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Project M Social Thread

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kaizo13

kaizo13

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i don't want it for the model/texture, i want it for the ledges

i swear yo, the pmbr has gone soft in the recovery department.....there was no issue with battlefield ledges in Melee and now, we have reverse ledge grabbing on ALL up-b's and air dodges....gimme a break
 
GHNeko

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kaizo13 said:
i don't want it for the model/texture, i want it for the ledges

i swear yo, the pmbr has gone soft in the recovery department.....there was no issue with battlefield ledges in Melee and now, we have reverse ledge grabbing on ALL up-b's and air dodges....gimme a break
Click to expand...

*****.

game design 101.

take it.

the reasoning behind reverse ledge grabbing at the APEX of special fall, is that why can certain characters do it, and not all of them? hence why we chose to make it universal.

and saying there was no issues with melee bf ledges, is dumb.

there are plenty of people who dislike the ledges because they're bad. in melee, however, people had to deal with it due to lack of stages that could replace bf, lack of stages overall, and lack of hackability.
 
Xebenkeck

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GHNeko said:
Those aspects create imbalances, yeah, and as a result they can be used to balance characters in various ways.

Want a glass canon who has amazing offense, and bad defense? then nerf his defensive options, not his recovery, and then give him good offense. if he has bad rolls, tech rolls, spot dodges, and shields, even if his recovery is okay, getting hit will still leave him in bad situations on a regular basis.

it's a type of balancing tool.

like how in traditional fighters, characters with an abundance of multihit moves suffer from damage scaling more than characters who have many single hit moves. or how some characters have low HP to offset their high offensive capabilities vs characters who have high HP to offset their huge size/huge hurtboxes and inherent weakness to instant overheads.
Click to expand...
Can be used to balance characters, but there is no logic to most things that are different.

-is there logic that Zelda standing grab was like 12 frames in melee, it's not like her grabs are OMG SO GOOD.
-Was there logic to ness and Lucas having 40 frame grab-releases, marth having 25, and bowser Dk having 20?
-Why was G&W shield horrible in melee, was he seen as too f'n good.
-Your explaination to peach air-dodge makes some sense but thats the answer to balancing her floating? How about making her aerials not as ridiculous, oh wait brawl did that and gave her a ****ty air-dodge, and look what happened to her.
-Is there a reason Jigglypuff shield kills her, was she seen as a god send in 64 that she needed to be capital punished for blocking?
-Samus's rolls were bad because...........
-Falcon's tech in melee was used to balance him right? right? I don't think so.
-Again Falco, Link, DDD spot dodges were god-sends in Brawl for what reason again?
-Why is Samus tether grapple so much worse then Links even though they are the same function?
and so on...

As you can see there is absolutly no logic to ANY of these arbitrary differences, to say they were intentionally designed those ways to balance the roster is not true. These changes do the exact opposite of balance they create horrendous imbalances among the cast.

If they are to be different there needs to be reason to it, and a very clear reason to it. Something like "these characters are light, therefore they ALL have faster rolls to help them evade damage better."

Sorry for the late response btw.

EDIT: you also just said the reason RE grabs were made universal was because only a few characters could do it. See even you guys saw the IMBALANCE that created when they weren't universal.
 
kaizo13

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i know why reverse ledge grabbing was made universal, no need to explain to me....i was simply implying it's easier to recover now.

but i still don't agree with any reasons u have given on why melee battlefield shouldn't be added .

"melee bf ledges are far worse than P:M BF ledges"
"many people dislike the ledges because they're bad"

sound like opinions to me....i think replacing the words "bad" and "worse" with "different" makes more sense
 
Stevo

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the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ledge invincibility decay.

It would affect nothing except abuse of ledge stalling, as far as I can tell.

I'm a little indifferent about changing invinibility from respawning. Most of the time people just run to the ledge (in melee anyway). I do like that you can get nearly a full charge on things like DK punch and Samus charge shot, though.
Doesn't really need changing I guess.

Also, what is ledge occupancy set at currently in whatever build testers use?


oh, and on the topic of battlefield, I used to despise melee battlefield ledges, but I got over it. I think it might be cool to include both, but I don't think it is necessary. I think P:M battlefield is basically the standard on which all neutrals should be compared. Melee Battlefield ledges DO offer different advantages for different characters. For example, Sheik and Pikachu are nearly unaffected by that type of ledge.
 
Vigilante

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I actually would like Melee battlefield selectable. One more Melee stage would not hurt, and just because the ledges are small and disadvantage soem characters does not mean it should be considered illegal. Same with Lylat Cruise.

