his animations once they get to him. I hope they do, i'm not a fan of Brawl animations. imo Melee animations just look "tougher" and better overall (that also goes for SFXs)

I doubt they will. In fact, I hope they don't.

Even if I agreed with your opinion on animations (and for the most part, I don't), I believe time is far better spent "Meleefying" the animations that absolutely NEED to be fixed for them to function like in Melee than changing trivial animations for the sole sake of Melee fanservice.

Fox's Brawl animations function just fine, thus they should be left alone and attention should instead be given to other characters needing reanimated moves.

In other words, I think the goal should be to limit animation changes only to those moves that cannot believably function as their Melee selves otherwise (when they are superior to their Brawl counterpart, that is). Anything else is needless fluff, and time that could be better spent on other crucial reanimations. Falco utilt change = good. Ganon run animation change = why bother?

 

[kaizo13]

I doubt they will. In fact, I hope they don't.

Even if I agreed with your opinion on animations (and for the most part, I don't), I believe time is far better spent "Meleefying" the animations that absolutely NEED to be fixed for them to function like in Melee than changing trivial animations for the sole sake of Melee fanservice.

Fox's Brawl animations function just fine, thus they should be left alone and attention should instead be given to other characters needing reanimated moves.

In other words, I think the goal should be to limit animation changes only to those moves that cannot believably function as their Melee selves otherwise (when they are superior to their Brawl counterpart, that is). Anything else is needless fluff, and time that could be better spent on other crucial reanimations. Falco utilt change = good. Ganon run animation change = why bother?

i have to disagree

as much as we all want to play this game now, there's no need to rush it. Every little detail matters (yes, even Ganon's run animation). I don't find it to be "needless stuff". I respect the pace that this project is taking, it makes it seem very professional.

why should we "limit" ourselves to anything?? if we have the ability to Melee-fy something, let's make it happen

 

[GPDP]

as much as we all want to play this game now, there's no need to rush it.

I'm not really saying it out of a desperate need to rush the developers to finish the project. All I'm saying is, I really don't see the point in Meleefying every animation and sound effect. I doubt few people really care as strongly as you do about them, which is why, save the rare bone given to purists here and there like Ganon's Melee run animation, I expect most of the Brawl animations which do not pose a problem to stay.

Every little detail matters (yes, even Ganon's run animation). I don't find it to be "needless stuff".

Assuming by "every little detail" you mean Meleefying all animations and sound effects... why? Who says every little detail really matters for this project to be successful at fulfilling its goals?

Fact is, if a change doesn't make the game play more like Melee, it is objectively unnecessary and unneeded. It's only really a handful of people, you included, that are pushing hardcore for Melee aesthetics to match the Melee gameplay, as if the two are inexorably linked, which they are not... and if they are to you, then I'm sorry, but I find that to be pretty shallow. Project M Ganon will be pure **** in digital form with or without his old man run. Adding his Falcon clone run IS nothing more than needless fanservice, even if it looks better. He did NOT actually need it to be Meleefied, and the developers should not be obligated to replicate it and other Melee animations for the game to be deemed complete. If they do replicate an animation where it was not needed, it should be because they voluntarily want to.

And just to make it clear, it's not even the actual unnecessary changes that bother me (hell, I actually think the new Ganon run looks pretty cool). What I'm opposed to is the purist mentality that leads people to keep making demands that really are nothing but unnecessary fluff, all while adding extra workload on the developers, which I will address below. For instance, I keep hearing hypothetical horror tales of Melee vets refusing to even look at the game because of something so superficial as sound effects or an fsmash animation, to which I say any such vets who would miss out on such an awesome project because it doesn't look or move 100% like Melee, even if it plays almost identically, are shallow purists who can keep playing Melee for all I care.

I respect the pace that this project is taking, it makes it seem very professional.

