Project M Social Thread Gold

[GaretHax]

Ohh, is that what it does? I see the url there, yeah. I'm still skeptical. I mean when I was a kid I never ****ed with the website obviously (was the net even accessible/practical to most families when smash 64 first came out? #dumbquestionmaybe).

So what you're saying is, Z-cancelling was a consciously programmed mechanic for skilled players, but just wasn't demonstrated in the tutorial videos or given in the game case booklet with the rest of the control nuances? But it WAS on the "official" website in 1999 in the wide web's toddlerhood, and entitled 'Smooth Landing'?

Dude I mean. Idunno man. Maybe though.

You can't really be in the middle of programming a game engine and accidentally write exact frame requirements and timings to half landing-lag when a specific button press occurs. That isn't something that really happens in programming, when something is this blatantly deliberate and has such a clear function and purpose, it was intentionally included in the game.
On top of that I believe game and watch has hardcoded properties in two of his aerials that specifically prevent them from being L-cancelled. Plus the change in lag reduction from 100% to 50% between 64 and melee speaks for itself.

 

[Empyrean]

We eagerly await the return of your horribly formatted posts your return

 

[Bazkip]

You can't really be in the middle of programming a game engine and accidentally write exact frame requirements and timings to half landing-lag when a specific button press occurs. That isn't something that really happens in programming, when something is this blatantly deliberate and has such a clear function and purpose, it was intentionally included in the game.
On top of that I believe game and watch has hardcoded properties in two of his aerials that specifically prevent them from being L-cancelled. Plus the change in lag reduction from 100% to 50% between 64 and melee speaks for itself.

Three of Game & Watch's aerials can't be l-cancelled (bair, uair and nair). That may have actually been by mistake. But otherwise yes, everything you said is correct.

 

[CORY]

iirc, it's because (as garet said) they're coded differently. like, they're actually coded as special attacks, so they can have landing animation hitboxes, as opposed to aerial attacks. the melee team either couldn't or didn't think it was worth the time to fix them up another way.

 

[Bazkip]

iirc, it's because (as garet said) they're coded differently. like, they're actually coded as special attacks, so they can have landing animation hitboxes, as opposed to aerial attacks. the melee team either couldn't or didn't think it was worth the time to fix them up another way.

But his dair, which has landing hitboxes, can be l-cancelled.

 

[CORY]

hrmmm... that's odd, then.

 

[standardtoaster]

for whatever reason those 3 aerial action IDs are not the same as standard aerial attacks.

melee ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Kati]

How can I look at game models (like the swords)? In BrawlBox? If so, which files? pls

Edit: with the textures on

Fit(character)00--->model data 0 --->3d models-----> right click on Fit(character)00 and select preview. There's a vertical pop out bar on the left that lets one toggle textures and models (helpful when previewing Samus for instance as the preview shows the morphball overlapping her torso).

if you aren't seeing textures right away, the character might have a reflective mask that has to be toggled off (again Samus has this, but it can also be seen on Ganon's chest plate and boots).

 

[MLGF]

This video reminded me of Anita Sarkeesian

 

[Soft Serve]

rant incomming

Spoiler

Oh my god I'm so sick of the ****ing diddy salt. Its so frustrating.
Its one of those things in games that get up-dated where you're afraid to try to bring out a characters full potential because it would be seen as op and then nerfed.
Diddy was one of the most actively developed characters since 2.6 because we had like 12 people constantly labbing and meta-gaming and discussing what his game plan and objectives should be and how to control neutral and optimize punishes on specific characters. Even in 2.5-2.6 when people thought he was bad, he was still one of the most developed characters. for months we had Disqo, guru, Abstract Logic, Bamsey/Nausicca, Guy, Me, spider mad, Arcalyth, Luck, and then oracle and player 1 sometimes, just constantly discussing and optimizing EVERYTHING. like just ****ing read this thread, even a bit, its 30+ pages of dense posts and labwork. We had a fantastic metagame baseline, then 2.6b and then 3.0 dropped and diddy got some buffs in the places where he needed them, and then some more where he didn't, and more players like Seagul joe and Junebug picked him up and advanced him even further, and put this well developed character into a metagame full of undeveloped jank, showcased on the most popular PM stream, VGBC.
yeah he's a simple character which is why he was easy to figure out and optimize, but the amount of lab-work and discussion done on Diddy makes other character's forums pale in comparison.
Ive long since dropped Diddy, mostly because his punish game didn't interest me enough, but partially because all the salt towards the character and it's players was getting to me. Its still horribly frustrating that because of the mind-set that most gamers have now adays in the environment where they can just cry OP and get it nerfed ( I blame MMORPGS, mostly WoW, and Moba's for this mindset mostly), diddy takes the brunt of complaints.
The worst is when people on these boards use the fact that someone plays diddy as "proof" that the player is bad and only gets by using a broken and easy character, and **** like that. I dont get angry very often but **** like this makes my blood boil. Yeah he's a strong character, but he's strong because he is well developed on a fundamentals level, and his advanced techs are for more minute situations and traps.
It kills me when I see people suggesting to take away a banana, make them dissapear on shield (like smash 4, but unlike every other item in the game) AND nerf his killing options, because who needs a neutral game or kill potential, right? I just want to scream "get better, learn the counterplay, and just play the ****ing game instead of complaining."