We'll just have to disagree on that, Neko.

I'm speaking personally, not for the BR itself. If we do end up putting Melee BF in without removing Brawl BF, I'd be like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JzIqrD4QXwg#t=26s
 
Shadic

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A possibility could be changing Brawl Battlefield to a different layout and including Melee's Battlefield. Although personally I prefer Brawl's functionality and Melee's aesthetic.

Xebenkeck said:
Can be used to balance characters, but there is no logic to most things that are different.
Click to expand...
Welcome to game design. Good game design rarely makes sense when you look at things practically. It's rarely logical. Compare Luigi's Dair to Mario's. Or Nair. Same move, different angle.

And slow characters can have fast attributes, just like fast characters can have slow attributes. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.
 
GP&B

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At least when it comes to fighting games, it can be a matter of experimentation. Things are allowed to be nonsensical. However, there's almost a universal demand for consistency, which people often confuse far too often with realism. Yes, double jumping is unrealistic. However, using "unrealistic" as a reason for justifying why a character would be allowed to have a double jump that goes from the platform on Final Destination to outside of the upper camera's view would be wrong. This is defined as an inconsistency as it rather breaks the limits to what people expect out of general attributes.

Meh, I wish I could write it out better than that, but you can sort of get the idea.

EDIT: Suspension of disbelief is the phrase I'm looking for.
 
GHNeko

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Xebenkeck said:
Can be used to balance characters, but there is no logic to most things that are different.

[...]

As you can see there is absolutly no logic to ANY of these arbitrary differences, to say they were intentionally designed those ways to balance the roster is not true. These changes do the exact opposite of balance they create horrendous imbalances among the cast.

If they are to be different there needs to be reason to it, and a very clear reason to it. Something like "these characters are light, therefore they ALL have faster rolls to help them evade damage better."
Click to expand...
lol dude. all i said is that these things can be used to balance. i didnt give reasons as to why or if it was intentional or not lmao.

kaizo13 said:
"melee bf ledges are far worse than P:M BF ledges"
"many people dislike the ledges because they're bad"

sound like opinions to me....i think replacing the words "bad" and "worse" with "different" makes more sense
Click to expand...
except that the ledges ARE worse LMAO.

what are you talking about.

okay let me specify.

when it comes to recovery, melee bf's ledges are worse.

it's not really an opinion either. the ledges are tangibly harder to recover on.
 
GHNeko

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KingClubber said:
So Neko....has the P:M Podcast died? It's been 2 maybe 3 weeks since the last one, and today is Friday......(Do not start singing that Song).
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I just havnt had the time actually.

Vigilante said:
I actually would like Melee battlefield selectable. One more Melee stage would not hurt, and just because the ledges are small and disadvantage soem characters does not mean it should be considered illegal. Same with Lylat Cruise.

We'll just have to disagree on that, Neko.

I'm speaking personally, not for the BR itself. If we do end up putting Melee BF in without removing Brawl BF, I'd be like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JzIqrD4QXwg#t=26s
Click to expand...

I think the stages would be too similar at that point, to warrent melee bf.
 
Shadic

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Gamedominator06 said:
At least when it comes to fighting games, it can be a matter of experimentation. Things are allowed to be nonsensical. However, there's almost a universal demand for consistency, which people often confuse far too often with realism.
Click to expand...
But how much is consistent, really?

We've got attack startup, duration, strength, varying. Run speed varies, jump height and startup varies, double-jump height varies, jump AMOUNT varies, friction varies, ledge-jumps vary, so does momentum.

Why shouldn't rolls? Spotdodges? Techrolls? Other than perhaps Samus, nobody has truly 100% awful rolls, spotdodges, etc. Nor does anybody have jaw-breakingly amazing ones.
 
Xebenkeck

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Shadic I'm more reffering to universal mechanics of the game and not so much moves.

Moves should be different. Straight up.

But certain mechanics should be conistent as GD06 said. If I suggest to you that DDD should be a ground character and he should not be allowed to jump. You would call me an idiot and ignore that suggestion.

So why are certain things in smash like that though, like I said with certain examples. Why does Zelda, a character like any other non-tether grabber, get a grab(a universal mechanic) that is horrendously inconsistent in comparison to the rest of the cast?

And run-speed, fall-speed, gravity, walking speed, weight are attributes of the character again i'm not reffering to these. Again these should be different. Straight up.

Things like footstools, teching, rolling, side-stepping, to a extent grabbing, jumping, air dodgeing, turning around, tripping, throwing items, grab release, clanking, these are mechanics im refering to.
 
