Project M Social Thread

[GHNeko]

People think that arbitrary tech skill barriers are always a bad thing.

Sometimes making a game harder, execution wise is a good thing.

lol but w/e.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I play Guilty Gear.

Tech skill barriers can make games amazingly fun when done right.

 

[Rikana]

As of 9/19/10, bringing up Manual L-Canceling vs. Automatic L-Canceling is an infractable offense.

In otherwords. Because melee.

 

[GHNeko]

Tech skill / execution barriers also make fightan games extremely rewarding and very immersive.

They reward dedication and practice and show progress which everyone loves to see.

 

[NeoZ]

I play Guilty Gear.

Tech skill barriers can make games amazingly fun when done right.

You what?
Didn't you say some time ago that your hands weren't fast enough for spacies or something?
EDIT:

And Ulevo, some of us just don't have the time to dedicate to learning techskill, so Brawl works much better. I'm actually physically incapable of maining Fox (well I could, but I'd be terribad), my hands CAN NOT work fast enough, combination of mental and physical disabilities there. And what with Project: M seemingly dedicated to introducing techskill barriers to characters who had much smaller ones in Melee (see: Zelda), not much I can do. So I can either play Melee and be doomed to be bad (or play Jiggs, who I don't really enjoy), play Brawl and deal with random BS (I main Dedede, you have no idea how frustrating it is [or do you?] to pull a Gordo instead of a waddle, thus completely missing because it's trajectory is different, random tripping, the BS that is Yoshi's Island Brawl, etc), or play Brawl Minus and not have a scene to compete in. SF and other traditional fighting games are mostly out of the question because the whole being unable to have techskill + not actually enjoying them.

And now you're playing GG.
You've come a long way, dirt.

 

[jalued]

I'm not opposed to having L-cancel as a sort of tech-barrier to get into the game, but I do have one question: is there any reason ever to -not- Lcancel?

There is only 1 reason that i know of and its something to do with peach's fair. Other than that, no. You should always L-cancel

 

[Rikana]

Dirt isn't playing spacies.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

You what?
Didn't you say some time ago that your hands weren't fast enough for spacies or something?
EDIT:
And now you're playing GG.
You've come a long way, dirt.

Or he's lying.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Didn't think talking about the white flash would spark a convo.

Back to what Peef was sayin about Ivysaur feeling like Dhalisim when you emphasize it's vine reach. I say poision powder = a fireball that Ivy controls space with as well as those vines attacks and vine grabs. I like the idea of PP being more of a charge attack that did some knockback, not just having you stay back and jumping around shooting puff balls in the general area of your enemy.

Even Zelda's fireballs are best used as part of an offensive gameplan and I think poision powder could do the same thing if it sprayed an attack over a swath of area not just be a little fart cloud that lipsticks you. It sounds too limiting or defensive-oriented the way it was presented.

 

[PEEF!]

Zelda Fair and Bair, along with a few other moves are sometimes better used without Lcancels.

 

[9Kplus1]

Ganon's AC Bair is sexy and makes cake

**** l-canceling

 

[Xebenkeck]

do any moves autocancel in melee? I know a ****ton do in Brawl because there is no l-canceling, but did any in melee.

 

[Stevo]

yes, ness' dair in melee for example auto cancels hella early

 

[standardtoaster]

Almost every aerial in melee has an autocancel.

 

[JOE!]

Ah, so there are instances where you wouldn't. I was just curious seeing as even though its a skill barrier, it seemed odd in my head for a barrier to be something that is universally better for everyone with little to no reason to not use the technique, esp when its just a button press.


...after writing that my brain flashed to action commands in Paper Mario, but then again they aren't as arbitrary seeing as they did all sorts of extra stuff. Anyways I'm rambling about an acquired taste.


Poison Powder:

The move is designed to be used both offensively and defensively in my presentation of it, but with a bit more emphasis on defense. The defense comes from how it can make a player react to the cloud, messing with spacing which ivy could then abuse.
The offense works the same way, picture her using it on say, Yoshi's Story. She could spray out a bunch of little PP around the center / platforms as the fight goes on due to the speed, which due to the high traffic will usually result in a lot of bonus damage for ivy. The charged comes into play when her for goes off the edge, for if she spawns a large PP near the edge, in order to recover the for will have to take damage through it, as well as deal with ivy's spacing behind it.

 

[PEEF!]

I'm streaming. Watch my Ivy while talking about Ivy??

www.twitch.tv/peefsmash

 

[JOE!]

At work D:

Will you be on late?

