Project M Social Thread

[kaizo13]

Most air dodges currently last too long to be able to grab the ledge from the same general height backwards.

Above the ledge, sure you could possibly do the above (but then why would you if you have a Side B recovery or a good Up B?)

At the same height as the ledge it's not really doable.

Below the ledge... yeah I don't think I need to explain why air dodging backwards from below the ledge won't work LOL.

This is all my experience of course, I don't know frame data and etc.

Oh and I'm not talking about Sonic in this post.

mostly agree, but i think the possibility of reverse AD ledge grabs adds unnecessary options....like in certain situations making it possible to be set to edge-guard from the ledge faster (and safer), which would be a reason to reverse AD to ledge instead of using side-b/up-b recovery. see Snake

And yeah, backwards ledge grab isn't going anywhere. It does more good than bad if you ask me.

not trying to get rid of backwards ledge grab.
but it should only work from a well spaced up-b or side-b.....not while already in special fall

 

[leelue]

There are plenty of instances where you might want to airdodge well above the stage and then come down to the ledge. Against snake's mortar, perhaps. Or if that falco is about to come up and spike you, airdodging and going to the ledge is a viable option.

To compound what Ecks said, the word "fixed" (and by extension "should be") is a loaded term that implies that being different is a problem. You know, as opposed to different.

 

[I R MarF]

It dumbs it down by adding options for the character offstage?
I think my post did a good job of showing how it makes it more deep.

Couldn't you argue that you are also losing depth since you no longer have to face the ledge during recovery? To elaborate, you are losing another facet of correct recovering that players would have to learn.

I am also generally not a fan of making offstage games across the board safer/ giving more recovery mix up options to the entire cast. No matter how subtle it is.

Also, aren't backwards ledge grabs larger than forward ones?

 

[MaxThunder]

^^They want to fix that...

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

It's not like backwards ledge grabbing makes things super easy and uncompetitive. If anything, it helps. No reason to remove it.

Besides, wouldn't getting rid of that ultimately make edgeguarding/edgehogging a lot harder and more complicated to do since people have gotten used to doing it with the backwards ledge grabbing cause of Brawl? Sure it can be done other ways, but not quite as quickly and efficiently.

 

[leelue]

I wouldn't use brawl as an argument for anything's inclusion, if only because of the deserved sentiment that word evokes.

 

[I R MarF]

It's not like backwards ledge grabbing makes things super easy and uncompetitive. If anything, it helps. No reason to remove it.

Besides, wouldn't getting rid of that ultimately make edgeguarding/edgehogging a lot harder and more complicated to do since people have gotten used to doing it with the backwards ledge grabbing cause of Brawl? Sure it can be done other ways, but not quite as quickly and efficiently.

I'm pretty sure the target audience is Melee, not Brawl. And like I said, correct recovering and giving yourself space so you can grab the ledge facing forward is a skill, albeit, a very minor one, but its still something that players have to learn.

Offstage edge guarding and edge hogging are also perhaps two of the most rewarding techniques in the game. Simplifying those two strategies has no justification; especially since edge hogging was just made HARDER to do with reduced ledge occupancy window. Why contradict that change?

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

I wouldn't use brawl as an argument for anything's inclusion, if only because of the deserved sentiment that word evokes.

I see where you're getting at, but that's not the point. - -

Let's not be close-minded here, people. >>

I'm not so much trying to use Brawl as an argument, but the fact of how well it's settled in already and the fact that it doesn't hurt or break anything.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Hey guys, I've been brainstorming ways to make a new texture/model hack for Skyworld:M once the demo comes out. I'm wondering what people think of this idea:

[COLLAPSE="big picture"]

[/COLLAPSE]
This is just a rough mockup; I haven't started building the actual stage yet. I'll be waiting for the demo to release so I can get the actual measurements and collision data of Skyworld:M so you could use them interchangeably. No guarantees that the finished product would look anything like this or even that I'll ever complete the stage. But I want to get some feedback on my ideas, even if they're only future dreams =)

Spoiler

I shouldn't have to say this, but disclaimer: I am not in the PMBR

 

[I R MarF]

I see where you're getting at, but that's not the point. - -

Let's not be close-minded here, people. >>

I'm not so much trying to use Brawl as an argument, but the fact of how well it's settled in already and the fact that it doesn't hurt or break anything.

