Project M Social Thread

[L7Junkie]

Aw, he beat me to it. But yeah, come and watch my awesome Wario!

 

[Octorox]

Here's a visual suggestion. Make Pits wings on UpB glow a warm color like red or orange rather than blue. It would make it more obviously a damaging attack and it would look cooler imo.

 

[CORY]

personally, i like the cool blue/white effect. it fits pit better.

also: currently, can ike hold neutral b indefinitely? i vaguely remember a max time before it just went off in brawl, but i'm spotty on it...

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

people need to stop thinking a character needs compensation for being nerfed lol

I strongly disagree with this statement. first off I thought the idea of this project was to keep the top tiers as they are and then improving everyone else to make them at least viable, this nerf on sheik without a buff to make up for it goes against that basic idea of the project. Further more you r taking a character who is not even considered the best in the game and weakening them while keeping better characters the same as they were. I dont think anyone would argue the fact that sheiks d-throw is a major part of her game, so taken this away while improving everyone else is unfair to the character and the people who play her.

Now i am not going to go as far as to say this is a arbitrary nerf b/c as I said b4 her d-throw was somewhat fundamentally bad, but the idea that u guys r willing to just nerf characters without making up for it sets a bad precedent. Also the idea that u r willing to nerf any non space animal also sets a bad precedent and to me shows a biased (I dont think it is meant to show biased but as a non spacie main its a feeling it gives off). So in conclusion it seems unfair to nerf something as major as sheiks d-throw without helping her make up for what she lost, and the statement I quoted it ridicules unless the character in question is the best in the game both before and after the nerf.

 

[LegendofLink]

Sheik's d-throw wasn't the reason she was good in Melee, it was merely a design flaw that made matchups most likely skewed in Sheik's favor to begin with completely unwinable and ruined several character's viability simply by existing. Nerfing it isn't a nerf to proper Sheik play, as she still has every other attribute that made her good in Melee in addition to the situationaly useful crawl and wall cling. It's not like Sheik's tier placement dropped at all in the PAL version of Melee either, where the throw in question was also nerfed (in fact, I'm fairly sure it's higher).

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I am not saying it was the one thing that made her good, but it clearly helped her out in many many MU's. Also if u recall i am not against taking it away I am against taking it away without giving her something to help make up for it to some degree.

Remember u might want to down play d-throws importance but i could site matches where it clearly made a diff. Like when amsah beat armada.

Also while its true her tier placement in pal did not drop, i want to remind u that all the other top tiers also got nerfed, in fact the only top tier who did not get nerfed was jiggs who in pal is ranked number 2.

 

[Revven]

I strongly disagree with this statement. first off I thought the idea of this project was to keep the top tiers as they are and then improving everyone else to make them at least viable, this nerf on sheik without a buff to make up for it goes against that basic idea of the project. Further more you r taking a character who is not even considered the best in the game and weakening them while keeping better characters the same as they were. I dont think anyone would argue the fact that sheiks d-throw is a major part of her game, so taken this away while improving everyone else is unfair to the character and the people who play her.

Now i am not going to go as far as to say this is a arbitrary nerf b/c as I said b4 her d-throw was somewhat fundamentally bad, but the idea that u guys r willing to just nerf characters without making up for it sets a bad precedent. Also the idea that u r willing to nerf any non space animal also sets a bad precedent and to me shows a biased (I dont think it is meant to show biased but as a non spacie main its a feeling it gives off). So in conclusion it seems unfair to nerf something as major as sheiks d-throw without helping her make up for what she lost, and the statement I quoted it ridicules unless the character in question is the best in the game both before and after the nerf.

She WAS compensated, it is just nothing that is incredibly noteworthy. Sheik is still Sheik and will always be Sheik and by that will always be better than most characters even with PAL Dthrow.

NTSC Dthrow with a KBG nerf was in the game for over the last 2 years. Do you think we carelessly made this decision? Much less, put PAL Dthrow without putting something in to somewhat offset it? (Note: somewhat).

However, do realize that trading off buffs/nerfs is something that was practiced in B+ and was not, at all, 100% foolproof. It was an overused practice on every character and got way out of hand. Thinking that trading off buffs/nerfs is 100% failsafe is naive as it is not at all the perfect way to balance a single character.

 

[Yeroc]

We are not going to make a prolific change like this without carefully considering any compensatory buffs if we decide they're necessary. That said, in a way, Sheik did get a buff. Zelda.

 

[Strong Badam]

from all the experience that the majority of us have?