I'll probably get some flak for this but I'm not denying that diddy has more than he needs. I just want the saltly people to shut up and stop trying to make him un-playable. I'm glad we never got to show how stupid non-tripping bananas were as a concept, when they sent at semi-spike angles and you could kill falco with only one near the ledge at low percents. those bananas were far more toxic for both diddy and the game (he couldn't follow up because they got sent so far away when they teched, but it also gave him the most ******** keep-away game. in that patch, his dair, fair, uair, dash attack, and f-smash were all worse so to win he actually just had to camp and tech chase to wrack up %, then land a grab and go for the up-throw kill throw which was stronger then than now)

Like god damn
You guys can ignore this if you want, i'm putting it in spoilers. I just ****ing hate people that cry for nerfs all the time. Git Gud

 

[Bazkip]

Only way to fix Diddy is to remove him from the game

 

[KayB]

I can't claim whether Diddy needs nerfs or not since I'm not a top player, but Diddy is easily one of if not the most frustrating characters to play against for the sole fact that he limits me from doing the one thing I love in smash: moving.

 

[MLGF]

YOU GUYS HAVE BABY SQUIRREL **** PROBLEMS!
I HAVE ELEPHANT **** WORRIES

I MAIN IKE
I HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE LINK MATCHUP
And nothing is more painful then that, your Diddy salt is nothing on the pain that matchup brings.

Unless you play a mid to low tier in any other smash, then chances are you know something worse.

Waaaaaaahhhhh

 

[Warsaint777]

We eagerly await the return of your horribly formatted posts your return

I never said I was beautiful.

You can't really be in the middle of programming a game engine and accidentally write exact frame requirements and timings to half landing-lag when a specific button press occurs. That isn't something that really happens in programming, when something is this blatantly deliberate and has such a clear function and purpose, it was intentionally included in the game.
On top of that I believe game and watch has hardcoded properties in two of his aerials that specifically prevent them from being L-cancelled. Plus the change in lag reduction from 100% to 50% between 64 and melee speaks for itself.

But isn't it possible that these like, suspiciously mathematically neat frame equivalencies or whatever was still just an unforeseen result of certain coding?

I have to say, I'm still probably wrong and you (guys) are still probably right, but it adds up very poorly. I wish I just had one of the developers from either game just say 'Hai, Sou Desune' when I asked if they put in recovery cancellations on purpose.

It raises the question then, if it were on purpose, why the two/three following installations do NOT have trigger-finger button recovery cancellation. What kind of asshole motive would deter them from reimplementing it when all it did was speed up the game in exciting ways and increase the learning curve without breaking the game?

 

[Kati]

Wep wep, indeed.

 

[arcticfox8]

Why are we ******** about Diddy when we could be ******** about Lucas, anyway?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Waaaaaaahhhhh

Though of this immediately:

Smooth Criminal

 

[Player -0]

I never said I was beautiful.



But isn't it possible that these like, suspiciously mathematically neat frame equivalencies or whatever was still just an unforeseen result of certain coding?

I have to say, I'm still probably wrong and you (guys) are still probably right, but it adds up very poorly. I wish I just had one of the developers from either game just say 'Hai, Sou Desune' when I asked if they put in recovery cancellations on purpose.