Settled in well? This project itself is a statement as to how disappointed much of the fanbase is with Brawl and how people want a true sequel so bad they are willing to make one. It can be thanked for making this project possible and then blasted again for forcing the P:M team to do this.

 

[Yeroc]

I've been in favor of backwards grabbing since before Brawl+ died. Even Gimpy, who originally wanted to remove the reverse grabbing, has changed his mind after playing around with it. Play around with it some before dismissing it.

 

[drsusredfish]

Hey guys, I've been brainstorming ways to make a new texture/model hack for Skyworld:M once the demo comes out. I'm wondering what people think of this idea:

[COLLAPSE="big picture"]

[/COLLAPSE]
This is just a rough mockup; I haven't started building the actual stage yet. I'll be waiting for the demo to release so I can get the actual measurements and collision data of Skyworld:M so you could use them interchangeably. No guarantees that the finished product would look anything like this or even that I'll ever complete the stage. But I want to get some feedback on my ideas, even if they're only future dreams =)

Spoiler

I shouldn't have to say this, but disclaimer: I am not in the PMBR

cool i like the idea but what you gona do about the thick base?

 

[hotdogturtle]

Make the platform thicker, obviously...

 

[I R MarF]

I've been in favor of backwards grabbing since before Brawl+ died. Even Gimpy, who originally wanted to remove the reverse grabbing, has changed his mind after playing around with it. Play around with it some before dismissing it.

I don't have a problem with reverse grab as long as it stays in brawl and on a few select characters where it belongs.

Reverse grab during special fall also sounds dumb.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I like the texture. Maybe you could make the treetop platforms bounce like in Onett?

 

[hotdogturtle]

No, I will be making a reskin of the existing stage and that's all. The leaf platforms will behave just like the default cloud platforms.

 

[Jonny Westside]

Speaking of stages, how about that Hanenbow? O_O

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I see then. Will you be adding any special effects?

Edit: Hanenbow for OP

 

[I R MarF]

Speaking of stages, how about that Hanenbow? O_O

Lol it would be kind of funny if there was a contest to see who could make that stage as unplayable as possible without using hazards or making it so you die instantly. For example, it would be hilarious if the entire stage was just one extremely tiny leaf that barely one character could stand on. And then as a joke, it was added to the list of viable P:M counterpicks.

 

[Yeroc]

I don't have a problem with reverse grab as long as it stays in brawl and on a few select characters where it belongs.

That's awfully arbitrary. Melee goggles are useful, but you shouldn't let them blind you to superior alternatives. At least until you've thoroughly evaluated them.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I'm not sure what I'll do about the small details yet. The hard part will be actually making and testing the stage, since I don't have a laptop that I can use next to my Wii...

I was mainly looking for people's views on the general look of the thing, and their thoughts on other stages that could be aesthetically remodeled. Maybe something like Temple:M could be fun to work with afterwards.

 

[I R MarF]

That's awfully arbitrary. Melee goggles are useful, but you shouldn't let them blind you to superior alternatives. At least until you've thoroughly evaluated them.

I just fail to see how reverse ledge grabs are a necessary addition when their only purpose seems to give characters more recovery options or not make players learn they have to face the ledge to recover. Both of which are largely unneeded.

Btw, I like the Melee goggles metaphor

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Maybe make reverse ledge grab character specific. Like in Melee, make it so that the spinning up-Bs grab backwards and all.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The problem would still exist that the ledges are grabbed backwards when in free fall, instead of just when sweetspotted.