 

[hotdogturtle]

it seemed odd in my head for a barrier to be something that is universally better for everyone with little to no reason to not use the technique, esp when its just a button press.

Why is that odd? It makes sense for a barrier to exist for something that is helpful or advantageous. Odd would be if pressing Z while landing made your character flash green but DIDN'T reduce your lag, because then the barrier would have no (useful) effect regardless of whether you do it or not, making the button press truly pointless.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

do any moves autocancel in melee? I know a ****ton do in Brawl because there is no l-canceling, but did any in melee.

Yeah, all moves start auto canceling sometime inbetween after the hitbox is over and before the move is done, depending on the move. Ness' dair and Mewtwo's nair auto cancel the frame after the hitbox is put away so it makes auto-canceling a lot more useful than l-canceling, especially since they're DJC characters.

 

[I R MarF]

I love it when people say that there isn't a time when you shouldnt l-cancel and its an arbitrary button press, yet no one complains about teching which is fundamentally similar. Teching gives you invicibility, faster recovery on the ground, prevents resets, and can extend your life if you manage to ledge tech, wall tech, or tech a platform. So is there a time when you shouldn't do it? Aside from the occasional tech chase mix up? Which puts you at risk for a jab reset?

Just like L-cancelling gives you offensive advantages, teching gives you defensive advantages. If you don't do em, the other player can punish you.

So guys, lets make both automatic cuz they both dumb.

 

[GHNeko]

Teching can play into the timing of someone's attack/prediction if you tech too much.

Also there are multiple teching options, some which are worse/better than others teching choices.

Teching is not arbitrary.

 

[hotdogturtle]

New topic for discussion: Ivysaur with a sex kick.

 

[I R MarF]

Teching can play into the timing of someone's attack/prediction if you tech too much.

Also there are multiple teching options, some which are worse/better than others teching choices.

Teching is not arbitrary.

Of course teching isn't arbitrary, and neither is L-cancelling. And don't try and act like its some kind of art form. These "multiple options" are really just roll forward, roll back, stand up... and on the ledge/wall its wall jump or fall down.

 

[Strong Badam]

New topic for discussion: Ivysaur with a sex kick.

Shadic
Make it happen

 

[PEEF!]

Anything could replace ivy nair and Id dig it. =D (Still playin him on stream btw)

 

[JOE!]

Why is that odd? It makes sense for a barrier to exist for something that is helpful or advantageous. Odd would be if pressing Z while landing made your character flash green but DIDN'T reduce your lag, because then the barrier would have no (useful) effect regardless of whether you do it or not, making the button press truly pointless.

I meant odd as in the gained effect is arbitrary: wavedashing provides many spacing options and requires a specific input, but you don't always need to WD. Teching is similar but has many options tied to it based on spacing/position, and makes sense as an input since you can trick other players with it depending on patterns, etc. Lcancel simply makes you aerial faster, something that can be done automatically (auto cancel) and have the attack tweaked to be faster due to this being a mod, but is kept an input to keep the player active and there's a handful of aerial out of like the 200 or so that you wouldn't normally Lcancel. It seemed odd to use that as a barrier since nearly across the board there is like 2% of all aerials that you don't always want to Lcancel, as well as how the effect can be changed on the actual frame data/animation.

But that's just my 2cents seeing as it is here to stay due to it already being established.

Edit: moving on, why not make ivy have the helicopter as nair? Act sorta like Marth's nair + slow fall

 

[I R MarF]

I meant odd as in the gained effect is arbitrary: wavedashing provides many spacing options and requires a specific input, but you don't always need to WD. Teching is similar but has many options tied to it based on spacing/position, and makes sense as an input since you can trick other players with it depending on patterns, etc. Lcancel simply makes you aerial faster, something that can be done automatically (auto cancel) and have the attack tweaked to be faster due to this being a mod, but is kept an input to keep the player active and there's a handful of aerial out of like the 200 or so that you wouldn't normally Lcancel. It seemed odd to use that as a barrier since nearly across the board there is like 2% of all aerials that you don't always want to Lcancel, as well as how the effect can be changed on the actual frame data/animation.

But that's just my 2cents seeing as it is here to stay due to it already being established.

Edit: moving on, why not make ivy have the helicopter as nair? Act sorta like Marth's nair + slow fall

Just out of curiousity, do you think l-cancelling, at the very least, serves as a skill gap buffer? Should players be able to drill shine as soon as they pick up the game? Or should there be some kind of execution barrier between newer players and experienced ones for certain techniques.