It raises the question then, if it were on purpose, why the two/three following installations do NOT have trigger-finger button recovery cancellation. What kind of ******* motive would deter them from reimplementing it when all it did was speed up the game in exciting ways and increase the learning curve without breaking the game?

Casuals? I'm 98% sure these questions have been highly speculated about, if not answered before.

_____________
I played vs. Nazo's Diddy a bit ago and it was pretty cool. TLink vs. Diddy is awesome. Especially since his throw animation doesn't suck. Diddy's F-Smash killing at 50% was pretty sad face though. Granted it was like, Yoshi's Story and by the ledge with only moderate DI. Fair Yolo completely wins vs. Up-B for TLink . I don't think he's broken he just needs some stuff toned down.

 

[Warsaint777]

Casuals? I'm 98% sure these questions have been highly speculated about, if not answered before.

_____________
I played vs. Nazo's Diddy a bit ago and it was pretty cool. TLink vs. Diddy is awesome. Especially since his throw animation doesn't suck. Diddy's F-Smash killing at 50% was pretty sad face though. Granted it was like, Yoshi's Story and by the ledge with only moderate DI. Fair Yolo completely wins vs. Up-B for TLink . I don't think he's broken he just needs some stuff toned down.

I have no doubt.

Doesn't answer the question remotely though. The existence of cancels would be a non issue for any casual smash player.

I still think it was an accident both times. Color me crazy / incorrigible.

 

[GaretHax]

I have no doubt.

Doesn't answer the question remotely though. The existence of cancels would be a non issue for any casual smash player.

I still think it was an accident both times. Color me crazy / incorrigible.

That isn't how coding works, this isn't some missing variable or accidental extreme value, or bizzarre physics-engine breaking scenario, this is a specific reference to a specific action, at a specific time, under specific criteria. You don't accidentally call multiple references, check for multiple flags and then dynamically change values across the board on accident. It just isn't a plausible bug. Also I believe Nintendo and Sakurai have both come out and said L and Z canceling were intentional, but didn't match their vision for the series. Wes also claims to have spoken with a rep on the phone who confirmed their intent, on top of all that there were L-cancelled aerials and even one wavedash in early trailers for Melee, though I don't recall the source for that one.

 

[shairn]

Casuals don't like L-canceling because they're too lazy to get used to it and they get creamed by people who aren't.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i dont like lcancelling because im lazy and i lose to people who do it

 

[shairn]

>Projected delivery date for my sm4sh copy: 10-17 oct

Oh no everyone will be tired of the game by then

 

[KuroganeHammer]

maybe you should get express post

 

[Warsaint777]

I imagine this has been brought up before as well, but do you guys think PMBR will eventually go the same route as LoL and just make their own community-driven fighter inspired by Smash?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

rant incomming

Spoiler

Oh my god I'm so sick of the ****ing diddy salt. Its so frustrating.
Its one of those things in games that get up-dated where you're afraid to try to bring out a characters full potential because it would be seen as op and then nerfed.
Diddy was one of the most actively developed characters since 2.6 because we had like 12 people constantly labbing and meta-gaming and discussing what his game plan and objectives should be and how to control neutral and optimize punishes on specific characters. Even in 2.5-2.6 when people thought he was bad, he was still one of the most developed characters. for months we had Disqo, guru, Abstract Logic, Bamsey/Nausicca, Guy, Me, spider mad, Arcalyth, Luck, and then oracle and player 1 sometimes, just constantly discussing and optimizing EVERYTHING. like just ****ing read this thread, even a bit, its 30+ pages of dense posts and labwork. We had a fantastic metagame baseline, then 2.6b and then 3.0 dropped and diddy got some buffs in the places where he needed them, and then some more where he didn't, and more players like Seagul joe and Junebug picked him up and advanced him even further, and put this well developed character into a metagame full of undeveloped jank, showcased on the most popular PM stream, VGBC.
yeah he's a simple character which is why he was easy to figure out and optimize, but the amount of lab-work and discussion done on Diddy makes other character's forums pale in comparison.
Ive long since dropped Diddy, mostly because his punish game didn't interest me enough, but partially because all the salt towards the character and it's players was getting to me. Its still horribly frustrating that because of the mind-set that most gamers have now adays in the environment where they can just cry OP and get it nerfed ( I blame MMORPGS, mostly WoW, and Moba's for this mindset mostly), diddy takes the brunt of complaints.
The worst is when people on these boards use the fact that someone plays diddy as "proof" that the player is bad and only gets by using a broken and easy character, and **** like that. I dont get angry very often but **** like this makes my blood boil. Yeah he's a strong character, but he's strong because he is well developed on a fundamentals level, and his advanced techs are for more minute situations and traps.
It kills me when I see people suggesting to take away a banana, make them dissapear on shield (like smash 4, but unlike every other item in the game) AND nerf his killing options, because who needs a neutral game or kill potential, right? I just want to scream "get better, learn the counterplay, and just play the ****ing game instead of complaining."