Indeed, I also respect the pace they are taking with this project, and their attention to detail is impeccable. But they are also human beings who at various points have things IRL to do, so when I say they shouldn't bother so much with needless changes, I do so because I know lengthy projects, even those taken at a slow pace, can lead to burnout. The best way to prevent this is to stick to the primary goals as clearly as possible, and try to avoid changes with little more justification than "I think it just looked cooler in Melee," especially in cases when most people agree some animations are fine the way they are.

In any case, the developers know what they're doing with animations for the most part, and though I wish they wouldn't stress themselves so much with unnecessary aesthetic changes, I understand some will be made anyway, so I won't complain much from now on when they happen. Just recognize the opposite will also be the case for many of the aesthetic changes you want to see happen.

 

[kaizo13]

geez i didn't expect an essay to come out of that (lol)

but hey man, in the end the devs are gonna do what they feel is best and i'm gonna play this game either way sooo... xD

sooo yea.....Go Project M!

 

[jalued]

alot of the complaints about current SFX and GFX are valid though

2 very obvious examples are:

falco and fox's shine (both SFX and GFX)

and marth's sword SFX (which is horrendous compared to his melee version)

the feel of the game is not just physical, its the entire package. If the SFX is bad, then it will impact on the game as a whole and make it less appealing. Try playing Marth in Melee and then in Brawl and then say to me that the Brawl SFX doesn't annoy you

 

[GPDP]

alot of the complaints about current SFX and GFX are valid though

2 very obvious examples are:

falco and fox's shine (both SFX and GFX)

and marth's sword SFX (which is horrendous compared to his melee version)

the feel of the game is not just physical, its the whole experience. If the SFX is bad, then it will impact on the game as a whole and make it less appealing. Try playing Marth in Melee and then in Brawl and then say to me that the Brawl SFX doesn't annoy you

That's still subjective though. Annoying as the sounds may be, do the characters not play very much like they should?

Nevertheless, I am in agreement. I never had a problem with the shine SFX in Brawl until I watched the Falco video on SmashMods. Due to the nature of Project M, shining will be far more prevalent, making the noise quite grating.

As for Marth's, it doesn't really annoy me so much as there is so little difference between tipped and non-tipped hits, which is pretty stupid. They sound way too alike.

 

[jalued]

That's still subjective though. Annoying as the sounds may be, do the characters not play very much like they should?

Nevertheless, I am in agreement. I never had a problem with the shine SFX in Brawl until I watched the Falco video on SmashMods. Due to the nature of Project M, shining will be far more prevalent, making the noise quite grating.

As for Marth's, it doesn't really annoy me so much as there is so little difference between tipped and non-tipped hits, which is pretty stupid. They sound way too alike.

With marth to me, the difference is that in brawl its a "swish" and in melee its a "bam". It just sounds lame in brawl

 

[Knightcrawler]

I'm with GPDP on this one. It's not necessary and perhaps not even wanted to change every single animations back to what they were in Melee. Most are close enough and will function identically if their properties are changed.

However, if the animations are different and it affects play, go ahead and change it. If Link swings his sword a bit further out and lower in Melee than Brawl, you could have the same hitbox regardless but it wouldn't look right and it'd make play seem unnatural. But the animation for Link pulling out or throwing his bomb, for instance? I don't know why that'd need to change.

Besides that, Brawl isn't as good *competitively* as Melee, but it does have some advantages. I'm willing to bet a lot of the Brawl animations are nicer than the Melee ones.

 

[jalued]

Besides that, Brawl isn't as good *competitively* as Melee, but it does have some advantages. I'm willing to bet a lot of the Brawl animations are nicer than the Melee ones.

Thats the thing though, "nicer" isnt really what melee wanted. It went for the gritty, brawl went for the flashy and fancy. In a fast paced hardcore game i feel gritty is far more suited. But yes some brawl animations are good, such as fire and ice etc

 

[Bero]

I saw Project M Dojo. Awesome. Match speed seems to be increased than last video.

I'm going to make a topic in this community http://smacom2.mysns.tv/.
There are many good Japanese melee players.
Is it good timing to advertise P:M in Japanese in earnest? If the team needs quite a lot of time, I won't make a P:M topic until it gets more closer to completion.