I think its important that there is some kind of requirement in order to act almost immediately out of your aerial. Smash is, after all, highly based on movement more so than combo oriented games like MvC3 where all aerials have no landing lag.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Or he's lying.

Or I decided "**** arthritis".

 

[NeoZ]

Or I decided "**** arthritis".

Yeah, **** that guy.

 

[9Kplus1]

Peef told me to say that I like the way he plays Softsaur

Spoiler

In all honesty, though, I think that the build Peef is using is great

 

[Stunts]

Though something inside of me dreads to say it, yes I support the Peefsaur. She should be a spacing character, a defensive walling type. Its in her nature, I think.

I wanna hear J say some poetry next time.

 

[Strong Badam]

yea ivysaur is supposed to be really gay

 

[Sir Combee]

Thats a grass type for ya

At least there is no subseeding.... yet....

 

[JOE!]

@Marf:

It does to an extent of: didnt know you could lcancel vs do know you can lcancel. That, and isnt the drill shine just Dair > Shine? You can do that in Barlw lol

Regardless, I guess that scenario would be a case by case basis, like what combinations / techniques specifically need Lcancel to be powerful?

 

[metroid1117]

Of course teching isn't arbitrary, and neither is L-cancelling. And don't try and act like its some kind of art form. These "multiple options" are really just roll forward, roll back, stand up... and on the ledge/wall its wall jump or fall down.

A crucial option you're given when you miss a tech is the ability to do a get-up attack. If your opponent is going for grabs off of a tech-chase (such as a Sheik), you could purposely miss a tech so that they whiff a grab while you're on the ground and then you can possibly get-up attack to regain some momentum. Of course, this is a very risky option because if they use any other option when you miss a tech such as a dash attack, FTilt, USmash, etc., you will get hit and combo'd as though you teched in place (assuming they timed it properly).

A more useful place to miss techs is when getting "platform-chased," in which you are sent onto a platform in the middle of a combo (which I consider different from tech-chasing since it's not on the same plane). For example, when a Fox uses UThrow on a fastfaller (let's say Falco) at high %s below a platform, there's a high chance that the Falco will be able to tech onto the platform and avoid the incoming UAir. However, most Fox players have adapted to this and are now wavelanding onto the platform and following the tech with an USmash. Falco can prevent this by missing the tech and doing the get-up attack as Fox wavelands onto the platform.

@Marf:

It does to an extent of: didnt know you could lcancel vs do know you can lcancel. That, and isnt the drill shine just Dair > Shine? You can do that in Barlw lol

Regardless, I guess that scenario would be a case by case basis, like what combinations / techniques specifically need Lcancel to be powerful?

Any form of aerial shield pressure that involves landing near the opponent requires some sort of lag canceling (auto-cancel, L-cancel, float cancel, etc) in order to be effective. For example, Falcon's strong knee -> jab cannot be shield-grabbed when done properly, as well as Fox/Falco's NAir -> shine or DAir -> shine. If you don't L-cancel, you run the risk of getting shield-grabbed without proper spacing. That being said, truly un-punishable shield pressure with spacies is something that requires frame-perfect precision, considering that players have to time when the aerial hits the shield (so they can fastfall), the shield stun, when they can input the fastfall, and when they can input the L-cancel. This reliance on perfection is something that players like M2K exploit; in this match, for example, you can see how M2K does a slight light shield and angles his shield slightly upward. This changes the amount of shield stun the players undergo and when the shield stun occurs, causes Lucky to miss one fastfall in the middle of his NAir -> shine pillar and get grabbed. While it's hard to tell whether Lucky got punished for missing an L-cancel as well as the fast-fall, the point is that L-canceling is a technique that requires precision, and this precision can (in some cases) be exploited by the person being attacked.

Regardless, we're getting way off the topic of Ivysaur. I'm sort of sad to see another defensively-oriented character like Jigglypuff or (to some extent) Sheik, but I suppose not all characters can be heavily weighed towards offense.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Softysaur is best saur.

I wouldn't lump ivysaur in with Sheik and Jigglypuff since those characters have combos and don't reach 30 feet with vines.

 

[chimpact]

When will diddy be released [did he (get it hehe) get released?]?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Diddy will be released along with everyone else in the final version of the game.

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

@metroid1117
That's actually a really good example. I'm glad to hear an argument for manual l-canceling that's not just "it makes the game harder, thus better."

On-topic: I'm actually interested to see more defensive characters. M is such an offensive game to begin with that seeing characters that go against that trend is interesting.

 

[Jonny Westside]

Idk if this has been implemented but have u guys thought about allowing Ivy to lower its % by pummeling?