I'll probably get some flak for this but I'm not denying that diddy has more than he needs. I just want the saltly people to shut up and stop trying to make him un-playable. I'm glad we never got to show how stupid non-tripping bananas were as a concept, when they sent at semi-spike angles and you could kill falco with only one near the ledge at low percents. those bananas were far more toxic for both diddy and the game (he couldn't follow up because they got sent so far away when they teched, but it also gave him the most ******** keep-away game. in that patch, his dair, fair, uair, dash attack, and f-smash were all worse so to win he actually just had to camp and tech chase to wrack up %, then land a grab and go for the up-throw kill throw which was stronger then than now)

Like god damn
You guys can ignore this if you want, i'm putting it in spoilers. I just ****ing hate people that cry for nerfs all the time. Git Gud

Stop playing top 3 character then, bruh

@ Player -0 do you not know the secret of diddy fsmash?? If I remember correctly, CC the first hit and sheild whatevs left. Never die.

 

[shairn]

maybe you should get express post

I thought of that at first, but then I had the option to get free shipping
I can't pass up free shipping

 

[Professor Gravy]

I can't claim whether Diddy needs nerfs or not since I'm not a top player, but Diddy is easily one of if not the most frustrating characters to play against for the sole fact that he limits me from doing the one thing I love in smash: moving.

good movement is the key to good item control. if you take some time to practice you can seamlessly incorporate your item control into your movement if you ever what to be where a banana is just wave dash to pick it up and use it

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

When you guys get your copies of Smash 4 head to Anthers Ladder

http://ladder.anthrzy.com/netplay

For now you can challenge people to smash 4 friendlies and soon he is going to implement a smash 4 ladder

 

[Empyrean]

Protein synthesis is ****ing amazing. How in the world did this come to be??

Er...I mean Smash 3ds hype woohoo I don't have a 3ds

 

[Comeback Kid]

Everybody gets one Empy.

 

[Warsaint777]

@ Bazkip how often do you mess with melee dorf these days?

edit: Also nobody bit at my ? about PM ever transitioning to their own game. I require acknowledgement and love!!

 

[KayB]

good movement is the key to good item control. if you take some time to practice you can seamlessly incorporate your item control into your movement if you ever what to be where a banana is just wave dash to pick it up and use it

Oh no I have no problem with the item play.

It's just when my opponent is better than me at it, which is usually the case because they're playing Diddy. Then I'm essentially back to square one.

 

[Player -0]

Stop playing top 3 character then, bruh

@ Player -0 do you not know the secret of diddy fsmash?? If I remember correctly, CC the first hit and sheild whatevs left. Never die.

I know that, it was conveniently spaced so I would only get rekt by the second hit though. Nazo OP.

 

[Bazkip]

@ Bazkip how often do you mess with melee dorf these days?

I don't really, if I have the choice I play PM.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Let this sink into your souls and I will pray for you along with smashboards if you decide to download Smash 4 3ds game tonight.

EDIT: Also the Yipes vs Sanford Kelly FT100 match is slowly being uploaded as we speak.

 

[Warsaint777]

I don't really, if I have the choice I play PM.

How much tourney action did you see back in the day in melee using him? Was it rough? Did you go against many a-tiers?

edit: I have no idea how that image got there

 

[Saito]

Let this sink into your souls and I will pray for your if you decide to download this game tonight.

Probably one of my favorite zelda songs.

I've fallen asleep to it before pretty comfortably.

And I'll be going to pick mine up at midnight because I like physical copies.

 

[Vashimus]

I like Theophany's for being so much eerier and depressing.

Also thanks Gamegenie. High level Marvel 2 is still such a joy to watch.

 

[Soft Serve]

Everybody gets one Empy.

Some people get 7