 

[Rikana]

I think the Falco footage is a good preview of Project M for the Japanese melee players. Just let them know that the project itself is still quite far from done and a lot has been done since it first started.

There are Japanese players that enjoy Brawl+, so I'm sure there will be players that enjoy the preview of Project M.

 

[Ulevo]

Stuff.

That's fair, and I can agree. I'm just saying that some of the animations in Brawl do look quite nice for the character, and if applicable to the Melee style, should probably be kept to add aesthetic value. If possible of course.

That vid was bloody amazing but the SFX on the Shine has got to go. Don't like that at all. Here's hoping the next Dojo update is Ganon!

Edit: Oops, beaten on the Fox shebang.

It's not quite the same is it? But I think it's still okayish. My gripe about the shine was that it looked choppy, like the whole screen froze for a brief moment whenever the shine connected. Melee's shines, and to a lesser extent, Brawl Fox's shine, were much more seamless.

Stuff.

I largely disagree here. I was a Marth main in Melee, and although Brawl Marth has his fair share of gameplay issues that turn me off of him, his SFX on his sword swipes are just horrid in comparison. People don't just play characters they fight competitively viable and mend with their playstyle; people like characters that sound or look good. I personally avoid specific characters for this reason. Ganon is a perfect example.

It's the entire package. That's my take.

 

[Rikana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPbGGgPhECI

How sexy is that intro for a melee video?

 

[CountKaiser]

Something that just occured to me.

The teching window in Melee was 20 frames, last I heard. In B+ it's 15 frames. Will this get changed?

 

[Shell]

Okay, on animations:

@Ulevo: The very first thing I tried to do for Falco's F-smash was to take the new animation and make it match the movement and hitbox data of the old F-smash.

I spent probably close to 10 hours trying to accomplish this, and in the end it had to be modified so much that it just didn't look good anymore. For example, bawrl f-smash doesn't start moving forwards until 10-12 frames into the animation (melee starts moving on frame 1), and it ends without as far of a follow-through (which is a balancing point for the move). Then there's the fact that the wings only make up the first few frames of the swing, and then it's just the head (compared to a disjointed foot). These things are essential to both the feel and the application of the move, and ultimately I just couldn't capture those things in any way that was satisfying... so I just rebuilt the old one from scratch.

The reason that I didn't clone it back onto Fox is that the F-smash for Fox isn't as important to him as it is to Falco. The slight difference in movement timing and location doesn't change the applications of the move so much for him.

Regarding Ganon's run: The very first thing Melee Ganon players say about Ganon is that he runs like a pregnant woman -- what happened to the muscular beast that I main? Our largets target audience is probably people that already enjoy Melee, and frankly the vast majority of them hate the preggorz run, myself included. Non-functional animation changes are usually not done due to time constraints, but this was an exception since it dramatically changed the feel of the entire character.

 

[SonioNineteen]

Its it possible to make a stage bigger such as Final Destination or Battlefield

and is luigi special fall gonna be like Mario's or is it gonna be like brawl's

I think Luigi Special fall is gonna look silly after a air dodge.

 

[Shell]

Stage size adjustments (and custom stages) are WIP

Luigi special fall is like Mario's -- the WD looked ******** with the bawrl animation, as you guessed.

 

[Ulevo]

Just wanted to say it's really great you guys are being really attentive to all the questions and comments being posted here. While we don't have access to a release yet, it keeps us informed.

 

[shanus]

Just wanted to say it's really great you guys are being really attentive to all the questions and comments being posted here. While we don't have access to a release yet, it keeps us informed.

Just also want to comment on the hitlag on shine.

For some reason, I don't remember it being as large on video as I see in game on my wii. Might be just the latest version of falco where camelot did some animation editing on it where it looks better or hitlag being slightly too high.

Regardless, we are happy to answer questions.

Also, for all characters wavelands that look weird, they were replaced with the Heavyland animation. That means luigi does not slide upside down on his head when landing from a wavedash, which was hilarious when I first made it, but not the case now.