Taking a swing, ike 60-40 v DK, maybe worse. He can outspace, edgeguard (with almost everything) and DK has a hard time sweetspotting. He pretty much outmatches him in everything

lol what is this ****? DK has trouble sweetspotting?

60-40 DK

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

She WAS compensated, it is just nothing that is incredibly noteworthy. Sheik is still Sheik and will always be Sheik and by that will always be better than most characters even with PAL Dthrow.

NTSC Dthrow with a KBG nerf was in the game for over the last 2 years. Do you think we carelessly made this decision? Much less, put PAL Dthrow without putting something in to somewhat offset it? (Note: somewhat).

However, do realize that trading off buffs/nerfs is something that was practiced in B+ and was not, at all, 100% foolproof. It was an overused practice on every character and got way out of hand. Thinking that trading off buffs/nerfs is 100% failsafe is naive as it is not at all the perfect way to balance a single character.

Well in my original post i did ask if something was added and no one said anything besides crawl and wall cling, so what else was added? or is this one of those secrets the public is not privy to atm

Also i was not promoting trading buffs/nerfs at all, i was saying that if a nerf is given which negatively affects a character and could affect how good they r over all its only fair that something is added to offset this. I in fact am not against nerfs at all and am far more for the idea of raising other characters up to a higher level not bringing top characters down.

note(i am not even saying the thing added has to be equal to what was nerfed, I am just saying nerfs with nothing to help make up for them for a character who is not the best seems like a bad direction to take)

edit: i dont consider zelda a buff just b/c saying its a buff would mean sheiks mains would also have to pick up a new character they may not want to play just to be a better character.

Also i do have faith in you people and what u do and I am sure this was not some quickly made decision but that does not mean I wont speak up and question what is going on. I just want a well explained answer to put my sheik worries at ease

 

[Cero]

Slightly off-topic:

How come in Brawl, Sheik and Zelda's transformation takes longer than in Melee?

I know it's because of the loading times but I'm still curious because isn't the Wii supposed to have a faster processing speed than the GameCube?

 

[Yeroc]

On the gamecube, the character files are loaded together, resulting in a static switch time. In Brawl, alternate characters aren't loaded until they're switched to. A symptom of a rushed game, without focus on such details or their inherent implications on gameplay. Personally I find it annoying to the point of infuriating. But the more Zelda/Sheik files you have on the SD card, the closer to static it seems to become. Using moveset/animation/model files for all the costumes seems to help a lot, so that's the recommended recourse.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

On the gamecube, the character files are loaded together, resulting in a static switch time. In Brawl, alternate characters aren't loaded until they're switched to. A symptom of a rushed game, without focus on such details or their inherent implications on gameplay.

I thought Melee was the game that was rushed?

 

[Giygacoal]

But the more Zelda/Sheik files you have on the SD card, the closer to static it seems to become. Using moveset/animation/model files for all the costumes seems to help a lot, so that's the recommended recourse.

If this is true, then perhaps the public builds should include all of the outfits on pacs by default.

 

[Cero]

On the gamecube, the character files are loaded together, resulting in a static switch time. In Brawl, alternate characters aren't loaded until they're switched to. A symptom of a rushed game, without focus on such details or their inherent implications on gameplay. Personally I find it annoying to the point of infuriating. But the more Zelda/Sheik files you have on the SD card, the closer to static it seems to become. Using moveset/animation/model files for all the costumes seems to help a lot, so that's the recommended recourse.

You can't make a code that would allow both characters to be loaded together like in Melee?
... It's probably hard-coded or something.

Oh, and I'm sorry if this may seem obvious to some but I have to ask. Why does putting more files for Sheik and Zelda on the SD card remedy the transformation times?

 

[Wavebuster]

You can't make a code that would allow both characters to be loaded together like in Melee?
... It's probably hard-coded or something.

Oh, and I'm sorry if this may seem obvious to some but I have to ask. Why does putting more files for Sheik and Zelda on the SD card remedy the transformation times?

SD loading those files is faster than loading them from the disc, and even USB loading. It just is.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I thought Melee was the game that was rushed?

They were both rushed (and no arguments please; there's evidence in both games for things that were rushed/unfinished due to time constraints).

Although Melee's release was never delayed; they just rushed to finish everything by the release date. Brawl was delayed several times because they had so much stuff to add, and they STILL didn't finish in time.

 

[Cero]

SD loading those files is faster than loading them from the disc, and even USB loading. It just is.

Oh, okay. That makes sense.