Stevo

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the problem with Zelda's grab being so bad, is that she is poor in many aspects.

If falco had DK's side-step, he would still be great, as he can work around it.

I think, for the most part, it keeps the game interesting when things are not universal, even if it is just a few characters that are different from the norm.
 
GP&B

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Shadic said:
But how much is consistent, really?

We've got attack startup, duration, strength, varying. Run speed varies, jump height and startup varies, double-jump height varies, jump AMOUNT varies, friction varies, ledge-jumps vary, so does momentum.

Why shouldn't rolls? Spotdodges? Techrolls? Other than perhaps Samus, nobody has truly 100% awful rolls, spotdodges, etc. Nor does anybody have jaw-breakingly amazing ones.
Click to expand...
Well, again I couldn't really explain it well. I meant consistent in that it's believable. But there's a limit between what is acceptable and what comes off as completely stupid like how Melee Ness's grab range is beyond below average. It's completely horrible.

I was mostly trying to make a point against the use of "realistic", not necessarily variety. I suppose I've been mostly confusing though.
 
`dazrin

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Spam_arrows said:
btw just so you all know this song when we sing it at tournaments.

MEW2KING/MARTH THEME SONG! EVERYONE SING ALONG!

I wanna be the very best
That M2K almost was
To get grabs is my real test
to chain them is my cause~
I will travel across Dream land, searching far and wide~
Each character to find a way to kill them off the side~

MEW2KING!

It's chu and me, I know it's my destiny! -MEW2KING!

ohhhhh I'll be just like ken, with the edge I must defend! -MEW2KING!

A John so true!

our fanboys will pull us through. you teach me and I'll teach you

MEW! 2! KING!

Gotta gimp 'em all, GOTTA GIMP 'EM ALL!

MEW2KING!

~Spam_arrows & Boat mode(he did the first 2 lines.)

life is great...oh and a stream!
Click to expand...
Well, I sang it. Not super high quality, but I gave it a shot just cuz, why not? lol

don't flame me too hardd :awesome:

http://soundcloud.com/xdazee/marth-themesong/s-0pn1m

edit: probably actually not the right place to put this... i'll take it off if so
 
`dazrin

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LOL its not really anything to do with the demo, someone just said like a few pages back that someone should sing that and someone said that if someone did they'd put background music to it and the marth boards would have a themesong.. so i did it for fun lol

dont hate :( just wanted to help out the community in a fun way

btw your avatar fits your reaction perfectly LOL
 
ph00tbag

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Xebenkeck said:
Can be used to balance characters, but there is no logic to most things that are different.
Click to expand...
Incidentally, almost all of these things are being, or have been, addressed in P:M. Criticizing Sakurai's game balance decisions is A-OK in my book, because most people on this site do it on an hourly basis, and about 99.9% of the complaints are wholly and entirely valid. But attributing those mistakes to the P:M team is kind of silly, especially considering that some members of the team agree with you, and they even debate a lot of the things you have to complain about.
 
Shadic

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Xebenkeck said:
So why are certain things in smash like that though, like I said with certain examples. Why does Zelda, a character like any other non-tether grabber, get a grab(a universal mechanic) that is horrendously inconsistent in comparison to the rest of the cast?
Click to expand...
Because it makes her deal poorly with pressure. Straight up. She's amazing mid-range and can annoy long-range. And she can punish spacies better than just about any character in the game.

Xebenkeck said:
And run-speed, fall-speed, gravity, walking speed, weight are attributes of the character again i'm not reffering to these. Again these should be different. Straight up.
Things like footstools, teching, rolling, side-stepping, to a extent grabbing, jumping, air dodgeing, turning around, tripping, throwing items, grab release, clanking, these are mechanics im refering to.
Click to expand...
But what makes those mechanics any different than the rest? They're all things that add flavor to a character and can be used to buff/nerf their opportunities in certain situations. What we've got hear is over-eagerness to differentiate.
 
MaxThunder

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`daze said:
Well, I sang it. Not super high quality, but I gave it a shot just cuz, why not? lol

don't flame me too hardd :awesome:

http://soundcloud.com/xdazee/marth-themesong/s-0pn1m

edit: probably actually not the right place to put this... i'll take it off if so
Click to expand...
hm.. now it would be nice f you could record all the "mew2king"s by themselves and the rest of the lyrics without them... would be easier for you to keep consistent rythm, and easier for me to put music on it...

the quality is ok enough though=)...

@Jedi: lol... got a little high recording volume there=)...
 
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