 

[kaizo13]

I have nothing against reverse ledge grabbing as long as its sweetspotted

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Marf, you can't call it an "addition" when it was in the original game this is modded from to begin with. - -

And people's opinion on Brawl is irrelevant. Everyone being able to reverse ledge grab like they already can is perfectly fine.

Making the game challenging is one thing, but there's no reason to make it needlessly hard by taking something out that should've been in from the start and helps thing be more enjoyable and gives more options, hence why it was added.

 

[leelue]

Yeroc should post more often.
Stop having a "life" or something

 

[Yeroc]

It's mostly just a job. But soon it will be school and such again.

 

[9Kplus1]

You have a life and thus cannot post as often as we do. No johns.

 

[Strong Badam]

Reverse grab during special fall also sounds dumb.

This is usually why unless it'd take a lot of development time, we try things out instead of dismissing things because they "sound dumb." Some of our best ideas initially sounded dumb, like taking on this 3+ year development time beast, and look at us now.

 

[leelue]

I just fail to see how reverse ledge grabs are a necessary addition when their only purpose seems to give characters more recovery options or not make players learn they have to face the ledge to recover. Both of which are largely unneeded.

Btw, I like the Melee goggles metaphor

If player X has to learn how to decide between option A and option B (where neither option is strictly better in this situation), as well as learn how to do both proficiently, then player Y has to learn how to counter both tactics. Perhaps simultaneously.
If player X only is allowed to learn how to do option B, then you lose all of the depth. Player Y only has to learn how to do one thing, and player X only has to learn how to perfect 1 thing. This is a loss of depth.

You would still have to learn how to recover correctly, it's just the definition of "correctly" has expanded to make things more dynamic. Forcing a player to do something "the right way" (an arbitrary, grandfathered in right way at that) makes it impossible to develop playstyles and mindgames, making the game less of a game by strict definition and more of two opposing sets of solitaire. You test one persons ability to do exactly and only one thing and you test another person's ability to do exactly and only one thing. They just happen to be "interacting" in the loosest sense of the word.

Add onto that the many character specific moves that you'd lose;
*Ganon/captain edgehogging by using an onstage forward B
*Or Zelda with an up B
*The walljump tech I explained earlier
*DK using an UpB defensively and retreating to the ledge
*Marth/luigi using a reverse UpB from the ledge to kill a recovering opponent
and you undeniably lose aspects of the game that make the game interesting.


Don't look at anything as an addition. Look at it in a vacuum.
You'll make much better decisions that way.

 

[phurgawtin]

I'm in favor of backwards edge grabbing.

 

[robosteven]

I'm in favor of backwards edge grabbing.

Specifics, specifics, specifics.

Demo 1 backwards edge grabbing IMO was PERFECT (I mean, not SPECIFICALLY, like specific frames and distance, but in concept). I thought that backwards edge grabbing only working when you're in your falling animation (after an airdodge or up-b) was great, and it especially helped for certain characters that couldn't normally make it back on the stage facing backwards in melee with their up-b (Marth's comes to mind).

edit: run-on sentence, sorry. It's late and I'm really tired.

 

[Yeroc]

That hasn't changed. I would still like to be able to find and alter the grab boxes that affect the space behind characters, but we agreed long ago that only during special fall would be the policy we went with.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Forcing a player to do something "the right way" (an arbitrary, grandfathered in right way at that) makes it impossible to develop playstyles and mindgames, making the game less of a game by strict definition and more of two opposing sets of solitaire. You test one persons ability to do exactly and only one thing and you test another person's ability to do exactly and only one thing. They just happen to be "interacting" in the loosest sense of the word.

You got a problem with Puyo Pop?

 

[Shadic]

Nobody who dislikes Puyo Pop is allowed to play Project M.

 

[9Kplus1]

What the hell is Puyo Pop?

 

[Shadic]

This is why you're lame, man.

 

[leelue]

You got a problem with Puyo Pop?

Whats that?

 

[Samus-T]

So I'm really hoping for a character conformation tomorrow. Considering Tomorrow is the show me your news interview