It's amazing how we have to resort to things like that just to fix the mess that we inherited from Brawl.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I remember reading something like if in Brawl, you cycle through all of Zelda's costumes on the CSS, in game it takes longer for her to transform than if you simply selected the default costume for zelda and press start. Not sure if that is true, but i remember reading that somewhere. Silly Skri

 

[Shadic]

The game starts loading character files the second you select them on the CSS. Model included.

So changing colors a bunch before moving on to stage select (and starting the match) would indeed increase the load time.

It was mentioned on Smashbros.com

 

[Jonny Westside]

I have a question about how you(The BR team) operates. What exactly is the routine for making changes, testing, and feedback? Weird/dumb question I know.

 

[Ecks]

What's really funny is that on Zelda's short video after beating classic mode, you'll see her transform in less than a second. I just pictured Sakurai going "problem? " when I saw that.

 

[phurgawtin]

Sheik has gotten the most considerable buff of any character in P:M... her Down+B.

 

[GuruKid]

I have a question about how you(The BR team) operates. What exactly is the routine for making changes, testing, and feedback? Weird/dumb question I know.

Not a dumb question at all.

We simply put out experimental builds of characters we work on (separate from our main build), and have playtesters try them out and provide feedback for how it affects gameplay, with usually extensive debate on the validity of such changes. If the builds receive overall positive ratings, we keep it and expand upon it. If the changes are received negatively overall, we either scrap the idea completely or try to tweak it to meet the criteria.

Each character(especially the Brawl-exclusive ones) usually has a team of several (2 or 3) people working on him/her, though any project member is free to provide ideas and work on any character.

Experimental builds undergo extensive playtesting, debate, tweaking, and re-tweaking before officially merging into the main build.

 

[Sneak8288]

So im here at rom 4 and im kinda surprised to say that crush is actually pretty good lol

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

They were both rushed (and no arguments please; there's evidence in both games for things that were rushed/unfinished due to time constraints).

Although Melee's release was never delayed; they just rushed to finish everything by the release date. Brawl was delayed several times because they had so much stuff to add, and they STILL didn't finish in time.

That makes sense then. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Just wondering, what characters do you guys not really have a plan in place for? I know Ivysaur hasn't gotten much work, and as I understand it you guys aren't 100% sure where you're going with her, but are there any other characters like that? Just wondering if I should dump some ideas on you guys.


Also YES ONTARIO FINALLY HAS A BR MEMBER, HELLZ YEAH

 

[Rikana]

I dunno why I lol'd at sneak's comment.

 

[hotdogturtle]

So im here at rom 4 and im kinda surprised to say that crush is actually pretty good lol

I first played him at a tournament in Massachusetts a couple months ago and I swear everyone was saying the same thing about him.

 

[MonkUnit]

Project M was well received at SMASH! Minnesota. The videos of the tournament should be up within the week or so. Results thread will also be up soon.

For those of you near Minnesota, there will be another SMASH! Minnesota in January.

 

[Vigilante]

Lol, Rikana made a much better app this time so it was no wonder he got accepted.

I'm looking foorward to working with you.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Has anything been done to Ganondorf since the demo? I was playing around with him today and his side-b makes for some mad salty combos.

 

[JOE!]

He got his hair did

 

[Rikana]

Ganon didn't receive much change I believe. The only thing that altered his gameplay is landing detection.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

He got his fair did

Fix'd

 

[Stevo]

So im here at rom 4 and im kinda surprised to say that crush is actually pretty good lol

Crush is the future of smash.

 

[MaxThunder]

I think it should be "he got his hair/fair done"... not did...

 

[felipe_9595]

i have a suggestion for lucas's up b. Make him go into helpless if L is pressed in the air, but dont cancel his Pk thunder.

Ugh engrish, let me upload a video to show what i am talking about xD

 

[hotdogturtle]

i have a suggestion for lucas's up b. Make him go into helpless if L is pressed in the air, but dont cancel his Pk thunder.

Ugh engrish, let me upload a video to show what i am talking about xD

You mean make him instantly going into specialfall by pressing the shield button, but the PK Thunder keeps moving even while you're falling?

 

[Xebenkeck]

Lucas- I like that forward flip kick(dair?) I saw in Sniperfox's stream. Same with whatever change you guys made to his down-B.

Not really sold on Bair though. I played/play Lucas in the demo pretty exclusivly I will say I did find many uses for his old Bair. Maybe just bcuz I played him in vBrawl aswell im used to the hitbox, but I felt it was pretty good for combo's and spacing(it covers his backside pretty well lol). Also how cool would lucas be if he had a front flip kick AND a back flip kick I dunno just my 2cents.

EDIT also, whats with the upB?